Crafting Statistics - Writs

helediron

After SotH patch i followed writ logistics for 11 days with 12 writ crafters. The characters did nothing else than making writs and collecting survey maps and farming resources between survey maps. These numbers DO include some farming that belong naturally to survey map collecting.

Daily gains/consumptions:


So it is 11 days with 12 characters totallin 132 characterdays. Days were from 8th August to 18th August. E.g. 8.8 (8th August) 12 characters consumed 556 Rubedite Ingots and collected 259 Rubedite Ores. The whole period consumed 6093 Rubedite Ingots. The average ingot consumption was 553,9 per day and 46,2 per character each day.While 46,2 ingots were consumed, 32,7 ores were gained.

The last farm column needs some explanation. The numbers include farming, which varies from day to day. I classified the amount of farming:
- none just few flowers, eh, really under ten, honestly!
- farm+ picked some resources from survey area to area but left many unpicked.
- farm++ picked all nodes between survey areas, moving nearly straight line between areas.
- farm+++ Picked all nodes between areas and made some sidetours. Couldn't resist...

The next step is naturally to calculate daily gain/loss
Daily net:


Explanation: e.g. the first day makes -556 Rubedite ingot loss. When refining ores, about 85% of them turn to ingots, so there was 0,85 * 259 = 220 ingot gain. I also counted in Intrisic materials. It's not visible in the tables, but i got 16 intrisic items that day. I divide the number by four, giving four to ingots, four to leathers, four to clothes and four to woodworking. I tested deconstructing ten of each, and averatge material gain was 5. So the gain in ingots is 16 / 4 * 5 = 20. The total is -556 + 22+ + 20 = -316. Daily loss with 12 character was -316. That loss is per each character -26.3.

Average Results:
When 11 days averaged the numbers, the gain/loss from gear writs is:
- Blacksmithing: -16,3 daily loss per character.
- Clothing: +4 daily gain per character.
- Woodworking: -11,5 daily loss per character.

Suggestions:
Since IC highest crafting gear has been the material sink in ESO. Now writs are turning to time and material sing for blacksmithing and woodworking. Farmers like me can keep up with that paec, but i believe casual players will stop doing these writs. They have to choose between gear and writs.

Both blacksmith survey nodes and woodworking nodes give 6..8 mats per node. Clothing nodes give 9..11 and furry traps even more. I suggest increasing BS and WW nodes to give same as clothing, that is 9..11 mats per node. Blacksmithing is most unsustainable. There is one quest which requires helmet, 2 daggers and 2 shoulders totalling to 59 mats. This should be reduced to 1 helmet, 1 shoulder and 1 dagger. Because it is done every third day, the average consumption drops one third of the difference bringing it to same level as others.

Note: these numbers DO include farming, so they are close to reality how writs are done. I didn't harvest at all for one day, and that day they all turned to net loss.
edit: typos.

helediron

The reward statistics are below. They are for one character per day when doing all writs.

The first "Per day" column shows the probability. E.g. you can get 0,33 Tempering Alloys means you don't get it every day. The second column is reciprocal of first showing how many days it takes to get one. It takes 3,1 days on average to get a Tempering Alloy.
- I think Tempering Alloy, Dreugh Wax, Rosin and Kuta all have same drop rate. The difference of numbers just show that RNG is toying with us and the sample is still too small.
- There is always green superb glyph in enchanting reward box.
- You can get from 0 to 3 Intricate items.
- "Srv map" is survey map count.
- "Map Kuta" is how many Kutas drop from Enchanting survey areas. Kutas from regular nodes were not counted in.

Reorx_Holybeard

Great stuff! Did you keep stat of the writ rewards? I've started to collect writs but only have a few dozen done so far which is not enough to get any decent stats from. It would be interesting to see what the drop % from writs for the various gold tempers and survey maps (and other things, but mainly those).

helediron

Reorx_Holybeard wrote: »

Great stuff! Did you keep stat of the writ rewards? I've started to collect writs but only have a few dozen done so far which is not enough to get any decent stats from. It would be interesting to see what the drop % from writs for the various gold tempers and survey maps (and other things, but mainly those).

I did. The reserved entry above is waiting those numbers. I need to double check and format them first.

SpAEkus

Do you have any Hirelings contributing to your raw mats that can feed the writ requirements?

