Dodge Dodge Dodge Dodge Dodge

Beepbeep

I forgot to mention this is on PC NA Trueflame. As for lag in Cyrodil. Yes, a lot of lag. Everyone has that though.

I tried running several different heavy sets, and sure you last a bit longer, but for me it's a huge hit to DPS. I have yet to try reactive or black rose, just don't have the Tel Var stones atm. Should I really have to go heavy? Maybe, but I don't see why all of sudden that should be a basic requirement. It's just an indication of imbalance to me.

Right now, I just started running 5xTrans/5XAlch/2XTorugs/2Engine. I proc Trans and Alch on my off bar, Torugs on my main bar.

I assure you the 5 skills in a second is real. Sure, there are times when some hits are from DoTs, but plenty of times not. I assumed everyone has experienced being ganked like this?

As for L2P. Of course some of it is that. I am not the best PVPer, but I don't think I am the worst either. NBs one shotting from stealth happens to everyone. I watch it happen in front of my eyes on a regular basis. The more or less one shotting by 2Hs could easily be because I suck. Normally it's crit rush, dizzying swing followed by Dawnbreaker (and I am a vampire) and a reverse slash with some heavy/light attack in there too - probably with a prismatic enchant to boot. I am usually dead while my body is flying through the air before landing on the ground.

My biggest issue is with the all the dodging. No, it's not dodge rolling I am talking about. It's dodging all the range abilities repeatedly. "But, they can see it coming!" - Well, sure, some times. However, when it's basically zerg on zerg, I just don't see how someone can see everything that's happening around them. Not too mention when people run away with their backs turned and dodge 5 javelins in a row. I get a lot of Immune to stun as well. I assume that's from Immovable potions. I just happen to hit five different people all within that 15.7second immunity buff, right? Hmm, possibly, but it makes me wonder.

So sure, my post was a bit of complaint, but really it's my experience. I wanted to know if it really simply was that I am just a bad player or if this is what others experienced and perhaps indication of a potential problem.

Sandman929

Beepbeep wrote: »

I forgot to mention this is on PC NA Trueflame. As for lag in Cyrodil. Yes, a lot of lag. Everyone has that though.

I tried running several different heavy sets, and sure you last a bit longer, but for me it's a huge hit to DPS. I have yet to try reactive or black rose, just don't have the Tel Var stones atm. Should I really have to go heavy? Maybe, but I don't see why all of sudden that should be a basic requirement. It's just an indication of imbalance to me.

Right now, I just started running 5xTrans/5XAlch/2XTorugs/2Engine. I proc Trans and Alch on my off bar, Torugs on my main bar.

I assure you the 5 skills in a second is real. Sure, there are times when some hits are from DoTs, but plenty of times not. I assumed everyone has experienced being ganked like this?

As for L2P. Of course some of it is that. I am not the best PVPer, but I don't think I am the worst either. NBs one shotting from stealth happens to everyone. I watch it happen in front of my eyes on a regular basis. The more or less one shotting by 2Hs could easily be because I suck. Normally it's crit rush, dizzying swing followed by Dawnbreaker (and I am a vampire) and a reverse slash with some heavy/light attack in there too - probably with a prismatic enchant to boot. I am usually dead while my body is flying through the air before landing on the ground.

My biggest issue is with the all the dodging. No, it's not dodge rolling I am talking about. It's dodging all the range abilities repeatedly. "But, they can see it coming!" - Well, sure, some times. However, when it's basically zerg on zerg, I just don't see how someone can see everything that's happening around them. Not too mention when people run away with their backs turned and dodge 5 javelins in a row. I get a lot of Immune to stun as well. I assume that's from Immovable potions. I just happen to hit five different people all within that 15.7second immunity buff, right? Hmm, possibly, but it makes me wonder.

So sure, my post was a bit of complaint, but really it's my experience. I wanted to know if it really simply was that I am just a bad player or if this is what others experienced and perhaps indication of a potential problem.

