Ruins of Mazzatun Vet too hard

Valn

dwemer_cog11 wrote: »

Actually I was running this dungeon with someone called "Valn" - a DK tank having around 290 CP. And we did pretty OK, considering non of us ran this dungeon before, made some good pulls on last boss

OP, if you are the one I am talking about - have found a healer to beat the last boss after I bailed out ?

Yah that was me, some people joined and left after you went, but we managed to beat it after lots of tries. We weren't using any voice program but it took us 4 hours to finish

chimneyswift_ESO

gamerguy757 wrote: »

Bruh...
I'm sitting here waiting for the dungeons to drop on console. Don't nerf them yet! Us FOREVER SINGLE people need a good challenge.

How about don't EVER nerf these dungeons. Period. I'm so sick of this community QQing over "difficult" content they aren't patient or skilled enough to learn. If people can't do it, too bad. Experienced players who ARE willing to learn the mechanics, while playing with a determined and positive group should be rewarded. This comment isn't pointed at you, rather it's pointed at the casual community so please don't take this personally

IwakuraLain42

chimneyswift_ESO wrote: »

How about don't EVER nerf these dungeons. Period. I'm so sick of this community QQing over "difficult" content they aren't patient or skilled enough to learn. If people can't do it, too bad. Experienced players who ARE willing to learn the mechanics, while playing with a determined and positive group should be rewarded. This comment isn't pointed at you, rather it's pointed at the casual community so please don't take this personally

How about finally providing the so called "casual" gamers with some challenging content (Normal mode is an insult to any competent gamer and not something "Fun" as ZOS claimed) that we can actually can complete.

This DLC appears to continue the trend in the last few releases where we a have a ridiculous easy Normal mode (boring) and really hard versions of the Veteran versions but nothing in between. As a ESO subscriber and buyer of all DLCs so far I'm beginning to ask myself why should I continue to buy these DLCs if the only challenging parts are pointed at the Elite few ....

This might sound salty but reading the changes like adding bosses with millions of HP(AA) or one-shot mechanics requiring micro-second reaction times is really a bad idea for most of the player base, even the ones that aren't really "casuals".

DemonDruaga

when veteran is too hard, go normal till you get yourself to a level that you can actualy call you a veteran. those two dungeons already are very simple once you found out the mechanics.and thats what ever was the fun part of dungeons all over the mmo world, testing, dying, learning-> beat the boss

IwakuraLain42

Thanks for the slight, but I can finish all Normal dungeons nearly blindfolded and also all (old) Veteran dungeons (unless being paired with incompetent players in PUGs) ....

What I object to, in case its unclear, is the artificial difficulty introduced in all the latest Veteran content (starting with vMSA) by adding gigantic damages sponges, trash spawns that you have to memorize or 1 second reaction time one-shot mechanics.

I don't mind doing challenges (that's why I think that the Normal versions of the latest dungeons and trials are a joke), but I want to have a fighting chance to do these. And that means to have to memorize all spawn locations and times (I'm looking at you, vMSA) or having the reaction times of a young god.
From what I can see from the latest patch notes ZOS has actually improved the visual telegraph and the reaction time (from 1sec to 1.5 sec) of the mechanics in one of the dungeons. These are the changes that I'm talking about.

chimneyswift_ESO

IwakuraLain42 wrote: »

chimneyswift_ESO wrote: »

How about don't EVER nerf these dungeons. Period. I'm so sick of this community QQing over "difficult" content they aren't patient or skilled enough to learn. If people can't do it, too bad. Experienced players who ARE willing to learn the mechanics, while playing with a determined and positive group should be rewarded. This comment isn't pointed at you, rather it's pointed at the casual community so please don't take this personally

How about finally providing the so called "casual" gamers with some challenging content (Normal mode is an insult to any competent gamer and not something "Fun" as ZOS claimed) that we can actually can complete.

This DLC appears to continue the trend in the last few releases where we a have a ridiculous easy Normal mode (boring) and really hard versions of the Veteran versions but nothing in between. As a ESO subscriber and buyer of all DLCs so far I'm beginning to ask myself why should I continue to buy these DLCs if the only challenging parts are pointed at the Elite few ....

This might sound salty but reading the changes like adding bosses with millions of HP(AA) or one-shot mechanics requiring micro-second reaction times is really a bad idea for most of the player base, even the ones that aren't really "casuals".

I agree with you that the gap between Normal and Veteran is too vast. I honestly think normal is such a joke and it needs to be buffed hard. But please for the love of Azura don't nerf a really fun and challenging Veteran dungeon because casuals complain about it. "Veteran" by it's nature should be difficult, even for experienced groups. That being said, when you mention the "elite" few I don't know if I agree with you. I like to think I'm a skilled player as I have been playing this game since early access, but am I the best? nooooooo, far from it. In fact, I did just start tanking on Aug 1...the day the DLC came out. Was I patient enough to learn the mechanics and lead my group through it? Yes. That's what it takes. Veteran content should never be something casuals can just PuG group and faceroll through (cough Wayrest, cough). Instead, find 3 dedicated friends who are willing to take the time to learn this stuff. I guarantee you'll feel a MUCH higher sense of self accomplishment and reward when you work at beating it, than having something nerfed till it's so easy it's not much of a challenge.

