Hundings Rage vs TBS

teladoy

Hello everybody,

yesterday I crafted almost both sets for my VR 110 and I realize something that is contradictory to what many people post usually.

I know that hunding's rage is the set that for rule is the prefered or the best for stamina dps, but yesterday I realize that, in exception of the other stats like max stamina or critic chance, it doesn't give more weapon damage than the TBS with the boon of the warrior.

I crafted 5 pieces of TBS and 4 of HR, to all my parts I put the trait Divines and upgrade it to epic and then I saw it, that the weapon damage that the boon of the warrior was giving to me, was superior in comparance to the hundings rages if I would craft it complete (you can see in grey how much it would give).

We are talking about 270 against 240 something weapon damage.

So i dont understand how can be possible that the HR could be better, if we think that I can also take a second Mundus effect, like more max stamina, more critic chance, or more critic damage, while with HR I would not be abble.

In ESO there is no better gear, all gears are better for some thing or another, and or for some situation or another, but talking from the point of view of "damage", it should be impossible that the hundings rage set would output more damage than the TBS... but somes still say, that it is like that.

I would like to know why and in where i fail with my calculation.

ArchMikem

I think it's not so much the 5pc bonus that you're getting, its the 2, 3, and 4 you're sacrificing. Twice Born only gives you one bonus of max stamina and health each, while instead you could get a set like Gladiator that increases your Critical and Damage as well.

But when it comes to actual Math, I don't go anywhere near it. My brain would hurt.

Skinzz

Hundings is good because it provides reliable weapon damage and crit and goes well with any stam set up. Most people use twice born for thief and shadow fr crit builds. Plus you dont wanna use TBS in pvp because impen is not what u want on it.

bomba00

HR is not better... For solo playing game style you would go for night mothers, if you are templar or nightblade u can also consider TBS ( The thief and The shadow mundus). For a organized group content like trials, where theres already one player wearing night mothers and 3-4 players with warhorn the best choice would still be TBS upon hundings...

HR is not a bad set, but theres more optimal choices for pve content.

teladoy

Yes i understand everything what you say guys, but all what you say is inside of a determined context, but I'm talking in general.

I know that people uses TBS to do one shot builds with high critic chance and damage, but in Cyro everybody has impenetrable.

Or that also they craft mothers gaze with warhorn to do trials, I saw the video of Deltias also..

No, I'm talking of a result, I'm saying that TBS with the boon of The Warrior gives more weapon damage that the last bonus of the Hunding's rage set.

So solo or in team, or in trials, dungeons, pvp, or etc, the TBS should give and output more damage, indepent of what we have in the team.

Trublz

Curious about this as well.
Stam DK here. I use 5 HR and 4 NMG. Is this optimal or is TBS better????

DRXHarbinger

teladoy wrote: »

Yes i understand everything what you say guys, but all what you say is inside of a determined context, but I'm talking in general.

I know that people uses TBS to do one shot builds with high critic chance and damage, but in Cyro everybody has impenetrable.

Or that also they craft mothers gaze with warhorn to do trials, I saw the video of Deltias also..

No, I'm talking of a result, I'm saying that TBS with the boon of The Warrior gives more weapon damage that the last bonus of the Hunding's rage set.

So solo or in team, or in trials, dungeons, pvp, or etc, the TBS should give and output more damage, indepent of what we have in the team.

Only at CP110. Warrior is a flat bonus regardless of level. It's about 210 weapon damage. Once you hit cp160 warrior will STILL be an extra 210 weapon damage but hundings in purple will be 280 weapon damage. Warrior is really good for low levels due to the fact the boost is always the same.

Tbs makes no difference to the amount of damage it gives btw. Still you'd be better running thief and shadow with it regardless.

Slammer99uk

Something I have been playing with for PVE is 5 TBS and 4 HR all in medium divines. The 4 pieces of HR gives you the 2 x 688 crit and the 933 max stam which you won't get with a monster set. All pieces +stam, jewelry +stam regen or weapon damage

Using dual HR daggers, 1 with poison and 1 with disease, crit chance and crit damage mundus's (mundi?) = 82.5% crit chance.

