Major Evasion Should Be Removed From This Game

dodgehopper_ESO

KenaPKK wrote: »

RandalMarrs wrote: »

This sounds like a PvP problem. Stop asking to nerf everything. Major evasion is akin to shields in damage negation.
PvP and PvE fixes need to be separated and not effect the other.

Welcome to the PvP forum.

Shields and mitigation and dodge chance are akin but keenly different, which you clearly don't understand. This makes sense since the differences are crucial in PvP but not so much in PvE. And PvE can be balanced around PvP changes. It's not hard, and you're not special. Just because changing something in PvP would require a compensatory change in PvE does not mean that the PvP mechanic should be allowed to remain op.

Well said. I much prefer when PVE is balanced around PvP - and games that do this make it so that PVE players often have a heck of a lot more fun in PVP because the game will perform AS EXPECTED!!!

zuto40

dodge chance is cancer and anyone who says otherwise is a pug who cant fight without the 50% dodge chance it really gives

Erondil

zuto40 wrote: »

dodge chance is cancer and anyone who says otherwise is a pug who cant fight without the 50% dodge chance it really gives

Hahaha just fyi I dont use major evasion and I say its no cancer, its actually balanced imo. Also tests showed that 50% shuffle is a myth, the 20% value is actually correct.

PrinceFabious

Erondil wrote: »

zuto40 wrote: »

dodge chance is cancer and anyone who says otherwise is a pug who cant fight without the 50% dodge chance it really gives

Hahaha just fyi I dont use major evasion and I say its no cancer, its actually balanced imo. Also tests showed that 50% shuffle is a myth, the 20% value is actually correct.

Either way, 20% is too high

Armitas

Start by removing the I-Frame from dodge roll that makes it worse when multiple people are attacking. It shouldn't be there in the first place. Each attack should have it's own chance to be dodged wholly apart from anyone elses attack.

caeliusstarbreaker

1. Shorten snare durations to anything not a targeted ground aoe to 2 seconds.
2. Remove unnecessary snares, here's looking at you fear, bombard, et al. Place major snare 30% on ST snares and minor snare 15% on aoe snares.... Again only exceptions being targeted ground aoe's... Or potentially just caltrops.
3. Double the resist values on armor types.. Heavy will be the tanks they want to be, and if they have very high survivability, maybe will actually slot utility skills instead of holding the rmb waiting to die. Medium armor wearers won't be made of paper and have to rely on rng dodge chances to not take a ridiculously high amount of damage. Light armor users will have current in game medium armor resists on top of their shields and heals.

With TTK being lowered( or raised... I don't know, which ever makes it take longer for you to kill), and people not being bogged down by snares.. People should naturally gravitate to something more useful. If they aren't being brought to a snails pace, because ZoS wants everyone to stay in place and die to minimize server strain, and dying in a second.

Sheuib

This is an ability that is available to everyone making everyone equal in regards to how it works. This is not the only RNG in the game so don't talk like removing this makes the game all skill based. It is a good ability as is. It is just enough damage reduction if you are good but not enough if you are bad.

Roechacca

I ran major evasion with shuffle and double take this weekend. I can't get those results people are reporting where you dodge 80-90% of all attacks. Maybe something is off in my setup but it doesn't work on my stamblade. I dodge maybe 3 attacks in a fight.

PrinceFabious

Roechacca wrote: »

I ran major evasion with shuffle and double take this weekend. I can't get those results people are reporting where you dodge 80-90% of all attacks. Maybe something is off in my setup but it doesn't work on my stamblade. I dodge maybe 3 attacks in a fight.

You cannot stack major evasion. The argument is that 20% is too high for dodge chance.

Roechacca

PrinceFabious wrote: »

Roechacca wrote: »

I ran major evasion with shuffle and double take this weekend. I can't get those results people are reporting where you dodge 80-90% of all attacks. Maybe something is off in my setup but it doesn't work on my stamblade. I dodge maybe 3 attacks in a fight.

You cannot stack major evasion. The argument is that 20% is too high for dodge chance.

Ok. I don't think it's all that great at 20%. In my personal opinion, dodging 2-3 attacks in a fight is helpful but it doesn't decide the outcome. Most fights I get into there's about 10-15 attacks I have to survive.

