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Any ETA on that IC pop not contributing to cyro?

  • Skyy
    Skyy
    ✭✭✭
    KisoValley wrote: »
    You can tell 1 person on this thread REALLY hates IC

    If you mean me, I love Imperial City, I was in there just last night and always have fun down there, doesn't mean I want it imbalancing the AvAvA war outside by taking up essential population space.

    Your response was quite on point and well written. I only skimmed due to length, but everything I read I agreed with.
  • God_flakes
    God_flakes
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    KisoValley wrote: »
    You can tell 1 person on this thread REALLY hates IC

    I openly admit I detest it. We don't all like the same things do we? From the minute I found it was yet another pve zone tucked inside my beloved pvp main attraction, I was annoyed. It's nothing more than zos trying to lead people by the nose to go pve and not help their faction in the war. And we all know plenty of sheeple will fall for it and allow themselves to be herded down there as we can see by the crap show Molag Ball stack it has become. And to think this nonsense is going to go on for a full week. SIIIGH.
    ~Every single night and every single day, I'mma do my thang, I'mma do my thang.~
  • KenaPKK
    KenaPKK
    Class Representative
    IC does not need to be cut off. It needs more objectives, and those objectives need to impact the campaign.
    Kena
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    Apex Predator.

    Here's a great thread collecting community ideas for PvP updates.

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  • Minno
    Minno
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    KenaPKK wrote: »
    IC does not need to be cut off. It needs more objectives, and those objectives need to impact the campaign.

    We can have dailies that say "kills x number of this class, and steal 5k stones".

    Then we can have "capture memorial, arena and arboretum district's and hold for 30 minutes.". They can pick the district's that present the most challenging and have it set as global announcement like they do when emp is crowded to promote district PvP.

    The district's themselves need additional flags to punish zerging in one spot. Or the the district's themselves give a separate buff or the flags in each district can be attached to a grouping that lets players target them (control all house flags and receive additional guards at all faction flags etc.)

    Just some open thoughts.
    Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
    - Guild-lead for MV
    - Filthy Casual
  • Lucius_Aelius
    Lucius_Aelius
    ✭✭✭✭
    Minno wrote: »
    KenaPKK wrote: »
    IC does not need to be cut off. It needs more objectives, and those objectives need to impact the campaign.

    We can have dailies that say "kills x number of this class, and steal 5k stones".

    Then we can have "capture memorial, arena and arboretum district's and hold for 30 minutes.". They can pick the district's that present the most challenging and have it set as global announcement like they do when emp is crowded to promote district PvP.

    The district's themselves need additional flags to punish zerging in one spot. Or the the district's themselves give a separate buff or the flags in each district can be attached to a grouping that lets players target them (control all house flags and receive additional guards at all faction flags etc.)

    Just some open thoughts.

    No offense but that sounds weak and not very compelling at all, nothing I can imagine would be remotely compelling without drastically and completely redesigning Imperial City from the ground up, and I along with many others like it the way it is and don't think it should be changed except to be separated, how about arguing against some of the points I made in my last posts if you want to convince us otherwise?
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  • Minno
    Minno
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Minno wrote: »
    KenaPKK wrote: »
    IC does not need to be cut off. It needs more objectives, and those objectives need to impact the campaign.

    We can have dailies that say "kills x number of this class, and steal 5k stones".

    Then we can have "capture memorial, arena and arboretum district's and hold for 30 minutes.". They can pick the district's that present the most challenging and have it set as global announcement like they do when emp is crowded to promote district PvP.

    The district's themselves need additional flags to punish zerging in one spot. Or the the district's themselves give a separate buff or the flags in each district can be attached to a grouping that lets players target them (control all house flags and receive additional guards at all faction flags etc.)

    Just some open thoughts.

    No offense but that sounds weak and not very compelling at all, nothing I can imagine would be remotely compelling without drastically and completely redesigning Imperial City from the ground up, and I along with many others like it the way it is and don't think it should be changed except to be separated, how about arguing against some of the points I made in my last posts if you want to convince us otherwise?

    See below in bold :

    1) "As others have said, Imperial City is just too different a playstyle for it to mesh well with the outside campaign, and your ideas frankly sound horribly imbalanced to me and not the least bit helpful for anyone besides whichever Zerg is larger. For one thing there is just too much PvE in Imperial City, it's okay for its own instance but Imperial City style play was and is absolutely not what I signed up for, the Alliance War is a strictly PvP thing with only minimal non-player combatants on resources and the like. Sieging keeps and taking scrolls is what this game's AvA war was and is all about, and it should stay that way." Different playstyles is good for the health of any game. Separating the playstyles is not hte answer either (unless you want pve completely removed from pvp. TBH the best time for pvp in this game was when PVE players were forced to do PVP to achieve the item sets (ravenger, MT, etc.). So aside from gear how else can you MAKE people pvp? Leaderboards and gear are the quickest ways (EMP and AP points/top leaderboard with a gear reward are still the only factors in forcing people to PVP everyday. if these didn't exist no one would pvp.

    "And have you seen Imperial City lately? That place is an absolute mess, overrun by Daedra and rogue Imperials, and it makes absolutely no sense that anyone could be considered as controlling it without it being cleaned up and not have Daedra all over. Just because you happen to control a few flags, you think that should count the same as an Emperor for their team? That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard, controlling a few flags with no walls around them that takes so little effort and also still leaves the entire actual city under Daedra control means nothing, you can't be said to control *** without wiping the Daedra out completely, anything else is nonsense. That's like saying you should control a Keep if every NPC inside the keep were a Daedra, that is nonsense, you don't control *** unless your soldiers are completely in control."It is a mess if you think of it as a PVP-park ride. In some recent changes brian wheeler was quoted as looking to add life to pvp environments to add a dynamic atmosphere. IC achieves this but the following mechanics; a patrolling boss, NPC's engaging with little weak NPC humans, daily quests to interact with those NPCS. From a storyline aspect, the deadra and imperials no longer make sense. You can make the alliance war make sense but adding patrolling faction guards that engage in NPCS yet can attack players. You can enable a "captain boss" with a chance to drop IC gear or motifs. but all this stuff is minor and without a leaderboard, its essentially just a PVE land where you go to pretend you are a bully stealing lunchmoney. IT MUST BE TIED TO THE ALLIANCE SCORE TO BE CONSIDERED PVP.

    "Trying to mesh Imperial Ctiy together with the outside campaign would require that Imperial City be completely redesigned and the Daedra completely removed, with the walls and doors of the districts needing to be sieged down like anywhere else. Basically turn each District into it's own keep, and if you don't control a district you can't enter it at all without sieging into it. And the only NPC's being Soldiers from the Alliance who controls it, again it makes no sense for anyone to be said to be controlling anything so long as the Daedra are everywhere, they're the ones in control not us and you're a damn fool if you think otherwise."sub daedra with alliance factions. that handles the point where you cant get over the NPC factor limiting your pvp experience. locking and seiging the district walls is difficult and suggests the playstyle to match vanilla cyro (huge mistake since you wanted the playstyles to remain separate.) each flag should have a BOSS npc requiring coordination if oyu are worried about difficulty in capturing the flag. Adding a leaderboard with a chance to gain stats is currently the only known pvp mechanic that works. untill they design other objectives, there has been no other mechanic that forces people to pvp (aside from gear.)