BergisMacBride

Nice work and summation. This is exactly what I have been seeing as well. I agree with your suggestions. Personally, I've stopped doing the BS and WW writs altogether until if/when this is addressed. The chance for tempers, repair kits and glass fragments is just not worth the significant loss of materials.

helediron

SpAEkus wrote: »

Do you have any Hirelings contributing to your raw mats that can feed the writ requirements?

They all had 3/3 hirelings and mails were collected once per day. All hireling contributions are included in the daily gain/loss numbers.

SpAEkus

Thanks, I was hoping that Hireling adds might be enough to compensate but it doesn't.

helediron

Reward statistics are now on the second post.

Reorx_Holybeard

helediron wrote: »

Reward statistics are now on the second post.

Note: These values were calculated incorrectly. See my updated post somewhere below for the new values.

Thanks! So I took your writ reward chances and did a rough calculation on the input costs versus the reward costs. The reward costs are essentially just the market value of the items. For raw materials I calculate the average value of the refined material plus the relative chance of tempers from refining. Note that these are not exact values as I don't have many personal stats for writs at the moment (for example, for Blacksmithing I'm using an average of 50 materials/writ which is likely a little off). Provisioning reward doesn't include the Bervez/Frost items received which would bump it up a bit.

• Blacksmithing: 2500 gp cost, 1750 gp reward (-750 gp lost)
• Clothing: 2800 gp cost, 3000 gp reward (+200 gp gained)
• Woodworking: 400 gp cost, 600 gp reward (+200 gp gained)
• Enchanting: 75 gp cost, 950 gp reward (+875 gp gained)
• Alchemy: 60 gp cost, 650 gp reward (+590 gp gained)
• Provisioning: 5 gp cost, 250 gp reward (+245 gp gained)

So Enchanting, Alchemy, and Provisioning easily see a small net profit per writ on average. Clothing and Woodworking see a very small gain on average and Blacksmithing a notable loss on average. This matches the Blacksmithing loss that the OP observed. I assume the OP saw a Woodworking loss due to not factoring in potential profit from tempers from refined wood or perhaps my estimates are just a little off which would push it into a net loss over time.

I'd really like to see for Blacksmithing writs in particular, but also Clothing and Woodworking writs, is some sort of buff/tweak that would make them desirable and profitable to do. I know that ZOS doesn't control the market which makes an analysis like this variable but right now its basically a loss in both gold and time to do those writs....you're better off just selling the materials.

It used to be that the glass fragments you'd get would be worth something to your character or at least to the market, but Glass is now such an old style it no longer really has that value. I regularly see Glass Motifs selling for under 10k which means the seller is taking a noticeable loss (the resin alone costs 10k plus the fragment costs). Perhaps a chance to get more than the glass motif in writ rewards or chances to receive more raw materials from the surveys.

Reorx_Holybeard

Note: These values were calculated incorrectly. See my updated post somewhere below for the new values.

I took a look at the level 9 (Craglorn) smithing writ net rewards quickly. Currently I do the level 9 writs on one character to get rid of all my supply of CP140 materials and for a chance to get Nirncrux. With the lower cost of CP140 materials and the chance to get Nirn I was hoping for a larger net profit for doing those writs. I used a completely made up stat of 3% chance to get a Protent Nirncrux and 5% chance for a Fortified Nirncrux per survey (not unreasonable but it is likely different than this).

• Blacksmithing: 900 gp cost, 1800 gp reward (+900 gp profit)
• Clothing: 1400 gp cost, 2400 gp reward (+1000 gp profit)
• Woodworking: 700 gp cost, 1500 gp reward (+800 gp profit)

So a definite net profit of around 1000 gp per craft, or around +3000 gp per character per day on average. If you look at the time requirement, however, this doesn't compare well to other gold making techniques. Even assuming I can rush one character through the writ and survey gathering in 10 minutes that is only around 20k gold/hour. Not too bad but I can make 50-75k gold/hour just running around Craglorn and farming things and selling everything on a trader.

So, unfortunately, this also turns out to be a net loss to do the level 9 smithing writs, albeit less than the level 10 writs. You're far better off just going out and farming raw materials, refining them, and selling what you get. I'd love to see a unique reward added for the writs in the same way that Glass Fragments were a reward when originally introduced.

code65536

The one-mat-for-decon is what really kills the top tier writs. I get so much void-tier decon from dungeon drops that even with no harvest of that tier, I could easily support the old writs.

