The TRUE Issue with ESO is PVP

Ch4mpTW

Now before people go and lose their cool over the title, I'll elaborate. And give in-depth explainations as to why I say this. Not to mention I also used to be a hardcore PVP'er, until things got dull and things like exploits and lag killed it for me. Not to mention the extreme unbalance to classes. Wrobel himself even said, "Some classes are better than others." in regards to balance. So without further wait, I'll explain.

The first reason is because of class and skill nerfs. Time and time again threads arise about how this class is overpowered, and that skill is overpowered. Time and time again. And when we look at where these complaints are coming from, it's from a PVP perspective. You never really hear Nightblade and Templar complaints coming from a PVE perspective. "Gosh, I really hate how my Radiant Destruction is killing these bosses and adds off." You never hear that. But will you hear complaints about RD in PVP? All the time. It's everywhere. Now granted, I'm not saying it's a "balanced" skill. But, the main point is — PVP'ers get things nerfed. Which hurt things for both PVE and PVP. Not good. I mean, even something as basic as blocking as nerfed due to PVP complaints. Sure, that 1 dev said it was actually because they didn't want tanks just holding block while doing content. But, let's be honest. When have you EVER heard a tank complain about regenerating stamina while blocking? Lol. I never have. But, have I ever heard complaints about people regaining stamina while blocking in PVP? Tons of times. The complaints of "Block Knights" were the topic of PVP discussions for months, until ZOS did something about it.

The second thing is elitism. Now granted, elitist people are both in PVE and PVP. Sure. But, when you have select groups of people specifically targeting low-level players, and non-skilled players — that's a problem. Not to mention people having "arenas" in the middle of Cyrodiil, when there are major keep battles occurring. Yet if you interfere and kill off an enemy player, suddenly you're this horrible person and your own alliance members teabag you and won't help you when you get attacked by 4 or 5 people of the opposite faction. That's absolutely ridiculous and should never be happening. Ever. But yet and still this is a very common thing which occurs both on Mac and PS4 on NA server.

The third thing is that PVP causes players to become great angered that in order to obtain certain key and important things through PVP. Such as: Skills, skill points, gear, etc. And that is never a good idea. You should never force a crowd of players to PVP, just to obtain something. I'm sorry, but no. There would be a way for the pieces to be obtained from both sides of the coin. For example, PVP'ers whined and complained about how dungeon running was unfair. And how they don't want to be bothered with it, and how they shouldn't have to PVE to get top-tier gear. Well.. Now there is a vendor for them to go to and get monster pieces. As well as other gear sets... Yet PVE'ers don't have the same luxury. PVE'ers don't have someone they can trade in gold or tokens to get top-tier gear. Oh sure, they can use the vendor that was put there FOR PVP'ers. But, again — who is that vendor really catering towards...?

The list goes on and on about why PVP is being the source of issues for this game, and I could continue to list reasons. But, I think you all get the point. Also, I am fully aware of how an arguement could be made on the opposite side of the spectrum. And how PVE is an issue with ESO — except that this is an Elder Scrolls game. Elder Scrolls is based on PVE, lore, etc. And also, yes. I probably will PVP again, to get access to exclusive skills and skill points. As well as certain achievements. But, all and all? PVP does more bad to this game than good.

I mean, looking at from a perspective of being around since beta days until now — what exactly has PVP done to uplift the ESO community? I can't really think of anything, except for causing an uproar when Imperial City was announced, and the numerous complaints of the Tel Var system in a PVP environment. So yeah... PVP...? Not exactly something that is a highlight of this game, and should remain.

Rohamad_Ali

Every week you're grumpy about something . Bruh ....

Ch4mpTW

Roehamad_Ali wrote: »

Every week you're grumpy about something . Bruh ....

BRUH! I thought that 1 out, bruh. And I'm not grumpy. I'm enjoying some pink lemonade, and watching Dexter on Netflix. Lol. Things are beautiful and smooth at the moment, and even before I wrote that. It was just something I figured I'd bring to the table. Tis' all.

Ampnode

You gave me a good giggle, self-entitled carebear. I find it worrying that every time I see you in a thread it's about you complaining about PvP. Like really, you seem to have a deep hatred for it and that's honestly pathetic. Not even going to go on about it because you can't help those who are truly irrational.

That said, go take a deep breath and relax by killing the same mob over and over again. Maybe you'll beat your personal record to see how fast you can kill it.

dem0n1k

So... you don't like PVP anymore? OK. I still like PVP

If the NPCs could complain about OP PVE players, I'm sure they would

Ch4mpTW

Ampnode wrote: »

You gave me a good giggle, self-entitled carebear. I find it worrying that every time I see you in a thread it's about you complaining about PvP. Like really, you seem to have a deep hatred for it and that's honestly pathetic. Not even going to go on about it because you can't help those who are truly irrational.

That said, go take a deep breath and relax by killing the same mob over and over again. Maybe you'll beat your personal record to see how fast you can kill it.