    "Also, nothing like Tel Var Stones has any business affecting PvP like you suggest with a leaderboard and the top guy getting buffs against other players, not when Tel Var stones are primarily obtained by killing PvE enemies and/or Ganking players who fought lots of PvE enemies themselves, and no one deserves to get any standing in PvP for being good at Ganking or fighting PvE enemies."you get AP by taking resources. you get more AP by killing players. with tel var you get stones for killing NPCs/quests, but you get more tel var if you PVP. currently the two systems match and therefore should have scores that affect the general alliance war score. adding a emp mechanic to IC seems like a no brainer if you want to use precedence to promote pvp play (aside form gear). additionally you can add a chance to earn IC gear instead of upper cyro gear at end of campaign win.

    "And that doesn't even touch the Sewers, I have no idea what could be done with them frankly because PvE with a bit of PvP is what the Sewers are all about, and you can't really change them significantly without ruining them for the people who like them now. You can't siege anything from down there so there can't be connections to the districts without causing imbalance in the fight above, no point sieging anything if you can just pop up anywhere you want through the sewers and rush any district that way. And taking away the Daedra would defeat the point of them being there, there would basically be nothing to do down there besides the occasional skirmish."sewers remain a pve land. you should get dailies that reflect this and promote a place to farm tel var. center mechanic promotes faction tensions. due to this, sewers is the best pvp experience in IC; you can earn stones for gear, and get into pvp fights easily. no seige should be allowed in IC or sewers,.

    "And you need something that can be accomplished in the sewers because that's where most people in Imperial City go, and if they're not accomplishing objectives that contribute to winning then they're once again just taking up space and gimping their team above. And again you're not really controlling anything as long as the Daedra are everywhere, so they'd need to be removed for anyone to be able to say that they control the city. The Imperial City was an interesting idea and I don't think that style of play should just be removed, but it certainly shouldn't be connected in any way to the War at large in anything remotely resembling its current form."most players go here to earn tel var and gank players. force upper to interact with lower? once again, no one will pvp except for a chance to win gear or be on a leaderboard or for kills.

    "The fact is that so long as the city is overrun with Daedra it makes perfect sense for it to be separate from the War, it was never more than a symbol anyway. Controlling the land around it is what makes someone an Emperor, which is why ZOS made it work the way they did with taking the keeps around it. The Daedra only took it over because it was relatively undefended because of the chaos after Varen did his thing, and it's the center of Tamriel with walls and a moat around it, what better place for Molag Bal to use as a base of operations for enacting his plan to suck the world into Coldharbour from? And frankly even if they implemented every change I suggested, having more things that people need to pay attention to could well only serve to divide our forces and limit our ability to fight everywhere else, so your suggestion about locking access to the city is especially ill-conceived."you really cant get over the Daedra being there can you lol. The city lockdown mechanic was to promote vanila cyro interacting with being in IC. if you are in IC you cant be in reg cyro, so it makes sense to introduce ways to force players to keep moving and promote interesting ways to pvp instead of only going between keeps or just farming telvar.

    "It needs to be freely accessed by Transit Shrine from any keep adjacent to the city, locking access without controlling 5 of the surrounding keeps just ensures that fewer people will go there since accessing it is so difficult, and also ensure that the war effort is that much more imbalanced because all anyone needs to do is stop the enemy team from controlling 5 keeps and they won't be able to access the city at all. That would ensure greater imbalance, not less, if anything in the city afforded any benefit to the players controlling it."the control mechanic was only the faction inner home keeps. For DC its Ales and Ash, with Ash serving as the keep closest to the sewer entrance. If IC and Cyro are to function as one, the city should be accessed by the bridges to promote additional ways to enter the city

    "All of this just sounds like too much effort for too little reward, especially since the changes required to make the city a proper part of the fight would ruin the city for those who like it as it is, and I frankly do like it as it is, just not that it shares a population with the outside campaign. It's an interesting place and don't think it should change, just be made the separate place with separate gameplay that it always should have been, and all the better for people who aren't interested in AvA but who still like to do some PvP with PvE thrown in."once again, EMP, leaderboards, and gear are currently the only pvp systems promoting pvp play. If you separate it from general pvp, youll be doing the following: promoting pve or gank pvp only, separating the PVP from the game instead of thinking of ways to introduce it, and without a leaderboard or way to promote pvp youll be stuck with pve players that cannot pvp and that lack of challenge with discourage pvp since it would create the same situation pvp players feel when they have to interact with NPC content; it feels like fighting a pincushion.
    Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
    - Guild-lead for MV
    - Filthy Casual
  • God_flakes
    God_flakes
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Minno wrote: »
    Minno wrote: »
    KenaPKK wrote: »
    IC does not need to be cut off. It needs more objectives, and those objectives need to impact the campaign.

    We can have dailies that say "kills x number of this class, and steal 5k stones".

    Then we can have "capture memorial, arena and arboretum district's and hold for 30 minutes.". They can pick the district's that present the most challenging and have it set as global announcement like they do when emp is crowded to promote district PvP.

    The district's themselves need additional flags to punish zerging in one spot. Or the the district's themselves give a separate buff or the flags in each district can be attached to a grouping that lets players target them (control all house flags and receive additional guards at all faction flags etc.)

    Just some open thoughts.

    No offense but that sounds weak and not very compelling at all, nothing I can imagine would be remotely compelling without drastically and completely redesigning Imperial City from the ground up, and I along with many others like it the way it is and don't think it should be changed except to be separated, how about arguing against some of the points I made in my last posts if you want to convince us otherwise?

    See below in bold :

    1) "As others have said, Imperial City is just too different a playstyle for it to mesh well with the outside campaign, and your ideas frankly sound horribly imbalanced to me and not the least bit helpful for anyone besides whichever Zerg is larger. For one thing there is just too much PvE in Imperial City, it's okay for its own instance but Imperial City style play was and is absolutely not what I signed up for, the Alliance War is a strictly PvP thing with only minimal non-player combatants on resources and the like. Sieging keeps and taking scrolls is what this game's AvA war was and is all about, and it should stay that way." Different playstyles is good for the health of any game. Separating the playstyles is not hte answer either (unless you want pve completely removed from pvp. TBH the best time for pvp in this game was when PVE players were forced to do PVP to achieve the item sets (ravenger, MT, etc.). So aside from gear how else can you MAKE people pvp? Leaderboards and gear are the quickest ways (EMP and AP points/top leaderboard with a gear reward are still the only factors in forcing people to PVP everyday. if these didn't exist no one would pvp.

    "And have you seen Imperial City lately? That place is an absolute mess, overrun by Daedra and rogue Imperials, and it makes absolutely no sense that anyone could be considered as controlling it without it being cleaned up and not have Daedra all over. Just because you happen to control a few flags, you think that should count the same as an Emperor for their team? That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard, controlling a few flags with no walls around them that takes so little effort and also still leaves the entire actual city under Daedra control means nothing, you can't be said to control *** without wiping the Daedra out completely, anything else is nonsense. That's like saying you should control a Keep if every NPC inside the keep were a Daedra, that is nonsense, you don't control *** unless your soldiers are completely in control."It is a mess if you think of it as a PVP-park ride. In some recent changes brian wheeler was quoted as looking to add life to pvp environments to add a dynamic atmosphere. IC achieves this but the following mechanics; a patrolling boss, NPC's engaging with little weak NPC humans, daily quests to interact with those NPCS. From a storyline aspect, the deadra and imperials no longer make sense. You can make the alliance war make sense but adding patrolling faction guards that engage in NPCS yet can attack players. You can enable a "captain boss" with a chance to drop IC gear or motifs. but all this stuff is minor and without a leaderboard, its essentially just a PVE land where you go to pretend you are a bully stealing lunchmoney. IT MUST BE TIED TO THE ALLIANCE SCORE TO BE CONSIDERED PVP.