Numbers against multiple mobs are mental:-



Yes I know it's a mess, but I have turned all the on screen damage stats off now

teladoy

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

teladoy wrote: »

Yes i understand everything what you say guys, but all what you say is inside of a determined context, but I'm talking in general.

I know that people uses TBS to do one shot builds with high critic chance and damage, but in Cyro everybody has impenetrable.

Or that also they craft mothers gaze with warhorn to do trials, I saw the video of Deltias also..

No, I'm talking of a result, I'm saying that TBS with the boon of The Warrior gives more weapon damage that the last bonus of the Hunding's rage set.

So solo or in team, or in trials, dungeons, pvp, or etc, the TBS should give and output more damage, indepent of what we have in the team.

Only at CP110. Warrior is a flat bonus regardless of level. It's about 210 weapon damage. Once you hit cp160 warrior will STILL be an extra 210 weapon damage but hundings in purple will be 280 weapon damage. Warrior is really good for low levels due to the fact the boost is always the same.

Tbs makes no difference to the amount of damage it gives btw. Still you'd be better running thief and shadow with it regardless.

I think you are confusing my friend, all stats that gives any set or the mundus stones adjust to your lvl. The warrior is not a flat bonus.

Is easy like craft a lvl 30 TBS and then pick any boon and then see the numbers, then compare with do the same at cp 160.

I saw with my eyes yesterday, i will try to upload a pick today maybe if I can. It doesn't matter the lvl, everything goes up proportionally. That I craft my gear cp 110 makes no difference, because if I would do it at cp 160 i would see the same result as now only with a difference of values.

I'm saying to you craft a TBS put all traits divines, do it white, green, blue, purple whatever you want and take the boon the warrior. Then do the same with HR, craft that set the same as the other one and see the difference.

For example the mundus stones effect will adapt to your gear lvl and color if you have divines of course. The same will do the HR as more you upgrade it, the last bonus will increase.

In the end you have always the same grow up %. No difference.

teladoy

Slammer99uk wrote: »

Something I have been playing with for PVE is 5 TBS and 4 HR all in medium divines. The 4 pieces of HR gives you the 2 x 688 crit and the 933 max stam which you won't get with a monster set. All pieces +stam, jewelry +stam regen or weapon damage

Using dual HR daggers, 1 with poison and 1 with disease, crit chance and crit damage mundus's (mundi?) = 82.5% crit chance.

Numbers against multiple mobs are mental:-



Yes I know it's a mess, but I have turned all the on screen damage stats off now

Hi,

yes this is the typic use for TBS if you want maximum dps in pve, it is mathematic demostrated that seems that critic in pve > weapon damage.

But not the same in pvp...

But letting this build apart, let's suppouse that for any X reason, you want more weapon damage... maybe because you want to do pvp/pve with the same gear, or do quests solo, without have go to one extreme or the other, maybe with the intention to create something decent for both things.

Then you say ok... I want to do very good damage in both situations and have a more like general build, then you think in balance stats, like some acceptable critic chance, maximize your weapon damage and go on.

Then you decide no to pick the boons for crit chance and crit damage, you decide to take the one that increases your weapon damage and the second one I let it to your choice.

Well then you will find out that you have more amount of weapon damage with the TBS than with the HR set... with the plus you can have a second boon and that you can change the combination of the boons as you prefeer.

Now i think you see my point in this post. The HR set is not better than the TBS with divines and boon of the warrior.

Ep1kMalware

teladoy wrote: »

Yes i understand everything what you say guys, but all what you say is inside of a determined context, but I'm talking in general.

I know that people uses TBS to do one shot builds with high critic chance and damage, but in Cyro everybody has impenetrable.

Or that also they craft mothers gaze with warhorn to do trials, I saw the video of Deltias also..

No, I'm talking of a result, I'm saying that TBS with the boon of The Warrior gives more weapon damage that the last bonus of the Hunding's rage set.