Oh there's lots of problems, but none that stamina builds will admit to. Shuffle working too well is just the tip of the stamina imbalance problems.
Nightblade ganking? Well, that's really what Nightblades do, and what most of them build for...killing you in a few shots (btw, its confusing to say "one shot" when it's really 4-5 quickly).
But yeah, stamina damage and mitigation...dodging via Shuffle, not dodge rolling, is very imbalanced.

outsideworld76

It's the lag... time correlation in this game is totally wrong. They won't fix it because they have no clue and or respurces to do it. Please buy a new mount.... please.

FearlessOne_2014

incite wrote: »

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

Look dodge can get nerfed when damage shields become critable and non-stackable. Till then it's ESO: Dark Souls edition.

This one has had too much to drink

That one is just obviously trolling.

FearlessOne_2014

lolo_01b16_ESO wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

lolo_01b16_ESO wrote: »

Hm, from my experience magplars are the strongest class when it comes to fighting people who dodge a lot. Puncturing sweep and Radiant oppression are both undodgable. Additionally I don't have any problems with gankers on my templar. But I have 28k hp, 5 piece heavy and personally don't have many problems to break stuns in time.
Also getting hit by 5 skills in less than 1 sec is impossible. Either you have huge lag issues or you are overexaggerating. You can manage to hit someone with snipe, a bow heavy attack and poison injection at the same time due to different travel times of the projectiles, but that's it. Anything else is either procs or lag. And sure, it can be frustrating, if an enemy manages to proc widowmaker, red mountain and validreth all with one heavy attack, but the chance is quite low so most of the time he will fail to gank.

It's doable but not because of base game mechanics, its because of a bug that has yet to be removed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1YLzWXqcQ9U

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYdQqcmZtMo

[SNIP]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VG1LEDmyIZk

Can you do that intentionally? I saw such things happen aswell, but I always thought it's just because someone tries how many people you can stack on a flag before the guards die to a lack of air to breath.

Also, how can someone who publishes multiple videos where he exploits bugs to kill people in pvp not be banned? @ZOS_GinaBruno

ZOS allows this but perma-bans some people I know just for using old gear-exploits they have yet to get their accounts back. Kinda shady if you ask me. And the fact how these streamers think it's even funny. This is outrageous now, these people should be instantly banned just like the people you permanently banned from exploiting gear a little while ago.

smacx250

outsideworld76 wrote: »

It's the lag... time correlation in this game is totally wrong. They won't fix it because they have no clue and or respurces to do it. Please buy a new mount.... please.

That is concerning, because if lag can be advantages, it can will be abused: Lag Switch

Beepbeep

Oh there's lots of problems, but none that stamina builds will admit to. Shuffle working too well is just the tip of the stamina imbalance problems.
Nightblade ganking? Well, that's really what Nightblades do, and what most of them build for...killing you in a few shots (btw, its confusing to say "one shot" when it's really 4-5 quickly).
But yeah, stamina damage and mitigation...dodging via Shuffle, not dodge rolling, is very imbalanced.

Yes, sorry. By one-shot I basically mean I am dead before I can press a key in response. It's never one ability, but the series of abilities that hit within a second. I really don't think any class should be able to do this to an opponent that is generally equal in gear/CP. I don't want to turn it into a NB hate/nerf thread or anything, but the ability to kill someone and vanish before you can even press a key in response (being dead and all) is a bit OP no? I dunno.

smacx250 wrote: »

That is concerning, because if lag can be advantages, it can will be abused: Lag Switch

No clue if that' is actually what's going on but I suppose it's a possibility. I sure hope not. I see it's not a new accusation though.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/239845/lag-switch-know-how

disintegr8

I agree with OP and don't know whether it is me not knowing what I am doing or others making better use of skills or using tricks/cheats to get the better of me. If there was something I am doing wrong I'd really like to know but as soon as I get into close quarters with anyone, I know I am done for.

I have only just started in PVP but have more than 531 CP. and can put my characters in CP160 gear, all impenetrable, with 30k health and they still get wiped with a stun (from someone I did not see) followed by 4 or 5 hits before I can even break free from the stun.

I think the lag I get as soon as there are 10 people moving doesn't help (PS4 NA). Sometimes I get hit and before my character even responds to my button pressing I am suddenly surrounded and am being hit by 4 people and die.