That... That was kinda harsh. Um... Not to mention my last few threads were about: Bretons getting a tweak on 1 of their passives, me falling through the ground somehow, and a thread of my Overload ultimate failing to — overload. Lol. Say what now? And the comments I made recently were about how I was planning on trying Neverwinter this weekend, and how I don't think Master Weapons can compare to Maelstrom Weapons... I'm also relaxed, as I told another user. That was pretty rude of you, dude. And rather insulting. It appears that you (like many others) forget that everyone is entitled to an opinion. And considering how civilized and polite I got my point across, I think your post was rather unneeded...

Not to mention, the 1 thing I left out intentionally. As I didn't believe in labeling an entire group of people. And that was toxic behavior from PVP'ers (as a whole). And what do you know... Look at what you just said to someone who gave their opinion, as well as reasons behind it. . .

iRageGGB

I think what they should do is have 2 sets of the skills and balance, 1 for PvE and 1 for PvP, roll PvE back 6 months (or more/less) to how it used to be and then have PvP a separate balance for the game. I don't do PvE at all but I think it's dumb I can't have 1 toon to do both PvP and PvE without either respeccing or being gimped in 1 form or another.

TL;DR: Separate PvE and PvP balancing.

Ch4mpTW

iRageGGB wrote: »

I think what they should do is have 2 sets of the skills and balance, 1 for PvE and 1 for PvP, roll PvE back 6 months (or more/less) to how it used to be and then have PvP a separate balance for the game. I don't do PvE at all but I think it's dumb I can't have 1 toon to do both PvP and PvE without either respeccing or being gimped in 1 form or another.

TL;DR: Separate PvE and PvP balancing.

I agree. That would be an absolutely wonderful idea. But unfortunately, I don't think we could ever see that happening in ESO's future. I hope though that one day ESO developers can reach that point of allowing seperation in PVE and PVP (in regards to basic mechanics, skills, etc.).

Kalifas

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Now before people go and lose their cool over the title, I'll elaborate. And give in-depth explainations as to why I say this. Not to mention I also used to be a hardcore PVP'er, until things got dull and things like exploits and lag killed it for me. Not to mention the extreme unbalance to classes. Wrobel himself even said, "Some classes are better than others." in regards to balance. So without further wait, I'll explain.

The first reason is because of class and skill nerfs. Time and time again threads arise about how this class is overpowered, and that skill is overpowered. Time and time again. And when we look at where these complaints are coming from, it's from a PVP perspective. You never really hear Nightblade and Templar complaints coming from a PVE perspective. "Gosh, I really hate how my Radiant Destruction is killing these bosses and adds off." You never hear that. But will you hear complaints about RD in PVP? All the time. It's everywhere. Now granted, I'm not saying it's a "balanced" skill. But, the main point is — PVP'ers get things nerfed. Which hurt things for both PVE and PVP. Not good. I mean, even something as basic as blocking as nerfed due to PVP complaints. Sure, that 1 dev said it was actually because they didn't want tanks just holding block while doing content. But, let's be honest. When have you EVER heard a tank complain about regenerating stamina while blocking? Lol. I never have. But, have I ever heard complaints about people regaining stamina while blocking in PVP? Tons of times. The complaints of "Block Knights" were the topic of PVP discussions for months, until ZOS did something about it.

The second thing is elitism. Now granted, elitist people are both in PVE and PVP. Sure. But, when you have select groups of people specifically targeting low-level players, and non-skilled players — that's a problem. Not to mention people having "arenas" in the middle of Cyrodiil, when there are major keep battles occurring. Yet if you interfere and kill off an enemy player, suddenly you're this horrible person and your own alliance members teabag you and won't help you when you get attacked by 4 or 5 people of the opposite faction. That's absolutely ridiculous and should never be happening. Ever. But yet and still this is a very common thing which occurs both on Mac and PS4 on NA server.

The third thing is that PVP causes players to become great angered that in order to obtain certain key and important things through PVP. Such as: Skills, skill points, gear, etc. And that is never a good idea. You should never force a crowd of players to PVP, just to obtain something. I'm sorry, but no. There would be a way for the pieces to be obtained from both sides of the coin. For example, PVP'ers whined and complained about how dungeon running was unfair. And how they don't want to be bothered with it, and how they shouldn't have to PVE to get top-tier gear. Well.. Now there is a vendor for them to go to and get monster pieces. As well as other gear sets... Yet PVE'ers don't have the same luxury. PVE'ers don't have someone they can trade in gold or tokens to get top-tier gear. Oh sure, they can use the vendor that was put there FOR PVP'ers. But, again — who is that vendor really catering towards...?

The list goes on and on about why PVP is being the source of issues for this game, and I could continue to list reasons. But, I think you all get the point. Also, I am fully aware of how an arguement could be made on the opposite side of the spectrum. And how PVE is an issue with ESO — except that this is an Elder Scrolls game. Elder Scrolls is based on PVE, lore, etc. And also, yes. I probably will PVP again, to get access to exclusive skills and skill points. As well as certain achievements. But, all and all? PVP does more bad to this game than good.