    "Trying to mesh Imperial Ctiy together with the outside campaign would require that Imperial City be completely redesigned and the Daedra completely removed, with the walls and doors of the districts needing to be sieged down like anywhere else. Basically turn each District into it's own keep, and if you don't control a district you can't enter it at all without sieging into it. And the only NPC's being Soldiers from the Alliance who controls it, again it makes no sense for anyone to be said to be controlling anything so long as the Daedra are everywhere, they're the ones in control not us and you're a damn fool if you think otherwise."sub daedra with alliance factions. that handles the point where you cant get over the NPC factor limiting your pvp experience. locking and seiging the district walls is difficult and suggests the playstyle to match vanilla cyro (huge mistake since you wanted the playstyles to remain separate.) each flag should have a BOSS npc requiring coordination if oyu are worried about difficulty in capturing the flag. Adding a leaderboard with a chance to gain stats is currently the only known pvp mechanic that works. untill they design other objectives, there has been no other mechanic that forces people to pvp (aside from gear.)

    "Also, nothing like Tel Var Stones has any business affecting PvP like you suggest with a leaderboard and the top guy getting buffs against other players, not when Tel Var stones are primarily obtained by killing PvE enemies and/or Ganking players who fought lots of PvE enemies themselves, and no one deserves to get any standing in PvP for being good at Ganking or fighting PvE enemies."you get AP by taking resources. you get more AP by killing players. with tel var you get stones for killing NPCs/quests, but you get more tel var if you PVP. currently the two systems match and therefore should have scores that affect the general alliance war score. adding a emp mechanic to IC seems like a no brainer if you want to use precedence to promote pvp play (aside form gear). additionally you can add a chance to earn IC gear instead of upper cyro gear at end of campaign win.

    "And that doesn't even touch the Sewers, I have no idea what could be done with them frankly because PvE with a bit of PvP is what the Sewers are all about, and you can't really change them significantly without ruining them for the people who like them now. You can't siege anything from down there so there can't be connections to the districts without causing imbalance in the fight above, no point sieging anything if you can just pop up anywhere you want through the sewers and rush any district that way. And taking away the Daedra would defeat the point of them being there, there would basically be nothing to do down there besides the occasional skirmish."sewers remain a pve land. you should get dailies that reflect this and promote a place to farm tel var. center mechanic promotes faction tensions. due to this, sewers is the best pvp experience in IC; you can earn stones for gear, and get into pvp fights easily. no seige should be allowed in IC or sewers,.

    "And you need something that can be accomplished in the sewers because that's where most people in Imperial City go, and if they're not accomplishing objectives that contribute to winning then they're once again just taking up space and gimping their team above. And again you're not really controlling anything as long as the Daedra are everywhere, so they'd need to be removed for anyone to be able to say that they control the city. The Imperial City was an interesting idea and I don't think that style of play should just be removed, but it certainly shouldn't be connected in any way to the War at large in anything remotely resembling its current form."most players go here to earn tel var and gank players. force upper to interact with lower? once again, no one will pvp except for a chance to win gear or be on a leaderboard or for kills.

    "The fact is that so long as the city is overrun with Daedra it makes perfect sense for it to be separate from the War, it was never more than a symbol anyway. Controlling the land around it is what makes someone an Emperor, which is why ZOS made it work the way they did with taking the keeps around it. The Daedra only took it over because it was relatively undefended because of the chaos after Varen did his thing, and it's the center of Tamriel with walls and a moat around it, what better place for Molag Bal to use as a base of operations for enacting his plan to suck the world into Coldharbour from? And frankly even if they implemented every change I suggested, having more things that people need to pay attention to could well only serve to divide our forces and limit our ability to fight everywhere else, so your suggestion about locking access to the city is especially ill-conceived."you really cant get over the Daedra being there can you lol. The city lockdown mechanic was to promote vanila cyro interacting with being in IC. if you are in IC you cant be in reg cyro, so it makes sense to introduce ways to force players to keep moving and promote interesting ways to pvp instead of only going between keeps or just farming telvar.

    "It needs to be freely accessed by Transit Shrine from any keep adjacent to the city, locking access without controlling 5 of the surrounding keeps just ensures that fewer people will go there since accessing it is so difficult, and also ensure that the war effort is that much more imbalanced because all anyone needs to do is stop the enemy team from controlling 5 keeps and they won't be able to access the city at all. That would ensure greater imbalance, not less, if anything in the city afforded any benefit to the players controlling it."the control mechanic was only the faction inner home keeps. For DC its Ales and Ash, with Ash serving as the keep closest to the sewer entrance. If IC and Cyro are to function as one, the city should be accessed by the bridges to promote additional ways to enter the city

    "All of this just sounds like too much effort for too little reward, especially since the changes required to make the city a proper part of the fight would ruin the city for those who like it as it is, and I frankly do like it as it is, just not that it shares a population with the outside campaign. It's an interesting place and don't think it should change, just be made the separate place with separate gameplay that it always should have been, and all the better for people who aren't interested in AvA but who still like to do some PvP with PvE thrown in."once again, EMP, leaderboards, and gear are currently the only pvp systems promoting pvp play. If you separate it from general pvp, youll be doing the following: promoting pve or gank pvp only, separating the PVP from the game instead of thinking of ways to introduce it, and without a leaderboard or way to promote pvp youll be stuck with pve players that cannot pvp and that lack of challenge with discourage pvp since it would create the same situation pvp players feel when they have to interact with NPC content; it feels like fighting a pincushion.

    "Force"? If someone needs to be forced to pvp...I don't want them by my side or even against me on the field. You either love pvp or you don't. You either love pve or you don't. I for one hate it. I detest it. I hate crafting and farming mats and making stuff and doing the same dungeons over and over. I like the ever changing, dynamic and unpredictable nature of pvp and the teamwork/social aspect of it. Let's be honest here, IC is a pve lovers paradise. And until and unless it has relevant objectives it will continue to be a pve lovers paradise, in a pvp area. And the bottom like is the pve'rs have PLENTY of places to go. Why they needed to devote one more area to pve is beyond me and actually makes my blood boil.
    ~Every single night and every single day, I'mma do my thang, I'mma do my thang.~
  • Minno
    Minno
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    God_flakes wrote: »
    Minno wrote: »
    Minno wrote: »
    KenaPKK wrote: »
    IC does not need to be cut off. It needs more objectives, and those objectives need to impact the campaign.

    We can have dailies that say "kills x number of this class, and steal 5k stones".

    Then we can have "capture memorial, arena and arboretum district's and hold for 30 minutes.". They can pick the district's that present the most challenging and have it set as global announcement like they do when emp is crowded to promote district PvP.

    The district's themselves need additional flags to punish zerging in one spot. Or the the district's themselves give a separate buff or the flags in each district can be attached to a grouping that lets players target them (control all house flags and receive additional guards at all faction flags etc.)

    Just some open thoughts.

    No offense but that sounds weak and not very compelling at all, nothing I can imagine would be remotely compelling without drastically and completely redesigning Imperial City from the ground up, and I along with many others like it the way it is and don't think it should be changed except to be separated, how about arguing against some of the points I made in my last posts if you want to convince us otherwise?

