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Q: Current State of Bows

  • Toc de Malsvi
    Toc de Malsvi
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    @hedna123b14_ESO
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-q3lBarjDY&feature=youtu.be&a

    Alcast's Windwalker stamina sorcerer build bloodspawn, 37k 40s.

    Very very close to your bo-bo build although he stays in melee the whole time.

    I'll point out that you are very right about that Implosion proc it doesn't show up at all on his dps recount.
    Edited by Toc de Malsvi on July 18, 2016 10:57PM
    Legendary Archer of Valenwood
    Bosmer Dragon Knight Archer. XBox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)
    Bosmer Nightblade Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)
    Bosmer Sorcerer Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)
    Bosmer Warden Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)
    Templar's are evil..
  • hedna123b14_ESO
    hedna123b14_ESO
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    @hedna123b14_ESO
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-q3lBarjDY&feature=youtu.be&a

    Alcast's Windwalker stamina sorcerer build bloodspawn, 37k 40s.

    Very very close to your bo-bo build although he stays in melee the whole time.

    Those are nice deeps, I gotta say though that if I went for a dual wield/bow build my parse would be higher. The stamblade in our guild that does dw/bow pulled 41.2k
  • Toc de Malsvi
    Toc de Malsvi
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    @hedna123b14_ESO

    I appreciate the information and testing information that you are sharing but I feel as though you are not being fair with your statements.

    You state:
    If you have ever seen DK parses that are 40k plus damage it is solely because of vMA bow, dagger and axe. Take those away and they will be just breaking 30k. Gear is everything in this game, but if we compare a no vMA dual wield/bow nightblade and a no vMA bow/bow nightblade I guarantee I can make them do similar damage.

    Then you state:
    Those are nice deeps, I gotta say though that if I went for a dual wield/bow build my parse would be higher. The stamblade in our guild that does dw/bow pulled 41.2k

    The discussion addressed the perceived weakness of bows, which you disagreed with. But then you claim that you could in fact pull a higher parse if you did not run a main hand bow build.
    Legendary Archer of Valenwood
    Bosmer Dragon Knight Archer. XBox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)
    Bosmer Nightblade Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)
    Bosmer Sorcerer Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)
    Bosmer Warden Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)
    Templar's are evil..
  • hedna123b14_ESO
    hedna123b14_ESO
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    @hedna123b14_ESO

    I appreciate the information and testing information that you are sharing but I feel as though you are not being fair with your statements.

    You state:
    If you have ever seen DK parses that are 40k plus damage it is solely because of vMA bow, dagger and axe. Take those away and they will be just breaking 30k. Gear is everything in this game, but if we compare a no vMA dual wield/bow nightblade and a no vMA bow/bow nightblade I guarantee I can make them do similar damage.

    Then you state:
    Those are nice deeps, I gotta say though that if I went for a dual wield/bow build my parse would be higher. The stamblade in our guild that does dw/bow pulled 41.2k

    The discussion addressed the perceived weakness of bows, which you disagreed with. But then you claim that you could in fact pull a higher parse if you did not run a main hand bow build.

    Those two statements are accurate and do not contradict each other. If you aren't using vMA weapons the damage between bow/bow and DW/Bow is close. If we ARE using vMA weapons then DW/Bow will out do Bow/Bow. My second comment simply stated that had I used a VMA DW/Bow I would have parsed higher. However the intent was to make a build that makes PvE bow/Bow use viable. The obvious damage shortcomings can be mitigated with the fact that it is a ranged build. Which means that on fights with high mobility you can outdps melee through ease of execution.
    Edited by hedna123b14_ESO on August 4, 2016 6:54AM
  • Autolycus
    Autolycus
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    omgiztim wrote: »
    Vythri wrote: »
    Poison and Physical are now in the same CP perk, so you don't have to worry about that anymore. Bow's do enough damage to be respectable in PvE because of this. If you want to PvP with a Bow though, you're still stuck to either being a ganker, or re-rolling a melee class. ZOS refuses to see Bows as anything other than a support weapon that is used as a secondary to all other melee weapons.

    I disagree. As a stamblade, I use bow as primary for PVP in groups. I rarely stealth after initial contact and don't use cloak. With high speed and stamina I can easily dodge roll out of the front line and back behind the support of my group. Although, I can gank, I prefer the group style play much more.