I mean, looking at from a perspective of being around since beta days until now — what exactly has PVP done to uplift the ESO community? I can't really think of anything, except for causing an uproar when Imperial City was announced, and the numerous complaints of the Tel Var system in a PVP environment. So yeah... PVP...? Not exactly something that is a highlight of this game, and should remain.

The issue with this game is not PvP in itself or PvE in itself. The issue is PvP and PvE are being balanced together. If enemy npcs have a million plus health and a player has 8-30k health. How can any damage skill designed to do big damage to a PvE enemy so fights obstacles aren't just mounds of health, be created to do big damage to a player with way less health dishing the same damage out?

The shield comment by the dev does make sense. If there is no negative to holding a shield up at all times and it has the positive of mitigating damage better, then the meta is that any time you don't block, you are performing less than optimal. If you are a good player then you would hold up the shield at all times when not activating skills with stamina regeneration staying on.If that was a meta then it would be tedious holding your shield up so often, and in that case it should just be auto mode. The only fix to that would be to have attacks that hit shields drain copious amounts of stamina to offset the constant stamina regeneration.

For the second issue. Emotions are brought out when losing, no one likes losing. When humans are brought into the equation, the emotions can become more aggressive or foul because humans trigger more charged emotions out of each other than an AI can charge out of you.

I don't like Imperial City because I am primarily a PvE player and that content requires me to possibly have to PvP in the pursuit of my PvE content. It would be the same for me as if I was doing a 12 man trial and suddenly an alliance of 24 PvP players came and fought us while we were fighting the boss of the trial. Or If I was doing Maelstrom and PvP players could invade my instance and make my trial harder while I was trying to beat PvE trials.

I agree with you. PvP and PvE should have separate content and be balanced separately. Because co-existing with the two being intermixed with balance and content is putting players with different gameplay styles into a box, where one side will get the short end of the stick or someone gets frustrated.

Sharee

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

The first reason is because of class and skill nerfs. Time and time again threads arise about how this class is overpowered, and that skill is overpowered. Time and time again. And when we look at where these complaints are coming from, it's from a PVP perspective. You never really hear Nightblade and Templar complaints coming from a PVE perspective. "Gosh, I really hate how my Radiant Destruction is killing these bosses and adds off." You never hear that. But will you hear complaints about RD in PVP? All the time. It's everywhere. Now granted, I'm not saying it's a "balanced" skill. But, the main point is — PVP'ers get things nerfed. Which hurt things for both PVE and PVP. Not good. I mean, even something as basic as blocking as nerfed due to PVP complaints. Sure, that 1 dev said it was actually because they didn't want tanks just holding block while doing content. But, let's be honest. When have you EVER heard a tank complain about regenerating stamina while blocking? Lol. I never have. But, have I ever heard complaints about people regaining stamina while blocking in PVP? Tons of times. The complaints of "Block Knights" were the topic of PVP discussions for months, until ZOS did something about it.

Guy A shoots guy B dead. Guy C sees this, and calls the police. Guy A ends up in jail.
Guy A: "I ended up in jail because of guy C" - no sherlock, you ended up there because you shot guy B.

PvP'ers are not what gets things nerfed. Things being overpowered is what gets things nerfed. The PvPers are simply reporting the issues.

Ch4mpTW

Kalifas wrote: »

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Now before people go and lose their cool over the title, I'll elaborate. And give in-depth explainations as to why I say this. Not to mention I also used to be a hardcore PVP'er, until things got dull and things like exploits and lag killed it for me. Not to mention the extreme unbalance to classes. Wrobel himself even said, "Some classes are better than others." in regards to balance. So without further wait, I'll explain.

The first reason is because of class and skill nerfs. Time and time again threads arise about how this class is overpowered, and that skill is overpowered. Time and time again. And when we look at where these complaints are coming from, it's from a PVP perspective. You never really hear Nightblade and Templar complaints coming from a PVE perspective. "Gosh, I really hate how my Radiant Destruction is killing these bosses and adds off." You never hear that. But will you hear complaints about RD in PVP? All the time. It's everywhere. Now granted, I'm not saying it's a "balanced" skill. But, the main point is — PVP'ers get things nerfed. Which hurt things for both PVE and PVP. Not good. I mean, even something as basic as blocking as nerfed due to PVP complaints. Sure, that 1 dev said it was actually because they didn't want tanks just holding block while doing content. But, let's be honest. When have you EVER heard a tank complain about regenerating stamina while blocking? Lol. I never have. But, have I ever heard complaints about people regaining stamina while blocking in PVP? Tons of times. The complaints of "Block Knights" were the topic of PVP discussions for months, until ZOS did something about it.

The second thing is elitism. Now granted, elitist people are both in PVE and PVP. Sure. But, when you have select groups of people specifically targeting low-level players, and non-skilled players — that's a problem. Not to mention people having "arenas" in the middle of Cyrodiil, when there are major keep battles occurring. Yet if you interfere and kill off an enemy player, suddenly you're this horrible person and your own alliance members teabag you and won't help you when you get attacked by 4 or 5 people of the opposite faction. That's absolutely ridiculous and should never be happening. Ever. But yet and still this is a very common thing which occurs both on Mac and PS4 on NA server.