PrinceFabious

Roechacca wrote: »

PrinceFabious wrote: »

Roechacca wrote: »

I ran major evasion with shuffle and double take this weekend. I can't get those results people are reporting where you dodge 80-90% of all attacks. Maybe something is off in my setup but it doesn't work on my stamblade. I dodge maybe 3 attacks in a fight.

You cannot stack major evasion. The argument is that 20% is too high for dodge chance.

Ok. I don't think it's all that great at 20%. In my personal opinion, dodging 2-3 attacks in a fight is helpful but it doesn't decide the outcome. Most fights I get into there's about 10-15 attacks I have to survive.

When you combine 20% dodge WITH roll dodge. It because a problem.

Roechacca

PrinceFabious wrote: »

Roechacca wrote: »

PrinceFabious wrote: »

Roechacca wrote: »

I ran major evasion with shuffle and double take this weekend. I can't get those results people are reporting where you dodge 80-90% of all attacks. Maybe something is off in my setup but it doesn't work on my stamblade. I dodge maybe 3 attacks in a fight.

You cannot stack major evasion. The argument is that 20% is too high for dodge chance.

Ok. I don't think it's all that great at 20%. In my personal opinion, dodging 2-3 attacks in a fight is helpful but it doesn't decide the outcome. Most fights I get into there's about 10-15 attacks I have to survive.

When you combine 20% dodge WITH roll dodge. It because a problem.

Even with roll dodge it's difficult to sustain an open fight with a NB with all the Bombard and root stacking in this patch. The 1vsX meta is possible against the cp gap and under skilled player base but I have yet to see anyone 1vsX any mildly skilled raid groups this patch using a diverse complimentary class setup with roots, stuns and debuffs.

dodgehopper_ESO

PrinceFabious wrote: »

Roechacca wrote: »

PrinceFabious wrote: »

Roechacca wrote: »

I ran major evasion with shuffle and double take this weekend. I can't get those results people are reporting where you dodge 80-90% of all attacks. Maybe something is off in my setup but it doesn't work on my stamblade. I dodge maybe 3 attacks in a fight.

You cannot stack major evasion. The argument is that 20% is too high for dodge chance.

Ok. I don't think it's all that great at 20%. In my personal opinion, dodging 2-3 attacks in a fight is helpful but it doesn't decide the outcome. Most fights I get into there's about 10-15 attacks I have to survive.

When you combine 20% dodge WITH roll dodge. It because a problem.

It sounds like you have a problem with roll dodge. I'm fine with roll dodge, the issue is more to do with infinite resources. The counter-issue is that stamina builds pull resources for defense/offense/mobility all on the same resources (I personally think we should have a separate endurance bar for things like blocking/dodging which might open things up for magic/stam builds and give a little more meaning to health perhaps.). The reason dodge is so popular (and noticeable) in pvp is that its so much better than block right now, and to an extent bubbling. I personally think general balance is more important than wrecking a couple of skills because you don't like having 1/5 of your single target attacks whiffling by your enemy and screwing up your damage numbers. This preference toward dps is great until you start wanting to gut the tank build to the point you can guaranty a win for the dps build.

Valencer

Can we also get crit removed from the game? Nobody likes RNG after all...

PrinceFabious

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

PrinceFabious wrote: »

Roechacca wrote: »

PrinceFabious wrote: »

Roechacca wrote: »

I ran major evasion with shuffle and double take this weekend. I can't get those results people are reporting where you dodge 80-90% of all attacks. Maybe something is off in my setup but it doesn't work on my stamblade. I dodge maybe 3 attacks in a fight.

You cannot stack major evasion. The argument is that 20% is too high for dodge chance.

Ok. I don't think it's all that great at 20%. In my personal opinion, dodging 2-3 attacks in a fight is helpful but it doesn't decide the outcome. Most fights I get into there's about 10-15 attacks I have to survive.

When you combine 20% dodge WITH roll dodge. It because a problem.

