Major Evasion Should Be Removed From This Game

juhasman

Ishammael wrote: »

juhasman wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

RNG should be removed from the combat system.

Agreed with the OP, 100%.

@Ishammael You know crit chance is also RNG? Wanna remove crit chance? Good luck.

Yes, crit is dumb. There should be no "luck" trait for combat.

Yeah lets make game without any proc chance on anything. Everyone will just hit the same amount of dmg and heal the same amount of heal. Only difference will be animations. Lot of fun....

DannyLV702

Honestly I dodge roll so much that I don't even notice shuffle at work sometimes. I guess I'll be ok if they remove the major evasion and buff up the snare immunity, which is the main reason I use shuffle

Odditorium

It would be more fun if evade were gone. I would stop using it and probably switch to S&B and use Defensive Posture

Wollust

Remove the dodge chance from shuffle, increase the snare immunity significantly, lower the dodge roll penalty.
And lower the block and streak penalty while we're at it.

Master_Kas

Morostyle wrote: »

REMOVE SOULGEMS IN PVP

How would I ress then when I accidently ride of a high cliff? :O

Father_X_Zombie

20% my a**

I'm pretty sure shuffle is straight broke, let's be honest, how many times have we actually dodged something with double take?............

Compare that to using shuffle instead...........

Draxys

juhasman wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

juhasman wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

RNG should be removed from the combat system.

Agreed with the OP, 100%.

@Ishammael You know crit chance is also RNG? Wanna remove crit chance? Good luck.

Yes, crit is dumb. There should be no "luck" trait for combat.

Yeah lets make game without any proc chance on anything. Everyone will just hit the same amount of dmg and heal the same amount of heal. Only difference will be animations. Lot of fun....

Hyperbole much?

Ishammael

juhasman wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

juhasman wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

RNG should be removed from the combat system.

Agreed with the OP, 100%.

@Ishammael You know crit chance is also RNG? Wanna remove crit chance? Good luck.

Yes, crit is dumb. There should be no "luck" trait for combat.

Yeah lets make game without any proc chance on anything. Everyone will just hit the same amount of dmg and heal the same amount of heal. Only difference will be animations. Lot of fun....

Obviously that's not what I said. Not really sure the point of this comment.

LeifErickson

KenaPKK wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

juhasman wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

RNG should be removed from the combat system.

Agreed with the OP, 100%.

@Ishammael You know crit chance is also RNG? Wanna remove crit chance? Good luck.

When crit isn't proccing, you're still dealing damage. When crit does proc, you just deal more.

The balanced equivalent for Shuffle would be if when it procs, it mitigates a percentage of incoming damage but not all of it. On live it 100% negates the incoming hit.

@LeifErickson thoughts on that change? 20% to negate 50% of an incoming single target attack, for an arbitrary example.

Eh, not sure if I like that idea either. Would that even be worth running if that's all it did?

Yes. 40% chance to reduce incoming single tartlet damage by 50% would be mathematically equivalent to live though. I prob shoulda said this for comparison's sake.

This would be 1000 times better than the current mechanic. Even after this change though, I would take it a step further and give the proc a small cooldown - maybe 1s.

But then it wouldn't scale against multiple opponents.

@KenaPKK It certainly would scale with multiple opponents, just not to infinity and beyond like it does now. I mean seriously, if 10 people are furiously lobbing and swinging sharp objects at your head, you can only dodge or mitigate so many at one time before you get your $#1t pushed in. This would add a pinch of realism to the mechanic instead of the cheese circus that sometimes takes place with it on live.

It's not about realism. It's about game balance and counterplay. Adding an internal cooldown of 1s wouldn't change much against two players because of how the proc chance and global cooldowns work, but any player added after those two would be unmitigated damage. You think that is fine, I think that's a gutted skill with how reliant stam is on Major Evasion. Whatever, I'm not debating it with you.

I sill think changing Major Evasion to something like raw 10% single target damage mitigation would be better. Without rng involved, the buff becomes consistent and predictable but still strong. People would still be notably tanky, but no more draining your opponent's stamina and ccing them only to have Shuffle dodge your burst hit. And no more getting blown up because Shuffle didn't proc 10 times in a row as if you weren't even using it.