The third thing is that PVP causes players to become great angered that in order to obtain certain key and important things through PVP. Such as: Skills, skill points, gear, etc. And that is never a good idea. You should never force a crowd of players to PVP, just to obtain something. I'm sorry, but no. There would be a way for the pieces to be obtained from both sides of the coin. For example, PVP'ers whined and complained about how dungeon running was unfair. And how they don't want to be bothered with it, and how they shouldn't have to PVE to get top-tier gear. Well.. Now there is a vendor for them to go to and get monster pieces. As well as other gear sets... Yet PVE'ers don't have the same luxury. PVE'ers don't have someone they can trade in gold or tokens to get top-tier gear. Oh sure, they can use the vendor that was put there FOR PVP'ers. But, again — who is that vendor really catering towards...?

The list goes on and on about why PVP is being the source of issues for this game, and I could continue to list reasons. But, I think you all get the point. Also, I am fully aware of how an arguement could be made on the opposite side of the spectrum. And how PVE is an issue with ESO — except that this is an Elder Scrolls game. Elder Scrolls is based on PVE, lore, etc. And also, yes. I probably will PVP again, to get access to exclusive skills and skill points. As well as certain achievements. But, all and all? PVP does more bad to this game than good.

I mean, looking at from a perspective of being around since beta days until now — what exactly has PVP done to uplift the ESO community? I can't really think of anything, except for causing an uproar when Imperial City was announced, and the numerous complaints of the Tel Var system in a PVP environment. So yeah... PVP...? Not exactly something that is a highlight of this game, and should remain.

The issue with this game is not PvP in itself or PvE in itself. The issue is PvP and PvE are being balanced together. If enemy npcs have a million plus health and a player has 8-30k health. How can any damage skill designed to do big damage to a PvE enemy so fights obstacles aren't just mounds of health, be created to do big damage to a player with way less health dishing the same damage out?

The shield comment by the dev does make sense. If there is no negative to holding a shield up at all times and it has the positive of mitigating damage better, then the meta is that any time you don't block, you are performing less than optimal. If you are a good player then you would hold up the shield at all times when not activating skills with stamina regeneration staying on.If that was a meta then it would be tedious holding your shield up so often, and in that case it should just be auto mode. The only fix to that would be to have attacks that hit shields drain copious amounts of stamina to offset the constant stamina regeneration.

For the second issue. Emotions are brought out when losing, no one likes losing. When humans are brought into the equation, the emotions can become more aggressive or foul because humans trigger more charged emotions out of each other than an AI can charge out of you.

I don't like Imperial City because I am primarily a PvE player and that content requires me to possibly have to PvP in the pursuit of my PvE content. It would be the same for me as if I was doing a 12 man trial and suddenly an alliance of 24 PvP players came and fought us while we were fighting the boss of the trial. Or If I was doing Maelstrom and PvP players could invade my instance and make my trial harder while I was trying to beat PvE trials.

I agree with you. PvP and PvE should have separate content and be balanced separately. Because co-existing with the two being intermixed with balance and content is putting players with different gameplay styles into a box, where one side will get the short end of the stick or someone gets frustrated.

Very true, and very well said of you. Solid post, comrade. +1

FullBlownBeast

OP doesn't know wtf he's talking about, plain and simple.

andreasranasen

If I see a bunch of people dueling around any keeps I will jump in and screw it up for them. You wanna duel? Don't do it around keeps! Especially when they're under attack.

Vaoh

If only ZOS could take their own advice and update every skill this way

Ep1kMalware

Ampnode wrote: »

You gave me a good giggle, self-entitled carebear. I find it worrying that every time I see you in a thread it's about you complaining about PvP. Like really, you seem to have a deep hatred for it and that's honestly pathetic. Not even going to go on about it because you can't help those who are truly irrational.

That said, go take a deep breath and relax by killing the same mob over and over again. Maybe you'll beat your personal record to see how fast you can kill it.

the only thing that is pathetic here is your destructive comment and seminfunctional communications skills.

I agree with you completely OP, thank-you for sharing!

Ch4mpTW

Sharee wrote: »

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

The first reason is because of class and skill nerfs. Time and time again threads arise about how this class is overpowered, and that skill is overpowered. Time and time again. And when we look at where these complaints are coming from, it's from a PVP perspective. You never really hear Nightblade and Templar complaints coming from a PVE perspective. "Gosh, I really hate how my Radiant Destruction is killing these bosses and adds off." You never hear that. But will you hear complaints about RD in PVP? All the time. It's everywhere. Now granted, I'm not saying it's a "balanced" skill. But, the main point is — PVP'ers get things nerfed. Which hurt things for both PVE and PVP. Not good. I mean, even something as basic as blocking as nerfed due to PVP complaints. Sure, that 1 dev said it was actually because they didn't want tanks just holding block while doing content. But, let's be honest. When have you EVER heard a tank complain about regenerating stamina while blocking? Lol. I never have. But, have I ever heard complaints about people regaining stamina while blocking in PVP? Tons of times. The complaints of "Block Knights" were the topic of PVP discussions for months, until ZOS did something about it.

