Min/Max why its a bane to ESO "IMO" and Racial Balance

hrothbern

SlayerTheDragon wrote: »

@Whatzituyah I agree with you completely. The day they fix the racials is the day this becomes a proper MMO.

If your Argonian has 35k magicka, my Breton will have 38 500 magicka. As long as this stands the game is BROKEN.

That 10% Magicka gives with a buffed 3200 Spell Damage roughly 5% more DPS and self-HPS

That 9% more Health of an Argonian gives a Templar Argonian build a 9% bigger Blazing Shield for bigger defense and a 9% higher DPS for Blazing Shield DPS.
I know very well that the Breton 5% is applicable to more kinds of abilities than the 9% of the only 1 Blazing Shield.
But I know ALSO very well how extremely strong, tough and resilient, high health Templar argonians can be in PVP !


The point I would like to make is that the variety of Racials enables an even wider variety of builds when good combinations of Race, class, sets and ability rotation are used.

I think you can only allow yourself a "strong" opinion on Racials, IF you know ALL niche builds that are made possible by the variety and sometimes SEEMINGLY "too" big differences of the Racials.

And simplifying the values of the Racials leads imo to a reduction of the variety of kinds of builds and roles that are viable.

And yes I think that Racials need a good tweak.
But not because this game is BROKEN.
But mainly because of the Stamina builds that were not there in their current shape and potential 2 years ago when the base structure was developed for the Racials and other changes of the game mechanics balance as a whole since begin last year.

EDIT:
So nothing BROKEN in the current Racials.
Only the risk that simple-minded strong opinions blow up the diversity we have !

xblackroxe

Whatzituyah wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

Whatzituyah wrote: »

Your right about this but when it comes to leaderboards it seems like it would be unfair. I think if we can't change it racial wise the leaderboard should account for the race and class some people don't have time for alts.

Edit to add that this thread just got to page two just now. If this thread dies all I ask is ZOS to consider these concerns.

rly....skill, gear etc >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>race

don't call your bad race if you can't make it on the leaderboards

Too be honest I haven't even tried Maelstrom Arena I was making assumptions.

See thats exactly the problem. People making some assumptions in their head and start arguing about stuff they actually have no idea about.

timidobserver

I really don't want to agree with this thread because I like races with meaningful differences, pros, and cons, but I do hate that you basically have to be an elf if you want to min/max magicka dps. Sure you can do fine with any race, but to reach your maximum potential as a magicka dps you need to be an elf. I do not want cosmetic races that are only different in appearance with slight meaningless mechanical differences like GW2, but I could go for a new race passive system that provides better options and flexibility.

SlayerTheDragon

Racials should exclude max Magicka, Stamina, and Health. Problem solved.

hrothbern

timidobserver wrote: »

I really don't want to agree with this thread because I like races with meaningful differences, pros, and cons, but I do hate that you basically have to be an elf if you want to min/max magicka dps. Sure you can do fine with any race, but to reach your maximum potential as a magicka dps you need to be an elf. I do not want cosmetic races that are only different in appearance with slight meaningless mechanical differences like GW2, but I could go for a new race passive system that provides better options and flexibility.

I think there is the biggest dilemma of Racials:

• If you make the total strenghtening effect too big, you always end up with less options and choices and for example an Elf for max Magicka DPS/HPS builds
• If you make the total strenghtening effect too small, Racial has become a costume for lore and appearance.

Perhaps adding negative effects to a Racial is a way to keep the strenghtening effect low enough, and get the total differentiating effect between Races big enough.

Those negative effects should ofc fit to the lore, like now with some Monsters
Game mechanics way to implement is higher damage and proc chance secondary effects
Vulnerabilty effects could be:

1. to Fire
2. to Frost
3. to Shock
4. to Poison
5. to Disease
6. to Magical damage
7. to Physical damage

Destruent

Most leaderboards are about groups and not single persons so it's impossible to divide into class/races.

SlayerTheDragon wrote: »

Racials should exclude max Magicka, Stamina, and Health. Problem solved.

8% more Crit (Khajit), 4% more elemental and 7% more fire-dmg have an higher impact compared to all stat-passives, so i dunno what this would solve at all.

Vangy

1. The best races and worst races have at best a difference of 5-10%.
2. Skill accounts for most of the huge DPS parses we see.