    I can also kill folks off the walls in either keep attack or defense. I actually wish they would not have fixed the nightblade jumping walls as it gets quite boring sitting on top of a wall picking off people from safety. I found it far more exciting that I was actually at risk of being killed by a night blade jumping in the fight on the wall.

    I can get behind this too. I put together a set of 5 Sheer Venom + 5 Marksman + DW (can use pretty much anything for these, Leki's or vMA are my choices). It's been a blast! There's enough force behind those arrows to be a major threat for some people, and not necessarily from a ganker's perspective. I spend a respectable amount of time playing archer behind the frontlines without stealthing. The DoT that Sheer Venom puts on is all but a guaranteed kill without a purge I've found.

    On a side note, run a purge!
  • Vythri
    Vythri
    ✭✭✭✭
    Autolycus wrote: »
    I can get behind this too. I put together a set of 5 Sheer Venom + 5 Marksman + DW (can use pretty much anything for these, Leki's or vMA are my choices). It's been a blast! There's enough force behind those arrows to be a major threat for some people, and not necessarily from a ganker's perspective. I spend a respectable amount of time playing archer behind the frontlines without stealthing. The DoT that Sheer Venom puts on is all but a guaranteed kill without a purge I've found.

    On a side note, run a purge!

    On a side note, how much weapon damage does the 8% on Marksman equal?
  • Toc de Malsvi
    Toc de Malsvi
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Vythri wrote: »
    Autolycus wrote: »
    I can get behind this too. I put together a set of 5 Sheer Venom + 5 Marksman + DW (can use pretty much anything for these, Leki's or vMA are my choices). It's been a blast! There's enough force behind those arrows to be a major threat for some people, and not necessarily from a ganker's perspective. I spend a respectable amount of time playing archer behind the frontlines without stealthing. The DoT that Sheer Venom puts on is all but a guaranteed kill without a purge I've found.

    On a side note, run a purge!

    On a side note, how much weapon damage does the 8% on Marksman equal?

    It's kind of peculiar because it increases bow attacks including light and heavy attacks. Because it is a percentage modifier on bow attacks that already scale with Weapon damage its value increases as your weapon damage increases.

    So lets say with 3500 weapon damage your heavy attack hits for 8K, the marksman buff would bump this to 8640. Which if we equate a direct simple ratio between weapon damage and heavy attack, then Marksman would be roughly 280 WD increase.

    However if say you had 4000 weapon damage and your heavy attack hits for 9140, the Marksman buff would bump this to 9874. Again if we equate a direct simple ratio, Marksman would be roughly 320 WD increase.

    Note this is not a reflection of how weapon damage is actually calculated within ESO but rather a design to show how Marksman increases in value with your other stats.

    The lower your stamina, and weapon damage the lower value you gain from Marksman, the higher your stamina and weapon damage the higher value you gain.
    Legendary Archer of Valenwood
    Bosmer Dragon Knight Archer. XBox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)
    Bosmer Nightblade Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)
    Bosmer Sorcerer Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)
    Bosmer Warden Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)
    Templar's are evil..
  • Toc de Malsvi
    Toc de Malsvi
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    @hedna123b14_ESO

    I appreciate the information and testing information that you are sharing but I feel as though you are not being fair with your statements.

    You state:
    If you have ever seen DK parses that are 40k plus damage it is solely because of vMA bow, dagger and axe. Take those away and they will be just breaking 30k. Gear is everything in this game, but if we compare a no vMA dual wield/bow nightblade and a no vMA bow/bow nightblade I guarantee I can make them do similar damage.

    Then you state:
    Those are nice deeps, I gotta say though that if I went for a dual wield/bow build my parse would be higher. The stamblade in our guild that does dw/bow pulled 41.2k

    The discussion addressed the perceived weakness of bows, which you disagreed with. But then you claim that you could in fact pull a higher parse if you did not run a main hand bow build.

    Those two statements are accurate and do not contradict each other. If you aren't using vMA weapons the damage between bow/bow and DW/Bow is close. If we ARE using vMA weapons then DW/Bow will out do Bow/Bow. My second comment simply stated that had I used a VMA DW/Bow I would have parsed higher. However the intent was to make a build that makes PvE bow/Bow use viable. The obvious damage shortcomings can be mitigated with the fact that it is a ranged build. Which means that on fights with high mobility you can outdps melee through ease of execution.