Guy A shoots guy B dead. Guy C sees this, and calls the police. Guy A ends up in jail.
Guy A: "I ended up in jail because of guy C" - no sherlock, you ended up there because you shot guy B.

PvP'ers are not what gets things nerfed. Things being overpowered is what gets things nerfed. The PvPers are simply reporting the issues.

@Sharee
You're a very intelligent person, and I love reading your logic in posts. However, I have a question for you. If you pause for a moment, and think — "What if PVP didn't exist in ESO?" Do you think that the game would be in the state that it's currently in? As in class-wise and skill-wise. Here, I'll elaborate a bit. Do you think the DK's flappers, the NB's cloak, the Sorcerer's streak and wards, etc. would all be in the current condition that they are in? Had this game not have PVP? I honestly don't think that shields would be 6 and 10 seconds, if PVP didn't exist. As no one would complain about shield stacking Sorcs in PVE.

andreasranasen wrote: »

If I see a bunch of people dueling around any keeps I will jump in and screw it up for them. You wanna duel? Don't do it around keeps! Especially when they're under attack.

I don't intentionally do it, but it needs to stop. It really does. Cyrodiil is a very large and vast place. Why people feel the need to have dueling battles when a keep is flagged, and there is constant transits between all 3 factions to and from the flagged keep — I have no idea.

Rohamad_Ali

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Roehamad_Ali wrote: »

Every week you're grumpy about something . Bruh ....

BRUH! I thought that 1 out, bruh. And I'm not grumpy. I'm enjoying some pink lemonade, and watching Dexter on Netflix. Lol. Things are beautiful and smooth at the moment, and even before I wrote that. It was just something I figured I'd bring to the table. Tis' all.

Bruh .. You're just now watching Dexter ?

Ch4mpTW

Roehamad_Ali wrote: »

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Roehamad_Ali wrote: »

Every week you're grumpy about something . Bruh ....

BRUH! I thought that 1 out, bruh. And I'm not grumpy. I'm enjoying some pink lemonade, and watching Dexter on Netflix. Lol. Things are beautiful and smooth at the moment, and even before I wrote that. It was just something I figured I'd bring to the table. Tis' all.

Bruh .. You're just now watching Dexter ?

I know, I'm late to the party. Show is lit af though. 10/10 series thus far. And I'm on episode 4 of season 1.

Vaoh

andreasranasen wrote: »

If I see a bunch of people dueling around any keeps I will jump in and screw it up for them. You wanna duel? Don't do it around keeps! Especially when they're under attack.

Found a group of five having a small dueling session once. Full population server. Directly in the lane between the two keeps being fought over -_-

I jumped in, 2v1ed the "duelists" before they started their battle, then killed their friends trying to take me down when they realized their #StamNBmeta builds weren't busting me in two seconds when you roll dodge. Killed all five of these guys. Sent them all a group message saying not to duel in such a terrible spot. 1 min later a friendly zerg of 24+ players runs by lol.

I always let people duel, but in terrible spots like that, I can't handle it every time. They should know better.

Ch4mpTW

Doncellius wrote: »

andreasranasen wrote: »

If I see a bunch of people dueling around any keeps I will jump in and screw it up for them. You wanna duel? Don't do it around keeps! Especially when they're under attack.

Found a group of five having a small dueling session once. Full population server. Directly in the lane between the two keeps being fought over -_-

I jumped in, 2v1ed the "duelists" before they started their battle, then killed their friends trying to take me down when they realized their #StamNBmeta builds weren't busting me in two seconds when you roll dodge. Killed all five of these guys. Sent them all a group message saying not to duel in such a terrible spot. 1 min later a friendly zerg of 24+ players runs by lol.

I always let people duel, but in terrible spots like that, I can't handle it every time. They should know better.

@Doncellius Let me guess, NA - Scourge right? Lmao. If so, I always see this happening there. As that was the spot I was exactly mentioning. It happens every single day, bruh. EVERY. DAY. Yet if people not involved intervene, then we are the bad guys. And we get the hate mail and offensive behavior directed toward us for intervening.

Sharee

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

@Sharee
You're a very intelligent person, and I love reading your logic in posts. However, I have a question for you. If you pause for a moment, and think — "What if PVP didn't exist in ESO?" Do you think that the game would be in the state that it's currently in? As in class-wise and skill-wise. Here, I'll elaborate a bit. Do you think the DK's flappers, the NB's cloak, the Sorcerer's streak and wards, etc. would all be in the current condition that they are in? Had this game not have PVP? I honestly don't think that shields would be 6 and 10 seconds, if PVP didn't exist. As no one would complain about shield stacking Sorcs in PVE.

