Q: Current State of Bows

hedna123b14_ESO · July 2016

Vythri wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Vythri wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

For PVE if you want to be competitive, bow will be a buff/DOT bar. It's just not on par with other ranged options. Can you build a viable main bar bow build to run just about anything? Sure but a magic Sorc or NB will out DPS you at range.

In PVP, yes it is great for ganking and I think it can be very effective as a main bar weapon. I think the bow is the single biggest victim of the PVP/PVE imbalance. Last time the bow was truly competitive in PVE, it was a one shot machine in PVP. They haven't quite found the balance yet. Personally, I think they need to rework Snipe. Poison Injection and Endless Hail are staples of any Stam DPS build, so it does have its place.

Ahem....about that whole no Bows mainbar in PvE thing....
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/278880/noss-bo-bo-stamblade-pve-guide-viable-in-the-shadows-of-hist-dlc/p1?new=1

Remember that guy you called a madman a few weeks ago, Im back:)))

I guess I have no choice but find a way to get the vMA Bow and the vDA Bow... .

It'd be nice to see a viable build that didn't incorporate those... I'm sure it can be done though.

You don't have to use those, but the highest damage will be achieved with them together. I'd say if you replace those two bows with regular bows you would lose around 10-15% dps, so instead of 37k unbuffed it would be 30-33k

What enchants would you run? Weapon Damage on both?

Probably

Xvorg · July 2016

liv3mind wrote: »

is this for pve nightblade? if so il just leave this here: CLICKY CLICKY <- click that link for bow/bow build

Change that useless killer's blade for something useful such as prolonged suffering.

Just try this: shooting star/Ic comet -> prolonged suffering -> poison inject.

Vythri · July 2016

Xvorg wrote: »

liv3mind wrote: »

is this for pve nightblade? if so il just leave this here: CLICKY CLICKY <- click that link for bow/bow build

Change that useless killer's blade for something useful such as prolonged suffering.

Just try this: shooting star/Ic comet -> prolonged suffering -> poison inject.

That's a PvE build.

Orlacc · July 2016

What is the Thaum for as Mighty affects poison?

Toc de Malsvi · July 2016

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

If you have ever seen DK parses that are 40k plus damage it is solely because of vMA bow, dagger and axe. Take those away and they will be just breaking 30k. Gear is everything in this game, but if we compare a no vMA dual wield/bow nightblade and a no vMA bow/bow nightblade I guarantee I can make them do similar damage.

This would be something to see that would provide much better data for the average player about performance. I hesitate to say it wouldn't be similar because I've seen a few parses that come up pretty on par. I've seen considerably more parses where it comes up short. Personally I've found that bow for PVE is significantly gimped for output if you are not a NB or with the latest changes a Sorc.

hedna123b14_ESO · July 2016

Orlacc wrote: »

What is the Thaum for as Mighty affects poison?

Thaumaturge affects your DoTs.

hedna123b14_ESO · July 2016

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

If you have ever seen DK parses that are 40k plus damage it is solely because of vMA bow, dagger and axe. Take those away and they will be just breaking 30k. Gear is everything in this game, but if we compare a no vMA dual wield/bow nightblade and a no vMA bow/bow nightblade I guarantee I can make them do similar damage.

This would be something to see that would provide much better data for the average player about performance. I hesitate to say it wouldn't be similar because I've seen a few parses that come up pretty on par. I've seen considerably more parses where it comes up short. Personally I've found that bow for PVE is significantly gimped for output if you are not a NB or with the latest changes a Sorc.

I agree, I think NB is the class that has the best capacity for making Bow viable.

kadar · July 2016

Vikova wrote: »

I have been away from the game for a long time while I took a break from MMOs. I am returning and obviously there are many changes. We have DLCs now, veteran levels went away, etc. People can paint their armor pink. I am deciding on a new character to level and was wondering what the current end-game status is for bows. Is it still the case that bow primary is only viable if you have enough cp for a serious poison build?

To answer you're question: Yes, bow is extremely viable as a primary weapon. What everyone in this thread is discussing, is whether it is out-performed by other weapon lines. Many, many things in ESO are viable, but not the best.

Orlacc · July 2016

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Orlacc wrote: »

What is the Thaum for as Mighty affects poison?

Thaumaturge affects your DoTs.

Sorry but which DOT as poison is not a DOT according to ZOS. Seriously, as I have basically the same build and would like more poison power.

hedna123b14_ESO · July 2016

Orlacc wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Orlacc wrote: »

What is the Thaum for as Mighty affects poison?

Thaumaturge affects your DoTs.

Sorry but which DOT as poison is not a DOT according to ZOS. Seriously, as I have basically the same build and would like more poison power.