I think this would be worse. Picture this scenario: I am fighting a stamina templar. I get him to 75% and then try to cc and burst him down so he can't instantly heal up again. If my opponent is using shuffle how it acts in live, if my hardest hitting ability gets dodged, I will fail to kill him. If only one ability gets dodged that is not my hard hitter, I will kill him. If two abilities get dodged no matter what they are, I will fail to kill him. If my opponent is using a shuffle that gives raw 10% single target damage mitigation, I would need to get lucky with my crits to kill him within the burst window or I won't do enough damage. At least with the shuffle on live, eventually in one of the burst windows my opponent's shuffle will not save him while with a raw 10% single target damage mitigation I might not even be able to kill him at all unless I get lucky crits.

LeifErickson

KenaPKK wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

juhasman wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

RNG should be removed from the combat system.

Agreed with the OP, 100%.

@Ishammael You know crit chance is also RNG? Wanna remove crit chance? Good luck.

When crit isn't proccing, you're still dealing damage. When crit does proc, you just deal more.

The balanced equivalent for Shuffle would be if when it procs, it mitigates a percentage of incoming damage but not all of it. On live it 100% negates the incoming hit.

@LeifErickson thoughts on that change? 20% to negate 50% of an incoming single target attack, for an arbitrary example.

Eh, not sure if I like that idea either. Would that even be worth running if that's all it did?

Yes. 40% chance to reduce incoming single tartlet damage by 50% would be mathematically equivalent to live though. I prob shoulda said this for comparison's sake.

This would be 1000 times better than the current mechanic. Even after this change though, I would take it a step further and give the proc a small cooldown - maybe 1s.

But then it wouldn't scale against multiple opponents.

@KenaPKK It certainly would scale with multiple opponents, just not to infinity and beyond like it does now. I mean seriously, if 10 people are furiously lobbing and swinging sharp objects at your head, you can only dodge or mitigate so many at one time before you get your $#1t pushed in. This would add a pinch of realism to the mechanic instead of the cheese circus that sometimes takes place with it on live.

It's not about realism. It's about game balance and counterplay. Adding an internal cooldown of 1s wouldn't change much against two players because of how the proc chance and global cooldowns work, but any player added after those two would be unmitigated damage. You think that is fine, I think that's a gutted skill with how reliant stam is on Major Evasion. Whatever, I'm not debating it with you.

I sill think changing Major Evasion to something like raw 10% single target damage mitigation would be better. Without rng involved, the buff becomes consistent and predictable but still strong. People would still be notably tanky, but no more draining your opponent's stamina and ccing them only to have Shuffle dodge your burst hit. And no more getting blown up because Shuffle didn't proc 10 times in a row as if you weren't even using it.

I think this would be worse. Picture this scenario: I am fighting a stamina templar. I get him to 75% and then try to cc and burst him down so he can't instantly heal up again. If my opponent is using shuffle how it acts in live, if my hardest hitting ability gets dodged, I will fail to kill him. If only one ability gets dodged that is not my hard hitter, I will kill him. If two abilities get dodged no matter what they are, I will fail to kill him. If my opponent is using a shuffle that gives raw 10% single target damage mitigation, I would need to get lucky with my crits to kill him within the burst window or I won't do enough damage. At least with the shuffle on live, eventually in one of the burst windows my opponent's shuffle will not save him while with a raw 10% single target damage mitigation I might not even be able to kill him at all unless I get lucky crits.

KenaPKK

@LeifErickson is 10% too high of a suggested value? I don't like the rng in general. I'd rather have a consistent bonus.

But something like a 40% chance to mitigate 20% damage from a single target hit wouldn't be too crazy. Still really good...

What would you be happiest with? I don't play stamina or use dodge chance much, so I'm speaking mainly from my experience against Shuffle in fights. Also I don't have a singe, crucial "hard hitter" skill that must connect to kill someone on most of my builds. I do the methodical burn into execute range, not straight burst.

RandalMarrs

This sounds like a PvP problem. Stop asking to nerf everything. Major evasion is akin to shields in damage negation.
PvP and PvE fixes need to be separated and not effect the other.

Soris

Master_Kas wrote: »

As much as I hate and love shufflemonkeys, I do not wish to see it removed like the Old miss chance (sparks from dual wield, templars blinding flashes, old cinderstorm RIP).