Well. There certainly are issues that are only problematic because PvP as such exists. The DK reflect is a good example. Devs have full control of the offensive side of things in PvE (they design the encounters), so they can balance it around the known defensive abilities of players. Infinite reflect was not overpowered in PvE because the encounters were designed with it in mind. The devs however have no such fine control of things in PvP, where certain abilities may end up overperforming, and subsequently nerfed.

That being said, your thread is about "issues with PvP". So unless you think an issue with PvP is the very fact that it exists, you should not point fingers at PvP players and claim they are what gets things nerfed. They don't, they just make devs aware of issues.

andreasranasen

Doncellius wrote: »

andreasranasen wrote: »

If I see a bunch of people dueling around any keeps I will jump in and screw it up for them. You wanna duel? Don't do it around keeps! Especially when they're under attack.

Found a group of five having a small dueling session once. Full population server. Directly in the lane between the two keeps being fought over -_-

I jumped in, 2v1ed the "duelists" before they started their battle, then killed their friends trying to take me down when they realized their #StamNBmeta builds weren't busting me in two seconds when you roll dodge. Killed all five of these guys. Sent them all a group message saying not to duel in such a terrible spot. 1 min later a friendly zerg of 24+ players runs by lol.

I always let people duel, but in terrible spots like that, I can't handle it every time. They should know better.

You and I are enemies. But I respect you out of the game lmao lol jk. But I agree, I never understand why people duel in between keeps when a keep is under attack. It's just gonna distract players traveling between keeps when they should be helping out elsewhere.

Ch4mpTW

Sharee wrote: »

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

@Sharee
You're a very intelligent person, and I love reading your logic in posts. However, I have a question for you. If you pause for a moment, and think — "What if PVP didn't exist in ESO?" Do you think that the game would be in the state that it's currently in? As in class-wise and skill-wise. Here, I'll elaborate a bit. Do you think the DK's flappers, the NB's cloak, the Sorcerer's streak and wards, etc. would all be in the current condition that they are in? Had this game not have PVP? I honestly don't think that shields would be 6 and 10 seconds, if PVP didn't exist. As no one would complain about shield stacking Sorcs in PVE.

Well. There certainly are issues that are only problematic because PvP as such exists. The DK reflect is a good example. Devs have full control of the offensive side of things in PvE (they design the encounters), so they can balance it around the known defensive abilities of players. Infinite reflect was not overpowered in PvE because the encounters were designed with it in mind. The devs however have no such fine control of things in PvP, where certain abilities may end up overperforming, and subsequently nerfed.

That being said, your thread is about "issues with PvP". So unless you think an issue with PvP is the very fact that it exists, you should not point fingers at PvP players and claim they are what gets things nerfed. They don't, they just make devs aware of issues.

@Sharee
So by that logic, do you believe that the devs just coincidently target skills and aspects of the game that the PVP audience complains about the most (e.g. The Reflective Scales skill in this case)? If there were no complaints coming from players about the DK's reflects, would it be reduced to what it is now? Or perhaps shields and other skills? Because while I usually agree with you, I feel that players are indeed responsible for things being tweaked. Oh sure, there may be certain things that are way too out of line that must be addressed (e.g. if a skill is far too overpowered). But outside of that, would those things take place? I'll use that same logic with the Sorcerer's bolt escape skill. If PVP'ers had not complained about this skill (and morphs), would it be as it is now?

Devs may be the final deciding word on whether or not a skill gets touched, but often times than not — it is the player base which influences said changes to things via constant complaints. It's been proven through the months with every controversial skill.

Vaoh

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Doncellius wrote: »

andreasranasen wrote: »

If I see a bunch of people dueling around any keeps I will jump in and screw it up for them. You wanna duel? Don't do it around keeps! Especially when they're under attack.

Found a group of five having a small dueling session once. Full population server. Directly in the lane between the two keeps being fought over -_-

I jumped in, 2v1ed the "duelists" before they started their battle, then killed their friends trying to take me down when they realized their #StamNBmeta builds weren't busting me in two seconds when you roll dodge. Killed all five of these guys. Sent them all a group message saying not to duel in such a terrible spot. 1 min later a friendly zerg of 24+ players runs by lol.

I always let people duel, but in terrible spots like that, I can't handle it every time. They should know better.

@Doncellius Let me guess, NA - Scourge right? Lmao. If so, I always see this happening there. As that was the spot I was exactly mentioning. It happens every single day, bruh. EVERY. DAY. Yet if people not involved intervene, then we are the bad guys. And we get the hate mail and offensive behavior directed toward us for intervening.

I rarely play on NA Scourge, but yes you are correct (our only poplocked server)

I am totally chill with normal duels though like in the Imperial City.

Personally, dueling is not something I ever try participate in. Solo play is my favorite way to play, hence why I always 1vX and find it mandatory to wear my Flawless Conqueror or Explorer title

The way I look at it is simple. If you provoke me to kill you while you are dueling, then chances are it's time to find a better spot. I only end dueling sessions if it's in a spot where two alliances are having a big fight. Move and find a better spot or get ready to be 1vXed!

And hate messages are guaranteed to roll in anytime I 1vX a group of players. At least 1 message every ~2 days is a complaint summing up to "Im supar OP how u kill me?? reported loser." It's no big deal lol.