CapuchinSeven

Komma wrote: »

I dont see dodge rolling as the problem. The problem is the people who dodge everything thrown at them without dodge rolling even once. It is usually the same people. Also the people who dodge even while locked down by a stun or while riding a horse.... Dodge should not be rng. Just gives excuses for the exploiters/hackers.

Abob wrote: »

It's just a 20% dodge chance, mate.

It's great to see shadows fighting.

Elder Shadows Online.

There is something off with shuffle, I run shuffle when I was running stamina and blur on my magic build and shuffle seems WAY WAY more effective, this is totally anecdotal so I'm willing to accept I'm wrong but fighting against and with shuffle seems totally different to fighting with and against blur.

The dodge chance of shuffle can seems crazy at times.

lolo_01b16_ESO wrote: »

Can you do that intentionally? I saw such things happen aswell, but I always thought it's just because someone tries how many people you can stack on a flag before the guards die to a lack of air to breath.

There have been arguments on these forums before about cooldown abuse and alike. Normally the same few people show up yelling that it's in everyone's imagination.

So I'll say the same thing here that I've said there, there are some less reputational forums around the internet dedicated to breaking games and there macro slice is talked about like it's repeatable (my guess would be a lag switch) as well as some other health desync methods like using emotes and so on.

We're talking about an MMO where people have worked out how to fly, I mean, we're talking about a game in 2016 that Cheat Engine works on, I wouldn't dismiss anything.

WuffyCerulei

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

EDITED FOR PROFANITY

Surgee

susmitds wrote: »

If you are getting one-shotted then you must have only 16k HP and no impen, the highest NB one hit skill is Incap Strike, which can get 16k on people without impen with max damage gank build.

Nah. Yesyerday my wife got 1 shotted by NB AOE from sneak attack (yea and few others that were standing next to her). She did not have impenetrable gear, but almost 19k hp. So no that's simply not true what you just said.

After the attack, NB happily wandered off, dodging everything thrown at him and vanished.

smacx250

A 20% chance to dodge any given attack gives the following probabilities for dodging consecutive attacks (passive dodge only - no dodge rolls thrown in):

# Consecutive = probability
1 = 20% (1/5)
2 = 4% (1/25)
3 = .8% (1/125)
4 = .16% (1/625)
5 = .032% (1/3125)

Does this seem about right for what people are experiencing?

Stoopid_Nwah

Surgee wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

If you are getting one-shotted then you must have only 16k HP and no impen, the highest NB one hit skill is Incap Strike, which can get 16k on people without impen with max damage gank build.

Nah. Yesyerday my wife got 1 shotted by NB AOE from sneak attack (yea and few others that were standing next to her). She did not have impenetrable gear, but almost 19k hp. So no that's simply not true what you just said.

After the attack, NB happily wandered off, dodging everything thrown at him and vanished.

It's pretty easy to hit insane numbers on players who have <20k health and don't wear any impen. You have to keep in mind that gankers have insane burst and utilize the shadow mundus.

I'm assuming you're talking about a magicka nb as you said AOE (soul tether maybe? or proxy possibly if you had a big enough group around?), so they may have had double take up which also gives major evasion.

In situations like this however, AOE AOE AOE, have a magicka shield up if you're magicka based, wear impen, get your health up, slot inner light or radiant, and most importantly, watch your surroundings-if you see a shade or someone is being hit with consistent arrow attacks, you have a ganker preparing nearby. But honestly, I don't slot a major evasion skill and that doesn't stop me from ganking and getting away from the majority of groups and players.

I think the bigger problem is CP plus the fact that there are stam sets that allow ganking/high burst + sustain + reasonable resistances and then 99% of stam builds also use shuffle. I really do think if you're going to gank, you should have to have some sort of trade-off.

Toc de Malsvi

lolo_01b16_ESO wrote: »

Can you do that intentionally? I saw such things happen aswell, but I always thought it's just because someone tries how many people you can stack on a flag before the guards die to a lack of air to breath.