    See below in bold :

    1) "As others have said, Imperial City is just too different a playstyle for it to mesh well with the outside campaign, and your ideas frankly sound horribly imbalanced to me and not the least bit helpful for anyone besides whichever Zerg is larger. For one thing there is just too much PvE in Imperial City, it's okay for its own instance but Imperial City style play was and is absolutely not what I signed up for, the Alliance War is a strictly PvP thing with only minimal non-player combatants on resources and the like. Sieging keeps and taking scrolls is what this game's AvA war was and is all about, and it should stay that way." Different playstyles is good for the health of any game. Separating the playstyles is not hte answer either (unless you want pve completely removed from pvp. TBH the best time for pvp in this game was when PVE players were forced to do PVP to achieve the item sets (ravenger, MT, etc.). So aside from gear how else can you MAKE people pvp? Leaderboards and gear are the quickest ways (EMP and AP points/top leaderboard with a gear reward are still the only factors in forcing people to PVP everyday. if these didn't exist no one would pvp.

    "And have you seen Imperial City lately? That place is an absolute mess, overrun by Daedra and rogue Imperials, and it makes absolutely no sense that anyone could be considered as controlling it without it being cleaned up and not have Daedra all over. Just because you happen to control a few flags, you think that should count the same as an Emperor for their team? That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard, controlling a few flags with no walls around them that takes so little effort and also still leaves the entire actual city under Daedra control means nothing, you can't be said to control *** without wiping the Daedra out completely, anything else is nonsense. That's like saying you should control a Keep if every NPC inside the keep were a Daedra, that is nonsense, you don't control *** unless your soldiers are completely in control."It is a mess if you think of it as a PVP-park ride. In some recent changes brian wheeler was quoted as looking to add life to pvp environments to add a dynamic atmosphere. IC achieves this but the following mechanics; a patrolling boss, NPC's engaging with little weak NPC humans, daily quests to interact with those NPCS. From a storyline aspect, the deadra and imperials no longer make sense. You can make the alliance war make sense but adding patrolling faction guards that engage in NPCS yet can attack players. You can enable a "captain boss" with a chance to drop IC gear or motifs. but all this stuff is minor and without a leaderboard, its essentially just a PVE land where you go to pretend you are a bully stealing lunchmoney. IT MUST BE TIED TO THE ALLIANCE SCORE TO BE CONSIDERED PVP.

    "Trying to mesh Imperial Ctiy together with the outside campaign would require that Imperial City be completely redesigned and the Daedra completely removed, with the walls and doors of the districts needing to be sieged down like anywhere else. Basically turn each District into it's own keep, and if you don't control a district you can't enter it at all without sieging into it. And the only NPC's being Soldiers from the Alliance who controls it, again it makes no sense for anyone to be said to be controlling anything so long as the Daedra are everywhere, they're the ones in control not us and you're a damn fool if you think otherwise."sub daedra with alliance factions. that handles the point where you cant get over the NPC factor limiting your pvp experience. locking and seiging the district walls is difficult and suggests the playstyle to match vanilla cyro (huge mistake since you wanted the playstyles to remain separate.) each flag should have a BOSS npc requiring coordination if oyu are worried about difficulty in capturing the flag. Adding a leaderboard with a chance to gain stats is currently the only known pvp mechanic that works. untill they design other objectives, there has been no other mechanic that forces people to pvp (aside from gear.)

    "Also, nothing like Tel Var Stones has any business affecting PvP like you suggest with a leaderboard and the top guy getting buffs against other players, not when Tel Var stones are primarily obtained by killing PvE enemies and/or Ganking players who fought lots of PvE enemies themselves, and no one deserves to get any standing in PvP for being good at Ganking or fighting PvE enemies."you get AP by taking resources. you get more AP by killing players. with tel var you get stones for killing NPCs/quests, but you get more tel var if you PVP. currently the two systems match and therefore should have scores that affect the general alliance war score. adding a emp mechanic to IC seems like a no brainer if you want to use precedence to promote pvp play (aside form gear). additionally you can add a chance to earn IC gear instead of upper cyro gear at end of campaign win.

    "And that doesn't even touch the Sewers, I have no idea what could be done with them frankly because PvE with a bit of PvP is what the Sewers are all about, and you can't really change them significantly without ruining them for the people who like them now. You can't siege anything from down there so there can't be connections to the districts without causing imbalance in the fight above, no point sieging anything if you can just pop up anywhere you want through the sewers and rush any district that way. And taking away the Daedra would defeat the point of them being there, there would basically be nothing to do down there besides the occasional skirmish."sewers remain a pve land. you should get dailies that reflect this and promote a place to farm tel var. center mechanic promotes faction tensions. due to this, sewers is the best pvp experience in IC; you can earn stones for gear, and get into pvp fights easily. no seige should be allowed in IC or sewers,.

    "And you need something that can be accomplished in the sewers because that's where most people in Imperial City go, and if they're not accomplishing objectives that contribute to winning then they're once again just taking up space and gimping their team above. And again you're not really controlling anything as long as the Daedra are everywhere, so they'd need to be removed for anyone to be able to say that they control the city. The Imperial City was an interesting idea and I don't think that style of play should just be removed, but it certainly shouldn't be connected in any way to the War at large in anything remotely resembling its current form."most players go here to earn tel var and gank players. force upper to interact with lower? once again, no one will pvp except for a chance to win gear or be on a leaderboard or for kills.

    "The fact is that so long as the city is overrun with Daedra it makes perfect sense for it to be separate from the War, it was never more than a symbol anyway. Controlling the land around it is what makes someone an Emperor, which is why ZOS made it work the way they did with taking the keeps around it. The Daedra only took it over because it was relatively undefended because of the chaos after Varen did his thing, and it's the center of Tamriel with walls and a moat around it, what better place for Molag Bal to use as a base of operations for enacting his plan to suck the world into Coldharbour from? And frankly even if they implemented every change I suggested, having more things that people need to pay attention to could well only serve to divide our forces and limit our ability to fight everywhere else, so your suggestion about locking access to the city is especially ill-conceived."you really cant get over the Daedra being there can you lol. The city lockdown mechanic was to promote vanila cyro interacting with being in IC. if you are in IC you cant be in reg cyro, so it makes sense to introduce ways to force players to keep moving and promote interesting ways to pvp instead of only going between keeps or just farming telvar.

    "It needs to be freely accessed by Transit Shrine from any keep adjacent to the city, locking access without controlling 5 of the surrounding keeps just ensures that fewer people will go there since accessing it is so difficult, and also ensure that the war effort is that much more imbalanced because all anyone needs to do is stop the enemy team from controlling 5 keeps and they won't be able to access the city at all. That would ensure greater imbalance, not less, if anything in the city afforded any benefit to the players controlling it."the control mechanic was only the faction inner home keeps. For DC its Ales and Ash, with Ash serving as the keep closest to the sewer entrance. If IC and Cyro are to function as one, the city should be accessed by the bridges to promote additional ways to enter the city

    "All of this just sounds like too much effort for too little reward, especially since the changes required to make the city a proper part of the fight would ruin the city for those who like it as it is, and I frankly do like it as it is, just not that it shares a population with the outside campaign. It's an interesting place and don't think it should change, just be made the separate place with separate gameplay that it always should have been, and all the better for people who aren't interested in AvA but who still like to do some PvP with PvE thrown in."once again, EMP, leaderboards, and gear are currently the only pvp systems promoting pvp play. If you separate it from general pvp, youll be doing the following: promoting pve or gank pvp only, separating the PVP from the game instead of thinking of ways to introduce it, and without a leaderboard or way to promote pvp youll be stuck with pve players that cannot pvp and that lack of challenge with discourage pvp since it would create the same situation pvp players feel when they have to interact with NPC content; it feels like fighting a pincushion.