Drdeath20

dem0n1k wrote: »

So... you don't like PVP anymore? OK. I still like PVP

If the NPCs could complain about OP PVE players, I'm sure they would

What happens when a good majority of the community leaves? Not bcz they don't like online video games but bcz this one isn't really that fun.

Caza99

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

The first reason is because of class and skill nerfs. Time and time again threads arise about how this class is overpowered, and that skill is overpowered. Time and time again. And when we look at where these complaints are coming from, it's from a PVP perspective. You never really hear Nightblade and Templar complaints coming from a PVE perspective. "Gosh, I really hate how my Radiant Destruction is killing these bosses and adds off." You never hear that. But will you hear complaints about RD in PVP? All the time. It's everywhere. Now granted, I'm not saying it's a "balanced" skill. But, the main point is — PVP'ers get things nerfed. Which hurt things for both PVE and PVP. Not good. I mean, even something as basic as blocking as nerfed due to PVP complaints. Sure, that 1 dev said it was actually because they didn't want tanks just holding block while doing content. But, let's be honest. When have you EVER heard a tank complain about regenerating stamina while blocking? Lol. I never have. But, have I ever heard complaints about people regaining stamina while blocking in PVP? Tons of times. The complaints of "Block Knights" were the topic of PVP discussions for months, until ZOS did something about it.

Guy A shoots guy B dead. Guy C sees this, and calls the police. Guy A ends up in jail.
Guy A: "I ended up in jail because of guy C" - no sherlock, you ended up there because you shot guy B.

PvP'ers are not what gets things nerfed. Things being overpowered is what gets things nerfed. The PvPers are simply reporting the issues.

@Sharee
You're a very intelligent person, and I love reading your logic in posts. However, I have a question for you. If you pause for a moment, and think — "What if PVP didn't exist in ESO?" Do you think that the game would be in the state that it's currently in? As in class-wise and skill-wise. Here, I'll elaborate a bit. Do you think the DK's flappers, the NB's cloak, the Sorcerer's streak and wards, etc. would all be in the current condition that they are in? Had this game not have PVP? I honestly don't think that shields would be 6 and 10 seconds, if PVP didn't exist. As no one would complain about shield stacking Sorcs in PVE.

andreasranasen wrote: »

If I see a bunch of people dueling around any keeps I will jump in and screw it up for them. You wanna duel? Don't do it around keeps! Especially when they're under attack.

I don't intentionally do it, but it needs to stop. It really does. Cyrodiil is a very large and vast place. Why people feel the need to have dueling battles when a keep is flagged, and there is constant transits between all 3 factions to and from the flagged keep — I have no idea.

We PvP'ers have tried asking for new PvP content, different areas, instanced PvP, arenas, battlegrounds, etc. The closest thing to new PvP content we've gotten in 2 years is Imperial City. So all we can really do now is complain until things are changed so that what we have to play is tolerable. That's just how I see it anyway :P
And if PvP didn't exist in ESO then it would lose a large amount of ita player base, plain and simple.

Vaoh

@Drdeath20

What happens when a self-proclaimed two-year ESO player says that ESO is:
1) A game 100% about unskilled CP501 player farming resources.
2) A game all about spamming one skill endlessly.

What happens when this type of person comments on the forums with an overwhelming support for Neverwinter, and how they are leaving ESO asap?

Well I tend to check up a little more about the really toxic individual. Turns out you have 1 star on the forums, and are trashing ESO on other threads now as well. If you're going to quit, why did you create a forum account after two years so you could talk trash about ESO just to quit it? Doesn't make sense.

Sharee

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

@Sharee
So by that logic, do you believe that the devs just coincidently target skills and aspects of the game that the PVP audience complains about the most (e.g. The Reflective Scales skill in this case)? If there were no complaints coming from players about the DK's reflects, would it be reduced to what it is now?

Correlation does not imply causation. The devs target skills that are in the most need of adjustment. Those skills, naturally, also tend to be complained about by the PvP audience the most (since that's what they have to deal with every day).

And the only way there were no complaints about a skill being OP from PvP community is if the skill in fact was not OP (i'm sure you noticed by now that the PvP'ers tend to err on the safe side in this matter - they often cry OP even when the skill is fine).

dem0n1k

Drdeath20 wrote: »

dem0n1k wrote: »

So... you don't like PVP anymore? OK. I still like PVP

If the NPCs could complain about OP PVE players, I'm sure they would

What happens when a good majority of the community leaves? Not bcz they don't like online video games but bcz this one isn't really that fun.

I guess eventually the servers will be shut down & gamers will play other games.

I'm sorry you guys aren't having fun in ESO, but many players are having fun! I see players in the game everyday... playing & loving it!

Drdeath20

Doncellius wrote: »

@Drdeath20

What happens when a self-proclaimed two-year ESO player says that ESO is:
1) A game 100% about unskilled CP501 player farming resources.
2) A game all about spamming one skill endlessly.