So solo or in team, or in trials, dungeons, pvp, or etc, the TBS should give and output more damage, indepent of what we have in the team.

idk, for vmsa/dungeons I often use hundings/warrior mundus. With self buffs I do better in a bloodspawn test vs tbs. I get 420 wd with earrior mundus and hundings I get 720. It helps loads with self heals, and being a templar with 5pc vo I can run 2pc kena and never worry about sustain. I got fatty self heals too.

in a trial, I tend to run 5pc tbs warrior/shadow and with trial buffs my bloodspawn time is much much faster. But without trial buffs it's right about the same time as hundings.

I recentlt tried alkosh/vo/kena and hit 52 seconds. Deal was right at 40% server threw out some insane lag, accidentally procc'd kena, and destroyed ky execute. Also if I move my rotation from endless hail-poison injection to poison injection-endless hail I think that'lk eliminate 4-5 seconds off my time. (but I'm being a lazy procrastinator). I think I can nail ~40 SEC with alkosh/vicious ophidian/2kena/warrior mundus ... and that's sooo far away from 'optimal build'.

both sets are good, but to determine which one is better for your build you really need to put it to the test. numbers may looj pleasing but until you'vd c]seen how well you perform and sustain with it you can't be too sure.

DRXHarbinger

teladoy wrote: »

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

teladoy wrote: »

Yes i understand everything what you say guys, but all what you say is inside of a determined context, but I'm talking in general.

I know that people uses TBS to do one shot builds with high critic chance and damage, but in Cyro everybody has impenetrable.

Or that also they craft mothers gaze with warhorn to do trials, I saw the video of Deltias also..

No, I'm talking of a result, I'm saying that TBS with the boon of The Warrior gives more weapon damage that the last bonus of the Hunding's rage set.

So solo or in team, or in trials, dungeons, pvp, or etc, the TBS should give and output more damage, indepent of what we have in the team.

Only at CP110. Warrior is a flat bonus regardless of level. It's about 210 weapon damage. Once you hit cp160 warrior will STILL be an extra 210 weapon damage but hundings in purple will be 280 weapon damage. Warrior is really good for low levels due to the fact the boost is always the same.

Tbs makes no difference to the amount of damage it gives btw. Still you'd be better running thief and shadow with it regardless.

I think you are confusing my friend, all stats that gives any set or the mundus stones adjust to your lvl. The warrior is not a flat bonus.

Is easy like craft a lvl 30 TBS and then pick any boon and then see the numbers, then compare with do the same at cp 160.

I saw with my eyes yesterday, i will try to upload a pick today maybe if I can. It doesn't matter the lvl, everything goes up proportionally. That I craft my gear cp 110 makes no difference, because if I would do it at cp 160 i would see the same result as now only with a difference of values.

I'm saying to you craft a TBS put all traits divines, do it white, green, blue, purple whatever you want and take the boon the warrior. Then do the same with HR, craft that set the same as the other one and see the difference.

For example the mundus stones effect will adapt to your gear lvl and color if you have divines of course. The same will do the HR as more you upgrade it, the last bonus will increase.

In the end you have always the same grow up %. No difference.

No you're wrong. Warrior and apprentice are flat bonus regardless of your level. 166 base without divines. 213 all divines. Your level matters not hence why hundings isn't as high a bonus at CP110. Same as thief is always a flat 11% and hundings at that level will give you around 7% crit but at purple cp160 it will give you 10%.

Asmael

Been using Hundings for a while, switched to TBS, never looked back.

Hundings might be better for random groups with no Warhorn, but TBS performs better in experienced groups, especially trials, and the extra health is not something to ignore. If you're a cat, it becomes an absolute no-brainer to pick TBS, since the extra critical chance from Carnage has a very strong synergy with the critical damage you get from using Shadow.

SirCritical

So let's modify the last bonus of HR to give the same stat as mundus gives

code65536

NMG is better than Hunding if nobody else is running NMG. Otherwise, use Hunding.

TBS (in PvE, always use Thief/Shadow with TBS--Warrior is inferior to either of them) is best if you have a lot of War Horns going out--e.g., in a well-coordinated trial.

