Q: Current State of Bows

Vikova

I have been away from the game for a long time while I took a break from MMOs. I am returning and obviously there are many changes. We have DLCs now, veteran levels went away, etc. People can paint their armor pink. I am deciding on a new character to level and was wondering what the current end-game status is for bows. Is it still the case that bow primary is only viable if you have enough cp for a serious poison build?

Vythri

Poison and Physical are now in the same CP perk, so you don't have to worry about that anymore. Bow's do enough damage to be respectable in PvE because of this. If you want to PvP with a Bow though, you're still stuck to either being a ganker, or re-rolling a melee class. ZOS refuses to see Bows as anything other than a support weapon that is used as a secondary to all other melee weapons.

Nestor

I have not used a Bow in Trials, but I have in both Group and Public Dungeons. If you do your tactics right, it can be very effective to use a Bow. I don't think I would rely on it for a primary weapon, but a ranged back up or something to soften up the mobs before closing with Melee would work too.

omgiztim

Vythri wrote: »

Poison and Physical are now in the same CP perk, so you don't have to worry about that anymore. Bow's do enough damage to be respectable in PvE because of this. If you want to PvP with a Bow though, you're still stuck to either being a ganker, or re-rolling a melee class. ZOS refuses to see Bows as anything other than a support weapon that is used as a secondary to all other melee weapons.

I disagree. As a stamblade, I use bow as primary for PVP in groups. I rarely stealth after initial contact and don't use cloak. With high speed and stamina I can easily dodge roll out of the front line and back behind the support of my group. Although, I can gank, I prefer the group style play much more.

I can also kill folks off the walls in either keep attack or defense. I actually wish they would not have fixed the nightblade jumping walls as it gets quite boring sitting on top of a wall picking off people from safety. I found it far more exciting that I was actually at risk of being killed by a night blade jumping in the fight on the wall.

Smasherx74

Poison inject and endless hail dots do wonders.

Lilarna

But if comparing to dual wield, can bow really technically achieve as much dps or not ?

Vikova

Also, a secondary question. When I played before, 49 HP was standard. Is this still the case?

Anti_Virus

omgiztim wrote: »

Vythri wrote: »

Poison and Physical are now in the same CP perk, so you don't have to worry about that anymore. Bow's do enough damage to be respectable in PvE because of this. If you want to PvP with a Bow though, you're still stuck to either being a ganker, or re-rolling a melee class. ZOS refuses to see Bows as anything other than a support weapon that is used as a secondary to all other melee weapons.

I disagree. As a stamblade, I use bow as primary for PVP in groups. I rarely stealth after initial contact and don't use cloak. With high speed and stamina I can easily dodge roll out of the front line and back behind the support of my group. Although, I can gank, I prefer the group style play much more.

I can also kill folks off the walls in either keep attack or defense. I actually wish they would not have fixed the nightblade jumping walls as it gets quite boring sitting on top of a wall picking off people from safety. I found it far more exciting that I was actually at risk of being killed by a night blade jumping in the fight on the wall.

Its great that you like group play but not every bow user wants to play in a group and support them. Some players want to be efficient on their own and there's only one way to do that.

Ganking.

Yep you are with a group that protects you and aggros other players. Trying using a bow on your own in open combat with no help and you'll quickly realize how irrelevant it is.

Swindy

Vikova wrote: »

I have been away from the game for a long time while I took a break from MMOs. I am returning and obviously there are many changes. We have DLCs now, veteran levels went away, etc. People can paint their armor pink. I am deciding on a new character to level and was wondering what the current end-game status is for bows. Is it still the case that bow primary is only viable if you have enough cp for a serious poison build?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbcIUmG1_1c

I have copied this build on my Imperial Stamblade, who had been magicka for a few months.
I don't know who this dude is, and I play solo in Pvp so often end up in fights I cannot win 1vx (I don't pretend I'm any good), but I've killed more readily with this setup.
Haven't ganked yet, all as a solo in group battles on common ground, and I've killed a few on their own keep walls as well.
Personal preference I know, as I've always loathed poison, but...it works.