    "Force"? If someone needs to be forced to pvp...I don't want them by my side or even against me on the field. You either love pvp or you don't. You either love pve or you don't. I for one hate it. I detest it. I hate crafting and farming mats and making stuff and doing the same dungeons over and over. I like the ever changing, dynamic and unpredictable nature of pvp and the teamwork/social aspect of it. Let's be honest here, IC is a pve lovers paradise. And until and unless it has relevant objectives it will continue to be a pve lovers paradise, in a pvp area. And the bottom like is the pve'rs have PLENTY of places to go. Why they needed to devote one more area to pve is beyond me and actually makes my blood boil.

    We are all "forced" to PvP. Aside from guild groups forcing AP farms and defenses, players will choose the path of least resistances. In this case, the pvp experience is as follows:
    - inner ring keeps are the only dynamic objectives. if you dont protect them, the enemy crowns emp and gives their faction strong buffs. You are FORCED to engage in keep-keep pvp play.
    - keeps, resources, scrolls = only ways to control faction score. faction score helps you win gear, gear keeps a majority of players playing pvp. Score FORCES pvp play.
    - Epeen forum warriors, streamers, faction leads use faction score to promote faction identity and videos. faction loyalty and score doesnt force pvp but helps add a dynamic element to pvp (resembles a leaderboard).
    - no other areas on the pvp map add to the score, therefore you are forced to fight at the keeps.

    We are all forced to PVP. It is linear, boring, and at least our idea is using the easiest way to introduce pvp to a place thats only pve. This is side from coding difficult objective scenarios (which we all know ZOS will not implement easily on a limited budget.)

    PvP needs more dynamic elements.
    Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
    - Guild-lead for MV
    - Filthy Casual
  • KenaPKK
    KenaPKK
    Class Representative
    I meant that players in Cyrodiil need to feel an impact from owning IC objectives, whether through buffs or campaign score points or influencing emperorship etc.

    This is the only logical way to build IC. It is in literal fact the heart of Cyrodiil and the Alliance War. It needs to be treated as such.

    And to the "but not everyone has IC DLC" carebears, well everyone still has Cyrodiil and the option to buy the DLC. They can fight up top same as always. The only way this excuse holds water is if the percentages of players on each faction who have the DLC are terribly imbalanced. I doubt this is the case considering the amount of players in IC and how many players are cross faction.
    Kena
    Legion XIII
    Excellence without elitism
    Premier small scale PvP

    Legend
    NA/PC original dueling and general PvP community guild
    Now the hub of competitive dueling and the joined PvP communities of NA and EU/PC


    Apex Predator.

    Here's a great thread collecting community ideas for PvP updates.

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  • God_flakes
    God_flakes
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Minno wrote: »
    God_flakes wrote: »
    Minno wrote: »
    Minno wrote: »
    KenaPKK wrote: »
    IC does not need to be cut off. It needs more objectives, and those objectives need to impact the campaign.

    We can have dailies that say "kills x number of this class, and steal 5k stones".

    Then we can have "capture memorial, arena and arboretum district's and hold for 30 minutes.". They can pick the district's that present the most challenging and have it set as global announcement like they do when emp is crowded to promote district PvP.

    The district's themselves need additional flags to punish zerging in one spot. Or the the district's themselves give a separate buff or the flags in each district can be attached to a grouping that lets players target them (control all house flags and receive additional guards at all faction flags etc.)

    Just some open thoughts.

    No offense but that sounds weak and not very compelling at all, nothing I can imagine would be remotely compelling without drastically and completely redesigning Imperial City from the ground up, and I along with many others like it the way it is and don't think it should be changed except to be separated, how about arguing against some of the points I made in my last posts if you want to convince us otherwise?

    See below in bold :

    1) "As others have said, Imperial City is just too different a playstyle for it to mesh well with the outside campaign, and your ideas frankly sound horribly imbalanced to me and not the least bit helpful for anyone besides whichever Zerg is larger. For one thing there is just too much PvE in Imperial City, it's okay for its own instance but Imperial City style play was and is absolutely not what I signed up for, the Alliance War is a strictly PvP thing with only minimal non-player combatants on resources and the like. Sieging keeps and taking scrolls is what this game's AvA war was and is all about, and it should stay that way." Different playstyles is good for the health of any game. Separating the playstyles is not hte answer either (unless you want pve completely removed from pvp. TBH the best time for pvp in this game was when PVE players were forced to do PVP to achieve the item sets (ravenger, MT, etc.). So aside from gear how else can you MAKE people pvp? Leaderboards and gear are the quickest ways (EMP and AP points/top leaderboard with a gear reward are still the only factors in forcing people to PVP everyday. if these didn't exist no one would pvp.

    "And have you seen Imperial City lately? That place is an absolute mess, overrun by Daedra and rogue Imperials, and it makes absolutely no sense that anyone could be considered as controlling it without it being cleaned up and not have Daedra all over. Just because you happen to control a few flags, you think that should count the same as an Emperor for their team? That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard, controlling a few flags with no walls around them that takes so little effort and also still leaves the entire actual city under Daedra control means nothing, you can't be said to control *** without wiping the Daedra out completely, anything else is nonsense. That's like saying you should control a Keep if every NPC inside the keep were a Daedra, that is nonsense, you don't control *** unless your soldiers are completely in control."It is a mess if you think of it as a PVP-park ride. In some recent changes brian wheeler was quoted as looking to add life to pvp environments to add a dynamic atmosphere. IC achieves this but the following mechanics; a patrolling boss, NPC's engaging with little weak NPC humans, daily quests to interact with those NPCS. From a storyline aspect, the deadra and imperials no longer make sense. You can make the alliance war make sense but adding patrolling faction guards that engage in NPCS yet can attack players. You can enable a "captain boss" with a chance to drop IC gear or motifs. but all this stuff is minor and without a leaderboard, its essentially just a PVE land where you go to pretend you are a bully stealing lunchmoney. IT MUST BE TIED TO THE ALLIANCE SCORE TO BE CONSIDERED PVP.

    "Trying to mesh Imperial Ctiy together with the outside campaign would require that Imperial City be completely redesigned and the Daedra completely removed, with the walls and doors of the districts needing to be sieged down like anywhere else. Basically turn each District into it's own keep, and if you don't control a district you can't enter it at all without sieging into it. And the only NPC's being Soldiers from the Alliance who controls it, again it makes no sense for anyone to be said to be controlling anything so long as the Daedra are everywhere, they're the ones in control not us and you're a damn fool if you think otherwise."sub daedra with alliance factions. that handles the point where you cant get over the NPC factor limiting your pvp experience. locking and seiging the district walls is difficult and suggests the playstyle to match vanilla cyro (huge mistake since you wanted the playstyles to remain separate.) each flag should have a BOSS npc requiring coordination if oyu are worried about difficulty in capturing the flag. Adding a leaderboard with a chance to gain stats is currently the only known pvp mechanic that works. untill they design other objectives, there has been no other mechanic that forces people to pvp (aside from gear.)

    "Also, nothing like Tel Var Stones has any business affecting PvP like you suggest with a leaderboard and the top guy getting buffs against other players, not when Tel Var stones are primarily obtained by killing PvE enemies and/or Ganking players who fought lots of PvE enemies themselves, and no one deserves to get any standing in PvP for being good at Ganking or fighting PvE enemies."you get AP by taking resources. you get more AP by killing players. with tel var you get stones for killing NPCs/quests, but you get more tel var if you PVP. currently the two systems match and therefore should have scores that affect the general alliance war score. adding a emp mechanic to IC seems like a no brainer if you want to use precedence to promote pvp play (aside form gear). additionally you can add a chance to earn IC gear instead of upper cyro gear at end of campaign win.

