The TRUE Issue with ESO is PVP

Ch4mpTW

Draxys wrote: »

The original post is written like pve can't be rebalanced after a good pvp balance is found lol. Preferably, they would be simultaneous. The whole idea of pvp ruining a game is predicated on nonsense.

Edit: I realize lots of pvp changes have hurt pve, but that's the developers being bad, not pvp ruining anything.

Good PVP balance at 1 point was found, but people still complained non-stop. Matter of a fact, not just PVP balance, but overall balance. Look at pre-1.6 and 1.6 ESO and compare it to now.

Edziu

Doncellius wrote: »

If only ZOS could take their own advice and update every skill this way

ye, I see it in many games...if 1 skills is ok, balanced i pve but to op on pvp...they just halfe this work on only pvp etc...when on pve still working as on start...ZOS just *** all the balance with skills...skill is to op on pvp > nerf it > useless in pve.....baaad
it should be
skill is to op on pvp > change skill working only on players/pvp area > in pve still good skill, on pvp no longer to op, all are happy

ZOS just dont know anything to balance skill working on pvp and pve together

similiary with shields...20 sec duration on pve was good....this doesnt hurt someone, but on pvp this was annyoing...so why just halve it duration on pvp zones etc?

this option with change skill working on pvp zones instead on pve zones will be very good for most skills that what was nerfed on pvp and pve (with some skills useless in pve) just because on pvp it was to good

Ch4mpTW

Edziu wrote: »

Doncellius wrote: »

If only ZOS could take their own advice and update every skill this way

ye, I see it in many games...if 1 skills is ok, balanced i pve but to op on pvp...they just halfe this work on only pvp etc...when on pve still working as on start...ZOS just *** all the balance with skills...skill is to op on pvp > nerf it > useless in pve.....baaad
it should be
skill is to op on pvp > change skill working only on players/pvp area > in pve still good skill, on pvp no longer to op, all are happy

ZOS just dont know anything to balance skill working on pvp and pve together

similiary with shields...20 sec duration on pve was good....this doesnt hurt someone, but on pvp this was annyoing...so why just halve it duration on pvp zones etc?

this option with change skill working on pvp zones instead on pve zones will be very good for most skills that what was nerfed on pvp and pve (with some skills useless in pve) just because on pvp it was to good

So true, bro. So true. Just imagine, being able to block while regaining stamina while in VMA or VMoL... That would be wonderful! Or better yet, imagine being able to use Streak or Ball of Lightning without the huge setbacks they have now. OMG! VMA with no increased cost of streak per use! Soooo dreamy.

Draxys

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Draxys wrote: »

The original post is written like pve can't be rebalanced after a good pvp balance is found lol. Preferably, they would be simultaneous. The whole idea of pvp ruining a game is predicated on nonsense.

Edit: I realize lots of pvp changes have hurt pve, but that's the developers being bad, not pvp ruining anything.

Good PVP balance at 1 point was found, but people still complained non-stop. Matter of a fact, not just PVP balance, but overall balance. Look at pre-1.6 and 1.6 ESO and compare it to now.

I fully agree, I've pvped since launch as well.

My point though, is that pvp ruining pve is a symptom and not the cause of the symptom. Bad developing is what we should be discussing.

Ch4mpTW

Draxys wrote: »

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Draxys wrote: »

The original post is written like pve can't be rebalanced after a good pvp balance is found lol. Preferably, they would be simultaneous. The whole idea of pvp ruining a game is predicated on nonsense.

Edit: I realize lots of pvp changes have hurt pve, but that's the developers being bad, not pvp ruining anything.

Good PVP balance at 1 point was found, but people still complained non-stop. Matter of a fact, not just PVP balance, but overall balance. Look at pre-1.6 and 1.6 ESO and compare it to now.

I fully agree, I've pvped since launch as well.

My point though, is that pvp ruining pve is a symptom and not the cause of the symptom. Bad developing is what we should be discussing.