Arora

Suggestions:
Since IC highest crafting gear has been the material sink in ESO. Now writs are turning to time and material sing for blacksmithing and woodworking. Farmers like me can keep up with that paec, but i believe casual players will stop doing these writs. They have to choose between gear and writs.

Both blacksmith survey nodes and woodworking nodes give 6..8 mats per node. Clothing nodes give 9..11 and furry traps even more. I suggest increasing BS and WW nodes to give same as clothing, that is 9..11 mats per node. Blacksmithing is most unsustainable. There is one quest which requires helmet, 2 daggers and 2 shoulders totalling to 59 mats. This should be reduced to 1 helmet, 1 shoulder and 1 dagger. Because it is done every third day, the average consumption drops one third of the difference bringing it to same level as others.



________
Yeah. I would like to see more Clothing Surveys. I rarely get them. and Rube-do is hard to track down. I have a plethora of the rest but seeing as I run with all 7 medium its been a rough life. lol

helediron

@Reorx_Holybeard , great follow-up! I deliberately left these calculations out. I've seen that i am bad in that area. I never calculated the value of used materials, since i am completely self-sufficient. I do sometimes buy Tamriel empty from some mats if i fancy some testing scaled up to all crafters, and then the prices shoot up, so i have decided just not to bother with those calculations. Thank You.

undefeatdgaul

Reorx_Holybeard wrote: »

I took a look at the level 9 (Craglorn) smithing writ net rewards quickly. Currently I do the level 9 writs on one character to get rid of all my supply of CP140 materials and for a chance to get Nirncrux. With the lower cost of CP140 materials and the chance to get Nirn I was hoping for a larger net profit for doing those writs. I used a completely made up stat of 3% chance to get a Protent Nirncrux and 5% chance for a Fortified Nirncrux per survey (not unreasonable but it is likely different than this).

• Blacksmithing: 900 gp cost, 1800 gp reward (+900 gp profit)
• Clothing: 1400 gp cost, 2400 gp reward (+1000 gp profit)
• Woodworking: 700 gp cost, 1500 gp reward (+800 gp profit)

So a definite net profit of around 1000 gp per craft, or around +3000 gp per character per day on average. If you look at the time requirement, however, this doesn't compare well to other gold making techniques. Even assuming I can rush one character through the writ and survey gathering in 10 minutes that is only around 20k gold/hour. Not too bad but I can make 50-75k gold/hour just running around Craglorn and farming things and selling everything on a trader.

So, unfortunately, this also turns out to be a net loss to do the level 9 smithing writs, albeit less than the level 10 writs. You're far better off just going out and farming raw materials, refining them, and selling what you get. I'd love to see a unique reward added for the writs in the same way that Glass Fragments were a reward when originally introduced.

how the hell can you make 50-75k in an hour in craglorn? hahah Im broke as hell show me the way

Carbonised

Writs are already giving plenty of reward as it is.

5 minutes of your time and you get gold tempers as reward, intricate items to decon for more material, ornate to sell for gold, glass fragment and regular surveys that give you a plethora of mats as well as possible tempers from those mats. Not even mentioning provisioning, alchemy and enchanting which are straight givewaways of expensive stuff for the trash you use to make the items in the first place.

Wow, and you're complaining that writs are 'a sink'? Do you honestly believe that you should be able to do daily writs on every one of your 12 characters and reap in those huge amounts of rewards, and not even farm (or buy) material for writs for a second, between your short trip from the writ deposit to the survey? Wow...

Maybe you should do less statistics and actually spend some time harvesting nodes, that's what they're there for.

helediron

Carbonised wrote: »

Writs are already giving plenty of reward as it is.

5 minutes of your time and you get gold tempers as reward, intricate items to decon for more material, ornate to sell for gold, glass fragment and regular surveys that give you a plethora of mats as well as possible tempers from those mats. Not even mentioning provisioning, alchemy and enchanting which are straight givewaways of expensive stuff for the trash you use to make the items in the first place.

Wow, and you're complaining that writs are 'a sink'? Do you honestly believe that you should be able to do daily writs on every one of your 12 characters and reap in those huge amounts of rewards, and not even farm (or buy) material for writs for a second, between your short trip from the writ deposit to the survey? Wow...

