End Class Discrimination

ContraTempo

As I have watched the many threads about which class is OP and what skill line has been ruined it occurred to me that much of that could be eliminated by getting rid of classes. Choose any 3 skill lines you like to be "active".

• Change your mind? Make one of those lines inactive and make a new one active.
• You could swap out skill lines when you go from PVE to PVP.
• You could be a healer in one run, DPS in the next.
• Even swap skill line DURING a dungeon run, just not during combat.
  • Your PUG gets a tank who tries to do DPS instead? Swap your skills around so you tank and let him DPS.
  • Healer drops out? One of the remaining characters swaps out skills to take the healer role.
• Always wanted to try hybrid builds but don't want to commit to them? Swap them out as you like. Maybe 4 hybrids CAN take down that big boss.
• Experiment with mixes of skill lines. Think the "assassination" skill line is the most powerful thing around? Activate it, learn it, and use it. No reason you can't keep your Draconic Power skill line too.

IMO the titles Dragonknight, Templar, Sorcerer, and Nightblade should be titles you earn from completing certain (difficult) quest lines.

What we have now is NOT "play as you like". This would get us a lot closer.

Thoughts?

Woeler

Everyone running around with one and the same build. Yes lovely.

In all seriousness, no, please not.

ContraTempo

Woeler wrote: »

Everyone running around with one and the same build. Yes lovely.

In all seriousness, no, please not.

Wow, is that all you got from that? Given the freedom to make any mix you like everyone would make identical builds? If so, why doesn't everyone play the exact same class and build now?

sadownik

ContraTempo wrote: »

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Woeler wrote: »

Everyone running around with one and the same build. Yes lovely.

In all seriousness, no, please not.

Wow, is that all you got from that? Given the freedom to make any mix you like everyone would make identical builds? If so, why doesn't everyone play the exact same class and build now?

I would say there are very few builds already - and the fact that someone uses this set because s/he cant get that set, or uses 1 different skill - its not a different build.

DocFrost72

sadownik wrote: »

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ContraTempo wrote: »

Woeler wrote: »

Everyone running around with one and the same build. Yes lovely.

In all seriousness, no, please not.

Wow, is that all you got from that? Given the freedom to make any mix you like everyone would make identical builds? If so, why doesn't everyone play the exact same class and build now?

I would say there are very few builds already - and the fact that someone uses this set because s/he cant get that set, or uses 1 different skill - its not a different build.

I dunno, since all 4 classes make good everythings if specced right, I think we'd see more diversity than less.

Perfect example is access to major armor buffs. Some builds might light the major speed buff sorcs get to move around the battlefield and taunt, or the damage shield DKs get with theirs worth 10% of their health for extra survivability, and some may like the use of any shadow skill to get armor buffed.

I think the argument that there would be "just one build" MIGHT apply to dps...where there already is one build. (Bow for endless and inject, dw for flurry comes to mind...)

Woeler

ContraTempo wrote: »

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Woeler wrote: »

Everyone running around with one and the same build. Yes lovely.

In all seriousness, no, please not.

Wow, is that all you got from that? Given the freedom to make any mix you like everyone would make identical builds? If so, why doesn't everyone play the exact same class and build now?

Because dpswise every class can do more or less the same at the moment, giving at least people a choice of class and a little variation. What you will create is a raid with a tank, a healer and 10 FOTM DD's. And to that I say no thanks.

Miszou

Fallen Earth had a classless system, and it didn't lead to one "best" build.

Sure, people would (obviously) gravitate towards their favored weapon type (pistols, rifles or melee), and choose support lines to complement that, but there was still a great deal of variety in builds.

Xjcon

Woeler wrote: »

Everyone running around with one and the same build. Yes lovely.

In all seriousness, no, please not.

Isn't that exactly how it is now? The majority of high end dps is trying to get their FOTM dps build setup before the next patch.

ContraTempo

Also, stop thinking of builds as static. That's what we have now. Think of changing your build to fit the situation, role, or content. Even ONE character is not going to have just one build. They will change to adapt to circumstances.

Woeler

Xjcon wrote: »

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Woeler wrote: »

Everyone running around with one and the same build. Yes lovely.

In all seriousness, no, please not.

Isn't that exactly how it is now? The majority of high end dps is trying to get their FOTM dps build setup before the next patch.

You see any nr1 spots with a tank a healer and 10 stam-dk's?

newtinmpls

Yes open skill lines, but NO to swapping without a formal respec.