Not sure if that's your play style but it's a useful bow/2H play style.

Toc de Malsvi

Swindy wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbcIUmG1_1c

I have copied this build on my Imperial Stamblade, who had been magicka for a few months.
I don't know who this dude is, and I play solo in Pvp so often end up in fights I cannot win 1vx (I don't pretend I'm any good), but I've killed more readily with this setup.
Haven't ganked yet, all as a solo in group battles on common ground, and I've killed a few on their own keep walls as well.
Personal preference I know, as I've always loathed poison, but...it works.

Not sure if that's your play style but it's a useful bow/2H play style.

This is the common misunderstanding. Bows are extremely powerful as back bar buff weapons, I would venture more than 60% of the stamina population in PVP uses bow on the back bar. The question is what is the state of bow's in relation to running a bow primary build, where you focus on doing your primary damage from your bow bar. This video like many others is from some melee using Poison Injection's absurd DoT damage to basically prep the target before closing and going into a fear/SA spam.

The fact that Poison Injection works better as a buff to melee execute potential is just distastefully out of whack. This is the bow's version of an execute which is supposed to help bridge the gap between bows and melee but ends up only buffing melee more. You will not find rational fair balancing though here, there is an ingrained belief that bows should be a secondary weapon both within much of the ESO community but in the developers as well.

Vythri

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

This is the common misunderstanding. Bows are extremely powerful as back bar buff weapons, I would venture more than 60% of the stamina population in PVP uses bow on the back bar. The question is what is the state of bow's in relation to running a bow primary build, where you focus on doing your primary damage from your bow bar. This video like many others is from some melee using Poison Injection's absurd DoT damage to basically prep the target before closing and going into a fear/SA spam.

The fact that Poison Injection works better as a buff to melee execute potential is just distastefully out of whack. This is the bow's version of an execute which is supposed to help bridge the gap between bows and melee but ends up only buffing melee more. You will not find rational fair balancing though here, there is an ingrained belief that bows should be a secondary weapon both within much of the ESO community but in the developers as well.

I wonder if the way to buff Bows, and to stop it being seen as merely a buff weapon for melee, is to make the up front damage of Poison Injection be the part that does the execute, all while still applying a DoT that no longer does.

This would allow true Bow users to have their ranged physical execute still, and have their DoT still, but wouldn't allow melee users to pre-DoT execute the target anymore. They could still use the skill for the DoT, but it just wouldn't be giving them that extra bonus execute damage as before.

Xvorg

Lilarna wrote: »

But if comparing to dual wield, can bow really technically achieve as much dps or not ?

why compare if you can use both?

Oreyn_Bearclaw

For PVE if you want to be competitive, bow will be a buff/DOT bar. It's just not on par with other ranged options. Can you build a viable main bar bow build to run just about anything? Sure but a magic Sorc or NB will out DPS you at range.

In PVP, yes it is great for ganking and I think it can be very effective as a main bar weapon. I think the bow is the single biggest victim of the PVP/PVE imbalance. Last time the bow was truly competitive in PVE, it was a one shot machine in PVP. They haven't quite found the balance yet. Personally, I think they need to rework Snipe. Poison Injection and Endless Hail are staples of any Stam DPS build, so it does have its place.

Luigi_Vampa

Vikova wrote: »

Also, a secondary question. When I played before, 49 HP was standard. Is this still the case?

No for dps you want all attribute points into either magicka or stamina depending on what your using.

Vythri

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

For PVE if you want to be competitive, bow will be a buff/DOT bar. It's just not on par with other ranged options. Can you build a viable main bar bow build to run just about anything? Sure but a magic Sorc or NB will out DPS you at range.

In PVP, yes it is great for ganking and I think it can be very effective as a main bar weapon. I think the bow is the single biggest victim of the PVP/PVE imbalance. Last time the bow was truly competitive in PVE, it was a one shot machine in PVP. They haven't quite found the balance yet. Personally, I think they need to rework Snipe. Poison Injection and Endless Hail are staples of any Stam DPS build, so it does have its place.