When you put it that way, and from that point-of-view — I agree. +1

ScottK1994

I think defences have to be changed for PvP, in a way thats similar to other MMOs where certain stats are needed in PvP. WoW got a lot easier to sort out the high damage numbers when they added resistance and only PvE guys got one shotted

But I'm not king Cyrodiil I've always been more of a small scale battleground guy for PvP

ScottK1994

And about it being bad developing. There are companies I'd describe as far more experienced in MMOs who when their game was the same age it was far from balanced. On WoW when it was a couple years old all Warriors were tanks and all classes that had healing options had to be healers. People were locked in on roles and specs and they struggled to fix it.

The expansions helped them, adding new moves and enemies and BGs and stuff

kevlarto_ESO

PVP balance is a pipe dream, I don't know any games that has achieved it some games have done a better job some not so much, when you have a pvp and pve game, balancing in either direction effects the other, it is a conundrum that to many games get caught up in, then we have had so much cheating and exploiting of broken game mechanics on top of everything else throw the server issues with lag, it is amazing that pvp is a fun as it is here in ESO, and I have had days where it was not so fun.

Just wait until small scale pvp comes in and all the cries for nerf and more balance, this is a never ending cycle with this game, I think the dev team here as proven pretty much if it is not an easy fix it will either never get fixed or we are still working on it, but hey buy the mount in the crown store..

I do agree with OP on a few of the things he had to say.

Ch4mpTW

ScottK1994 wrote: »

And about it being bad developing. There are companies I'd describe as far more experienced in MMOs who when their game was the same age it was far from balanced. On WoW when it was a couple years old all Warriors were tanks and all classes that had healing options had to be healers. People were locked in on roles and specs and they struggled to fix it.

The expansions helped them, adding new moves and enemies and BGs and stuff

Well, I hate to be "that guy"... But, you kinda are locked into certain roles based on your race and class in ESO. Now don't get me wrong, you are free to go outside of the norm and play however you want. But, in the long scheme of things? You're only making things more difficult on yourself, as well as those playing with you.

For example... If you had a high elf sorcerer... And yet, you wanted to go about a stamina build... You'd be looking a fool. Now I'm not saying you couldn't make it "work", but you'd look foolish. Why? Because high elves are primarily known for their traits in magicka. And Sorcerer's and high elves go together like peanut butter and jelly. Do you get what I'm saying? Would you truly be a healer, if you walked around with DW on your front bar and bow on your backbar? Lol. The same logic applies.

Hellbender27

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Now before people go and lose their cool over the title, I'll elaborate. And give in-depth explainations as to why I say this. Not to mention I also used to be a hardcore PVP'er, until things got dull and things like exploits and lag killed it for me. Not to mention the extreme unbalance to classes. Wrobel himself even said, "Some classes are better than others." in regards to balance. So without further wait, I'll explain.

The first reason is because of class and skill nerfs. Time and time again threads arise about how this class is overpowered, and that skill is overpowered. Time and time again. And when we look at where these complaints are coming from, it's from a PVP perspective. You never really hear Nightblade and Templar complaints coming from a PVE perspective. "Gosh, I really hate how my Radiant Destruction is killing these bosses and adds off." You never hear that. But will you hear complaints about RD in PVP? All the time. It's everywhere. Now granted, I'm not saying it's a "balanced" skill. But, the main point is — PVP'ers get things nerfed. Which hurt things for both PVE and PVP. Not good. I mean, even something as basic as blocking as nerfed due to PVP complaints. Sure, that 1 dev said it was actually because they didn't want tanks just holding block while doing content. But, let's be honest. When have you EVER heard a tank complain about regenerating stamina while blocking? Lol. I never have. But, have I ever heard complaints about people regaining stamina while blocking in PVP? Tons of times. The complaints of "Block Knights" were the topic of PVP discussions for months, until ZOS did something about it.

The second thing is elitism. Now granted, elitist people are both in PVE and PVP. Sure. But, when you have select groups of people specifically targeting low-level players, and non-skilled players — that's a problem. Not to mention people having "arenas" in the middle of Cyrodiil, when there are major keep battles occurring. Yet if you interfere and kill off an enemy player, suddenly you're this horrible person and your own alliance members teabag you and won't help you when you get attacked by 4 or 5 people of the opposite faction. That's absolutely ridiculous and should never be happening. Ever. But yet and still this is a very common thing which occurs both on Mac and PS4 on NA server.