Posion status effect is a DoT, Poison Injection is a DoT, Endless hail is a DoT, there are many others.

Thevorpal1 · July 2016

Vikova wrote: »

I have been away from the game for a long time while I took a break from MMOs. I am returning and obviously there are many changes. We have DLCs now, veteran levels went away, etc. People can paint their armor pink. I am deciding on a new character to level and was wondering what the current end-game status is for bows. Is it still the case that bow primary is only viable if you have enough cp for a serious poison build?

I've used bow in both pvp and pve. For pvp I use it to defend keeps and is relegated to my buff bar.

For Pve I use bow bar as a buff bar and to apply my dots then switch to dual wield to dps.

It's been a long time since I've tried to make bow my main dps as there are better alternatives for increased dps.

Francescolg · July 2016

Caltrops, Bow DoT, GTAE, rearming trap and one spam attack (rapid strikes/../...) + animation cancelling, is a very nice way to teach the rotation to new players!

Acsvf · July 2016

Orlacc wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Orlacc wrote: »

What is the Thaum for as Mighty affects poison?

Thaumaturge affects your DoTs.

Sorry but which DOT as poison is not a DOT according to ZOS. Seriously, as I have basically the same build and would like more poison power.

Thaumaturge affects all DoTs.

Damage over time refers to how the ability works. The damage type has absolutely nothing to do with it.

cpuScientist · July 2016

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

This would be something to see that would provide much better data for the average player about performance. I hesitate to say it wouldn't be similar because I've seen a few parses that come up pretty on par. I've seen considerably more parses where it comes up short. Personally I've found that bow for PVE is significantly gimped for output if you are not a NB or with the latest changes a Sorc.

What makes a Sorc good with bow? I main a Stan sorc so I'd just like to know what synergy I am missing lol. @Toc de Malsvi

Vangy · July 2016

Bow is perfectly capable of achieving at least 35k DPS. Which is about the benchmark for most average players DPS. Dont run the typical 5 hundings or 5 TBS builds. Those are meta-DW pve builds. Im not gona go giving away my secrets but there's quite a few parses/builds posted over the forums by people

Toc de Malsvi · July 2016

cpuScientist wrote: »

What makes a Sorc good with bow? I main a Stan sorc so I'd just like to know what synergy I am missing lol. @Toc de Malsvi

@cpuScientist
So it's kind of important to understand how class passives benefit your setup. In particular in relation to bow primary setups, there are not really any class skills that morph into ranged stamina dps options.

As far as stamina morphs in relation to class skill lines: DK's have two melee Dots, NB's have a melee execute, a melee spammable direct damage, a gap closer, a melee aoe, Sorcs have a melee aoe Dot, and Templars have a ranged knockdown and a ranged unique debuff, and melee channeled attack.

As you can quickly see class skill morphs do not directly add to stamina ranged dps, which means class skills are looked to more for utility, or more specifically to the skill/skill tree passives that support ranged dps. Now each class offers a minor buff group wide, DK's Minor brutality and NB's Minor Savagery are the really beneficial buffs to stamina dps, however they are group wide so lets assume you will either be a DK/NB or have one nearby 90% of the time.

What is left is an overall evaluation of class skill/skill tree passives and how they buff ranged stamina DPS, in order to keep this from getting ridiculously out of hand I will only address utility that directly effects stamina resource management:

DK's:
DK's primary buffs that are pertinent to ranged stamina dps are 40% to fully charged heavy attacks, Major Brutality, that's it as far as dps support to ranged, fully charged heavy attacks are always a dps loss outside of the opening attack so this is a non factor.
DK's get utility buffs through 5% stamina return from EH passives, stamina return upon ultimate usage.

NB's:
NB's primary buffs that are pertinent to ranged stamina dps are: Minor Berserk, 2% weapon crit for each Assassination tree skill slotted, and 10% more to critical damage.
NB's utility buff's 25% stamina regen, unique skill that allows NB's to return stamina from regular attacks as well as skills used.

Templar's:
Templars primary buffs that are pertinent to ranged stamina dps are: 10% more critical damage, 10% more damage against blocking targets, 6% weapon damage.
Templars utility buff's 4% stamina/ult cost reduction, 20% stamina recovery.

Sorcerer's:
Sorcerers primary buffs that are pertinent to ranged stamina dps are: 8% maximum stamina, 11% to all heavy attack including medium weaves, 5% more physical damage, 2% weapon damage per sorc ability slotted, Major Brutality, Implosion(6% chance to deal 4375 physical damage to targets below 15%).
Sorcerers utility buffs: 5% cost reduction to all stamina abilities, 15% ultimate cost reduction, 20% stamina recovery.