Like I've said in other posts,

1. Reduce the flight time of Snipe and it's morphs by at least half, and reduce the damage it does to compensate. Also get rid of the audio queue letting people know it's coming so they can just dodge roll out of it.
2. Change the execute portion of Poison Injection to happen with the initial damage portion of the skill, and not the DoT. Adjust the damage values for balance of course. Keep the DoT as well, but that no longer does the execute on every tick.
3. Increase the range of Scatter Shot and it's morphs to at least 17m, and potentially rework the heal to not rely on your enemy being susceptible CC's to get it. If you have to add a cooldown because of this, then so be it. The intention is to increase the reliability of the heal.
4. Change the Long Shots passive to something more useful, considering the state of gap closers in this game, the passive is almost never utilized. Have it do the bonus damage still for targets above 15m, and targets within 15m do something else. Maybe slow the target by a fixed % for a fixed duration, or have it reduce their armor values.
5. Endless Hail use to do fire damage. Why change it to physical when every other move in the Bow skill tree does poison? It would have been so simple to make it Poison instead of Fire. Something to make it more unique from it's other morph.
6. Potentially rework Evil Hunter and it's morphs in the Fighters Guild tree to give Major Brutality? Not so sure about this one, but it would allow for a pure Bow build without having to be chained to a 2H. More diversity is never a bad thing.

omgiztim

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

omgiztim wrote: »

Vythri wrote: »

Poison and Physical are now in the same CP perk, so you don't have to worry about that anymore. Bow's do enough damage to be respectable in PvE because of this. If you want to PvP with a Bow though, you're still stuck to either being a ganker, or re-rolling a melee class. ZOS refuses to see Bows as anything other than a support weapon that is used as a secondary to all other melee weapons.

I disagree. As a stamblade, I use bow as primary for PVP in groups. I rarely stealth after initial contact and don't use cloak. With high speed and stamina I can easily dodge roll out of the front line and back behind the support of my group. Although, I can gank, I prefer the group style play much more.

I can also kill folks off the walls in either keep attack or defense. I actually wish they would not have fixed the nightblade jumping walls as it gets quite boring sitting on top of a wall picking off people from safety. I found it far more exciting that I was actually at risk of being killed by a night blade jumping in the fight on the wall.

Its great that you like group play but not every bow user wants to play in a group and support them. Some players want to be efficient on their own and there's only one way to do that.

Ganking.

Yep you are with a group that protects you and aggros other players. Trying using a bow on your own in open combat with no help and you'll quickly realize how irrelevant it is.

I see your point if you are talking about using your bow for the entire fight. Bows are long range weapons. Once the enemy is in melee range you should not be using a bow even in real life. So in open world, I use bow for long range only. Back bar is my melee options. Bows should not be good at close range, just as swords, axes, dagger etc are useless at far range. Gap closer makes bow a bit less effective but I think if there were no gap closers, bow would be far too powerful.

In PVP, I love the bow. I probably use it 80-90% of the time if not more. However, I would say it truly only works for Stamblade as a Primary, as it should. A sorc, templar or DK should not be using a bow as a primary because they are not based on the true mythology of an archer or ranger as a nightblade is.

ZakuBeta

My only issue with bows is the lack of range. The damage is good for what it does, but the range is horrifically low. Snipe is the only attack that has a range greater than the gap closers. I couldn't tell you how many times someone used a gap closer and was in melee after a single shot from any non snipe ability. The range needs extended to be at least 1.5 times that of the longest range gap closing ability. Preferably with a slow added to the bow in general, and a knock down for snipe.

omgiztim

ZakuBeta wrote: »

My only issue with bows is the lack of range. The damage is good for what it does, but the range is horrifically low. Snipe is the only attack that has a range greater than the gap closers. I couldn't tell you how many times someone used a gap closer and was in melee after a single shot from any non snipe ability. The range needs extended to be at least 1.5 times that of the longest range gap closing ability. Preferably with a slow added to the bow in general, and a knock down for snipe.