ContraTempo

newtinmpls wrote: »

Yes open skill lines, but NO to swapping without a formal respec.

Why? Why would that be a problem?

One big complaint I see now is the difficulty of taking the same character in PVE and PVP. Plus the issues I mentioned with PUGs.

dodgehopper_ESO

Miszou wrote: »

Fallen Earth had a classless system, and it didn't lead to one "best" build.

Sure, people would (obviously) gravitate towards their favored weapon type (pistols, rifles or melee), and choose support lines to complement that, but there was still a great deal of variety in builds.

I think some people are so accustomed to having classes in MMO's, they don't even know what a classless game is like. I'm familiar with some classless games, that rely on skill and they are balanced. This whole notion that there would be only cookie cutter builds is preposterous, particularly if the devs are dedicated to proper balance.

sadownik

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

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Miszou wrote: »

Fallen Earth had a classless system, and it didn't lead to one "best" build.

Sure, people would (obviously) gravitate towards their favored weapon type (pistols, rifles or melee), and choose support lines to complement that, but there was still a great deal of variety in builds.

I think some people are so accustomed to having classes in MMO's, they don't even know what a classless game is like. I'm familiar with some classless games, that rely on skill and they are balanced. This whole notion that there would be only cookie cutter builds is preposterous, particularly if the devs are dedicated to proper balance.

Name those please? Fallen Earth was definitely not the one, so isnt one Seceret Wars. Any others you tried?

Destruent

ContraTempo wrote: »

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newtinmpls wrote: »

Yes open skill lines, but NO to swapping without a formal respec.

Why? Why would that be a problem?

One big complaint I see now is the difficulty of taking the same character in PVE and PVP. Plus the issues I mentioned with PUGs.

Ît's definetely not difficult. I do all 3 roles on my templar in pve and pvp, no problemo. can do the same on DK and NB in PvE. This system would only provide the following: Less variety and more OP builds.

- Healers on warhorn duty? nomore needed, bc tank can provide ~100% WH uptime
- You don't know which ult for dps? Oh wait, just take good old Banner and combine it with the skills of your choice
- ever read complaining about radiant destruction? Combine it with banner to boost its dmg by 20%

There some more examples like this....believe me, noone wants this.

Lumenn

I could see this working but wondering if you're including attribute in the reset, or would all abilities scale off your highest one? This would allow more freedom among the players and possibly alleviate SOME of the balancing headaches for ZOS. (there will be pleas for more stamina morphs(something I agree with) if skills don't scale to your highest attribute. Not sure if I like the idea of changing willy-nilly drop of a hat though....

DocFrost72

I'm with you, OP. I'd much rather see a less rigid class system or even complete breakdown of it entirely. I was skeptical of One Tamriel until I sat and thought of it but...it will be better good than bad. I think the change you're suggesting is along the same lines, more good than bad.

I mean, we already have people chasing FOTM builds, and those people will always do so. They're not an issue really.

We already have people running purely in their builds, and there is no penalty to them staying that way, so that is fine.

The mixing might really bring out more, not less, diversity. Plus if everyone has access to a wider variety of trees, it would be really cool to see what combos people could make. Sorcs with a spammable dps finally, more magicka classes with pets? Or how about a badass fire spewing demon (combo of dragonknight and Nightblade move sets).

Kinda exciting prospect, really. Don't know if I agree with tree change on the fly, but for sure more accessible trees!

ContraTempo

Destruent wrote: »

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ContraTempo wrote: »

newtinmpls wrote: »

Yes open skill lines, but NO to swapping without a formal respec.

Why? Why would that be a problem?

One big complaint I see now is the difficulty of taking the same character in PVE and PVP. Plus the issues I mentioned with PUGs.

Ît's definetely not difficult. I do all 3 roles on my templar in pve and pvp, no problemo. can do the same on DK and NB in PvE. This system would only provide the following: Less variety and more OP builds.

- Healers on warhorn duty? nomore needed, bc tank can provide ~100% WH uptime
- You don't know which ult for dps? Oh wait, just take good old Banner and combine it with the skills of your choice
- ever read complaining about radiant destruction? Combine it with banner to boost its dmg by 20%

There some more examples like this....believe me, noone wants this.

No doubt there would be some balancing of individual skills to be done, but even while waiting for adjustment those same options would be available to everyone, so we would never have one class wiping all the others, or one class that was useless. Also, adapting AFTER the re-balance would be easier since you could change skill lines if one of yours got nuked.