It is important to note how significant Minor Berserk is to ranged dps and how insignificant Major Brutality is. Brutality increases the weapon damage which increase one side of your damage modifier for each skill, it is also attainable from a variety of sources including potions. Berserk increases the total damage after damage modifiers are applied, and is only attainable from NB's Grim Focus(24s), or resto staff Combat Prayer(8s).

Outside of that Sorc's have a massive advantage over everyone else for ranged stamina dps. Sorc passives make them comparable to NB's 24 seconds of Minor Berserk. Specifically speaking Implosion works very well for ranged dps. Consider that Bow's do not have a true execute but a DoT that works as an execute, also consider that Volley ticks every 0.5 seconds and Implosion proc's on physical damage.

Volley+Caltrops means a stam sorc will get more out of Implosion on large add groups where often targets get low and die before you can target and execute. On Bosses 15% of health does go fast but is still a significant time period of dps, Implosion(volley+caltrops)+poison injection means a Sorc Archer will have more execute than any other archer who is staying at range.

Thus Sorcerers make very good PVE archers, and due to crit surge healing and offering Major Brutality sorcerers were and are the original bow/bow build. NB's have one skill that makes them more than competitive with sorc's here and that is Relentless Focus and only because it offers Minor Berserk.

hedna123b14_ESO · July 2016

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

cpuScientist wrote: »

What makes a Sorc good with bow? I main a Stan sorc so I'd just like to know what synergy I am missing lol. @Toc de Malsvi

@cpuScientist
So it's kind of important to understand how class passives benefit your setup. In particular in relation to bow primary setups, there are not really any class skills that morph into ranged stamina dps options.

As far as stamina morphs in relation to class skill lines: DK's have two melee Dots, NB's have a melee execute, a melee spammable direct damage, a gap closer, a melee aoe, Sorcs have a melee aoe Dot, and Templars have a ranged knockdown and a ranged unique debuff, and melee channeled attack.

As you can quickly see class skill morphs do not directly add to stamina ranged dps, which means class skills are looked to more for utility, or more specifically to the skill/skill tree passives that support ranged dps. Now each class offers a minor buff group wide, DK's Minor brutality and NB's Minor Savagery are the really beneficial buffs to stamina dps, however they are group wide so lets assume you will either be a DK/NB or have one nearby 90% of the time.

What is left is an overall evaluation of class skill/skill tree passives and how they buff ranged stamina DPS, in order to keep this from getting ridiculously out of hand I will only address utility that directly effects stamina resource management:

DK's:
DK's primary buffs that are pertinent to ranged stamina dps are 40% to fully charged heavy attacks, Major Brutality, that's it as far as dps support to ranged, fully charged heavy attacks are always a dps loss outside of the opening attack so this is a non factor.
DK's get utility buffs through 5% stamina return from EH passives, stamina return upon ultimate usage.

NB's:
NB's primary buffs that are pertinent to ranged stamina dps are: Minor Berserk, 2% weapon crit for each Assassination tree skill slotted, and 10% more to critical damage.
NB's utility buff's 25% stamina regen, unique skill that allows NB's to return stamina from regular attacks as well as skills used.

Templar's:
Templars primary buffs that are pertinent to ranged stamina dps are: 10% more critical damage, 10% more damage against blocking targets, 6% weapon damage.
Templars utility buff's 4% stamina/ult cost reduction, 20% stamina recovery.

Sorcerer's:
Sorcerers primary buffs that are pertinent to ranged stamina dps are: 8% maximum stamina, 11% to all heavy attack including medium weaves, 5% more physical damage, 2% weapon damage per sorc ability slotted, Major Brutality, Implosion(6% chance to deal 4375 physical damage to targets below 15%).
Sorcerers utility buffs: 5% cost reduction to all stamina abilities, 15% ultimate cost reduction, 20% stamina recovery.

It is important to note how significant Minor Berserk is to ranged dps and how insignificant Major Brutality is. Brutality increases the weapon damage which increase one side of your damage modifier for each skill, it is also attainable from a variety of sources including potions. Berserk increases the total damage after damage modifiers are applied, and is only attainable from NB's Grim Focus(24s), or resto staff Combat Prayer(8s).

Outside of that Sorc's have a massive advantage over everyone else for ranged stamina dps. Sorc passives make them comparable to NB's 24 seconds of Minor Berserk. Specifically speaking Implosion works very well for ranged dps. Consider that Bow's do not have a true execute but a DoT that works as an execute, also consider that Volley ticks every 0.5 seconds and Implosion proc's on physical damage.