I completely agree. Truly make the bow a long range advantage.

Anti_Virus

omgiztim wrote: »

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

omgiztim wrote: »

Vythri wrote: »

Poison and Physical are now in the same CP perk, so you don't have to worry about that anymore. Bow's do enough damage to be respectable in PvE because of this. If you want to PvP with a Bow though, you're still stuck to either being a ganker, or re-rolling a melee class. ZOS refuses to see Bows as anything other than a support weapon that is used as a secondary to all other melee weapons.

I disagree. As a stamblade, I use bow as primary for PVP in groups. I rarely stealth after initial contact and don't use cloak. With high speed and stamina I can easily dodge roll out of the front line and back behind the support of my group. Although, I can gank, I prefer the group style play much more.

I can also kill folks off the walls in either keep attack or defense. I actually wish they would not have fixed the nightblade jumping walls as it gets quite boring sitting on top of a wall picking off people from safety. I found it far more exciting that I was actually at risk of being killed by a night blade jumping in the fight on the wall.

Its great that you like group play but not every bow user wants to play in a group and support them. Some players want to be efficient on their own and there's only one way to do that.

Ganking.

Yep you are with a group that protects you and aggros other players. Trying using a bow on your own in open combat with no help and you'll quickly realize how irrelevant it is.

I see your point if you are talking about using your bow for the entire fight. Bows are long range weapons. Once the enemy is in melee range you should not be using a bow even in real life. So in open world, I use bow for long range only. Back bar is my melee options. Bows should not be good at close range, just as swords, axes, dagger etc are useless at far range. Gap closer makes bow a bit less effective but I think if there were no gap closers, bow would be far too powerful.

In PVP, I love the bow. I probably use it 80-90% of the time if not more. However, I would say it truly only works for Stamblade as a Primary, as it should. A sorc, templar or DK should not be using a bow as a primary because they are not based on the true mythology of an archer or ranger as a nightblade is.

There's something called kiting, archers back then would "kite" targets to keep their distance. Real people can't spam charge you in heavy armor indefinitely without getting tired. Also arrows didn't take 3secs to land on a target 20m and telegraph itself with an audio que, lastly you can really dodge roll an arrow at that range either.

Marvel comic heros such as green arrow and hawk eye and movie characters like Katniss do just fine in melee range with a bow.

Gap closers are fine but in this game they completely nullify ranged combat because they can be spammed with no penalty, infact zos encourages gap close spamming:

-snares you
-ignores elevation and can go up keeps
-deals high dmg
-can be used from 22m aways which is the ideal distance for archers
-no penalty (streak penalizes you for trying to get away, same with roll dodge)

Even if gap closers didn't exist archers would still suck the main dps skill snipe is easily recognizable and dodgeable plus we deal less dmg and have less healing than 2h builds

Lastly even though NB best synergy with the bow, every class should be able to use a bow this is an ES game if we take your logic Dks and Templars shouldn't be wearing medium or light armor because they are warrior classes

iam117

is this for pve nightblade? if so il just leave this here: CLICKY CLICKY <- click that link for bow/bow build

Toc de Malsvi

liv3mind wrote: »

is this for pve nightblade? if so il just leave this here: CLICKY CLICKY <- click that link for bow/bow build

That's great except that the guy running that build has gear that 99% of players do not have, and 95% are incapable of getting. Sharpened Maelstrom and Sharpened Master bow, they offer 490 weapon damage increase when used together. Apply poison effect with Master bow and you get 301 swap to Maelstrom and you get 189 on top.

iam117

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

liv3mind wrote: »

is this for pve nightblade? if so il just leave this here: CLICKY CLICKY <- click that link for bow/bow build

That's great except that the guy running that build has gear that 99% of players do not have, and 95% are incapable of getting. Sharpened Maelstrom and Sharpened Master bow, they offer 490 weapon damage increase when used together. Apply poison effect with Master bow and you get 301 swap to Maelstrom and you get 189 on top.

yes, although all top earning dps builds (stam and magicka) now require weapons that are extremely hard to get, so are you saying that he shouldn't use any pve build because they generally revolve around msa weapons? the current state of bows is similar to the current state of everything else in pve, to get top numbers you need specific sets, weapons usually from places most cant farm. that in its self does not mean that a bow is any less viable than another weapon build. just that to maximize numbers, you have to farm for it, in places that are not easily farmed.