5-10% is paltry...... People keep making it out to be a big deal. If that 5% is SO important to you, get a race change or make a new toon. I mean ZOS has made it sooooo ez to get an alt to 50 with CP being shared.....

Now if your concern is that certain races are very unpopular due to below par racials, then im totally with you on that boat.

xblackroxe

timidobserver wrote: »

I really don't want to agree with this thread because I like races with meaningful differences, pros, and cons, but I do hate that you basically have to be an elf if you want to min/max magicka dps. Sure you can do fine with any race, but to reach your maximum potential as a magicka dps you need to be an elf. I do not want cosmetic races that are only different in appearance with slight meaningless mechanical differences like GW2, but I could go for a new race passive system that provides better options and flexibility.

But you would have to completely remove racials if you want to min/max and choose whatever race you want. Even if a race has like 0.5% damage increase compared to others you can't min/max without using this race. And there isn't that big of a disparity as people make it out to be. If you are bad you will still be bad with the perfect build and otherwise. Racials is just something bad people use to excuse being bad. If racials stop existing people will find other ways to do that till the game only is lightattacking and nothing else.

xblackroxe

EDIT: doublepost

Runefang

Too often balance is achieved in games today by making differences either cosmetic or so small as to be inconsequential.

I'd rather keep substantial differences that see different races play more uniquely.

Duiwel

Whatzituyah wrote: »

Duiwel wrote: »

That's funny OP because:

Oblivion:

Atlmer / High Elf

Argonian

Breton

Dunmer / Dark Elf

Imperial

Khajiit

Nord

Orc

Redguard

Wood Elf/Bosmer

Skyrim

Altmer /high Elf
Argonian
Breton

Dunmer/ Dark Elf

Imperial

Khajiit

Nord

Orc

Woord Elf/ Bosmer

Redguard

I said end game! The beginning is not a good comparison.


The whole point of this game was to be an MMORPG its not really the rpg part.

End game?

End game in all TES games the Altmer and Breton will ALWAYS be the best magicka race choice.
End game in all TES games the Redguard, Imperial, Dunmer will always be the best all round warrior choice.
End game in all TES games the Argonian and Khajiit will always have that "cool factor" but no real bonus that they benifit from.
Your point is pretty irrelevant mate, you WERE aware of these things if you chose a non min-maxing race that's on you.
It's only like 5k max dps difference @ max level anyway so I don't see why you are complaining it's negligible. You can't have your cake and eat it too... I am sure many of us who did pick a min-maxing race probably would have liked to be something else for that role but chose it for the very reason you are complaining.

Also with the 12 char slots now AND the fact that the level cap is 50 ( which can be obtained in virtually no time whatsoever ) I don't see any grounds for complaints because OP you can literally have your Argonian Magicka Templar AND you can have a Breton or Altmer Magplar...

You can have your Nord or Imperial Stamina Nightblade AND a Khajiit or Woodelf ect.

You can have your Orc DK AND you can make a Dunmer DK

You can have your Breton Sorc AND make an Altmer Sorc...

The point is there are 4 classes and 4 new char slots, grounds for this argument? None because of 4 new character slots.

Whatzituyah

xblackroxe wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

I really don't want to agree with this thread because I like races with meaningful differences, pros, and cons, but I do hate that you basically have to be an elf if you want to min/max magicka dps. Sure you can do fine with any race, but to reach your maximum potential as a magicka dps you need to be an elf. I do not want cosmetic races that are only different in appearance with slight meaningless mechanical differences like GW2, but I could go for a new race passive system that provides better options and flexibility.

But you would have to completely remove racials if you want to min/max and choose whatever race you want. Even if a race has like 0.5% damage increase compared to others you can't min/max without using this race. And there isn't that big of a disparity as people make it out to be. If you are bad you will still be bad with the perfect build and otherwise. Racials is just something bad people use to excuse being bad. If racials stop existing people will find other ways to do that till the game only is lightattacking and nothing else.

Its also something for other people think they are better than other races.

xblackroxe wrote: »

Whatzituyah wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

Whatzituyah wrote: »

Your right about this but when it comes to leaderboards it seems like it would be unfair. I think if we can't change it racial wise the leaderboard should account for the race and class some people don't have time for alts.