Also, how can someone who publishes multiple videos where he exploits bugs to kill people in pvp not be banned? @ZOS_GinaBruno

I don't know that it is directly repeatable in the sense that you can guarantee it will happen, I believe from everything I've seen on it that it is generally related to gap closer's bugging out specifically Crit Rush but I believe it happens with others as well.

I think what players have found is if gap closing repeatedly there is a chance to bug out for a second which allows you to then spam skills that will all hit within 1 second or so once the server re-adjusts for the bug and tries to catch up.

I have noticed similar behavior with both Ambush and Focused Charge, where players seemed to be lagging out then I was struck by several attacks at once.

The best thing I've found is that if someone appears to be lagging out while in a charge animation to start spamming dodge roll. I haven't put enough time into trying to record and test this to see if it even matters if you dodge roll or not. Or to see if I could reproduce similar results with other gap closer's.

a1i3nz

That's why we have Jesus beam. Launch a dark flare and let the beam rip. Funny they'll be here QQ starting threads about it later.

I suggest going full blown cheddar. Wear transmutation and malubeth and they'll be screaming CANCER CANCER (since that's the word of the month here in ESO)

tonemd

The vicious death, Prox Det, Soul Tether, Sap combo is still real but it is one trick. Don't sit around on your horse at a resource with your food buff down. Easiest way to get your group killed. Much harder to pull off in active combat because AOEs will pull NBs out of stealth so they won't get that bonus. Having one person run mage light helps, a very little bit.

This is usually a magblade trick though (Prox Det) so not sure about the dodging away part. They usually dodge and vanish.

CapuchinSeven

Stoopid_Nwah wrote: »

I think the bigger problem is CP plus the fact that there are stam sets that allow ganking/high burst + sustain + reasonable resistances and then 99% of stam builds also use shuffle. I really do think if you're going to gank, you should have to have some sort of trade-off.

This is the problem and why there is zero balance.

But it's not just CP points (as you say), on Azua my magic nightblade sits at around 1400 regen, my spell damage is 2500 and max magicka sits at around 35k, Soul Harvest tool tip hits for 10k (remember no CP points on this map so things look a lot lower), but on the same map my stamina nightblade friend sits at 2000+ regen, 3k weapon daamge, 35k stamina and the same Ultimate hits for around 13k on the tool tip.

Soooooo better regen and better damage...

And it's not just his gear as my gear is all 160cp with yellow enchants AND when I played stamina I could run the same stats.

There is zero balance, there is zero downside to playing stamina (and when defenders say there is, what they mean is there is a slight adjustment to your playstyle but little to no downside for huge amounts of damage).

Stoopid_Nwah

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

Stoopid_Nwah wrote: »

I think the bigger problem is CP plus the fact that there are stam sets that allow ganking/high burst + sustain + reasonable resistances and then 99% of stam builds also use shuffle. I really do think if you're going to gank, you should have to have some sort of trade-off.

This is the problem and why there is zero balance.

But it's not just CP points (as you say), on Azua my magic nightblade sits at around 1400 regen, my spell damage is 2500 and max magicka sits at around 35k, Soul Harvest tool tip hits for 10k (remember no CP points on this map so things look a lot lower), but on the same map my stamina nightblade friend sits at 2000+ regen, 3k weapon daamge, 35k stamina and the same Ultimate hits for around 13k on the tool tip.

Soooooo better regen and better damage...

And it's not just his gear as my gear is all 160cp with yellow enchants AND when I played stamina I could run the same stats.

There is zero balance, there is zero downside to playing stamina (and when defenders say there is, what they mean is there is a slight adjustment to your playstyle but little to no downside for huge amounts of damage).

Yuck. I don't know, I can't bring myself to play stam even though I know it's quite obviously stronger now, and I feel like I'd have more interesting gear sets to try out.

I doubt balance will ever be a thing. Previously magicka dominated. Now it has flipped, and the funny thing is that it wasn't some gradual change, but rather an overnight "oh btw stamina is OP now, bye sorcs".

Perhaps...#softcaps would help in balancing?

