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End Class Discrimination
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Mavor✭✭✭Personally, the one thing that's always felt off to me (and very non-Elder Scrolls) is the classes. Id love to see the skill lines opened up for a pure classless system or removed entirely and re-introduced as spells or such. The rigidity of classes just feels weird in an ES game - specially with how unorthodox the classes are here in ESO.3 -
Averya_Teira✭✭✭✭✭ContraTempo wrote: »Everyone running around with one and the same build. Yes lovely.
In all seriousness, no, please not.
Wow, is that all you got from that? Given the freedom to make any mix you like everyone would make identical builds? If so, why doesn't everyone play the exact same class and build now?
I would say there are very few builds already - and the fact that someone uses this set because s/he cant get that set, or uses 1 different skill - its not a different build.
There are actually a lot of builds if you consider PvE builds PvP builds VMA builds etc. Some classes have less than others, but still.1 -
Genomic✭✭✭✭✭If they didn't have to balance builds due to PvP (which will only get far worse with small-scale PvP) then different builds would be less of an issue. People would just play with whatever they found most fun. PvP and PvE specs should be separate for this reason.0 -
xblackroxe✭✭✭✭✭
You see any nr1 spots with a tank a healer and 10 stam-dk's?
No because you need at least 1 NB for crit and some ranged guys to not have too much stackin like 1st boss vmol or decoys for manti.
Member of HODOR
Dro-m'Athra Destroyer1 -
ContraTempo✭✭✭✭The OP's post is how the game was going to be designed... however, ZoS felt they needed classes to stop people from picking specific skills to OP in an area...
Imagine a Ardent Flame, Assassination, Storm Caller...
Which was a cop out instead of fixing OP skill lines.
So now we are left with this endless series of nerfs and buffs where they try to fix PVP but that breaks PVE. Or the try to balance out Sorcs but make them the weakest class. Or they do something about the PVE they broke but that breaks PVP again.
Would they have to rework some of the skill lines if they did this? Yes, probably so. But not endlessly like they do now. Partly because not every skill line needs to completely balance every other skill line, so long as the 3 you are using now have decent counters for the 3 the other guy is using (if PVP) or are good for the role you are doing (if PVE). I know we are not use to thinking this way because every Class DOES have to balance every other class, because they are rigid so what you choose is what you are stuck with in every situation. So in a fairly short amount of time we should be able to get to stable skill lines where the powers in any one have good counters in at least two of the others.
Another benefit is that if there is a skill line from which you want a particular skill but that you will only use occasionally, you can have that if you are willing to put in the time to level that line. It will never be worth choosing a class just to get access to this one skill.
So, for example, if I want to use Streak while exploring, I can do that without having to be a Sorc.ContraTempo
Carpe DM
Seize the Dungeon Master2 -
kargen27✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ContraTempo wrote: »I'll add this: So long as we have classes and fixed skill lines, balance is not possible. Consider what all has to be balanced:- DK vs NB vs Sorc vs Templar
- Healer vs Tank vs DPS
- Burst vs Sustain
- Survivability vs DPS
- PVE vs PVP
- 1v1 vs 1vX vs Xv1 vs XvX
How can you have a healer who can also DPS in PVE, and hold their own against the top burst build in 1v1 PVP?
Roles tell us that a character is a specialist, very strong in one area and weak in another. When you run that dungeon you want a healing specialist, you want a tank specialist, you want DPS specialists. But then you take those same characters to Cyro to run solo and you have a problem.
ZOS will never achieve balance with the classes because there are too many competing considerations. We will forever be seeing more nerfs, more buffs, more builds that use to work but are now trash.
I have a healer that can DPS in PVE and is very survivable in PVP. I carry three complete sets of armor with me and an assortment of monster helms/shoulders I can equip depending on the situation. I also know how to tweak my CP if just the armor changes don't bring enough to the fight. That being said I wouldn't mind being able to pick which skill lines I want to use. I don't think it should be on the fly though. I would prefer if this became reality that it work like respecing your attribute points.and then the parrot said, "must be the water mines green too."1 -
ContraTempo✭✭✭✭ContraTempo wrote: »I'll add this: So long as we have classes and fixed skill lines, balance is not possible. Consider what all has to be balanced:
- DK vs NB vs Sorc vs Templar
- Healer vs Tank vs DPS
- Burst vs Sustain
- Survivability vs DPS
- PVE vs PVP
- 1v1 vs 1vX vs Xv1 vs XvX
How can you have a healer who can also DPS in PVE, and hold their own against the top burst build in 1v1 PVP?