Tyrion87

As a magicka user (where Hundings Rage has its equivalent in Julianos) I can tell, and I was also told by many people based on their experience and also based on their math, that:

HR - for soloing and dungeons (just like Julianos).
TBS (always with Shadow and Thief mundus stones with Divines on all gear pieces) - for trials, especially with experienced and organized groups where many people use Aggresive Warhorn.
For PvP - some nice sustain-oriented sets like Kagrenac's Hope for magicka users, always with Impen.

If you want to craft only one for now, good set for multiple purposes, I would recommend HR - it just seems more versatile for me (and I just couldn't give up the extra crit chance from it which is always nice).

Wrecking_Blow_Spam

The thing that I'm confused about is how are you only a vet 110 and can craft 9 trait armour?

Zerok

I intend to do some testing tonight on various gear setups on my nightblade. I made myself an Excel spreadsheet that basically calculates a damage index based on these 4 variables: weapon damage, max stamina, weapon critical hit % and weapon critical hit bonus damage % (NB passive, major & minor force buffs).

The formula I'm using is the following if you want to try it.
WD = weapon damage
STA = max stamina
CRITH% = weapon critical hit %
CRITB% = weapon critical bonus damage %

INDEX = (1 - CRITH%) * (WD + 1/10.46 * STA) + CRITH% * [1 + 0.5 * (1 + CRITB%)] * (WD + 1/10.46 * STA)

The 10.46 factor from stamina comes from this thread. Hopefully it's right...
https://reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/3pedbv/optimal_staminaweapon_damage_ratio/

Tyrion87

Zerok wrote: »

I intend to do some testing tonight on various gear setups on my nightblade. I made myself an Excel spreadsheet that basically calculates a damage index based on these 4 variables: weapon damage, max stamina, weapon critical hit % and weapon critical hit bonus damage % (NB passive, major & minor force buffs).

The formula I'm using is the following if you want to try it.
WD = weapon damage
STA = max stamina
CRITH% = weapon critical hit %
CRITB% = weapon critical bonus damage %

INDEX = (1 - CRITH%) * (WD + 1/10.46 * STA) + CRITH% * [1 + 0.5 * (1 + CRITB%)] * (WD + 1/10.46 * STA)

The 10.46 factor from stamina comes from this thread. Hopefully it's right...
https://reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/3pedbv/optimal_staminaweapon_damage_ratio/

There is already a really good calculation regarding TBS vs Julianos:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/250529/on-julianos-and-twice-born-star/p1
For magicka users Julianos is the same as Hundings Rage for stamina so I think that those calculations apply also to TBS vs HR.
The conclusion is that there isn't really a big, noticeable difference between those sets and only radical minmaxers may pay attention to it...

Asmael

Tyrion87 wrote: »

Zerok wrote: »

I intend to do some testing tonight on various gear setups on my nightblade. I made myself an Excel spreadsheet that basically calculates a damage index based on these 4 variables: weapon damage, max stamina, weapon critical hit % and weapon critical hit bonus damage % (NB passive, major & minor force buffs).

The formula I'm using is the following if you want to try it.
WD = weapon damage
STA = max stamina
CRITH% = weapon critical hit %
CRITB% = weapon critical bonus damage %

INDEX = (1 - CRITH%) * (WD + 1/10.46 * STA) + CRITH% * [1 + 0.5 * (1 + CRITB%)] * (WD + 1/10.46 * STA)

The 10.46 factor from stamina comes from this thread. Hopefully it's right...
https://reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/3pedbv/optimal_staminaweapon_damage_ratio/

There is already a really good calculation regarding TBS vs Julianos - for magicka users Julianos is the same as Hundings Rage for stamina so I think that those calculations apply also to TBS vs HR. The conclusion is that there isn't really a big, noticeable difference between those sets and only radical minmaxers may pay attention to it...

You can check Asayre's calculations on the matter on Sorcerer Arithmagic, there's a spoiler on Julianos vs TBS.

For short, Julianos is better for straight out DPS by a tiny margin. It would take an absolutely gross Major Force uptime for TBS to beat Julianos, but even then, it's just a "maybe".

But TBS haz extra health & stamina, which can save a life, and a dead DD dealz a mighty 0 DPS.

Oh, and @Zerok , the average damage (based on same thread) is: