Endless duels - Optional modes to find a winner

IxskullzxI

Bislobo wrote: »

At the current state, duels between players with similar skill level will never end, unless one gets bored or tired.
There is healing/sustain/potions to cover poor play.
One easy way to solve this is to implement "Combat Fatigue".
WTH is that? It's a debuff that increases over time. The values can vary but here is my suggestion:
After 1 minute of duel duration, players skills start to cost 30% more.
After 1 minute and 30 seconds, 60% more.
After 2 minutes 90% more.
And so on...
This way, in the end it will be skill and good resource management dictating the outcome of the battle.
Not wife aggro or bio breaks.

How about instead of more bandaid fixes they actually just, idk, maybe balance their game? Hell of a concept, I know.

altemriel

Qbiken wrote: »

WIll be adding so many people to ignore list once all randoms want to dual you.....

maybe you will miss some nice duels with stranger like that , you never know who you meet randomly

Qbiken

altemriel wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

WIll be adding so many people to ignore list once all randoms want to dual you.....

maybe you will miss some nice duels with stranger like that , you never know who you meet randomly

Point taken

altemriel

Tyrion87 wrote: »

Bislobo wrote: »

At the current state, duels between players with similar skill level will never end, unless one gets bored or tired.

Or unless one of them is magicka, and the other one is stamina. That fight will end really fast...

might happen too that there will be some magicka user with a better build than the stamina user , but generally yes

Bislobo

IxskullzxI wrote: »

Bislobo wrote: »

At the current state, duels between players with similar skill level will never end, unless one gets bored or tired.
There is healing/sustain/potions to cover poor play.
One easy way to solve this is to implement "Combat Fatigue".
WTH is that? It's a debuff that increases over time. The values can vary but here is my suggestion:
After 1 minute of duel duration, players skills start to cost 30% more.
After 1 minute and 30 seconds, 60% more.
After 2 minutes 90% more.
And so on...
This way, in the end it will be skill and good resource management dictating the outcome of the battle.
Not wife aggro or bio breaks.

How about instead of more bandaid fixes they actually just, idk, maybe balance their game? Hell of a concept, I know.

That would be better of course. But sadly we will not see many balance changes with one tamriel...

Snape2255

Tyrion87 wrote: »

Bislobo wrote: »

At the current state, duels between players with similar skill level will never end, unless one gets bored or tired.

Or unless one of them is magicka, and the other one is stamina. That fight will end really fast...

I was having issues fighting a friend's Stam DK on my Stam DK etc., switched over to my Ice Staff Magicka NB and after a prolonged fight beat him. Magicka users can sometimes get the upper hand (Y)

Swindy

altemriel wrote: »

nooo!! this is not a good idea! what is wrong with an endless duel? If the two find out that they are similarly good, they can either continue, just for the fun of fighting together, or they can just cancel the duel!!!

I see nothing wrong with that!

No offense meant to anyone here...

I have (among other toons) a Templar.
She is, 1v1, not indestructible, but (latency/load screens/drop outs here in Australia not withstanding) very difficult to put down.
That being said, she isn't the greatest killer in 1v1 either.
Many duels (not on PTS) end with one or both of us slapping our faces, or dropping in a mock death of exhaustion through the "tie" of 10-15 minutes of button mashing, potion sculling, resource managing...acknowledging one another, and traveling off to find other opponents/challenges.
Why is a winner & loser in any way a pre-requisite of a duel?
Sometimes, 2 players &/or their toons are just equal 1v1.

So yeah, I'm with this guy I quoted...sometimes things ARE just equal, and that's ok by me.

Duukar

My buddy and I on our 2 DKs ran into a Mag Templar last night. We had him constantly 30% heal debuffed and could not kill him. We tried for about 2-3 minutes then I said lets just go.

2v1 and we are both geared and experienced killing machines.