Maybe you should do less statistics and actually spend some time harvesting nodes, that's what they're there for.

I publish the statistics because i can, and i have not seen elsewhere them with this large sample size. I do my own farming, thank you very much.

EVEN more statistics: It takes about 45 minutes to run all six writs with 12 characters. I gather the maps to bank and collect surveys usually twice per day. They produce more than one full set of maps per day. Collecting maps and farming to make the writs sustainable takes about two hours. On good days the daily time per character is close to 15 minutes, not 5 minutes. Sometimes maps pile up on a character and i need to make extra clearing runs. There are also days for preproduction.

How much writs should be a sink is a good topic, and came up already in PTS testing. When VR14 was the max, writs were the material sink. With VR16 ZOS made gear crafting the largest material sink. Second issue is the internal imbalance between different writs. That is very visible from the numbers. Feel free to continue, but please politely.

Carbonised

helediron wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

Writs are already giving plenty of reward as it is.

5 minutes of your time and you get gold tempers as reward, intricate items to decon for more material, ornate to sell for gold, glass fragment and regular surveys that give you a plethora of mats as well as possible tempers from those mats. Not even mentioning provisioning, alchemy and enchanting which are straight givewaways of expensive stuff for the trash you use to make the items in the first place.

Wow, and you're complaining that writs are 'a sink'? Do you honestly believe that you should be able to do daily writs on every one of your 12 characters and reap in those huge amounts of rewards, and not even farm (or buy) material for writs for a second, between your short trip from the writ deposit to the survey? Wow...

Maybe you should do less statistics and actually spend some time harvesting nodes, that's what they're there for.

I publish the statistics because i can, and i have not seen elsewhere them with this large sample size. I do my own farming, thank you very much.

EVEN more statistics: It takes about 45 minutes to run all six writs with 12 characters. I gather the maps to bank and collect surveys usually twice per day. They produce more than one full set of maps per day. Collecting maps and farming to make the writs sustainable takes about two hours. On good days the daily time per character is close to 15 minutes, not 5 minutes. Sometimes maps pile up on a character and i need to make extra clearing runs. There are also days for preproduction.

How much writs should be a sink is a good topic, and came up already in PTS testing. When VR14 was the max, writs were the material sink. With VR16 ZOS made gear crafting the largest material sink. Second issue is the internal imbalance between different writs. That is very visible from the numbers. Feel free to continue, but please politely.

Honestly I don't really care.

I've done writs every single day for more than half a year on my 1 character, and for very little time and mats invested, I have gotten huge returns of the aforementioned expensive goods.

Maybe your problem is that you're doing writs every day on 14 characters. I mean come on, don't you think that is going to take time? And yes, doing writs every day on 14 characters is going to cost you a lot of mats. Please do highlight all the insanely expensive things you get in return. An Alloy alone nets you about 11k on the EU/PC server, and both Rosin and Wax are skyrocketing in price.

I even fail to see the reason for this post. "Writs are a sink", no they're not. They are the actual expense you have to pay to get all the insanely rich rewards. And as I already pointed out, it doesn't even have to cost you a dime if you do your own node harvesting. "Writs don't give enough rewards" yeah, no. I mean you do the statistics, add up the costs of the stuff you put in (ruby mats) and the stuff you get out of it (gold tempers etc etc) and see which side is the larger one hm? "Writs take too long", well stop doing them on 14 friggin characters if it bores yo so much. It does indeed take me 5 mins to do a writ on my 1 character, the crafting itself is extremely fast and simplistic, and then it's a tp and short ride to the Orsinium dropoff. Don't fool me into thinking that's 15 minutes.

As for "internal inconsistency" well how about the "internal inconsistency" of Alloys being worth 3 x that of Rosin, and almost 4k more than Wax? That makes up for any difference in the material returns. Or what about ruby ash (and wooden tempers) being worth not even half that of blacksmithing and clothier? As long as all 3 materials have different values, there will be no consistency. What should they do, add more ruby woods and tempers to writ rewards? Everyone who understands a market knows that will drive prices down, not up.

So again, what's really the point of these fancy spreadsheets? Add up average costs of your input materials and your output rewards, and see if that doesn't come up vastly in your favour.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Thanks for all the work, OP. Nice to see someone actually based on FACTS, not "feelings" or "impressions".