Volley+Caltrops means a stam sorc will get more out of Implosion on large add groups where often targets get low and die before you can target and execute. On Bosses 15% of health does go fast but is still a significant time period of dps, Implosion(volley+caltrops)+poison injection means a Sorc Archer will have more execute than any other archer who is staying at range.

Thus Sorcerers make very good PVE archers, and due to crit surge healing and offering Major Brutality sorcerers were and are the original bow/bow build. NB's have one skill that makes them more than competitive with sorc's here and that is Relentless Focus and only because it offers Minor Berserk.

Great assesament, but I would have to disagree with you. NB offer the highest DPS potential for an archer and it isntlb@yandex.ru simply because of minor berserk.
1. Nightblades unlike sorcs and DK'S have a 10% critical damage passive that unlike templars does not have to be slotted to provide its benefit.
2. In addition to the passive crit damage they get bonusespecially to crit from their assassination skill line.
3. The stam morph of assasin's will is a ranged ability and thus can be used while using Bow. Nightblades have passive stam regen that helps with resource management.
4. Nightblades can take advantage of the stealth passive to ensure a high initial burst damage.
5. Implosion doesn't proc as often as you'd like and especially on single target.

Toc de Malsvi · July 2016

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Great assesament, but I would have to disagree with you. NB offer the highest DPS potential for an archer and it isntlb@yandex.ru simply because of minor berserk.
1. Nightblades unlike sorcs and DK'S have a 10% critical damage passive that unlike templars does not have to be slotted to provide its benefit.
2. In addition to the passive crit damage they get bonusespecially to crit from their assassination skill line.
3. The stam morph of assasin's will is a ranged ability and thus can be used while using Bow. Nightblades have passive stam regen that helps with resource management.
4. Nightblades can take advantage of the stealth passive to ensure a high initial burst damage.
5. Implosion doesn't proc as often as you'd like and especially on single target.

I am not discounting the 10% critical damage simply I think it is a wash when considering sorc passives. Personally I think it is the Minor Berserk that takes NB's over the top for ranged, I forgot to mention the procc'ed cast potential of Relentless Focus(Assassins will) I do think though that while it is nice from what I can see the 24 seconds of Minor Berserk far out weighs the procc'ed cast.

I am not on PC so I cannot actually test Sorc versus NB for maximum bow dps. Also although I have two max level stam Khajit one NB one Sorc, I spend most of my time on my stam DK archer. Also by stating: "more than competitive" I was implying that NB's are better, I'm just not sure they are solidly better in all scenario's.

hedna123b14_ESO · July 2016

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Great assesament, but I would have to disagree with you. NB offer the highest DPS potential for an archer and it isntlb@yandex.ru simply because of minor berserk.
1. Nightblades unlike sorcs and DK'S have a 10% critical damage passive that unlike templars does not have to be slotted to provide its benefit.
2. In addition to the passive crit damage they get bonusespecially to crit from their assassination skill line.
3. The stam morph of assasin's will is a ranged ability and thus can be used while using Bow. Nightblades have passive stam regen that helps with resource management.
4. Nightblades can take advantage of the stealth passive to ensure a high initial burst damage.
5. Implosion doesn't proc as often as you'd like and especially on single target.

I am not discounting the 10% critical damage simply I think it is a wash when considering sorc passives. Personally I think it is the Minor Berserk that takes NB's over the top for ranged, I forgot to mention the procc'ed cast potential of Relentless Focus(Assassins will) I do think though that while it is nice from what I can see the 24 seconds of Minor Berserk far out weighs the procc'ed cast.

I am not on PC so I cannot actually test Sorc versus NB for maximum bow dps. Also although I have two max level stam Khajit one NB one Sorc, I spend most of my time on my stam DK archer. Also by stating: "more than competitive" I was implying that NB's are better, I'm just not sure they are solidly better in all scenario's.

Ahh I gotcha. But the only thing sorcs offer to ranged DPS is implosion, the weapon damage gain from skills is lackluster and the 10% crit damage is just too good to pass up from nightblade, even if you take relentless focus out of equation. I run a magicka sorc and I have 3 DoT's on the target at all times, similarly to stam. Yet my implosion rarely contributes a significant am9unt to my DPS. Stam has a slight advantage over magicka since Endless Hail ticks every .5 seconds. But it's not a huge difference. As for dps in general crit damage is one of the strongest buffs you can get. When synergizes with the right setup it is a huge dps gain. I was developing a bow setup for next patch and I tried it in several different classes I found the NB surpasses all others by a wide margin. I was able to get 37k unbuffed on bloodspawn.