Roles tell us that a character is a specialist, very strong in one area and weak in another. When you run that dungeon you want a healing specialist, you want a tank specialist, you want DPS specialists. But then you take those same characters to Cyro to run solo and you have a problem.
ZOS will never achieve balance with the classes because there are too many competing considerations. We will forever be seeing more nerfs, more buffs, more builds that use to work but are now trash.
I have a healer that can DPS in PVE and is very survivable in PVP. I carry three complete sets of armor with me and an assortment of monster helms/shoulders I can equip depending on the situation. I also know how to tweak my CP if just the armor changes don't bring enough to the fight. That being said I wouldn't mind being able to pick which skill lines I want to use. I don't think it should be on the fly though. I would prefer if this became reality that it work like respecing your attribute points.
Granted, some people are successful with this as you say. But this is a very common complaint so you know many people can't or don't make it work. And to some degree that may depend on class -- which gets us back to why no classes.
I see some people saying "not on the fly" but I have yet to see a real reason, a real problem it creates, other than that it is not what we are use to. I think it's important because it would be what lets people easily take that character from PVE to PVP to VMa, to deal with bad PUGs, and to experiment with different builds. I think the limit should be that you can't switch during combat because if you could that would be like having access to more than 3 skill lines in the same combat. But if you are running a dungeon and you need to trade roles with your group's healer (either because he doesn't know how to be a healer or he just drops out), you can do that between combats. This eliminates a lot of angst and wasted time.ContraTempo
Carpe DM
Seize the Dungeon Master1 -
HuawaSepp✭✭✭More balance for less individuality?
If you wanna play with good balance a casino is the place of your choice.
But I would appreciate endless diversity, so much diversity that you could never find the best way to do your job.PTS-EU0 -
tennant94✭✭✭It wouldn't work in this game. Defiantly wouldn't work for pvp. Everyone would use stamina builds, nb assassination skill line, nb shadow skill line and the dks earthen heart for major mending or the Templars major mending skill line. Basically everyone would be stam blades but have access to major mending Lol.0
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Korozenn✭✭✭✭There shall never be an end to class discrimination.
Nightblade Supremacy! Everyone shall become Nightblades for the rest of time.
MAKE TAMRIEL GREAT AGAIN!
...k, seriously, tho.
I don't agree. This idea looks good on paper, but with the current state of Classes in the game, everyone would flock to the "best" skill lines of the lot and stick to those. That would make grouping up with people harder as then they'd be looking for a certain "type" of healer, and just because someone is a healer, it wouldn't mean they actually specialize in it, too...
I don't know. I know how players in this game will make something that should be fun, especially for PvE, suddenly a worrysome chore to utilize for PvP and PvE raids/future PvP duels. We want to minimize that kind of impact such a system would introduce into the game, really, and I just think the Class-based system streamlines things so that we don't have to go through some means of "unlcoking" classes or have a situation where people feel overwhelmed by the brevity of choices they have with character customization.]Edited by Korozenn on June 25, 2016 1:21AM1 -
STEVIL✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭@ContraTempo
Right now each class is a package with 15 skills, 3 ults, 36 morphs and 13-20ish passives many of whom synergize eith the other.
That whole package taken together is a thing thay can see a lot of different dynamic strengths and weaknesses dedigned in to make balance between classes.
If you go to independent skill lines, then each "package" you hzve to balance against the others is a lot smaller. That cannot help but lead to far more similarity and sameness in thrir rededign for the independent use.
Example, right now templars can be set eithout certain aggressive buffs but to have better healing. Not really able to design thst into independent skills bc people would take the stronger heal line and some other strong dps line etc.
More diverse designs can come when larger packages have built in pro and con than when your balance focus is reduced to smaller packages.Proudly skooma free while talks-when-drunk is in mandatory public housing.