Soo much fun (cancer)

anitajoneb17_ESO

Swindy wrote: »

altemriel wrote: »

nooo!! this is not a good idea! what is wrong with an endless duel? If the two find out that they are similarly good, they can either continue, just for the fun of fighting together, or they can just cancel the duel!!!

I see nothing wrong with that!

No offense meant to anyone here...

I have (among other toons) a Templar.
She is, 1v1, not indestructible, but (latency/load screens/drop outs here in Australia not withstanding) very difficult to put down.
That being said, she isn't the greatest killer in 1v1 either.
Many duels (not on PTS) end with one or both of us slapping our faces, or dropping in a mock death of exhaustion through the "tie" of 10-15 minutes of button mashing, potion sculling, resource managing...acknowledging one another, and traveling off to find other opponents/challenges.
Why is a winner & loser in any way a pre-requisite of a duel?
Sometimes, 2 players &/or their toons are just equal 1v1.

So yeah, I'm with this guy I quoted...sometimes things ARE just equal, and that's ok by me.

Agreed. Many 1v1 sports have ties and that's ok (soccer, chess...).

STEVIL

uhh ok so help me see the problem.

Situation.
Sometimes say when two players with tanky builds choose to fight their duels will last a really really really long time and may work into a stalemate..

Currently, if they both find it enjoyable and continue and choose to continue fighting the fight goes on.
Currently if either of them decides "this isnt fun" and just stops then they get killed and duel over.
Currently if either of them decides "this isn;t fun" they just walk out of the "ring" for an instant count out duel over.

And to FIX the "problem" of "players can choose to continue their duels or not whenever they want" you propose changing the pvp rules or somehow making duels combat rules different from pvp rules? You want certain dueling lengths to be somehow eliminated de jure for those who like them?

BRogueNZ

Bislobo wrote: »

At the current state, duels between players with similar skill level will never end, unless one gets bored or tired.
There is healing/sustain/potions to cover poor play.
One easy way to solve this is to implement "Combat Fatigue".
WTH is that? It's a debuff that increases over time. The values can vary but here is my suggestion:
After 1 minute of duel duration, players skills start to cost 30% more.
After 1 minute and 30 seconds, 60% more.
After 2 minutes 90% more.
And so on...
This way, in the end it will be skill and good resource management dictating the outcome of the battle.
Not wife aggro or bio breaks.

how is that going to help if they are both suffer from the same debuff? can't see that speeding things up much. I guess eventually someones going to forfeit.

Beardimus

Id love a dual to last ages. Right now I find I either kill them.outright or more often than not I'm stunned / feared / dead outright haha!!!

Beardimus

So in duals are you scaled? I.e. If a CP200 Duals a 561?

altemriel

Beardimus wrote: »

So in duals are you scaled? I.e. If a CP200 Duals a 561?

good question, I think there was something in the PTS patch notes, that some Battle Spirit is active during duels, but I am not sure what was meant by that - battle leveling like in IC or Cyro or Wrothgar?

anitajoneb17_ESO

altemriel wrote: »

Beardimus wrote: »

So in duals are you scaled? I.e. If a CP200 Duals a 561?

good question, I think there was something in the PTS patch notes, that some Battle Spirit is active during duels, but I am not sure what was meant by that - battle leveling like in IC or Cyro or Wrothgar?

Cyro battle spirit. So they said at PAX West. Which, I believe, is the same as IC battle spirit, but different from Wrothgar battle levelling.

altemriel

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

altemriel wrote: »

Beardimus wrote: »

So in duals are you scaled? I.e. If a CP200 Duals a 561?

good question, I think there was something in the PTS patch notes, that some Battle Spirit is active during duels, but I am not sure what was meant by that - battle leveling like in IC or Cyro or Wrothgar?

Cyro battle spirit. So they said at PAX West. Which, I believe, is the same as IC battle spirit, but different from Wrothgar battle levelling.

wait, what is the difference there? I did not know that were different things

could you please explain more?