The third thing is that PVP causes players to become great angered that in order to obtain certain key and important things through PVP. Such as: Skills, skill points, gear, etc. And that is never a good idea. You should never force a crowd of players to PVP, just to obtain something. I'm sorry, but no. There would be a way for the pieces to be obtained from both sides of the coin. For example, PVP'ers whined and complained about how dungeon running was unfair. And how they don't want to be bothered with it, and how they shouldn't have to PVE to get top-tier gear. Well.. Now there is a vendor for them to go to and get monster pieces. As well as other gear sets... Yet PVE'ers don't have the same luxury. PVE'ers don't have someone they can trade in gold or tokens to get top-tier gear. Oh sure, they can use the vendor that was put there FOR PVP'ers. But, again — who is that vendor really catering towards...?

The list goes on and on about why PVP is being the source of issues for this game, and I could continue to list reasons. But, I think you all get the point. Also, I am fully aware of how an arguement could be made on the opposite side of the spectrum. And how PVE is an issue with ESO — except that this is an Elder Scrolls game. Elder Scrolls is based on PVE, lore, etc. And also, yes. I probably will PVP again, to get access to exclusive skills and skill points. As well as certain achievements. But, all and all? PVP does more bad to this game than good.

I mean, looking at from a perspective of being around since beta days until now — what exactly has PVP done to uplift the ESO community? I can't really think of anything, except for causing an uproar when Imperial City was announced, and the numerous complaints of the Tel Var system in a PVP environment. So yeah... PVP...? Not exactly something that is a highlight of this game, and should remain.

I see that your getting flamed for your opinions but what your saying is true period.

ParaNostram

OP, shut it, for the love of Talos! Come back when PvE actually requires any real skill in this game (hint, it doesn't right now).

Also? Your whole forcing players to do things they don't want to do schtick swings both ways, actually more in favor of having to do PvE to be competitive in PvP (monster helms were PvE last time I checked and no a stupid vendor once a week doesn't count). The skill points are meaningless, there's more than enough from everything else to get by. The skills from PvP are worthless for PvE in reality unless you're so obsessed with getting that extra 1% something or another. Wanna know why I stopped doing PvE? I got bored!

People expected cookie cutter builds and even if you outperform those builds, you get kicked from groups (talk about elitism like you complained about here) and there's no real variety to the content! (run through a dungeon once, it'll be the same the next time). So if you want PvP to suffer even more (it's getting no content love from ZOS) just so you can do the same content you've seen before in the same gear and build as everyone else with a slightly higher number on your DPS, then you get no love from me.

Praeficere

I really don't understand the point of this post, a tonne of progress has been made and the game is in a great state balance-wise.

Each class, both magicka and stamina, is performing for solo and group play. Wasn't that long ago where Stamina builds weren't to be seen in group content and they were really difficult to pull off in PvP. A recent example, vMA was something pretty hard for stamina builds - now they can hold their own versus magicka builds and the skill gap between magicka and stamina in vMA is pretty much gone.

There are some things in Cyrodiil that could be toned down (Incap Strike, Malubeth) but on the whole it's the most balanced Cyrodiil I've ever seen, all classes and builds can compete to a decent level which is something that has never happened in this game before.

Tanks have way higher sustain and resource pools compared to then, if you could still regen stamina while blocking in PvE, you'd need zero investment into it - you already don't need much. Tanking builds in PvP are also the strongest and most useful they've ever been, way more than any previous patch. They can take a ton of damage and provide a lot of utility, debuffs and heals if played correctly.

daswahnsinn

Roehamad_Ali wrote: »

Every week you're grumpy about something . Bruh ....