Psyonico

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

For PVE if you want to be competitive, bow will be a buff/DOT bar. It's just not on par with other ranged options. Can you build a viable main bar bow build to run just about anything? Sure but a magic Sorc or NB will out DPS you at range.

In PVP, yes it is great for ganking and I think it can be very effective as a main bar weapon. I think the bow is the single biggest victim of the PVP/PVE imbalance. Last time the bow was truly competitive in PVE, it was a one shot machine in PVP. They haven't quite found the balance yet. Personally, I think they need to rework Snipe. Poison Injection and Endless Hail are staples of any Stam DPS build, so it does have its place.

Sounds like a good case for making skills perform differently on players than they do on mobs

omgiztim

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

omgiztim wrote: »

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

omgiztim wrote: »

Vythri wrote: »

Poison and Physical are now in the same CP perk, so you don't have to worry about that anymore. Bow's do enough damage to be respectable in PvE because of this. If you want to PvP with a Bow though, you're still stuck to either being a ganker, or re-rolling a melee class. ZOS refuses to see Bows as anything other than a support weapon that is used as a secondary to all other melee weapons.

I disagree. As a stamblade, I use bow as primary for PVP in groups. I rarely stealth after initial contact and don't use cloak. With high speed and stamina I can easily dodge roll out of the front line and back behind the support of my group. Although, I can gank, I prefer the group style play much more.

I can also kill folks off the walls in either keep attack or defense. I actually wish they would not have fixed the nightblade jumping walls as it gets quite boring sitting on top of a wall picking off people from safety. I found it far more exciting that I was actually at risk of being killed by a night blade jumping in the fight on the wall.

Its great that you like group play but not every bow user wants to play in a group and support them. Some players want to be efficient on their own and there's only one way to do that.

Ganking.

Yep you are with a group that protects you and aggros other players. Trying using a bow on your own in open combat with no help and you'll quickly realize how irrelevant it is.

I see your point if you are talking about using your bow for the entire fight. Bows are long range weapons. Once the enemy is in melee range you should not be using a bow even in real life. So in open world, I use bow for long range only. Back bar is my melee options. Bows should not be good at close range, just as swords, axes, dagger etc are useless at far range. Gap closer makes bow a bit less effective but I think if there were no gap closers, bow would be far too powerful.

In PVP, I love the bow. I probably use it 80-90% of the time if not more. However, I would say it truly only works for Stamblade as a Primary, as it should. A sorc, templar or DK should not be using a bow as a primary because they are not based on the true mythology of an archer or ranger as a nightblade is.

There's something called kiting, archers back then would "kite" targets to keep their distance. Real people can't spam charge you in heavy armor indefinitely without getting tired. Also arrows didn't take 3secs to land on a target 20m and telegraph itself with an audio que, lastly you can really dodge roll an arrow at that range either.

Marvel comic heros such as green arrow and hawk eye and movie characters like Katniss do just fine in melee range with a bow.

Gap closers are fine but in this game they completely nullify ranged combat because they can be spammed with no penalty, infact zos encourages gap close spamming:

-snares you
-ignores elevation and can go up keeps
-deals high dmg
-can be used from 22m aways which is the ideal distance for archers
-no penalty (streak penalizes you for trying to get away, same with roll dodge)

Even if gap closers didn't exist archers would still suck the main dps skill snipe is easily recognizable and dodgeable plus we deal less dmg and have less healing than 2h builds

Lastly even though NB best synergy with the bow, every class should be able to use a bow this is an ES game if we take your logic Dks and Templars shouldn't be wearing medium or light armor because they are warrior classes

I completely agree with you that the gap closer system greatly lessens the range combat. Either dont alow gap closing to be unlimited or give better range than gap closing on all bow skills not just snipe.