Toc de Malsvi · July 2016

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Ahh I gotcha. But the only thing sorcs offer to ranged DPS is implosion, the weapon damage gain from skills is lackluster and the 10% crit damage is just too good to pass up from nightblade, even if you take relentless focus out of equation. I run a magicka sorc and I have 3 DoT's on the target at all times, similarly to stam. Yet my implosion rarely contributes a significant am9unt to my DPS. Stam has a slight advantage over magicka since Endless Hail ticks every .5 seconds. But it's not a huge difference. As for dps in general crit damage is one of the strongest buffs you can get. When synergizes with the right setup it is a huge dps gain. I was developing a bow setup for next patch and I tried it in several different classes I found the NB surpasses all others by a wide margin. I was able to get 37k unbuffed on bloodspawn.

But the only thing sorcs offer to ranged DPS is implosion: I just highlighted bonus' for ranged. It is much more than just implosion.

If you are running bound armor you are getting 8% stam that NB's don't get.

5% physical damage: focused aim, endless hail, caltrops, light/heavy attacks all benefit, only thing that wouldn't is Poison Injection.

If you are medium weaving Focused Aim(which as far as I'm aware is how Focused Aim should be utilized) then 11% stronger medium weaves.

Most likely you will used Flawless DB so most likely you will only get 2% Weapon damage from the class weapon damage buff.

That is all outside of Implosion, which is only a subtle perk towards execution. I've heard that it's proc rate is terrible again I cant factually check, nor compare based on which skills are being used with it. I think you would need to be stacking physical DoTs to get any real value.

The biggest error I see from Sorc's is failing to run bound armaments.

I have looked at your linked images for that bloodspawn run. I have to default to that, Sorc definitely has some of the best stamina passives in the game though and I think they far outweigh DK and are a good lead over Templar.

cpuScientist · July 2016

GREAT discussion guys. I am taking notes lol. I have always wanted to try the bow bow build. And was excited to see the VDSA bow getting scaled. Cannot wait to get in and test some things out on my Stam Sorc Orc. Hopefully I can get comoetitive DPS to be able to pull out the bow bow.

Toc de Malsvi · July 2016

I run a magicka sorc and I have 3 DoT's on the target at all times, similarly to stam. Yet my implosion rarely contributes a significant am9unt to my DPS.

Which Dots? Also are you using a lighting staff?

Implosion only proc's off of Shock or physical damage. So for Liquid Lightning that is once every second, but unless you are running a lighting staff then none of the Dots from Destro staff will proc it. Curse only proc's once in 3.5 seconds.

Endless Hail proc's every 0.5 seconds, Caltrops every second, Trap Beast every 2 seconds or so. Hurricane every second, but requires you to be within at least 9m at largest area.

So for Ranged physical you could get at least 3 DoT ticks a second, and 10 every 3.5 seconds. Moving to melee and that is 13 every 3.5 seconds.

Where if you are not running a lighting staff your talking 1 Dot tick a second, and 4 every 3.5 seconds. Using a lighting staff brings you up to at least 2 per second, and 7 every 3.5 seconds. Moving to melee and that is 10 every 3.5 seconds.

So Implosion should definitely benefit Stamina more, although how much more I'm not sure.

hedna123b14_ESO · July 2016

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Ahh I gotcha. But the only thing sorcs offer to ranged DPS is implosion, the weapon damage gain from skills is lackluster and the 10% crit damage is just too good to pass up from nightblade, even if you take relentless focus out of equation. I run a magicka sorc and I have 3 DoT's on the target at all times, similarly to stam. Yet my implosion rarely contributes a significant am9unt to my DPS. Stam has a slight advantage over magicka since Endless Hail ticks every .5 seconds. But it's not a huge difference. As for dps in general crit damage is one of the strongest buffs you can get. When synergizes with the right setup it is a huge dps gain. I was developing a bow setup for next patch and I tried it in several different classes I found the NB surpasses all others by a wide margin. I was able to get 37k unbuffed on bloodspawn.

But the only thing sorcs offer to ranged DPS is implosion: I just highlighted bonus' for ranged. It is much more than just implosion.

If you are running bound armor you are getting 8% stam that NB's don't get.

5% physical damage: focused aim, endless hail, caltrops, light/heavy attacks all benefit, only thing that wouldn't is Poison Injection.

If you are medium weaving Focused Aim(which as far as I'm aware is how Focused Aim should be utilized) then 11% stronger medium weaves.

Most likely you will used Flawless DB so most likely you will only get 2% Weapon damage from the class weapon damage buff.

That is all outside of Implosion, which is only a subtle perk towards execution. I've heard that it's proc rate is terrible again I cant factually check, nor compare based on which skills are being used with it. I think you would need to be stacking physical DoTs to get any real value.

The biggest error I see from Sorc's is failing to run bound armaments.