Psilent

Bislobo wrote: »

At the current state, duels between players with similar skill level will never end, unless one gets bored or tired.
There is healing/sustain/potions to cover poor play.
One easy way to solve this is to implement "Combat Fatigue".
WTH is that? It's a debuff that increases over time. The values can vary but here is my suggestion:
After 1 minute of duel duration, players skills start to cost 30% more.
After 1 minute and 30 seconds, 60% more.
After 2 minutes 90% more.
And so on...
This way, in the end it will be skill and good resource management dictating the outcome of the battle.
Not wife aggro or bio breaks.

Disable CP for duels.

altemriel

Psilent wrote: »

Bislobo wrote: »

At the current state, duels between players with similar skill level will never end, unless one gets bored or tired.
There is healing/sustain/potions to cover poor play.
One easy way to solve this is to implement "Combat Fatigue".
WTH is that? It's a debuff that increases over time. The values can vary but here is my suggestion:
After 1 minute of duel duration, players skills start to cost 30% more.
After 1 minute and 30 seconds, 60% more.
After 2 minutes 90% more.
And so on...
This way, in the end it will be skill and good resource management dictating the outcome of the battle.
Not wife aggro or bio breaks.

Disable CP for duels.

nope

L2P

Bislobo

STEVIL wrote: »

uhh ok so help me see the problem.

Situation.
Sometimes say when two players with tanky builds choose to fight their duels will last a really really really long time and may work into a stalemate..

Currently, if they both find it enjoyable and continue and choose to continue fighting the fight goes on.
Currently if either of them decides "this isnt fun" and just stops then they get killed and duel over.
Currently if either of them decides "this isn;t fun" they just walk out of the "ring" for an instant count out duel over.

And to FIX the "problem" of "players can choose to continue their duels or not whenever they want" you propose changing the pvp rules or somehow making duels combat rules different from pvp rules? You want certain dueling lengths to be somehow eliminated de jure for those who like them?

This could function as a toggle, and it's just a suggestion for discussion... To see how everyone feels about long duels. I see that there is a lot of people that enjoy them. So fine, let's keep things how they are. But for people who want to find a winner in organized tournaments, we could use some options to put player skills to test. The damage buff suggested by @Sentinel is also nice.

Sentinel wrote: »

Here's an idea, not my own, but I don't remember who to source it to:

An option for a duel that, the longer it lasts, the more damage each opponent deals. No matter how tanky you are, there will be a point when you can be killed. If it happens to be that you get a sizable amount of damage but can still hold your ground, you would be able to kill any opponent in turn. The damage buff would be a double edged sword that would mean someone has to win.

(one way to implement perhaps, 15% increase to damage (or damage received if the former is not an option) every minute increasing exponentially)

The duel could have it's own name of course, like Sudden Death,
/suddendeathduel <playername>


*shrug* Spitballing.

It's something like that i am talking about, we could use some options. The goal is to make dueling great and enjoyable to everyone, not to ruin someone else's fun.

Bislobo

Updated open post for clarification

Ahzek

Dracane wrote: »

Ahzek wrote: »

My personal favourite to end tied duels is to go WW.
Love it or hate it, but WW is a 100% guarantee for the fight to end within a minute, either cause the opponent breaks or because he knows what to do and the WW bites the dust.

Werewolf is like spamming Overload, just much much stronger
I like Werewolf alot. Especially when DKs use it, because they no longer have access to wings and vigor.

That's why WW is great. They can kill you quickly, but they loose most of their stamina OPness, which gives you the chance to kill them quickly as well.
With that being said, I agree

I agree with the general sentiment of your post, however i want to note a very important difference between overload spam and going WW.
You can always stop spamming overload, you might have wasted some ult, but you will never die from spamming overload in situations where you would have gone offensive with another ult regardless. With WW there is no going back, which is what I love most about it. Both players are under high pressure now, because the WW got some really high damage, but also weak defense with heavy resource cost.
Overload on the other hand still allows the use of main defense and utility tools like shields or streak.