It sounds like you have a problem with roll dodge. I'm fine with roll dodge, the issue is more to do with infinite resources. The counter-issue is that stamina builds pull resources for defense/offense/mobility all on the same resources (I personally think we should have a separate endurance bar for things like blocking/dodging which might open things up for magic/stam builds and give a little more meaning to health perhaps.). The reason dodge is so popular (and noticeable) in pvp is that its so much better than block right now, and to an extent bubbling. I personally think general balance is more important than wrecking a couple of skills because you don't like having 1/5 of your single target attacks whiffling by your enemy and screwing up your damage numbers. This preference toward dps is great until you start wanting to gut the tank build to the point you can guaranty a win for the dps build.

No. I cleary capitalized "WITH" to emphasize the problem is the combination of major evasion and dodge roll. People who build glass cannon builds shouldnt have so much defensive capabilities.

PainfulFAFA

Qbiken wrote: »

Wow, first people complain about the templars RD to be undodgable, the next day someone wants to remove the ability to evade stuff (not meant directly to you LeifEricsson). I don´t understand this community....

People here saying dodge chance is cheese and for pugs and comparing it to Malubeth/Fasallas lol!
smh

svartorn

And people yell at templars for using RD when it's the only skill that lands on stamina builds...

dodgehopper_ESO

PrinceFabious wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

PrinceFabious wrote: »

Roechacca wrote: »

PrinceFabious wrote: »

Roechacca wrote: »

I ran major evasion with shuffle and double take this weekend. I can't get those results people are reporting where you dodge 80-90% of all attacks. Maybe something is off in my setup but it doesn't work on my stamblade. I dodge maybe 3 attacks in a fight.

You cannot stack major evasion. The argument is that 20% is too high for dodge chance.

Ok. I don't think it's all that great at 20%. In my personal opinion, dodging 2-3 attacks in a fight is helpful but it doesn't decide the outcome. Most fights I get into there's about 10-15 attacks I have to survive.

When you combine 20% dodge WITH roll dodge. It because a problem.

It sounds like you have a problem with roll dodge. I'm fine with roll dodge, the issue is more to do with infinite resources. The counter-issue is that stamina builds pull resources for defense/offense/mobility all on the same resources (I personally think we should have a separate endurance bar for things like blocking/dodging which might open things up for magic/stam builds and give a little more meaning to health perhaps.). The reason dodge is so popular (and noticeable) in pvp is that its so much better than block right now, and to an extent bubbling. I personally think general balance is more important than wrecking a couple of skills because you don't like having 1/5 of your single target attacks whiffling by your enemy and screwing up your damage numbers. This preference toward dps is great until you start wanting to gut the tank build to the point you can guaranty a win for the dps build.

No. I cleary capitalized "WITH" to emphasize the problem is the combination of major evasion and dodge roll. People who build glass cannon builds shouldnt have so much defensive capabilities.

@PrinceFabious I hear where you're coming from, but you'll notice I suggest that there should be an Endurance bar (based off of health -or even health/stam/mag). It would require tweaking on a lot of stamina abilities but might solve a lot of these problems. Mitigation should be the realm of tanks, and tanks are health-based or theoretically are health based. Right now as it stands nothing of value scales with Health except for a couple of shields. In a sense it is a sweeping change I'm offering, but I feel its the solution that's needed with the removal of soft caps (and other changes). I'm offering another way to solve the problem.

Ishammael

Valencer wrote: »

Can we also get crit removed from the game? Nobody likes RNG after all...

The difference with critical is that it's dmg can actually be reduced.

Dakrana_Thrazvoth

This thread should be removed from the forum.

kevlarto_ESO

Lets just remove all major what ever and replace them with minor only, maybe do away with cc to while we are at it.

RandalMarrs

Maybe a better solution would be a way for the attacker to mitigate the defenders dodge chance.

Qbiken

svartorn wrote: »

And people yell at templars for using RD when it's the only skill that lands on stamina builds...

This ^. Shuffle is even more cancer than RD.

Ryuho

Instead of shuffle I would like to see something like assasin class had in Aion: Focused Evasion with some tweaks ofc,
Miss 2 next attacks against u (100% chance) - duration 6 sec - why 6 sec, becasue shields are 6 sec, so stamina defensive abilty should be same. Also 1 morph could provide minor mending, resolve and ward - pure defense, and 2nd minor brutality and force.