I did love the hate mail I got once "Why do you just snipe, snipe, snip. You have killed me three times now. L2P" I respond, "Why didn't you come closer to me. Snipe is my only skill that has that range. You didn't come closer for me to use anything else. I killed you 3 times, who needs to L2P?" Never got response back.

Anti_Virus

omgiztim wrote: »

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

omgiztim wrote: »

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

omgiztim wrote: »

Vythri wrote: »

Poison and Physical are now in the same CP perk, so you don't have to worry about that anymore. Bow's do enough damage to be respectable in PvE because of this. If you want to PvP with a Bow though, you're still stuck to either being a ganker, or re-rolling a melee class. ZOS refuses to see Bows as anything other than a support weapon that is used as a secondary to all other melee weapons.

I disagree. As a stamblade, I use bow as primary for PVP in groups. I rarely stealth after initial contact and don't use cloak. With high speed and stamina I can easily dodge roll out of the front line and back behind the support of my group. Although, I can gank, I prefer the group style play much more.

I can also kill folks off the walls in either keep attack or defense. I actually wish they would not have fixed the nightblade jumping walls as it gets quite boring sitting on top of a wall picking off people from safety. I found it far more exciting that I was actually at risk of being killed by a night blade jumping in the fight on the wall.

Its great that you like group play but not every bow user wants to play in a group and support them. Some players want to be efficient on their own and there's only one way to do that.

Ganking.

Yep you are with a group that protects you and aggros other players. Trying using a bow on your own in open combat with no help and you'll quickly realize how irrelevant it is.

I see your point if you are talking about using your bow for the entire fight. Bows are long range weapons. Once the enemy is in melee range you should not be using a bow even in real life. So in open world, I use bow for long range only. Back bar is my melee options. Bows should not be good at close range, just as swords, axes, dagger etc are useless at far range. Gap closer makes bow a bit less effective but I think if there were no gap closers, bow would be far too powerful.

In PVP, I love the bow. I probably use it 80-90% of the time if not more. However, I would say it truly only works for Stamblade as a Primary, as it should. A sorc, templar or DK should not be using a bow as a primary because they are not based on the true mythology of an archer or ranger as a nightblade is.

There's something called kiting, archers back then would "kite" targets to keep their distance. Real people can't spam charge you in heavy armor indefinitely without getting tired. Also arrows didn't take 3secs to land on a target 20m and telegraph itself with an audio que, lastly you can really dodge roll an arrow at that range either.

Marvel comic heros such as green arrow and hawk eye and movie characters like Katniss do just fine in melee range with a bow.

Gap closers are fine but in this game they completely nullify ranged combat because they can be spammed with no penalty, infact zos encourages gap close spamming:

-snares you
-ignores elevation and can go up keeps
-deals high dmg
-can be used from 22m aways which is the ideal distance for archers
-no penalty (streak penalizes you for trying to get away, same with roll dodge)

Even if gap closers didn't exist archers would still suck the main dps skill snipe is easily recognizable and dodgeable plus we deal less dmg and have less healing than 2h builds

Lastly even though NB best synergy with the bow, every class should be able to use a bow this is an ES game if we take your logic Dks and Templars shouldn't be wearing medium or light armor because they are warrior classes

I completely agree with you that the gap closer system greatly lessens the range combat. Either dont alow gap closing to be unlimited or give better range than gap closing on all bow skills not just snipe.

I did love the hate mail I got once "Why do you just snipe, snipe, snip. You have killed me three times now. L2P" I respond, "Why didn't you come closer to me. Snipe is my only skill that has that range. You didn't come closer for me to use anything else. I killed you 3 times, who needs to L2P?" Never got response back.

Lol gotta love the Snipe QQ as if they can't dodge roll or block it when they can clearly hear it comming.