Both are powerful offensive tools with reasonable counterplay to make them balanced, but only WW locks you into that descision.

Takes-No-Prisoner

CaptainVenom wrote: »

What about time limit? Sounds easier to do AND to understand. When duel ends, the player with most % Health alive wins.

They do this for a lot of 1v1 fighting games, and for the most part it works. The games it is used in;

Street Fighter
Marvel Vs Capcom
King of Fighters
Guilty Gear

Smash Brothers uses Sudden Death mode, which doesn't really work since the Timer/Health % is still calculated anyway for serious matches.

This feature works really great-- however ending the match without a decided victor isn't really a match at all don't you agree?

danno8 wrote: »

SleepyTroll wrote: »

What if you couldn't use potions? Seems like that would cut down on a lot of the never resources.

I would never use a potion in a duel...

I would because my build uses potions in rotations since I have Clever Alchemist equipped.

altemriel

Takes-No-Prisoner wrote: »

CaptainVenom wrote: »

What about time limit? Sounds easier to do AND to understand. When duel ends, the player with most % Health alive wins.

They do this for a lot of 1v1 fighting games, and for the most part it works. The games it is used in;

Street Fighter
Marvel Vs Capcom
King of Fighters
Guilty Gear

Smash Brothers uses Sudden Death mode, which doesn't really work since the Timer/Health % is still calculated anyway for serious matches.

This feature works really great-- however ending the match without a decided victor isn't really a match at all don't you agree?

danno8 wrote: »

SleepyTroll wrote: »

What if you couldn't use potions? Seems like that would cut down on a lot of the never resources.

I would never use a potion in a duel...

I would because my build uses potions in rotations since I have Clever Alchemist equipped.

however ending the match without a decided victor isn't really a match at all don't you agree?

I do not agree , it will be fun for me just to duel, I do not need to win (not that I would not want to win...)

anitajoneb17_ESO

altemriel wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

altemriel wrote: »

Beardimus wrote: »

So in duals are you scaled? I.e. If a CP200 Duals a 561?

good question, I think there was something in the PTS patch notes, that some Battle Spirit is active during duels, but I am not sure what was meant by that - battle leveling like in IC or Cyro or Wrothgar?

Cyro battle spirit. So they said at PAX West. Which, I believe, is the same as IC battle spirit, but different from Wrothgar battle levelling.

wait, what is the difference there? I did not know that were different things

could you please explain more?

Take all I say with a pinch of sallt since I'm not 100% sure of anything.

- PvE "scaling", aka "battle levelling", is an upscale of your stats and gear up to lvl CP160.
- PvP "scaling", aka "battle spirit", is an upscale of your stats and gear up to lvl CP160 PLUS 5000 health points added PLUS damage received, damage done, healing done is all reduced by 50%.

Experienced theorycrafters might know more details.

Takes-No-Prisoner

altemriel wrote: »

however ending the match without a decided victor isn't really a match at all don't you agree?

I do not agree , it will be fun for me just to duel, I do not need to win (not that I would not want to win...)

Here is why I don't agree with this statement.

Losing and Winning are equally important. It's the satisfaction of slaying a hard opponent and the thought provoking reflection process in losing is what makes someone a better fighter. Lengthy fights without restraints only goes to prove the guy with the better endurance wins. Skill isn't all about endurance, it's many many other things. 1v1 fighting is a age old testament to improving upon ones self in every facet not just having the energy to keep going.

kaithuzar

Duels are not "never ending", & please do not nerf them or create a debuff because both of you geniuses forgot to add the ability to damage each other & are just spamming reverb bash hoping the other one will falll over soon; oh that's right major mending....
A TIMER would do just fine, but a debuff is just one more thing "those of us who do add dmg into our builds" would have to take into consideration & build around.

Half of the fight is built around who has the better build & the other half is who is going to mess up first. If you don't like it you can always run outside the border & forfeit. I've won some pretty long fights but in the end the other guy messed up & I stayed with it & I wouldn't have it any other way.