I have looked at your linked images for that bloodspawn run. I have to default to that, Sorc definitely has some of the best stamina passives in the game though and I think they far outweigh DK and are a good lead over Templar.

Hey so you bring up some good points, so I'll adress themy one by one.
1. Bound Armaments- 8% more stamina and 11% more heavy attack damage. As far as I'm aware this bonus only applies to fully charged heavy attacks. Medium weaves (what you do when you use focus aim) do not gain a damage bonus. This is akin to the DK molten armaments. Using fully charged bow attacks with focus aim results in a dps loss.

Now as for the 8% stam. The 8% is on top of your base for example my redguard StamDK has 37.3k stam, but only 33.3k base. 8% more stamina gets u around 2.67k more stam, which is roughly equivalent to 255 weapon damage.
2. 5% increased damage to physical is indeed huge. However the nightblade 10% critical damage increase offers 6.14% increased damage to all skills after application of raid buffsetup. Meaning 10% increased critical damage is a lot better at high crit endgame meta.
3. Here is how the breakdown of classes goes for stam. StamNB shares first place with StamDK, but slightly aheadifferent in terms of single target. Stam sorc has the highest AoE damage.

hedna123b14_ESO · July 2016

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

I run a magicka sorc and I have 3 DoT's on the target at all times, similarly to stam. Yet my implosion rarely contributes a significant am9unt to my DPS.

Which Dots? Also are you using a lighting staff?

Implosion only proc's off of Shock or physical damage. So for Liquid Lightning that is once every second, but unless you are running a lighting staff then none of the Dots from Destro staff will proc it. Curse only proc's once in 3.5 seconds.

Endless Hail proc's every 0.5 seconds, Caltrops every second, Trap Beast every 2 seconds or so. Hurricane every second, but requires you to be within at least 9m at largest area.

So for Ranged physical you could get at least 3 DoT ticks a second, and 10 every 3.5 seconds. Moving to melee and that is 13 every 3.5 seconds.

Where if you are not running a lighting staff your talking 1 Dot tick a second, and 4 every 3.5 seconds. Using a lighting staff brings you up to at least 2 per second, and 7 every 3.5 seconds. Moving to melee and that is 10 every 3.5 seconds.

So Implosion should definitely benefit Stamina more, although how much more I'm not sure.

Note that I said similarly to stam sorc. I run Boundless Storm, liquid lightning and Elemental blockade. Plus I heavy attack with a lightning staff which counts as a dot that ticks every.6 seconds. This means that I have 24 DoT ticks every 6 seconds or 4 DoT tivks per second. My implosion proc chance is thus higher than yours. Yet it still sucks.
Caltrops I never count because they can be overwritten by others.

Toc de Malsvi · July 2016

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

3. Here is how the breakdown of classes goes for stam. StamNB shares first place with StamDK, but slightly aheadifferent in terms of single target. Stam sorc has the highest AoE damage.

I agree with this as far as overall stamina, as far as ranged stamina builds though DK in no way compares to Sorc. I believe you are wrong about the 11% to heavy attacks.

hedna123b14_ESO · July 2016

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

3. Here is how the breakdown of classes goes for stam. StamNB shares first place with StamDK, but slightly aheadifferent in terms of single target. Stam sorc has the highest AoE damage.

I agree with this as far as overall stamina, as far as ranged stamina builds though DK in no way compares to Sorc. I believe you are wrong about the 11% to heavy attacks.

For pure ranged it would be StamNB>Stam Sorc>Stamplar>Stam DK
Also I am not wrong as I test all of the things I post about online...Molten Armaments on DK's used to affect medium weaves until they took it away. The gave Bound Armaments the same treatment. I attached a video below that demonstartes that bound armaments do not buff medium weave damage. In the video you can see that I first apply the full hawk eye damage buff and then proceed to Focused Aim/Medium Weave. The damage difference in this case is way smaller than 11% and is due to the increase to the max stam pool.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddH8Pzh2R2U

Anti_Virus · July 2016

cpuScientist wrote: »

GREAT discussion guys. I am taking notes lol. I have always wanted to try the bow bow build. And was excited to see the VDSA bow getting scaled. Cannot wait to get in and test some things out on my Stam Sorc Orc. Hopefully I can get competitive DPS to be able to pull out the bow bow.

Actually I believe that vDSA bow>vMSA bow

The MSA bow my add WD but thats about it. DSA adds max stamina which helps with dmg and adds a huge 300+ WD to a target thats poisoned.

And archer build would be like this:
(PVP)
5 piece marksmen
5 piece hawk eye and 1 vDSA bow and 1 vDSA 2h sword both sharpened

1st bar-
If NB:
1. Lethal arrow.
2. Evil hunter.
3. Relentless focus.
4.Shadowy Disguise
5.. Poison injection

If Sorc:
1. Lethal arrow.
2. Evil hunter.
3. Bound armor.
5. Hurricane.
6. Poison injection.