In terms of 1 shot mechanics, I think this is totally fine. If you don't have 1 shot mechanics then what is there to pay attention to when if you take damage your templar healer just spams BoL to keep you alive? 1 shot mechanics require the ENTIRE group to be focused, and it rewards your group when you complete it because you know you've learned the fight and are now good at recognizing the dangerous things.

To circle back tho and to address your concerns with buying the DLCs, I agree that the Normal Mode should be harder.

IwakuraLain42

You're right about the gap between Normal and Veteran dungeons, but I think we either need a third difficulty between or a special Hard mode for the "Elite", which grants special rewards like golden jewelry, etc.

But I think you misunderstood me about the 1 shot mechanics, I don't have problem per se with the mechanics. I just think that most telegraphs are to easy to miss and that the reaction time the game gives you is a bit to short. So a change from 1 sec to 1.5 sec would be a good think and not really a nerf in my book.

chimneyswift_ESO

IwakuraLain42 wrote: »

You're right about the gap between Normal and Veteran dungeons, but I think we either need a third difficulty between or a special Hard mode for the "Elite", which grants special rewards like golden jewelry, etc.

But I think you misunderstood me about the 1 shot mechanics, I don't have problem per se with the mechanics. I just think that most telegraphs are to easy to miss and that the reaction time the game gives you is a bit to short. So a change from 1 sec to 1.5 sec would be a good think and not really a nerf in my book.

Which 1-shot mechanics are you struggling with? Maybe I can help you out.

Nebthet78

Here is the thing though, most casual players don't have 4-5hrs of sit down play time to fully learn the mechanics of these new Vet dungeons and that is how much time it is taking a lot of players to play through them before they give up on the final boss due to fatigue. I know beating my head against a wall for 3-5hrs isn't fun.

Now, no one wants to see these dungeons nerfed into the ground like they did with vICP and vWGT when major complaints started hitting the forums when it was released on console but they do need to be brought down a small amount.

I have spoken with guildmates whom have finished these dungeons with other guild mates and are hard core players and they even agreed these dungeons require about 10% reduction in difficulty to even give good casual players a fighting chance to finish them while still requiring the whole group to follow mechanics.

But this major gap between Normal and Vet modes is more evident in Trials, and this is where I especially feel they need to create a third middle tier for more casual players to be able to better learn the mechanics without the frustration of guaranteed constant deaths, because that just gets frustrating and then people don't want to even attempt it on Vet ever again.

I took a look at the numbers, and the difficulty of the new Trials seems to be set at 300x more difficult than the new normal and not set at players having 300CP. The new Normal is actually scaled up based on the Old Veteren boss HP and Damage numbers.

I would say the middle tier should give one piece of gold jewelery at the end of the Trial on Hard mode, but no leaderboards. This leaves the now current upscaled version giving one piece of gold on normal vet mode, 2 pieces on Hard Mode and the extra they also get from hitting the leaderboards. In terms of VDSA, the middle Tier should drop a master weapon but in Blue instead of Purple.

This gives players a tiered learning system where they also feel like they have accomplished something for their time spent.

Moriarti

I done it three times in random party but always without burning notes. So, any advice for last boss hard mode? How exactly it differs from standard mode? Is it only about stronger ads?

Defilted

This sounds like all the VMA posts.

Lets hope there is harder content coming after this update as well.

OrphanHelgen

Beyond infinity just did hardmode in vet maw... Then this

IwakuraLain42

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

Beyond infinity just did hardmode in vet maw... Then this

Just because a few elite raiding groups can finish the hardest challenges doesn't invalidates the critiques for the newest vetTrials. I think it's fine that they have a challenge that they can work for, but the for the rest the newly scaled verTrials are just to hard.

Defilted wrote: »

This sounds like all the VMA posts.

Lets hope there is harder content coming after this update as well.

Only if ZOS also releases challenging content for the rest of player base (beyond the ridiculously easy normal modes) that can actually be completed in 2-3 hours. People here seem to forget that not everyone runs a min-maxed build with the latest Maelstrom weapons. If this trend really continues then I really have to ask myself why should I continue to support ZOS with my subscription and Crown sales if everything that a non-elite player gets if a slap in the face (yes, that's meant when we keep hearing "just run the Normal versions, they are fun" from ZOS employees).

Brrrofski

Looking forward to spending a few hours here when it drops on Tuesday

Brrrofski

Brrrofski wrote: »

Looking forward to spending a few hours here when it drops on Tuesday

We were there a while. Maybe 3 hours. Mostly on the last boss. Took us a while to work out the statues thing. Once we did that, it was just jump on the totems asap and watch the vines. It was still tricky but got it done.