    Hmm, I guess I can see how you were differentiating those two.

    I cannot adequately test this on the console, at least I do not have the time nor interest to record and go back and count each damage marker as it pops over multiple samples of multiple different setups, in order to come up with DPS ranges and ratios. I also cannot see all buffs or debuff's in real time so there is some inherent guess'timation.

    Legendary Archer of Valenwood
    Bosmer Dragon Knight Archer. XBox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)
    Bosmer Nightblade Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)
    Bosmer Sorcerer Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)
    Bosmer Warden Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)
    Templar's are evil..
  • Toc de Malsvi
    Toc de Malsvi
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Autolycus wrote: »
    omgiztim wrote: »
    Vythri wrote: »
    Poison and Physical are now in the same CP perk, so you don't have to worry about that anymore. Bow's do enough damage to be respectable in PvE because of this. If you want to PvP with a Bow though, you're still stuck to either being a ganker, or re-rolling a melee class. ZOS refuses to see Bows as anything other than a support weapon that is used as a secondary to all other melee weapons.

    I disagree. As a stamblade, I use bow as primary for PVP in groups. I rarely stealth after initial contact and don't use cloak. With high speed and stamina I can easily dodge roll out of the front line and back behind the support of my group. Although, I can gank, I prefer the group style play much more.

    I can also kill folks off the walls in either keep attack or defense. I actually wish they would not have fixed the nightblade jumping walls as it gets quite boring sitting on top of a wall picking off people from safety. I found it far more exciting that I was actually at risk of being killed by a night blade jumping in the fight on the wall.

    I can get behind this too. I put together a set of 5 Sheer Venom + 5 Marksman + DW (can use pretty much anything for these, Leki's or vMA are my choices). It's been a blast! There's enough force behind those arrows to be a major threat for some people, and not necessarily from a ganker's perspective. I spend a respectable amount of time playing archer behind the frontlines without stealthing. The DoT that Sheer Venom puts on is all but a guaranteed kill without a purge I've found.

    On a side note, run a purge!

    I've wanted to run a Sheer Venom build for a long time, however I could never get enough drops even farming it. Now I run Venom Arrow, it is not as helpful for getting kills but I find it is extremely helpful for taking on 2-3 targets when they are trying to resurrect. It also helps be counter Radiant Destruction.
    Legendary Archer of Valenwood
    Bosmer Dragon Knight Archer. XBox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)
    Bosmer Nightblade Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)
    Bosmer Sorcerer Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)
    Bosmer Warden Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)
    Templar's are evil..
  • Vythri
    Vythri
    ✭✭✭✭
    Vythri wrote: »
    Autolycus wrote: »
    I can get behind this too. I put together a set of 5 Sheer Venom + 5 Marksman + DW (can use pretty much anything for these, Leki's or vMA are my choices). It's been a blast! There's enough force behind those arrows to be a major threat for some people, and not necessarily from a ganker's perspective. I spend a respectable amount of time playing archer behind the frontlines without stealthing. The DoT that Sheer Venom puts on is all but a guaranteed kill without a purge I've found.

    On a side note, run a purge!

    On a side note, how much weapon damage does the 8% on Marksman equal?

    It's kind of peculiar because it increases bow attacks including light and heavy attacks. Because it is a percentage modifier on bow attacks that already scale with Weapon damage its value increases as your weapon damage increases.

    So lets say with 3500 weapon damage your heavy attack hits for 8K, the marksman buff would bump this to 8640. Which if we equate a direct simple ratio between weapon damage and heavy attack, then Marksman would be roughly 280 WD increase.

    However if say you had 4000 weapon damage and your heavy attack hits for 9140, the Marksman buff would bump this to 9874. Again if we equate a direct simple ratio, Marksman would be roughly 320 WD increase.

    Note this is not a reflection of how weapon damage is actually calculated within ESO but rather a design to show how Marksman increases in value with your other stats.

    The lower your stamina, and weapon damage the lower value you gain from Marksman, the higher your stamina and weapon damage the higher value you gain.

    Very interesting. Thanks for that breakdown.
  • Orlacc
    Orlacc
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    Lilarna wrote: »
    But if comparing to dual wield, can bow really technically achieve as much dps or not ?

    Not burst of course. Very useful in PvP. While the melee folks are running around or stealthing during a siege, I rack up AP.
    Edited by Orlacc on August 7, 2016 4:56PM
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