Armitas

I like breaking free from invisible CCs, then walking forward for 6 seconds then getting teleported back to where I broke free by a meteor that knocks me down. Its a fun little mini game like that one you play when you try to slot siege in combat. That one is also a lot of fun. Kinda like that old Chinese game where you try to take the quarter out of the ninjas hand. ZOS is so fast but sometimes I win.

CapuchinSeven

Stoopid_Nwah wrote: »

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

Stoopid_Nwah wrote: »

I think the bigger problem is CP plus the fact that there are stam sets that allow ganking/high burst + sustain + reasonable resistances and then 99% of stam builds also use shuffle. I really do think if you're going to gank, you should have to have some sort of trade-off.

This is the problem and why there is zero balance.

But it's not just CP points (as you say), on Azua my magic nightblade sits at around 1400 regen, my spell damage is 2500 and max magicka sits at around 35k, Soul Harvest tool tip hits for 10k (remember no CP points on this map so things look a lot lower), but on the same map my stamina nightblade friend sits at 2000+ regen, 3k weapon daamge, 35k stamina and the same Ultimate hits for around 13k on the tool tip.

Soooooo better regen and better damage...

And it's not just his gear as my gear is all 160cp with yellow enchants AND when I played stamina I could run the same stats.

There is zero balance, there is zero downside to playing stamina (and when defenders say there is, what they mean is there is a slight adjustment to your playstyle but little to no downside for huge amounts of damage).

Yuck. I don't know, I can't bring myself to play stam even though I know it's quite obviously stronger now, and I feel like I'd have more interesting gear sets to try out.

I doubt balance will ever be a thing. Previously magicka dominated. Now it has flipped, and the funny thing is that it wasn't some gradual change, but rather an overnight "oh btw stamina is OP now, bye sorcs".

Perhaps...#softcaps would help in balancing?

The reason, as I see it could be wrong, magic was where it was when the game opened because it was meant to be the dominant stat, the game was clearly built as a class game with you using magic class abilities and then using stamina abilities to fill in gaps that your play style/class was suffering with (maybe you needed a ranged snare for example so you'd use DW, or a charge so you'd slot a 2H and so on).

People whined. A lot. As someone who was running a bow build when the game opened there were a lot of people that just couldn't accept that this game wasn't Skyrim and they needed to play the game they were playing.

So we ended up with all stamina builds and class abilities using stamina (as a Magblade I can respec to stamina and slot the same class skills I have on my main bar only now they use stamina and hit harder), we now have a build that can pretty much do everything a magic build can do, only hit harder, dodge for longer and save its magic for the odd utility.

When a magic build runs out of stamina, it's dead. When a stamina build runs out of magicka it just has to wait a few secs between dodge rolls. I don't dare slot a stamina ability on my magic build, one drop of caltrops and I'm boned if I need to breakfree, I can't say the same for my stamina build which slots fear, cloak etc.

The only real way I see this getting fixed now it's all gotten this messed up, outside of a hard stamina nerf, is if dodge roll and breakfree run off your higher stat, with an animation change to show a more magical effect. Other than adding another resource for dodge and breakfree (which I hate the idea of) or nerfing stamina hard I don't see the choice.

Please note, before anyone starts ripping into me about that idea, it's not like I like it that much either. I just don't really see how this is ever going to get fixed without a big hit to stamina and it seems ZOS's idea is.. "MAW ARMOUR SETZ!".

incite

FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »

incite wrote: »

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

Look dodge can get nerfed when damage shields become critable and non-stackable. Till then it's ESO: Dark Souls edition.

This one has had too much to drink

That one is just obviously trolling.

No no im deadserious, people who say shields must be critable, either have an iq of a 4 year old or is drunk af, hence my post

krathos

incite wrote: »

FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »

incite wrote: »

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

Look dodge can get nerfed when damage shields become critable and non-stackable. Till then it's ESO: Dark Souls edition.

This one has had too much to drink

That one is just obviously trolling.

No no im deadserious, people who say shields must be critable, either have an iq of a 4 year old or is drunk af, hence my post

Shields should be removed from the caster as soon as I look at them.