@Ch4mpTW writes what I'm too lazy to. I see were he's coming from. I think the classes and kills that can hit hard or heal hard should do just that. Damn just let us play as we want. I still remember that game. How can I downgrade my game back to v1.5 or before the lighting change.

outsideworld76

PvP suffers from extreme lag, it's unplayable. Yet every time ZOS brings out new dlc content for PvE but does nothing tovimprove the laf issue. As a paying customercI feel neglected by ZOS for not doing anything significant for PvP players.

NeillMcAttack

Another PvP vs PvE thread. Truly the bane of my existence.

Guess what, I actually enjoy both aspects of the game and like that there is consistency between the two. I know, I must be some kind of freak right. And also, this might even blow your mind, I'm not the only one!! I often even do trails and pledges with the same group of people that that I then PvP with. Complete madness right?

And what about all those stormproof, Ophidian Overlord's, and flawless Conqueror's I see having fun battling it out in Cyro? You are basically saying screw those players because they have a broader interest in what the game offers. So this is why I find your post highly condescending, and terribly narrow-minded.

STEVIL

Ehhh...
no problem with pvp.
just not my cup of tea.
just wish Zos would setup pvp related folders so pvp specific threads could go there and pve threads elsewhere so one could make more efficient use of the forum reading time.

GreenhaloX

Well, the OP does seem to have some viable points, but I don't think I can fully agree with the statement that "PVP does more bad to this game than good." Although I do respect his opinion on this, and despite some of the shenanigans apparently occurring in Cyrodiil (elitism, cheating/exploits, etc..), if anything, I think PVP offers an escape from the everyday monotony of repeatable daily quests of the PVE areas, while waiting for new DLC to be released. I can also see the monotony bug hit those who spend the majority of their times PvPing as well. Once monotony sinks in, and if there is no other escape for the time being, anything can get boring and when boredom hits, it can be hard to think of something in a more positive view.

TequilaFire

Nerf the Amulet of Kings!
Just posting for Molag. lol

Actually the biggest bane to this game is whiny threads on the forums when something doesn't go a player's way and the devs not sticking to their original design because of it.

Jaronking

NoMoreChillies wrote: »

Caza99 wrote: »

We PvP'ers have tried asking for new PvP content, different areas, instanced PvP, arenas, battlegrounds, etc. The closest thing to new PvP content we've gotten in 2 years is Imperial City. So all we can really do now is complain until things are changed so that what we have to play is tolerable. That's just how I see it anyway :P
And if PvP didn't exist in ESO then it would lose a large amount of ita player base, plain and simple.

if PVP was large playerbase then the devs would cater to it. $$$$ talks.

Actually PVP used to have a large player base if the game has its PVP population it did at launch and the console population it hard around IC launch The PVP population would be around 35-40% of the game.With the lag and other just clearly bad game design decisions had made many of those players leave.ZOS pushed the PVP population away by neglect its the reason it isn't profitable.

@Ch4mpTW You can't balance a game for PVE because PVEp players would never complain about a broken ability if a spamable ability does 100k damage every time it hits no PVE will complains about that does it make the skill not broken because no one complains about it no its still broken.PVP players will tell the DEVs when something is over preforming PVE will not.Plus you made a thread last week about how toxic PVers can be just because you didn't have a mic.every group have their jerks in it you just have to ignore it.

Samuel_Bantien

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

@Sharee
You're a very intelligent person, and I love reading your logic in posts. However, I have a question for you. If you pause for a moment, and think — "What if PVP didn't exist in ESO?" Do you think that the game would be in the state that it's currently in? As in class-wise and skill-wise. Here, I'll elaborate a bit. Do you think the DK's flappers, the NB's cloak, the Sorcerer's streak and wards, etc. would all be in the current condition that they are in? Had this game not have PVP? I honestly don't think that shields would be 6 and 10 seconds, if PVP didn't exist. As no one would complain about shield stacking Sorcs in PVE.

I was reading through the comments and this caught my eye...

Dragonknight Reflective Scales would be completely overpowered in a Vet DSA and a Vet VMA environment so PvErs would not complain. Nightblade Cloak would be complained about a whole ton though. Who would slot this in a PvE environment? Cloak would turn into a leveling 1-50 skill and thay's it. PvErs would complain that they have a useless skill in their skillbook and that it should be changed (there is a ton of Prolonged Suffering/Agony complaints by both PvPers and PvErs). Sorcerer streak falls into the same boat as Nightblade Cloak.