Toc de Malsvi

There will never be a system which is fair and balanced for all involved. All you can hope to do is provide as fair as possible of a set of rules and be open about the rules in play.

Coming from having played a ton of arena's in WoW I like the idea of combat fatigue as endless fights can be a bit tiresome and boring, while players cannot afford to quit without giving up points/rank.

Drawing from certain fighting events and not others is a bit unfair, to be clear different individuals will have different standards for what they consider skillful and what they consider good competition and combat.

What would be interesting is if ZOS provided the utility to set dual standards, say a UI box that opens up and players can check a group of several boxes allowing for an agreement upon standards for which to fight. So that one pair can choose to fight without poisons, and another can choose combat fatigue or no potions.

You even add "weight" classes where say one player at 30k hps would be considered heavy weight and another at 15k hps would be considered light weight. They could agree to fight with those weight differences but there could be leader boards for top players in each weight bracket. As well as top players fighting across all brackets.

You could even take it further to allow dual's with set limitation numbers. Imagining the previously mentioned UI box with check boxes for different limitations, you could have a whole bracket just for "any three", where players could choose any three limitations for the dual.

There is a lot that could be done with it to allow for diversity without creating a system where mathematically X build will win the majority of contests.

Bislobo

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

There will never be a system which is fair and balanced for all involved. All you can hope to do is provide as fair as possible of a set of rules and be open about the rules in play.

Coming from having played a ton of arena's in WoW I like the idea of combat fatigue as endless fights can be a bit tiresome and boring, while players cannot afford to quit without giving up points/rank.

Drawing from certain fighting events and not others is a bit unfair, to be clear different individuals will have different standards for what they consider skillful and what they consider good competition and combat.

What would be interesting is if ZOS provided the utility to set dual standards, say a UI box that opens up and players can check a group of several boxes allowing for an agreement upon standards for which to fight. So that one pair can choose to fight without poisons, and another can choose combat fatigue or no potions.

You even add "weight" classes where say one player at 30k hps would be considered heavy weight and another at 15k hps would be considered light weight. They could agree to fight with those weight differences but there could be leader boards for top players in each weight bracket. As well as top players fighting across all brackets.

You could even take it further to allow dual's with set limitation numbers. Imagining the previously mentioned UI box with check boxes for different limitations, you could have a whole bracket just for "any three", where players could choose any three limitations for the dual.

There is a lot that could be done with it to allow for diversity without creating a system where mathematically X build will win the majority of contests.

Yes this is the way to go definitely... Of course it will be a work in progress and it's awesome that we are finally getting "official" dueling. But we can start thinking about the next steps

MakoFore

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

There will never be a system which is fair and balanced for all involved. All you can hope to do is provide as fair as possible of a set of rules and be open about the rules in play.

Coming from having played a ton of arena's in WoW I like the idea of combat fatigue as endless fights can be a bit tiresome and boring, while players cannot afford to quit without giving up points/rank.

Drawing from certain fighting events and not others is a bit unfair, to be clear different individuals will have different standards for what they consider skillful and what they consider good competition and combat.

What would be interesting is if ZOS provided the utility to set dual standards, say a UI box that opens up and players can check a group of several boxes allowing for an agreement upon standards for which to fight. So that one pair can choose to fight without poisons, and another can choose combat fatigue or no potions.

You even add "weight" classes where say one player at 30k hps would be considered heavy weight and another at 15k hps would be considered light weight. They could agree to fight with those weight differences but there could be leader boards for top players in each weight bracket. As well as top players fighting across all brackets.

You could even take it further to allow dual's with set limitation numbers. Imagining the previously mentioned UI box with check boxes for different limitations, you could have a whole bracket just for "any three", where players could choose any three limitations for the dual.

There is a lot that could be done with it to allow for diversity without creating a system where mathematically X build will win the majority of contests.

MakoFore

^^^^^^
agree+++
plus no duelling in towns. lol.