If DK:
1. Lethal arrow
2. Evil hunter
3. Molten Armorments
4. Reflective scales
5. Poison injection

If Templar:
1. Lethal arrow
2. Evil hunter
3. Binding javelin
4. Cleaning ritual
5. Poison injection
Second bar is customisable but you would slot shuffle rally vigor and maybe trap beast.

(PVE)
5 piece hawk eye
5 piece archers mind
1 vDSA(main hand)and 1vMSA(off hand)bow both sharpened

As above for each class you would replace lethal arrow with focused aim. and use WD pots since self healing isnt really an issue in PVE

[Edited to fix Paragraph errors]

hedna123b14_ESO · July 2016

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

cpuScientist wrote: »

GREAT discussion guys. I am taking notes lol. I have always wanted to try the bow bow build. And was excited to see the VDSA bow getting scaled. Cannot wait to get in and test some things out on my Stam Sorc Orc. Hopefully I can get competitive DPS to be able to pull out the bow bow.

Actually I believe that vDSA bow>vMSA bow

The MSA bow my add WD but thats about it. DSA adds max stamina which helps with dmg and adds a huge 300+ WD to a target thats poisoned.

And archer build would be like this:
(PVP)
5 piece marksmen
5 piece hawk eye and 1 vDSA bow and 1 vDSA 2h sword both sharpened

1st bar-
If NB:
1. Lethal arrow.
2. Evil hunter.
3. Relentless focus.
4.Shadowy Disguise
5.. Poison injection

If Sorc:
1. Lethal arrow.
2. Evil hunter.
3. Bound armor.
5. Hurricane.
6. Poison injection.

If DK:
1. Lethal arrow
2. Evil hunter
3. Molten Armorments
4. Reflective scales
5. Poison injection

If Templar:
1. Lethal arrow
2. Evil hunter
3. Binding javelin
4. Cleaning ritual
5. Poison injection
Second bar is customisable but you would slot shuffle rally vigor and maybe trap beast.

(PVE)
5 piece hawk eye
5 piece archers mind
1 vDSA(main hand)and 1vMSA(off hand)bow both sharpened

As above for each class you would replace lethal arrow with focused aim. and use WD pots since self healing isnt really an issue in PVE

[Edited to fix Paragraph errors]

VDSA bow is unfortunately not nearly as good as the vMA Bow.
VMA bow effectively doubles the damage of Endless Hail. On single target fights endless hail does around 10-15% dps, so the bow adds around 5-7.5% damage increase. In addition it provides 189 weapon damage which becomes 283 weapon damage after buffs (+ or - 5).

VDSA bow offers 301 weapon damage only against targets affect by poison injection, meaning it is only good in single Target fights. 301 weapon damage averages 451 weapon damage. Additionally it provides stamina, which after buffs is equivalent to 120 weapon damage with warhorn up.451 + 120 = 571. 571 - 283 = 291 weapon damage.

At this point you have to make a decision is 291 weapon damage better than 5-7.5 % dps? Of course not, 291 weapon damage is around 3.5 to 3.8% dps increase. In AoE fights vMA bow wins by a giant margin.

The only chance we have is that they will buff traits.

Anti_Virus · July 2016

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

cpuScientist wrote: »

GREAT discussion guys. I am taking notes lol. I have always wanted to try the bow bow build. And was excited to see the VDSA bow getting scaled. Cannot wait to get in and test some things out on my Stam Sorc Orc. Hopefully I can get competitive DPS to be able to pull out the bow bow.

Actually I believe that vDSA bow>vMSA bow

The MSA bow my add WD but thats about it. DSA adds max stamina which helps with dmg and adds a huge 300+ WD to a target thats poisoned.

And archer build would be like this:
(PVP)
5 piece marksmen
5 piece hawk eye and 1 vDSA bow and 1 vDSA 2h sword both sharpened

1st bar-
If NB:
1. Lethal arrow.
2. Evil hunter.
3. Relentless focus.
4.Shadowy Disguise
5.. Poison injection

If Sorc:
1. Lethal arrow.
2. Evil hunter.
3. Bound armor.
5. Hurricane.
6. Poison injection.

If DK:
1. Lethal arrow
2. Evil hunter
3. Molten Armorments
4. Reflective scales
5. Poison injection

If Templar:
1. Lethal arrow
2. Evil hunter
3. Binding javelin
4. Cleaning ritual
5. Poison injection
Second bar is customisable but you would slot shuffle rally vigor and maybe trap beast.