I would love to use other skills but there is no other ranged stamina based skill.

hedna123b14_ESO

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

For PVE if you want to be competitive, bow will be a buff/DOT bar. It's just not on par with other ranged options. Can you build a viable main bar bow build to run just about anything? Sure but a magic Sorc or NB will out DPS you at range.

In PVP, yes it is great for ganking and I think it can be very effective as a main bar weapon. I think the bow is the single biggest victim of the PVP/PVE imbalance. Last time the bow was truly competitive in PVE, it was a one shot machine in PVP. They haven't quite found the balance yet. Personally, I think they need to rework Snipe. Poison Injection and Endless Hail are staples of any Stam DPS build, so it does have its place.

Ahem....about that whole no Bows mainbar in PvE thing....
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/278880/noss-bo-bo-stamblade-pve-guide-viable-in-the-shadows-of-hist-dlc/p1?new=1

Remember that guy you called a madman a few weeks ago, Im back:)))

Toc de Malsvi

liv3mind wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

liv3mind wrote: »

is this for pve nightblade? if so il just leave this here: CLICKY CLICKY <- click that link for bow/bow build

That's great except that the guy running that build has gear that 99% of players do not have, and 95% are incapable of getting. Sharpened Maelstrom and Sharpened Master bow, they offer 490 weapon damage increase when used together. Apply poison effect with Master bow and you get 301 swap to Maelstrom and you get 189 on top.

yes, although all top earning dps builds (stam and magicka) now require weapons that are extremely hard to get, so are you saying that he shouldn't use any pve build because they generally revolve around msa weapons? the current state of bows is similar to the current state of everything else in pve, to get top numbers you need specific sets, weapons usually from places most cant farm. that in its self does not mean that a bow is any less viable than another weapon build. just that to maximize numbers, you have to farm for it, in places that are not easily farmed.

No I'm not arguing that top dps need top gear that most wont acquire. Rather that outside of that top gear, compare bows versus melee outside of that range of gear and I'm saying they are not as competitive.

The Master bow and Maelstrom bow have two of the most significant enchants out of the weapon skill lines. Much like Maelstrom daggers, they massively change performance. Every top end stamina DPS build runs Maelstrom bow on the back bar because of how much it buffs the already very effective volley and morphs. The Masters bow might be changing that as the weapon damage from poison arrow(and morphs) buff appears to be gained whether you are on your bow bar or not.

The point is arguing that 1% of players are playing in a balanced world and thus the system is balanced is illogical. It is very similar to saying you will get a fair trial as long as your income exceeds 14million a year.

Vythri

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

For PVE if you want to be competitive, bow will be a buff/DOT bar. It's just not on par with other ranged options. Can you build a viable main bar bow build to run just about anything? Sure but a magic Sorc or NB will out DPS you at range.

In PVP, yes it is great for ganking and I think it can be very effective as a main bar weapon. I think the bow is the single biggest victim of the PVP/PVE imbalance. Last time the bow was truly competitive in PVE, it was a one shot machine in PVP. They haven't quite found the balance yet. Personally, I think they need to rework Snipe. Poison Injection and Endless Hail are staples of any Stam DPS build, so it does have its place.

Ahem....about that whole no Bows mainbar in PvE thing....
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/278880/noss-bo-bo-stamblade-pve-guide-viable-in-the-shadows-of-hist-dlc/p1?new=1

Remember that guy you called a madman a few weeks ago, Im back:)))

I guess I have no choice but find a way to get the vMA Bow and the vDA Bow... .

It'd be nice to see a viable build that didn't incorporate those... I'm sure it can be done though.

hedna123b14_ESO

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

liv3mind wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

liv3mind wrote: »

is this for pve nightblade? if so il just leave this here: CLICKY CLICKY <- click that link for bow/bow build

That's great except that the guy running that build has gear that 99% of players do not have, and 95% are incapable of getting. Sharpened Maelstrom and Sharpened Master bow, they offer 490 weapon damage increase when used together. Apply poison effect with Master bow and you get 301 swap to Maelstrom and you get 189 on top.

yes, although all top earning dps builds (stam and magicka) now require weapons that are extremely hard to get, so are you saying that he shouldn't use any pve build because they generally revolve around msa weapons? the current state of bows is similar to the current state of everything else in pve, to get top numbers you need specific sets, weapons usually from places most cant farm. that in its self does not mean that a bow is any less viable than another weapon build. just that to maximize numbers, you have to farm for it, in places that are not easily farmed.