Stamina is OP atm, but without shuffle/evasion they would need to reduce or remove the dodgeroll penalty because you have no shields to save you.

Rather reduce the healing vigor/rally provides so they don't have uberheals on high damage specs.

Imo.

By doing this you punish non 5k wd specs. And that will function like the battle spirit buff, as lower wd specs won't be able to heal themselves.

I think best sollution would be either softcaps like the old times or change in how stamina/weapon dmg affect your damage and healing. Or maybe a separate stat for healing.

KenaPKK

RandalMarrs wrote: »

This sounds like a PvP problem. Stop asking to nerf everything. Major evasion is akin to shields in damage negation.
PvP and PvE fixes need to be separated and not effect the other.

Welcome to the PvP forum.

Shields and mitigation and dodge chance are akin but keenly different, which you clearly don't understand. This makes sense since the differences are crucial in PvP but not so much in PvE. And PvE can be balanced around PvP changes. It's not hard, and you're not special. Just because changing something in PvP would require a compensatory change in PvE does not mean that the PvP mechanic should be allowed to remain op.

KenaPKK

Soris wrote: »

Master_Kas wrote: »

As much as I hate and love shufflemonkeys, I do not wish to see it removed like the Old miss chance (sparks from dual wield, templars blinding flashes, old cinderstorm RIP).

Stamina is OP atm, but without shuffle/evasion they would need to reduce or remove the dodgeroll penalty because you have no shields to save you.

Rather reduce the healing vigor/rally provides so they don't have uberheals on high damage specs.

Imo.

By doing this you punish non 5k wd specs. And that will function like the battle spirit buff, as lower wd specs won't be able to heal themselves.

I think best sollution would be either softcaps like the old times or change in how stamina/weapon dmg affect your damage and healing. Or maybe a separate stat for healing.

It would also punish stamblades and stam sorcs more because they lack Major Mending.

RandalMarrs

KenaPKK wrote: »

RandalMarrs wrote: »

This sounds like a PvP problem. Stop asking to nerf everything. Major evasion is akin to shields in damage negation.
PvP and PvE fixes need to be separated and not effect the other.

Welcome to the PvP forum.

Shields and mitigation and dodge chance are akin but keenly different, which you clearly don't understand. This makes sense since the differences are crucial in PvP but not so much in PvE. And PvE can be balanced around PvP changes. It's not hard, and you're not special. Just because changing something in PvP would require a compensatory change in PvE does not mean that the PvP mechanic should be allowed to remain op.

I understand just fine. I said separate the two, so lack of understanding is not on my part. Thank you for welcoming me to the PvP forum. It feels nice here, makes me feel special.

KenaPKK

RandalMarrs wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

RandalMarrs wrote: »

This sounds like a PvP problem. Stop asking to nerf everything. Major evasion is akin to shields in damage negation.
PvP and PvE fixes need to be separated and not effect the other.

Welcome to the PvP forum.

Shields and mitigation and dodge chance are akin but keenly different, which you clearly don't understand. This makes sense since the differences are crucial in PvP but not so much in PvE. And PvE can be balanced around PvP changes. It's not hard, and you're not special. Just because changing something in PvP would require a compensatory change in PvE does not mean that the PvP mechanic should be allowed to remain op.

I understand just fine. I said separate the two, so lack of understanding is not on my part. Thank you for welcoming me to the PvP forum. It feels nice here.

Omg I would so love to have separate functionalities for skills and sets in PvE and PvP. That would change so much. I think ZOS is too strapped for resources to do such a thing though.

Regardless, if they would just balance player skills and sets around PvP and then balance PvE mobs and encounters around that, everything would also be fine.

But zoslogic.

RandalMarrs

Agreed, the balancing act here seems to not take all variables into account and generally focuses on balance in one aspect.

Ishammael

Soris wrote: »

Master_Kas wrote: »

As much as I hate and love shufflemonkeys, I do not wish to see it removed like the Old miss chance (sparks from dual wield, templars blinding flashes, old cinderstorm RIP).

Stamina is OP atm, but without shuffle/evasion they would need to reduce or remove the dodgeroll penalty because you have no shields to save you.

Rather reduce the healing vigor/rally provides so they don't have uberheals on high damage specs.

Imo.