(PVE)
5 piece hawk eye
5 piece archers mind
1 vDSA(main hand)and 1vMSA(off hand)bow both sharpened

As above for each class you would replace lethal arrow with focused aim. and use WD pots since self healing isnt really an issue in PVE

[Edited to fix Paragraph errors]

VDSA bow is unfortunately not nearly as good as the vMA Bow.
VMA bow effectively doubles the damage of Endless Hail. On single target fights endless hail does around 10-15% dps, so the bow adds around 5-7.5% damage increase. In addition it provides 189 weapon damage which becomes 283 weapon damage after buffs (+ or - 5).

VDSA bow offers 301 weapon damage only against targets affect by poison injection, meaning it is only good in single Target fights. 301 weapon damage averages 451 weapon damage. Additionally it provides stamina, which after buffs is equivalent to 120 weapon damage with warhorn up.451 + 120 = 571. 571 - 283 = 291 weapon damage.

At this point you have to make a decision is 291 weapon damage better than 5-7.5 % dps? Of course not, 291 weapon damage is around 3.5 to 3.8% dps increase. In AoE fights vMA bow wins by a giant margin.

The only chance we have is that they will buff traits.

I stand corrected. However the vMSA bows volley enchant is very situational(imo). In Solo PVE its not useful against CC immune mobs and in PVP it's useful at all.

In AoE fights like trials and vet dungeons vMSA bow>vDSA bow

But in solo PVE and PVP its vDSA bow>vMSA bow

hedna123b14_ESO · July 2016

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

cpuScientist wrote: »

GREAT discussion guys. I am taking notes lol. I have always wanted to try the bow bow build. And was excited to see the VDSA bow getting scaled. Cannot wait to get in and test some things out on my Stam Sorc Orc. Hopefully I can get competitive DPS to be able to pull out the bow bow.

Actually I believe that vDSA bow>vMSA bow

The MSA bow my add WD but thats about it. DSA adds max stamina which helps with dmg and adds a huge 300+ WD to a target thats poisoned.

And archer build would be like this:
(PVP)
5 piece marksmen
5 piece hawk eye and 1 vDSA bow and 1 vDSA 2h sword both sharpened

1st bar-
If NB:
1. Lethal arrow.
2. Evil hunter.
3. Relentless focus.
4.Shadowy Disguise
5.. Poison injection

If Sorc:
1. Lethal arrow.
2. Evil hunter.
3. Bound armor.
5. Hurricane.
6. Poison injection.

If DK:
1. Lethal arrow
2. Evil hunter
3. Molten Armorments
4. Reflective scales
5. Poison injection

If Templar:
1. Lethal arrow
2. Evil hunter
3. Binding javelin
4. Cleaning ritual
5. Poison injection
Second bar is customisable but you would slot shuffle rally vigor and maybe trap beast.

(PVE)
5 piece hawk eye
5 piece archers mind
1 vDSA(main hand)and 1vMSA(off hand)bow both sharpened

As above for each class you would replace lethal arrow with focused aim. and use WD pots since self healing isnt really an issue in PVE

[Edited to fix Paragraph errors]

VDSA bow is unfortunately not nearly as good as the vMA Bow.
VMA bow effectively doubles the damage of Endless Hail. On single target fights endless hail does around 10-15% dps, so the bow adds around 5-7.5% damage increase. In addition it provides 189 weapon damage which becomes 283 weapon damage after buffs (+ or - 5).

VDSA bow offers 301 weapon damage only against targets affect by poison injection, meaning it is only good in single Target fights. 301 weapon damage averages 451 weapon damage. Additionally it provides stamina, which after buffs is equivalent to 120 weapon damage with warhorn up.451 + 120 = 571. 571 - 283 = 291 weapon damage.

At this point you have to make a decision is 291 weapon damage better than 5-7.5 % dps? Of course not, 291 weapon damage is around 3.5 to 3.8% dps increase. In AoE fights vMA bow wins by a giant margin.

The only chance we have is that they will buff traits.

I stand corrected. However the vMSA bows volley enchant is very situational(imo). In Solo PVE its not useful against CC immune mobs and in PVP it's useful at all.

In AoE fights like trials and vet dungeons vMSA bow>vDSA bow

But in solo PVE and PVP its vDSA bow>vMSA bow

I think you've missed my point. Even in solo PvE vMA bow is currently winning, because Hail is 10-15% of my damage. In AoE fights that percentage is even higher. Basically the buff from vMA is so strong that using vDSA bow over it is a guaranteed loss in solo PvE and group PvE. PvP is a different story, with the high mobility that is necessary in PvP, vDSA bow will undoubtedly be king.