Valencer

Ishammael wrote: »

Valencer wrote: »

Can we also get crit removed from the game? Nobody likes RNG after all...

The difference with critical is that it's dmg can actually be reduced.

Imo it's not as black and white as that though.

Crit damage done can be increased with the CP system and crit damage taken can be reduced with the CP system too. Impen reduces crit damage, but Divines can increase your crit damage if you use specific mundus stones. And even with 5 impen Im still looking at 10k+ crystal frag crits in my death recaps sometimes.

Crit chance can also be stacked really high whereas major evasion is always 20%. No way to increase it and no way to lower it. I dont know of any way to get Minor Evasion.

thankyourat

Ryuho wrote: »

Instead of shuffle I would like to see something like assasin class had in Aion: Focused Evasion with some tweaks ofc,
Miss 2 next attacks against u (100% chance) - duration 6 sec - why 6 sec, becasue shields are 6 sec, so stamina defensive abilty should be same. Also 1 morph could provide minor mending, resolve and ward - pure defense, and 2nd minor brutality and force.

The ability to cc break more than two times without using a potion is already better than any defensive ability a magicka class has

Sallington

WTB accuracy trait that counters evasion and dodge roll spam.

Robbmrp

The only 100% guarantee in this game should be in crafting items. You should never get a 100% chance to dodge something. Even 50% is too high for that. They could leave it in the game and just drop the % chance to dodge to 35-40% max.

LeifErickson

Ryuho wrote: »

Instead of shuffle I would like to see something like assasin class had in Aion: Focused Evasion with some tweaks ofc,
Miss 2 next attacks against u (100% chance) - duration 6 sec - why 6 sec, becasue shields are 6 sec, so stamina defensive abilty should be same. Also 1 morph could provide minor mending, resolve and ward - pure defense, and 2nd minor brutality and force.

That is really interesting but sounds really strong as well.

Sandman929

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

PrinceFabious wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

PrinceFabious wrote: »

Roechacca wrote: »

PrinceFabious wrote: »

Roechacca wrote: »

I ran major evasion with shuffle and double take this weekend. I can't get those results people are reporting where you dodge 80-90% of all attacks. Maybe something is off in my setup but it doesn't work on my stamblade. I dodge maybe 3 attacks in a fight.

You cannot stack major evasion. The argument is that 20% is too high for dodge chance.

Ok. I don't think it's all that great at 20%. In my personal opinion, dodging 2-3 attacks in a fight is helpful but it doesn't decide the outcome. Most fights I get into there's about 10-15 attacks I have to survive.

When you combine 20% dodge WITH roll dodge. It because a problem.

It sounds like you have a problem with roll dodge. I'm fine with roll dodge, the issue is more to do with infinite resources. The counter-issue is that stamina builds pull resources for defense/offense/mobility all on the same resources (I personally think we should have a separate endurance bar for things like blocking/dodging which might open things up for magic/stam builds and give a little more meaning to health perhaps.). The reason dodge is so popular (and noticeable) in pvp is that its so much better than block right now, and to an extent bubbling. I personally think general balance is more important than wrecking a couple of skills because you don't like having 1/5 of your single target attacks whiffling by your enemy and screwing up your damage numbers. This preference toward dps is great until you start wanting to gut the tank build to the point you can guaranty a win for the dps build.

No. I cleary capitalized "WITH" to emphasize the problem is the combination of major evasion and dodge roll. People who build glass cannon builds shouldnt have so much defensive capabilities.

@PrinceFabious I hear where you're coming from, but you'll notice I suggest that there should be an Endurance bar (based off of health -or even health/stam/mag). It would require tweaking on a lot of stamina abilities but might solve a lot of these problems. Mitigation should be the realm of tanks, and tanks are health-based or theoretically are health based. Right now as it stands nothing of value scales with Health except for a couple of shields. In a sense it is a sweeping change I'm offering, but I feel its the solution that's needed with the removal of soft caps (and other changes). I'm offering another way to solve the problem.

Agreed completely. The majority of problems with balance in this game IMO are rooted in mitigation being tied to the same resource as damage.