I was on my sap tank and honestly having a tank than can hold boss aggro and Dps is a big help I think. Was even dropping shooting stars on the totems. Being a nb, had own pretty much everytime. Also non stop DPSing the boss probably help while the others are shouting "WHICH STATUE IS IT???!!!".

I enjoyed it. Last boss is hard, but nailing the mechanics was a good feeling. Same with cradle of shadow. Last boss was frustrating. But after a while we got it done. On that, all 4 of us dropped the helm which was nice. Both times the dps were not even optimal setup. None of us have maelstrom weapons or even trial sets. Crafted stuff mostly. One dps was a two handed and bow nb.

MattT1988

I spent 4 hours on this dungeon last night for the first time (PS4) and got it done and I've got to say I thoroughly enjoyed it, IMO this is what a dungeon SHOULD be:
* Challenging
* Heavily reliant on teamwork and communication.
* Interesting and challenging mechanics.

This dungeon has these more then any other they've put out. I hope this is the blueprint for future dungeons.

I can't wait to try this for gold key pledge, on one of our go's against the last boss we read the scroll just to see what would happen and holy shitballs, that is ruthless.

Brrrofski

MattT1988 wrote: »

I spent 4 hours on this dungeon last night for the first time (PS4) and got it done and I've got to say I thoroughly enjoyed it, IMO this is what a dungeon SHOULD be:
* Challenging
* Heavily reliant on teamwork and communication.
* Interesting and challenging mechanics.

This dungeon has these more then any other they've put out. I hope this is the blueprint for future dungeons.

I can't wait to try this for gold key pledge, on one of our go's against the last boss we read the scroll just to see what would happen and holy shitballs, that is ruthless.

Yeh, teamwork is great on this. Dps swapping the spice over, people pointng out which statue to go for, everyone panic and Dps the totem lol.

The statue thing is hilarious. People genuinely sound terrified when they are on statue duty.

CJohnson81

The_Outsider wrote: »

Doncellius wrote: »

Phinix1 wrote: »

Doncellius wrote: »

There is no special prize. However, we can all probably agree that if a single player (no matter the skill level) can solo a veteran dungeon, it is not in need of nerfs. Especially when said nerfs are being called for Day 1.

I don't think we can say that, no. It would be like saying that just because one guy (Bruce Lee) can play ping pong with Nunchucks, that anyone should be able to. The logic doesn't pan out. Most people can't do that.

There are many factors. Not everyone has a high end computer. Not everyone has perfect high speed internet. Not everyone has hours a day to devote to perfecting muscle memory.

In fact, MOST people are not going to be able to "compete" on that level, nor would they want to.

One of the bigger failings of the gaming industry has been the push towards "e-sports" and the pursuit of elite competition, leaderboards, constant comparison, who has the bigger numbers.

It encourages shallow gameplay and tells the company they can skimp on immersion and actual content for the sake of some spreadsheet grinding mash-off.

Maelstrom Arena had the right idea. If people really NEED that sort of affirmation, then let them get it separate from the normal rotation of dungeon content.

Don't balance the game around a minority.

That said, I am not convinced the dungeon is "too hard," especially since the one group I tried it with didn't make it past the turtle boss.

I do think some of the telegraph mechanics are badly designed, which makes it tedious more than hard.

But I am not the Bruce Lee of ESO...... I'd have to use Cheat Engine for that comparison to work

I am a PS4 player as well so no 60FPS to help me. It runs badly on console these days (~10-20FPS with stutters in dungeons).

By this logic, that few can even complete moderately-difficult content, shouldn't we further nerf vICP and vWGT because you still need to follow mechanics to succeed? This all seems like an attempt to justify that these new dungeons need nerfs Day One, by saying almost everyone sucks to much so it has to be done -_-

Maybe it's just me...... but I fail to see how if you see a red circle, you can continue to run into it and not understand why you took damage. If you honestly cannot invest the time to follow mechanics and must faceroll it, you can play on Normal.

Note, Bruce Lee used Cheat Engine. This is my take away.

Lol I'm reading this thread and laughing because that silly CGI video keeps coming up.

MattT1988

Brrrofski wrote: »

MattT1988 wrote: »

I spent 4 hours on this dungeon last night for the first time (PS4) and got it done and I've got to say I thoroughly enjoyed it, IMO this is what a dungeon SHOULD be:
* Challenging
* Heavily reliant on teamwork and communication.
* Interesting and challenging mechanics.

This dungeon has these more then any other they've put out. I hope this is the blueprint for future dungeons.

I can't wait to try this for gold key pledge, on one of our go's against the last boss we read the scroll just to see what would happen and holy shitballs, that is ruthless.

Yeh, teamwork is great on this. Dps swapping the spice over, people pointng out which statue to go for, everyone panic and Dps the totem lol.

The statue thing is hilarious. People genuinely sound terrified when they are on statue duty.

I love the hysterical "WHICH STATUE?!" you inevitably get.