What happens when this type of person comments on the forums with an overwhelming support for Neverwinter, and how they are leaving ESO asap?

Well I tend to check up a little more about the really toxic individual. Turns out you have 1 star on the forums, and are trashing ESO on other threads now as well. If you're going to quit, why did you create a forum account after two years so you could talk trash about ESO just to quit it? Doesn't make sense.

It's an outlet. Initially I wanted to know if others felt the same. I came on here and yep I was right. No clue why you feel the need to defend this game. Hey you like it. That's cool. If what I'm saying bothers well that's not really my problem but you could ask yourself why does it bother you soo much.

PurifedBladez

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Now before people go and lose their cool over the title, I'll elaborate. And give in-depth explainations as to why I say this. Not to mention I also used to be a hardcore PVP'er, until things got dull and things like exploits and lag killed it for me. Not to mention the extreme unbalance to classes. Wrobel himself even said, "Some classes are better than others." in regards to balance. So without further wait, I'll explain.

The first reason is because of class and skill nerfs. Time and time again threads arise about how this class is overpowered, and that skill is overpowered. Time and time again. And when we look at where these complaints are coming from, it's from a PVP perspective. You never really hear Nightblade and Templar complaints coming from a PVE perspective. "Gosh, I really hate how my Radiant Destruction is killing these bosses and adds off." You never hear that. But will you hear complaints about RD in PVP? All the time. It's everywhere. Now granted, I'm not saying it's a "balanced" skill. But, the main point is — PVP'ers get things nerfed. Which hurt things for both PVE and PVP. Not good. I mean, even something as basic as blocking as nerfed due to PVP complaints. Sure, that 1 dev said it was actually because they didn't want tanks just holding block while doing content. But, let's be honest. When have you EVER heard a tank complain about regenerating stamina while blocking? Lol. I never have. But, have I ever heard complaints about people regaining stamina while blocking in PVP? Tons of times. The complaints of "Block Knights" were the topic of PVP discussions for months, until ZOS did something about it.

The second thing is elitism. Now granted, elitist people are both in PVE and PVP. Sure. But, when you have select groups of people specifically targeting low-level players, and non-skilled players — that's a problem. Not to mention people having "arenas" in the middle of Cyrodiil, when there are major keep battles occurring. Yet if you interfere and kill off an enemy player, suddenly you're this horrible person and your own alliance members teabag you and won't help you when you get attacked by 4 or 5 people of the opposite faction. That's absolutely ridiculous and should never be happening. Ever. But yet and still this is a very common thing which occurs both on Mac and PS4 on NA server.

The third thing is that PVP causes players to become great angered that in order to obtain certain key and important things through PVP. Such as: Skills, skill points, gear, etc. And that is never a good idea. You should never force a crowd of players to PVP, just to obtain something. I'm sorry, but no. There would be a way for the pieces to be obtained from both sides of the coin. For example, PVP'ers whined and complained about how dungeon running was unfair. And how they don't want to be bothered with it, and how they shouldn't have to PVE to get top-tier gear. Well.. Now there is a vendor for them to go to and get monster pieces. As well as other gear sets... Yet PVE'ers don't have the same luxury. PVE'ers don't have someone they can trade in gold or tokens to get top-tier gear. Oh sure, they can use the vendor that was put there FOR PVP'ers. But, again — who is that vendor really catering towards...?

The list goes on and on about why PVP is being the source of issues for this game, and I could continue to list reasons. But, I think you all get the point. Also, I am fully aware of how an arguement could be made on the opposite side of the spectrum. And how PVE is an issue with ESO — except that this is an Elder Scrolls game. Elder Scrolls is based on PVE, lore, etc. And also, yes. I probably will PVP again, to get access to exclusive skills and skill points. As well as certain achievements. But, all and all? PVP does more bad to this game than good.

I mean, looking at from a perspective of being around since beta days until now — what exactly has PVP done to uplift the ESO community? I can't really think of anything, except for causing an uproar when Imperial City was announced, and the numerous complaints of the Tel Var system in a PVP environment. So yeah... PVP...? Not exactly something that is a highlight of this game, and should remain.

As a pvper that is forced to run vet maelstrom for bis weapons in PVP I could really give a *** less about pve players having to step inside our realm for a little. I love trashing pve players.. its payback. Lol. And at least they are not subjugated to extreme levels of RNG.

PVE players can use the monster vendor as well with gold.. that they have way more of because they pve.. Also when we buy a monster piece with ap it's impenetrable which is uneffective for pve.. Soo I'm just trying to figure out what your problem is with this vendor that has helped players diversify and expierence using sets they would never have the chance to. As well as before this vendor pvp players were forced to also run dungeons.. I just can't feel bad for the pve player that had to pvp for a day and then never go back while I still run vet maelstrom with no end in sight.

In cyrodiil if I see you I will most likely attack you regardless of lvl or rank. I wasn't treated like a shiny little baby when I came into cyrodiil for the first time. If I see people dueling I let them duel.. who really cares? Those 5 or so people probably werent gonna make a big difference anyways. ZOS fault for not supporting small scale pvp.