    "And that doesn't even touch the Sewers, I have no idea what could be done with them frankly because PvE with a bit of PvP is what the Sewers are all about, and you can't really change them significantly without ruining them for the people who like them now. You can't siege anything from down there so there can't be connections to the districts without causing imbalance in the fight above, no point sieging anything if you can just pop up anywhere you want through the sewers and rush any district that way. And taking away the Daedra would defeat the point of them being there, there would basically be nothing to do down there besides the occasional skirmish."sewers remain a pve land. you should get dailies that reflect this and promote a place to farm tel var. center mechanic promotes faction tensions. due to this, sewers is the best pvp experience in IC; you can earn stones for gear, and get into pvp fights easily. no seige should be allowed in IC or sewers,.

    "And you need something that can be accomplished in the sewers because that's where most people in Imperial City go, and if they're not accomplishing objectives that contribute to winning then they're once again just taking up space and gimping their team above. And again you're not really controlling anything as long as the Daedra are everywhere, so they'd need to be removed for anyone to be able to say that they control the city. The Imperial City was an interesting idea and I don't think that style of play should just be removed, but it certainly shouldn't be connected in any way to the War at large in anything remotely resembling its current form."most players go here to earn tel var and gank players. force upper to interact with lower? once again, no one will pvp except for a chance to win gear or be on a leaderboard or for kills.

    "The fact is that so long as the city is overrun with Daedra it makes perfect sense for it to be separate from the War, it was never more than a symbol anyway. Controlling the land around it is what makes someone an Emperor, which is why ZOS made it work the way they did with taking the keeps around it. The Daedra only took it over because it was relatively undefended because of the chaos after Varen did his thing, and it's the center of Tamriel with walls and a moat around it, what better place for Molag Bal to use as a base of operations for enacting his plan to suck the world into Coldharbour from? And frankly even if they implemented every change I suggested, having more things that people need to pay attention to could well only serve to divide our forces and limit our ability to fight everywhere else, so your suggestion about locking access to the city is especially ill-conceived."you really cant get over the Daedra being there can you lol. The city lockdown mechanic was to promote vanila cyro interacting with being in IC. if you are in IC you cant be in reg cyro, so it makes sense to introduce ways to force players to keep moving and promote interesting ways to pvp instead of only going between keeps or just farming telvar.

    "It needs to be freely accessed by Transit Shrine from any keep adjacent to the city, locking access without controlling 5 of the surrounding keeps just ensures that fewer people will go there since accessing it is so difficult, and also ensure that the war effort is that much more imbalanced because all anyone needs to do is stop the enemy team from controlling 5 keeps and they won't be able to access the city at all. That would ensure greater imbalance, not less, if anything in the city afforded any benefit to the players controlling it."the control mechanic was only the faction inner home keeps. For DC its Ales and Ash, with Ash serving as the keep closest to the sewer entrance. If IC and Cyro are to function as one, the city should be accessed by the bridges to promote additional ways to enter the city

    "All of this just sounds like too much effort for too little reward, especially since the changes required to make the city a proper part of the fight would ruin the city for those who like it as it is, and I frankly do like it as it is, just not that it shares a population with the outside campaign. It's an interesting place and don't think it should change, just be made the separate place with separate gameplay that it always should have been, and all the better for people who aren't interested in AvA but who still like to do some PvP with PvE thrown in."once again, EMP, leaderboards, and gear are currently the only pvp systems promoting pvp play. If you separate it from general pvp, youll be doing the following: promoting pve or gank pvp only, separating the PVP from the game instead of thinking of ways to introduce it, and without a leaderboard or way to promote pvp youll be stuck with pve players that cannot pvp and that lack of challenge with discourage pvp since it would create the same situation pvp players feel when they have to interact with NPC content; it feels like fighting a pincushion.

    "Force"? If someone needs to be forced to pvp...I don't want them by my side or even against me on the field. You either love pvp or you don't. You either love pve or you don't. I for one hate it. I detest it. I hate crafting and farming mats and making stuff and doing the same dungeons over and over. I like the ever changing, dynamic and unpredictable nature of pvp and the teamwork/social aspect of it. Let's be honest here, IC is a pve lovers paradise. And until and unless it has relevant objectives it will continue to be a pve lovers paradise, in a pvp area. And the bottom like is the pve'rs have PLENTY of places to go. Why they needed to devote one more area to pve is beyond me and actually makes my blood boil.

    We are all "forced" to PvP. Aside from guild groups forcing AP farms and defenses, players will choose the path of least resistances. In this case, the pvp experience is as follows:
    - inner ring keeps are the only dynamic objectives. if you dont protect them, the enemy crowns emp and gives their faction strong buffs. You are FORCED to engage in keep-keep pvp play.
    - keeps, resources, scrolls = only ways to control faction score. faction score helps you win gear, gear keeps a majority of players playing pvp. Score FORCES pvp play.
    - Epeen forum warriors, streamers, faction leads use faction score to promote faction identity and videos. faction loyalty and score doesnt force pvp but helps add a dynamic element to pvp (resembles a leaderboard).
    - no other areas on the pvp map add to the score, therefore you are forced to fight at the keeps.

    We are all forced to PVP. It is linear, boring, and at least our idea is using the easiest way to introduce pvp to a place thats only pve. This is side from coding difficult objective scenarios (which we all know ZOS will not implement easily on a limited budget.)

    PvP needs more dynamic elements.

    Pvp dynamic elements. Not more pve, kthnx.
    ~Every single night and every single day, I'mma do my thang, I'mma do my thang.~
  • Lucius_Aelius
    Lucius_Aelius
    ✭✭✭✭
    Minno wrote: »
    Minno wrote: »
    KenaPKK wrote: »
    IC does not need to be cut off. It needs more objectives, and those objectives need to impact the campaign.

    We can have dailies that say "kills x number of this class, and steal 5k stones".

    Then we can have "capture memorial, arena and arboretum district's and hold for 30 minutes.". They can pick the district's that present the most challenging and have it set as global announcement like they do when emp is crowded to promote district PvP.

    The district's themselves need additional flags to punish zerging in one spot. Or the the district's themselves give a separate buff or the flags in each district can be attached to a grouping that lets players target them (control all house flags and receive additional guards at all faction flags etc.)

    Just some open thoughts.

    No offense but that sounds weak and not very compelling at all, nothing I can imagine would be remotely compelling without drastically and completely redesigning Imperial City from the ground up, and I along with many others like it the way it is and don't think it should be changed except to be separated, how about arguing against some of the points I made in my last posts if you want to convince us otherwise?

    See below in bold :

    1) "As others have said, Imperial City is just too different a playstyle for it to mesh well with the outside campaign, and your ideas frankly sound horribly imbalanced to me and not the least bit helpful for anyone besides whichever Zerg is larger. For one thing there is just too much PvE in Imperial City, it's okay for its own instance but Imperial City style play was and is absolutely not what I signed up for, the Alliance War is a strictly PvP thing with only minimal non-player combatants on resources and the like. Sieging keeps and taking scrolls is what this game's AvA war was and is all about, and it should stay that way." Different playstyles is good for the health of any game. Separating the playstyles is not hte answer either (unless you want pve completely removed from pvp. TBH the best time for pvp in this game was when PVE players were forced to do PVP to achieve the item sets (ravenger, MT, etc.). So aside from gear how else can you MAKE people pvp? Leaderboards and gear are the quickest ways (EMP and AP points/top leaderboard with a gear reward are still the only factors in forcing people to PVP everyday. if these didn't exist no one would pvp.