DarkMatter909

This is an excellent idea. I am certainly all for something like this as the combinations could be quite entertaining and fun. It would be an interesting way to rejuvenate the way the same skills are used for the same builds. Mixing up skill trees would open up the game to being better "balanced" if everyone can access whatever skills they want.

Apocalypse1981

No, i like the concept of classes, its more old school and i personally enjoy it a lot.
I think character customization and choices matter.

Just roll another char, it takes less than a month to get to 50

Avalon

I've been asking for this since game came out on PC, but gave up for a while because I always got the 'it would lead to cookie cutter builds' type response. So, heck yeah, drop classes, just open up all the lines, pick 3, go from there.

ContraTempo

I'll add this: So long as we have classes and fixed skill lines, balance is not possible. Consider what all has to be balanced:

• DK vs NB vs Sorc vs Templar
• Healer vs Tank vs DPS
• Burst vs Sustain
• Survivability vs DPS
• PVE vs PVP
• 1v1 vs 1vX vs Xv1 vs XvX

And under the current system they try to balance all this at the same time.

How can you have a healer who can also DPS in PVE, and hold their own against the top burst build in 1v1 PVP?
Roles tell us that a character is a specialist, very strong in one area and weak in another. When you run that dungeon you want a healing specialist, you want a tank specialist, you want DPS specialists. But then you take those same characters to Cyro to run solo and you have a problem.

ZOS will never achieve balance with the classes because there are too many competing considerations. We will forever be seeing more nerfs, more buffs, more builds that use to work but are now trash.

Azoryl

The OP's post is how the game was going to be designed... however, ZoS felt they needed classes to stop people from picking specific skills to OP in an area...

Imagine a Ardent Flame, Assassination, Storm Caller...

Runs

I think this is the way it should have been from the beginning.

First and foremost because this is an Elder Scrolls game, or supposed to be one rather. And while TES have had classes in the past, your choice on class was trumped by what skills you decided to actually use. You could have chosen Warrior at the start, but instead found out you liked summoning and leveled those skills.

But...

The problem with doing that now though is it is too big a change. Skills would need to be completely overhauled, as would PVE difficulty. I mean just think of some of the best set ups you can right now picking any 3 out of all of the class skill lines. I can see "God Mode" if they were all left as are.

Clerics1985

Van_0S

DocFrost72 wrote: »

One Tamriel

Could someone give me link about this "One Tamriel"?

Shadesofkin

You put a lot of thought into that, so I don't want to be rude, but I dislike the idea.

Kalifas

So glad some people agree that alot of things would improve with a more open system.

Kalifa's ClassCrafting Concept

Solariken

Woeler wrote: »

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ContraTempo wrote: »

Woeler wrote: »

Everyone running around with one and the same build. Yes lovely.

In all seriousness, no, please not.

Wow, is that all you got from that? Given the freedom to make any mix you like everyone would make identical builds? If so, why doesn't everyone play the exact same class and build now?

Because dpswise every class can do more or less the same at the moment, giving at least people a choice of class and a little variation. What you will create is a raid with a tank, a healer and 10 FOTM DD's. And to that I say no thanks.

This is clearly false and you are just mindlessly nay-saying. A min/maxed group needs unique tools from across multiple class, guild, and weapon lines, and one person's build can only bring a fraction of what is needed. For example, you need Minor Brutality and Sorcery, Minor Intellect and Savagery, etc. Also, would it make sense for more than one person to run things like Caltrops? Nope.

A serious PvE or PvP group would never organize themselves the way you say. Opening the 12 class trees to everyone would be great for the game and actually increase diversity and balance.

Rohamad_Ali

I've seen many games use a free all skill template for progression instead of classes . It can work and could solve a lot of balance issues . I don't think ZOS has any plans on anymore major changes towards character builds . Removing vet levels and faction restrictions was last on their original list of complaints .

Solariken

Azoryl wrote: »

The OP's post is how the game was going to be designed... however, ZoS felt they needed classes to stop people from picking specific skills to OP in an area...

Imagine a Ardent Flame, Assassination, Storm Caller...

I very highly doubt that was their reasoning. I can almost guarantee they did it solely to induce artificial replayability due to limited content available at launch. Same with the ridiculously stupid Cadwell's Silver/Gold time warp.