I've stopped doing equipment writs too. Keep doing the consumable ones.

I wish @ZOS_RichLambert takes a few minutes looking at this thread.

Reorx_Holybeard

Carbonised wrote: »

helediron wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

Writs are already giving plenty of reward as it is.

5 minutes of your time and you get gold tempers as reward, intricate items to decon for more material, ornate to sell for gold, glass fragment and regular surveys that give you a plethora of mats as well as possible tempers from those mats. Not even mentioning provisioning, alchemy and enchanting which are straight givewaways of expensive stuff for the trash you use to make the items in the first place.

Wow, and you're complaining that writs are 'a sink'? Do you honestly believe that you should be able to do daily writs on every one of your 12 characters and reap in those huge amounts of rewards, and not even farm (or buy) material for writs for a second, between your short trip from the writ deposit to the survey? Wow...

Maybe you should do less statistics and actually spend some time harvesting nodes, that's what they're there for.

I publish the statistics because i can, and i have not seen elsewhere them with this large sample size. I do my own farming, thank you very much.

EVEN more statistics: It takes about 45 minutes to run all six writs with 12 characters. I gather the maps to bank and collect surveys usually twice per day. They produce more than one full set of maps per day. Collecting maps and farming to make the writs sustainable takes about two hours. On good days the daily time per character is close to 15 minutes, not 5 minutes. Sometimes maps pile up on a character and i need to make extra clearing runs. There are also days for preproduction.

How much writs should be a sink is a good topic, and came up already in PTS testing. When VR14 was the max, writs were the material sink. With VR16 ZOS made gear crafting the largest material sink. Second issue is the internal imbalance between different writs. That is very visible from the numbers. Feel free to continue, but please politely.

Honestly I don't really care.

I've done writs every single day for more than half a year on my 1 character, and for very little time and mats invested, I have gotten huge returns of the aforementioned expensive goods.

...

So again, what's really the point of these fancy spreadsheets? Add up average costs of your input materials and your output rewards, and see if that doesn't come up vastly in your favour.

As for your last point, that is *exactly* what we're doing in order to determine whether writs are beneficial for us to do. And it turns out that the smithing writs don't give a good return on time/materials invested compared to other activities. You are more than welcome to enjoy doing writs but for myself it boils down to two options:

1. Do smithing writs/surveys for 15 minutes and gain a net 5k gold/hour (if you're lucky)
2. Sell my refined materials I would of used for the writs and run around gathering nodes for 15 minutes and gain a net of 50k/hour (on average)

The margin of profit for the smithing writs these days as I calculate it is perilously close to 0. That is I could spend 1 hour doing writs on all my characters and end up making a net of 0 gold (that is the cost of materials used equals the cost of materials received) which is definitely not a good use of my time. Yes, I might get lucky one day and get all surveys plus multiple gold tempers plus glass fragments but I'm more interested in the average return over a long period of time.

Another poster was asking how I estimated a value of 50k/hour in Craglorn...its just a simple matter of running all around the zone harvesting/looting/killing everything you see (mostly the former). Raw materials are refined and then you sell everything. Of course this assumes you *can* sell everything and that might take time to get your money out of it. Also, if you're lucky and get multiple Nirncrux/Kuta you should be able to easily beat that value.

Carbonised

Reorx_Holybeard wrote: »

The margin of profit for the smithing writs these days as I calculate it is perilously close to 0.

An ordinary crafting writ for Blacksmithing requires 41ish Rubedite. Rubedite has an avg. price of 49 gold per ingot. 49 x 41 = 2009 in expenses.

As the OP writes in his own post, the chance for an Alloy is about 33 %, one out of 3. That means you have to spend materials worth 6027 gold in order to get 1 Alloy worth 10700.

On top of that you get the gold from the writs, the ornate and intricate items, the possible surveys, that again gain you raw materials and possible tempers.

How on earth can you call that "perilously close to 0 profit", even if you only got the Alloy 1 times out of 3 and nothing else, it's still an easy net gain.

Even on the writs that require more rubedite (59 ingots), the math is the same, large profits.

ELDARTHVADER

I dont know i craft and play to play! this just feels like work!

Just Play!