    "And have you seen Imperial City lately? That place is an absolute mess, overrun by Daedra and rogue Imperials, and it makes absolutely no sense that anyone could be considered as controlling it without it being cleaned up and not have Daedra all over. Just because you happen to control a few flags, you think that should count the same as an Emperor for their team? That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard, controlling a few flags with no walls around them that takes so little effort and also still leaves the entire actual city under Daedra control means nothing, you can't be said to control *** without wiping the Daedra out completely, anything else is nonsense. That's like saying you should control a Keep if every NPC inside the keep were a Daedra, that is nonsense, you don't control *** unless your soldiers are completely in control."It is a mess if you think of it as a PVP-park ride. In some recent changes brian wheeler was quoted as looking to add life to pvp environments to add a dynamic atmosphere. IC achieves this but the following mechanics; a patrolling boss, NPC's engaging with little weak NPC humans, daily quests to interact with those NPCS. From a storyline aspect, the deadra and imperials no longer make sense. You can make the alliance war make sense but adding patrolling faction guards that engage in NPCS yet can attack players. You can enable a "captain boss" with a chance to drop IC gear or motifs. but all this stuff is minor and without a leaderboard, its essentially just a PVE land where you go to pretend you are a bully stealing lunchmoney. IT MUST BE TIED TO THE ALLIANCE SCORE TO BE CONSIDERED PVP.

    "Trying to mesh Imperial Ctiy together with the outside campaign would require that Imperial City be completely redesigned and the Daedra completely removed, with the walls and doors of the districts needing to be sieged down like anywhere else. Basically turn each District into it's own keep, and if you don't control a district you can't enter it at all without sieging into it. And the only NPC's being Soldiers from the Alliance who controls it, again it makes no sense for anyone to be said to be controlling anything so long as the Daedra are everywhere, they're the ones in control not us and you're a damn fool if you think otherwise."sub daedra with alliance factions. that handles the point where you cant get over the NPC factor limiting your pvp experience. locking and seiging the district walls is difficult and suggests the playstyle to match vanilla cyro (huge mistake since you wanted the playstyles to remain separate.) each flag should have a BOSS npc requiring coordination if oyu are worried about difficulty in capturing the flag. Adding a leaderboard with a chance to gain stats is currently the only known pvp mechanic that works. untill they design other objectives, there has been no other mechanic that forces people to pvp (aside from gear.)

    "Also, nothing like Tel Var Stones has any business affecting PvP like you suggest with a leaderboard and the top guy getting buffs against other players, not when Tel Var stones are primarily obtained by killing PvE enemies and/or Ganking players who fought lots of PvE enemies themselves, and no one deserves to get any standing in PvP for being good at Ganking or fighting PvE enemies."you get AP by taking resources. you get more AP by killing players. with tel var you get stones for killing NPCs/quests, but you get more tel var if you PVP. currently the two systems match and therefore should have scores that affect the general alliance war score. adding a emp mechanic to IC seems like a no brainer if you want to use precedence to promote pvp play (aside form gear). additionally you can add a chance to earn IC gear instead of upper cyro gear at end of campaign win.

    "And that doesn't even touch the Sewers, I have no idea what could be done with them frankly because PvE with a bit of PvP is what the Sewers are all about, and you can't really change them significantly without ruining them for the people who like them now. You can't siege anything from down there so there can't be connections to the districts without causing imbalance in the fight above, no point sieging anything if you can just pop up anywhere you want through the sewers and rush any district that way. And taking away the Daedra would defeat the point of them being there, there would basically be nothing to do down there besides the occasional skirmish."sewers remain a pve land. you should get dailies that reflect this and promote a place to farm tel var. center mechanic promotes faction tensions. due to this, sewers is the best pvp experience in IC; you can earn stones for gear, and get into pvp fights easily. no seige should be allowed in IC or sewers,.

    "And you need something that can be accomplished in the sewers because that's where most people in Imperial City go, and if they're not accomplishing objectives that contribute to winning then they're once again just taking up space and gimping their team above. And again you're not really controlling anything as long as the Daedra are everywhere, so they'd need to be removed for anyone to be able to say that they control the city. The Imperial City was an interesting idea and I don't think that style of play should just be removed, but it certainly shouldn't be connected in any way to the War at large in anything remotely resembling its current form."most players go here to earn tel var and gank players. force upper to interact with lower? once again, no one will pvp except for a chance to win gear or be on a leaderboard or for kills.

    "The fact is that so long as the city is overrun with Daedra it makes perfect sense for it to be separate from the War, it was never more than a symbol anyway. Controlling the land around it is what makes someone an Emperor, which is why ZOS made it work the way they did with taking the keeps around it. The Daedra only took it over because it was relatively undefended because of the chaos after Varen did his thing, and it's the center of Tamriel with walls and a moat around it, what better place for Molag Bal to use as a base of operations for enacting his plan to suck the world into Coldharbour from? And frankly even if they implemented every change I suggested, having more things that people need to pay attention to could well only serve to divide our forces and limit our ability to fight everywhere else, so your suggestion about locking access to the city is especially ill-conceived."you really cant get over the Daedra being there can you lol. The city lockdown mechanic was to promote vanila cyro interacting with being in IC. if you are in IC you cant be in reg cyro, so it makes sense to introduce ways to force players to keep moving and promote interesting ways to pvp instead of only going between keeps or just farming telvar.

    "It needs to be freely accessed by Transit Shrine from any keep adjacent to the city, locking access without controlling 5 of the surrounding keeps just ensures that fewer people will go there since accessing it is so difficult, and also ensure that the war effort is that much more imbalanced because all anyone needs to do is stop the enemy team from controlling 5 keeps and they won't be able to access the city at all. That would ensure greater imbalance, not less, if anything in the city afforded any benefit to the players controlling it."the control mechanic was only the faction inner home keeps. For DC its Ales and Ash, with Ash serving as the keep closest to the sewer entrance. If IC and Cyro are to function as one, the city should be accessed by the bridges to promote additional ways to enter the city

    "All of this just sounds like too much effort for too little reward, especially since the changes required to make the city a proper part of the fight would ruin the city for those who like it as it is, and I frankly do like it as it is, just not that it shares a population with the outside campaign. It's an interesting place and don't think it should change, just be made the separate place with separate gameplay that it always should have been, and all the better for people who aren't interested in AvA but who still like to do some PvP with PvE thrown in."once again, EMP, leaderboards, and gear are currently the only pvp systems promoting pvp play. If you separate it from general pvp, youll be doing the following: promoting pve or gank pvp only, separating the PVP from the game instead of thinking of ways to introduce it, and without a leaderboard or way to promote pvp youll be stuck with pve players that cannot pvp and that lack of challenge with discourage pvp since it would create the same situation pvp players feel when they have to interact with NPC content; it feels like fighting a pincushion.

    1. I'm not talking about removing PvE from the game, just having it not directly conflict with PvP the way it does now. Keeps and Scrolls are what AvAvA is all about, and any objectives added to the Campaigns need to not interfere with those objectives, which every suggestion for Imperial City I've heard would, including my own frankly. Also under no circumstances should anyone be forced to do anything they don't want to do, ideally anything people want for PvE should be obtainable in PvE and anything people want for PvP should be obtainable in PvP, which the game has been moving towards at least somewhat and that's a good thing, not a bad thing.