YFMV Your Fun May Vary.
First Law of Nerf-o-Dynamics
"The good way I used to get good kills *with good skill* was good but the way others kill me now is bad."1 -
Korozenn✭✭✭✭@ContraTempo
Right now each class is a package with 15 skills, 3 ults, 36 morphs and 13-20ish passives many of whom synergize eith the other.
That whole package taken together is a thing thay can see a lot of different dynamic strengths and weaknesses dedigned in to make balance between classes.
If you go to independent skill lines, then each "package" you hzve to balance against the others is a lot smaller. That cannot help but lead to far more similarity and sameness in thrir rededign for the independent use.
Example, right now templars can be set eithout certain aggressive buffs but to have better healing. Not really able to design thst into independent skills bc people would take the stronger heal line and some other strong dps line etc.
More diverse designs can come when larger packages have built in pro and con than when your balance focus is reduced to smaller packages.
Yup. I think if people are looking for diversity with skill builds, they should look forward to fine-tuning their character(s) with the Champion Point system as it actually allows for a large variety of builds to be viable in end-game and is far more flexible than the game used to be regarding Veteran Ranks.
In the distant future, we will receive Spellcrafting; by the looks of it, it will be a very intrinsic system implemented that will allow for even more diverse builds to come out of the woodwork.
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TX12001rwb17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
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If people really were going to do that they would of done it by now, yet I still see Nightblades and Templers and Sorcerers and Dragonknights, why would people choose to be stamina sorcerers when they could instead be Stamina Dragonknights? If anything to balance it out ZoS needs to do this......Everyone running around with one and the same build. Yes lovely.
In all seriousness, no, please not.
Make it so in Cyrodiil you have to wear your alliances official uniform which is it's own boring set otherwise you don't get any AP, that would sort out set balancing and it would be more realistic as Armies have uniforms yet in ESO we don't for some reason.
Edited by TX12001rwb17_ESO on June 25, 2016 5:15AM0 -
ContraTempo✭✭✭✭@ContraTempo
Right now each class is a package with 15 skills, 3 ults, 36 morphs and 13-20ish passives many of whom synergize eith the other.
That whole package taken together is a thing thay can see a lot of different dynamic strengths and weaknesses dedigned in to make balance between classes.
If you go to independent skill lines, then each "package" you hzve to balance against the others is a lot smaller. That cannot help but lead to far more similarity and sameness in thrir rededign for the independent use.
Example, right now templars can be set eithout certain aggressive buffs but to have better healing. Not really able to design thst into independent skills bc people would take the stronger heal line and some other strong dps line etc.
More diverse designs can come when larger packages have built in pro and con than when your balance focus is reduced to smaller packages.
Making the skill lines all very similar with different names would be the cheesiest way to do it and I agree that would blow. But if instead they make sure there are at least a couple of other skill lines with good counters to any strong skill, that would have people (at least the successful ones) creating thoughtful builds, and not always spamming their one strongest skill because everyone knows and has the counter for that.
It also would not be a disaster to have a character with strong attacks AND good healing because anyone can have that. So we are not talking about one class that is deadly and unkillable, we are talking about skills anyone can have so that character will face many equally powerful opponents.
And if done right there really should not be one skill line that is more OP than all the others. That is lack of balance. Nerfing it some is one approach, but instead they could build effective counters into other skill lines as I discussed above.
Of course this could be done badly and it would have the issues you point out. But done well it would provide much more freedom and flexibility. As things stand now we are no less at the mercy of ZOS's vision and development skills.
ContraTempo
Carpe DM
Seize the Dungeon Master0 -
Destruent✭✭✭✭✭
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Lol....there are counters for all skills available and it's mostly nothing class specific. as i already said. This idea will kill build-diversity which is good atm and will get even better with the next patch.ContraTempo wrote: »Making the skill lines all very similar with different names would be the cheesiest way to do it and I agree that would blow. But if instead they make sure there are at least a couple of other skill lines with good counters to any strong skill, that would have people (at least the successful ones) creating thoughtful builds, and not always spamming their one strongest skill because everyone knows and has the counter for that.
Noobplar0