Reorx_Holybeard

Carbonised wrote: »

Reorx_Holybeard wrote: »

The margin of profit for the smithing writs these days as I calculate it is perilously close to 0.

An ordinary crafting writ for Blacksmithing requires 41ish Rubedite. Rubedite has an avg. price of 49 gold per ingot. 49 x 41 = 2009 in expenses.

As the OP writes in his own post, the chance for an Alloy is about 33 %, one out of 3. That means you have to spend materials worth 6027 gold in order to get 1 Alloy worth 10700.

On top of that you get the gold from the writs, the ornate and intricate items, the possible surveys, that again gain you raw materials and possible tempers.

How on earth can you call that "perilously close to 0 profit", even if you only got the Alloy 1 times out of 3 and nothing else, it's still an easy net gain.

Even on the writs that require more rubedite (59 ingots), the math is the same, large profits.

Ack! I knew something wasn't right and your post made it more clear. There was a silly spreadsheet error so the values I originally posted are wrong. I'll update them once I fix the error.

Reorx_Holybeard

So it turns out I made a bunch of calculation errors in my original posts which just goes to show how important it is to double-check your work and challenge the results if they don't seem correct. I'll post the spreadsheets I used tomorrow so people can find and correct any other errors I may have made but the updated results are as below. I apologize for any confusion my original stats caused (it confused me too).

Note that the following stats are average profits/costs/rewards you would see from one character performing each writ for one day:

Level 10 Writs

1. Blacksmithing: 2300 gp profit (4800 gp reward, 2500 gp cost)
2. Clothing: 2500 gp profit (5300 gp reward, 2800 gp cost)
3. Woodworking: 1600 gp profit (2000 gp reward, 400 gp cost)
4. Enchanting: 2800 gp profit (2900 gp reward, 100 gp cost)
5. Alchemy: 1300 gp profit (1400 gp reward, 100 gp cost)
6. Provisioning: 900 gp profit (905 gp reward, 5 gp cost)
7. Net Average Profit for x6 Writs/Day: 11.4k

Level 9 Writs

1. Blacksmithing: 3900 gp profit (4800 gp reward, 900 gp cost)
2. Clothing: 3300 gp profit (4700 gp reward, 1400 gp cost)
3. Woodworking: 2200 gp profit (2900 gp reward, 700 gp cost)
4. Net Average Profit for x6 Writs/Day: 13k

Some notes and comments:

• I used the MasterMerchant market prices from PC/NA. Once I release the spreadsheet you can make a copy and modify it with prices from your server if different.
• The reward for Provisioning only counts the Psjiic fragments you get. I don't have good stats for any other rewards but it should increase the reward/profit a little bit.
• All crafts show a notable and roughly similar profit.
• I don't have any stats for Level 9 enchanting writs so I estimated a profit of 1500 gp/day for now.
• The Level 9 Craglorn writs may be a bit more profitable due to the chance of getting Nirncrux. I seem to get Nirn pretty commonly from writ surveys but don't have an accurate number on the actual chance which would affect the profit level (more data is needed).

Based on the estimated and more correct profits now I'm reconsidering if they are worth it. If I do it for 4 characters it takes me at least an hour for the complete process (writs plus survey gathering on one character) which works out to an average rate of 50k per hour/day which is a good rate, especially considering I'm not competing with anyone and I can harvest random nodes while I survey hunt for more profit.

Reorx_Holybeard

Here's the link for the spreadsheet on Google Docs:

ESO Writ Statistics

I had to clean it up a fair bit which was part of the source of the initial error and why I didn't spot it. Based on the updated data, however, I've started to do writs again when I have the time and will as they are definitely profitable. Especially if you can do them on multiple characters and transfer the survey maps to one character to make it considerably faster. You may well be able to make more money from just harvesting but writs have the bonus of being private which means you don't have to compete with finding harvest nodes with the entire zone.

Also an interesting observation is that the Craglorn level 9 writs may be a little more profitable than the level 10 ones. This is partly due to the low cost of level 9 materials even though you are using more of them and partly due to being able to find Nirncrux while doing the writs. I just may convert some of my crafting alts to level 9 for a while and see how it goes.

If you notice (another) error in my stats or calculations just let me know. Feel free to make a copy of the spreadsheet and play around with the numbers yourself. Different servers have different markets which will affect the writ profitability up or down some.