    2. Any notion of the Imperial City being controlled by anyone besides the Daedra is and will remain patently ridiculous so long as the Daedra roam free, they control it and no one else. And having any kind of leaderboards based on PvE gameplay affecting PvP is utterly imbalanced and can never be balanced, PvP is PvP and the only way to excell in PvP should be fighting other players. It's okay as you say to have NPC's roaming around here and there for atmosphere (and without them Cyrodiil would seem empty and hollow), but not as a primary focus of gameplay.

    3. Again, you're talking about fighting PvE enemies to excell or accomplish significant goals in PvP, combat against NPC's in PvP should always be a left to a minimum with things that need them, because you simply just can't expect players to be on every keep and resource all the time and it's unrealistic and impractical to have them completely undefended. And again you talk of forcing players to play PvP, which is simply a terrible and mean thing to do since some people absolutely abhor it and shouldn't be forced to play PvP if they don't want to (same with PvP players being forced to PvE in the city to advance their alliance in the war).

    4. Having the sewers be "PvE land" means everyone in the sewers is gimping their team by not contributing to the war effort, which is the entire problem with Imperial City being connected to the outside campaigns' populations to begin with. So no, that simply is unacceptable.

    5. I don't see your point here, yes players go to the Imperial City to earn Tel Var by either fighting NPC's or ganking players who are fighting NPC's, all of which makes no sense to have a leaderboard attached to it which in any way relates to the outside war effort. Taking keeps and Scrolls and fighting the players who are engaging in those activities are what the war effort is about, not Tel Var stones earned from PvE enemies who present no meaningful challenge to skilled players.

    6. The point about the Daedra being there and in control was directed at the person who suggested that the Districts should offer Alliance War points to the team in control of them, and I pointed out repeatedly that the Daedra are the only ones in control of Imperial City, and so long as they remain it will stay that way. Get rid of the Daedra and you can talk about someone else being in control, until then there's no argument to be made here, the Daedra control the city and the sewers beneath it and that's all there is to it. No bonus should be awarded to the Alliance War for taking a few flags defended by PvE enemies that are predictable and present no meaningful challenge to players who are skilled and prepared. Fighting other players should award success in PvP, nothing else. Obviously Keeps and Resources aren't always defended by players so you need NPC enemies to fill in, but that should always be the exception rather than a rule to success in the Alliance War.

    7. The problem with having more objectives on the city is that it's too separate as it is and there's not enough flow back and forth, for it to be practical you'd absolutely need to have a seamless transition between the city and the keeps outside the same way people travel between keeps, otherwise people get hyperfocused on one and neglect the other. And worse the players are divided and less able to take keeps and Scrolls, which is and should always remain the primary focus of the Alliance War no matter what other objectives are added. The city would need to be another stop on the transit network with people able to port in quickly to deal with a threat and then back out again to protect a keep under siege or whathaveyou.

    And again there would need to be meanful PvP based objectives in the city that have PvE enemies as a side thing and not something that is the focus of attention in any way, with Tel Var being something that doesn't really work in that setup at all.

    8. This again, the only reason anyone should ever be playing PvP is because they enjoy it, suggesting otherwise is outright idiotic and I cannot mince words about it, it's just stupid and mean to force people to do something they don't want to do just to obtain something they need to play properly doing what they do want to do. Let PvP be for players who want to be there, I don't understand how anyone could possibly think doing otherwise makes any kind of sense unless you just want easy prey to pick on and to not have a challenge, which I neither want myself nor support in any way.

    Kudos for at least trying to argue my points, not everyone would have bothered, but I just don't see any merit to your arguments and pretty much everything you've said is the same stuff I've already argued against and believe I've made solid points regarding that cannot simply be disregarded, I see no good reason to not let Imperial City be it's own thing and the players in the campaign be left to focus on the good fight without all that PvE *** thrown in that lots of players don't wsnt being a part of their PvP experience. So long as it remains connected as it is the populations will be divided and the ability to wage war will be compromised as a result, it simply cannot be avoided without radically changing everything about Imperial City or separating their populations so that people in the city don't take away valuable and necessary population space for the campaign at large. I really don't see why people are so opposed to it, the city would stay as the cool place it is with room to improve it and the Alliance War outside could go on and not be held back from players taking up space without being interested in contributing to the war effort, everybody wins and I can't see the downside.
    Edited by Lucius_Aelius on August 31, 2016 6:56PM
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  • fastolfv_ESO
    fastolfv_ESO
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    its already been stated early on IC cannot have any impact on cyro so that anyone without the DLC will not be left out, so most of this is wishful thinking. If you cannot have IC impact cyro it needs to be removed from it. Last night DC has a Q at 1am est with roughly 30-40 ppl up top. SO i poke my head into IC and we have not 1 not 2 but 3 raids of DC fighting in yell camping the middle. Was it intended to have 72 people just sitting in the center of sewers fighting themselves for the miniscule chance at a drop that many not even be able to drop due to bad programming?
    Edited by fastolfv_ESO on August 31, 2016 7:50PM
  • God_flakes
    God_flakes
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    its already been stated early on IC cannot have any impact on cyro so that anyone without the DLC will not be left out, so most of this is wishful thinking. If you cannot have IC impact cyro it needs to be removed from it. Last night DC has a Q at 1am est with roughly 30-40 ppl up top. SO i poke my head into IC and we have not 1 not 2 but 3 raids of DC fighting in yell camping the middle. Was it intended to have 72 people just sitting in the center of sewers fighting themselves for the miniscule chance at a drop that many not even be able to drop due to bad programming?

    By this same logic it is inherently unfair to have a DLC clog up pop caps for those of us pvp. I know I know I'm beating a dead horse.
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  • RinaldoGandolphi
    RinaldoGandolphi
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    IC is not just a pve paradise. In fact it "can be" more strategic pvp then up top

    Best example when I was farming bone shards back in the day some 3-4 EP would show up

    I would actually use the wondering bosses and npc as meat shields to kill people when I was outnumbered, it help even the odds when your face with 4-5 people alone if you played smart you could wipe people you normally would never have a chance in Cyrodiil do it can open opportunities in pvp you wouldn't have up top.

    At the end of the day IC could be really really good with a few very small tweaks. The mobs being able to interfere in fights can add new wrinkles to account for and also opens up other avenues for victory or escape.
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  • God_flakes
    God_flakes
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    IC is not just a pve paradise. In fact it "can be" more strategic pvp then up top

    Best example when I was farming bone shards back in the day some 3-4 EP would show up

    I would actually use the wondering bosses and npc as meat shields to kill people when I was outnumbered, it help even the odds when your face with 4-5 people alone if you played smart you could wipe people you normally would never have a chance in Cyrodiil do it can open opportunities in pvp you wouldn't have up top.

    At the end of the day IC could be really really good with a few very small tweaks. The mobs being able to interfere in fights can add new wrinkles to account for and also opens up other avenues for victory or escape.

    First and only tweak: remove it from Cyrodiil population.
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  • Minno
    Minno
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    IC is not just a pve paradise. In fact it "can be" more strategic pvp then up top

    Best example when I was farming bone shards back in the day some 3-4 EP would show up

    I would actually use the wondering bosses and npc as meat shields to kill people when I was outnumbered, it help even the odds when your face with 4-5 people alone if you played smart you could wipe people you normally would never have a chance in Cyrodiil do it can open opportunities in pvp you wouldn't have up top.

    At the end of the day IC could be really really good with a few very small tweaks. The mobs being able to interfere in fights can add new wrinkles to account for and also opens up other avenues for victory or escape.

    "Strategic PVE elements."
    We have it in vanilla cyro (keep guards).
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