Now the next highlight, many people (DKs and Templars Wrothgar patch) complained heavily that it wasn't as easy to finish Vet Maelstrom and have stated it was much easier to do this on a Nightblade or a Shieldstacking Sorcerer. These classes called for balance against the two but mainly pointed out that Sorcerer was so much easier and became the butt of the joke: Flawless Conquerer? Must've been a Sorc.

Several Skills that would (still) be complained about if PvP was removed:
Basically all Undaunted Skills except for Taunt, (No Vigor (WE NEED A STAM HEAL NOW!/Caltrops now because PvP is gone), All Soul Magic Skills, All Vampire Skills
Nightblade Blur, Nightblade Ambush/Lotus Fan, Nightblade Fear, Soul Tether, Nightblade Claok, Nightblade Agony
Templar Radial Sweep, Templar Javelin, Templar Focused Charge, Templar Healing Ritual
Dragonknight Dragon Leap, DK Stonefist, DK Petrify
Sorcerer Encase, All Sorcerer pet summons including Atronach, Sorcerer Rune Prison, Sorcerer Dark Exchange, Daedric Mines, Sorcerer Bolt Escape

Without PvP most of these skills would be cried REVAMP! (removed and give them a new skill) as they are completely useless in a PvE environment. PvP brings atleast some balance with the class skills given to them.

Ch4mpTW

Samuel_Bantien wrote: »

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

@Sharee
You're a very intelligent person, and I love reading your logic in posts. However, I have a question for you. If you pause for a moment, and think — "What if PVP didn't exist in ESO?" Do you think that the game would be in the state that it's currently in? As in class-wise and skill-wise. Here, I'll elaborate a bit. Do you think the DK's flappers, the NB's cloak, the Sorcerer's streak and wards, etc. would all be in the current condition that they are in? Had this game not have PVP? I honestly don't think that shields would be 6 and 10 seconds, if PVP didn't exist. As no one would complain about shield stacking Sorcs in PVE.

I was reading through the comments and this caught my eye...

Dragonknight Reflective Scales would be completely overpowered in a Vet DSA and a Vet VMA environment so PvErs would not complain. Nightblade Cloak would be complained about a whole ton though. Who would slot this in a PvE environment? Cloak would turn into a leveling 1-50 skill and thay's it. PvErs would complain that they have a useless skill in their skillbook and that it should be changed (there is a ton of Prolonged Suffering/Agony complaints by both PvPers and PvErs). Sorcerer streak falls into the same boat as Nightblade Cloak.

Now the next highlight, many people (DKs and Templars Wrothgar patch) complained heavily that it wasn't as easy to finish Vet Maelstrom and have stated it was much easier to do this on a Nightblade or a Shieldstacking Sorcerer. These classes called for balance against the two but mainly pointed out that Sorcerer was so much easier and became the butt of the joke: Flawless Conquerer? Must've been a Sorc.

Several Skills that would (still) be complained about if PvP was removed:
Basically all Undaunted Skills except for Taunt, (No Vigor (WE NEED A STAM HEAL NOW!/Caltrops now because PvP is gone), All Soul Magic Skills, All Vampire Skills
Nightblade Blur, Nightblade Ambush/Lotus Fan, Nightblade Fear, Soul Tether, Nightblade Claok, Nightblade Agony
Templar Radial Sweep, Templar Javelin, Templar Focused Charge, Templar Healing Ritual
Dragonknight Dragon Leap, DK Stonefist, DK Petrify
Sorcerer Encase, All Sorcerer pet summons including Atronach, Sorcerer Rune Prison, Sorcerer Dark Exchange, Daedric Mines, Sorcerer Bolt Escape

Without PvP most of these skills would be cried REVAMP! (removed and give them a new skill) as they are completely useless in a PvE environment. PvP brings atleast some balance with the class skills given to them.

Pretty insightful stuff here, that I didn't consider before. Very interesting.