By doing this you punish non 5k wd specs. And that will function like the battle spirit buff, as lower wd specs won't be able to heal themselves.

I think best sollution would be either softcaps like the old times or change in how stamina/weapon dmg affect your damage and healing. Or maybe a separate stat for healing.

What if
Weapon/Spell Damage effected only DAMAGE.
And then
Stam/Mana effected HEALING
and
Health effected SHIELDS.

Erondil

Major evasion is one of the very few game mechanics working better in outnumbered than in outnumbering situation. We need more mechanics like that, not less.
PS: Any magicka class can use shuffle and still have enough stamina to break free and co with little/no sacrifice. And there also are ways that dont use stamina to get this buff.

LeifErickson

Erondil wrote: »

Major evasion is one of the very few game mechanics working better in outnumbered than in outnumbering situation. We need more mechanics like that, not less.
PS: Any magicka class can use shuffle and still have enough stamina to break free and co with little/no sacrifice. And there also are ways that dont use stamina to get this buff.

Really good point. I did not think of it like this. This point alone makes me think that maybe it is good for the game. I just don't like how it is RNG based and often rewards players for not avoiding damage in the first place. I also don't like that it is not counterable. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure you can dodge meteors with shuffle on. I have even seen shuffle proc on an eternal hunt mine.

Qbiken

Wow, first people complain about the templars RD to be undodgable, the next day someone wants to remove the ability to evade stuff (not meant directly to you LeifEricsson). I don´t understand this community....

LeifErickson

@KenaPKK

From the replies to this thread, people seem to think that shields are the magicka version of shuffle (in that it is a defensive mechanic that stamina can't really use effectively). The thing is, shields can be countered, dodge chance cannot; Shuffle can be used by magicka builds like @Erondil said (such as waiting for the super OP unchained passive to proc); and stamina already have active dodge rolling. There have been some really good counterpoints in this thread, though, so maybe it has a good place in this game.

LeifErickson

Qbiken wrote: »

Wow, first people complain about the templars RD to be undodgable, the next day someone wants to remove the ability to evade stuff (not meant directly to you LeifEricsson). I don´t understand this community....

Lol I know right? At least you can counter radiant.

Edit: But there is already a thread for radiant so let's not get into that.

Qbiken

LeifErickson wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Wow, first people complain about the templars RD to be undodgable, the next day someone wants to remove the ability to evade stuff (not meant directly to you LeifEricsson). I don´t understand this community....

Lol I know right? At least you can counter radiant.

Edit: But there is already a thread for radiant so let's not get into that.

Agreed XD

Soris

Erondil wrote: »

Major evasion is one of the very few game mechanics working better in outnumbered than in outnumbering situation. We need more mechanics like that, not less.
PS: Any magicka class can use shuffle and still have enough stamina to break free and co with little/no sacrifice. And there also are ways that dont use stamina to get this buff.

Agree. And by this logic, malubeth is fine for solo/outnumbered fights. Agree with that too lol

Niaver

What about pseudorandom. ZOS?

joshisanonymous

It kinda baffles me that people will complain about how RNG ruins PvP in MMOs. Have you ever considered how much RNG there is everywhere in all MMOs? FFS, the person with the 20% change to dodge is relying on RNG to survive just as much as their attacker is relying on it to kill them, but for some reason it's only an issue for the attacker? And what about weapon procs? Armor procs? Crit rates? These are all fundamental aspects of MMOs, PvP-centric or not, probably because the rest of that acronym is RPG. It makes a lot more sense to complain about the rates of RNG aspects of these games, otherwise you're basically asking to turn MMOs into FPSs.

outsideworld76

Fix the lag.

KenaPKK

Soris wrote: »

Erondil wrote: »

Major evasion is one of the very few game mechanics working better in outnumbered than in outnumbering situation. We need more mechanics like that, not less.
PS: Any magicka class can use shuffle and still have enough stamina to break free and co with little/no sacrifice. And there also are ways that dont use stamina to get this buff.

Agree. And by this logic, malubeth is fine for solo/outnumbered fights. Agree with that too lol

Malubeth is actually a great set and a great mechanic.

It's just bugged and overhealing by a lot.

Please don't use a bug to jade what has been a balanced and interactive game mechanic for many months just because you're frustrated with the bug.