No I'm not arguing that top dps need top gear that most wont acquire. Rather that outside of that top gear, compare bows versus melee outside of that range of gear and I'm saying they are not as competitive.

The Master bow and Maelstrom bow have two of the most significant enchants out of the weapon skill lines. Much like Maelstrom daggers, they massively change performance. Every top end stamina DPS build runs Maelstrom bow on the back bar because of how much it buffs the already very effective volley and morphs. The Masters bow might be changing that as the weapon damage from poison arrow(and morphs) buff appears to be gained whether you are on your bow bar or not.

The point is arguing that 1% of players are playing in a balanced world and thus the system is balanced is illogical. It is very similar to saying you will get a fair trial as long as your income exceeds 14million a year.

If you have ever seen DK parses that are 40k plus damage it is solely because of vMA bow, dagger and axe. Take those away and they will be just breaking 30k. Gear is everything in this game, but if we compare a no vMA dual wield/bow nightblade and a no vMA bow/bow nightblade I guarantee I can make them do similar damage.

hedna123b14_ESO

Vythri wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

For PVE if you want to be competitive, bow will be a buff/DOT bar. It's just not on par with other ranged options. Can you build a viable main bar bow build to run just about anything? Sure but a magic Sorc or NB will out DPS you at range.

In PVP, yes it is great for ganking and I think it can be very effective as a main bar weapon. I think the bow is the single biggest victim of the PVP/PVE imbalance. Last time the bow was truly competitive in PVE, it was a one shot machine in PVP. They haven't quite found the balance yet. Personally, I think they need to rework Snipe. Poison Injection and Endless Hail are staples of any Stam DPS build, so it does have its place.

Ahem....about that whole no Bows mainbar in PvE thing....
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/278880/noss-bo-bo-stamblade-pve-guide-viable-in-the-shadows-of-hist-dlc/p1?new=1

Remember that guy you called a madman a few weeks ago, Im back:)))

I guess I have no choice but find a way to get the vMA Bow and the vDA Bow... .

It'd be nice to see a viable build that didn't incorporate those... I'm sure it can be done though.

You don't have to use those, but the highest damage will be achieved with them together. I'd say if you replace those two bows with regular bows you would lose around 10-15% dps, so instead of 37k unbuffed it would be 30-33k

Vythri

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Vythri wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

For PVE if you want to be competitive, bow will be a buff/DOT bar. It's just not on par with other ranged options. Can you build a viable main bar bow build to run just about anything? Sure but a magic Sorc or NB will out DPS you at range.

In PVP, yes it is great for ganking and I think it can be very effective as a main bar weapon. I think the bow is the single biggest victim of the PVP/PVE imbalance. Last time the bow was truly competitive in PVE, it was a one shot machine in PVP. They haven't quite found the balance yet. Personally, I think they need to rework Snipe. Poison Injection and Endless Hail are staples of any Stam DPS build, so it does have its place.

Ahem....about that whole no Bows mainbar in PvE thing....
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/278880/noss-bo-bo-stamblade-pve-guide-viable-in-the-shadows-of-hist-dlc/p1?new=1

Remember that guy you called a madman a few weeks ago, Im back:)))

I guess I have no choice but find a way to get the vMA Bow and the vDA Bow... .

It'd be nice to see a viable build that didn't incorporate those... I'm sure it can be done though.

You don't have to use those, but the highest damage will be achieved with them together. I'd say if you replace those two bows with regular bows you would lose around 10-15% dps, so instead of 37k unbuffed it would be 30-33k

What enchants would you run? Weapon Damage on both?