Edit to add that this thread just got to page two just now. If this thread dies all I ask is ZOS to consider these concerns.

rly....skill, gear etc >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>race

don't call your bad race if you can't make it on the leaderboards

Too be honest I haven't even tried Maelstrom Arena I was making assumptions.

See thats exactly the problem. People making some assumptions in their head and start arguing about stuff they actually have no idea about.

@xblackroxe Its also a double negative if I do it and complain I will be told L2P but if I don't I have nothing to talk about.

Duiwel wrote: »

Whatzituyah wrote: »

Duiwel wrote: »

That's funny OP because:

Oblivion:

Atlmer / High Elf

Argonian

Breton

Dunmer / Dark Elf

Imperial

Khajiit

Nord

Orc

Redguard

Wood Elf/Bosmer

Skyrim

Altmer /high Elf
Argonian
Breton

Dunmer/ Dark Elf

Imperial

Khajiit

Nord

Orc

Woord Elf/ Bosmer

Redguard

I said end game! The beginning is not a good comparison.


The whole point of this game was to be an MMORPG its not really the rpg part.

End game?

End game in all TES games the Altmer and Breton will ALWAYS be the best magicka race choice.
End game in all TES games the Redguard, Imperial, Dunmer will always be the best all round warrior choice.
End game in all TES games the Argonian and Khajiit will always have that "cool factor" but no real bonus that they benifit from.
Your point is pretty irrelevant mate, you WERE aware of these things if you chose a non min-maxing race that's on you.
It's only like 5k max dps difference @ max level anyway so I don't see why you are complaining it's negligible. You can't have your cake and eat it too... I am sure many of us who did pick a min-maxing race probably would have liked to be something else for that role but chose it for the very reason you are complaining.

Also with the 12 char slots now AND the fact that the level cap is 50 ( which can be obtained in virtually no time whatsoever ) I don't see any grounds for complaints because OP you can literally have your Argonian Magicka Templar AND you can have a Breton or Altmer Magplar...

You can have your Nord or Imperial Stamina Nightblade AND a Khajiit or Woodelf ect.

You can have your Orc DK AND you can make a Dunmer DK

You can have your Breton Sorc AND make an Altmer Sorc...

The point is there are 4 classes and 4 new char slots, grounds for this argument? None because of 4 new character slots.

@Duiwel Those character slots are also behind a pay wall if they make them free than theirs no grounds for argument... Oh wait they can't because of money! Also you missed Bosmer in that post but"missed the Wood Elf part." point taken about the races being less effective at something else. But theres one thing this game is more linear to customization why you ask? Well we have 4 classes like you said with skill lines with extras in guilds and stuff basically still doesn't know what it wants to be because Elder Scrolls was flexible. Elder Scrolls Online barely bends but not as flexible because its an MMO that includes the races I am not wrong in that regard. But I also realize this isn't a path that Elder Scrolls usually took to be multiplayer some sacrifices have to be made that means balancing the races.

Duiwel

Races were, will and can never be balanced it goes against the principal idea of TES franchise of "pick your race for what you want to do"

Secondly they were already butchered due to your reasoning, we HAD racial Ultimates and they were removed because of complaints like yours OP.

So in a way balance was already brought to the table... ( to the extent of what was possible )

There is actually a ton of customization... and that is actually only possible DUE to the racial passives...

I will just list 1 far fetched example - you CAN be a Stam Sorc tank if you want if you pick orc / Nord / Argonian / imperial so that just goes to show even the MOST unlikely choice and weirdest combination is still viable if you PLAN correctly.

I understand your frustration man I would have liked to not have 2 Altmer and 2 Redguards BUT it is what it is ...

The only thing I agree with you but it deviates from your topic ( regarding balance ) is the restriction we have between the classes...

IF You had access to ALL the class skills, passives then we would see some pretty interesting things HOWEVER unfortunately if you think people are complaining about balance now ( see this post even as reference, another is the different classes, another is the Champion Point system, another is that some players are richer and have better gear, the complaints go on and on) imagine the outcry then! (uncontrollable possibilities) the guys who understand skills and passives will make such godlike builds that the masses will quit entirely.

I think this is just one of those cases of deal with it.

You might get a new car and a year or 2 later your neighbour gets a better new car so now you are not the "best" anymore...

What are you gonna do? Deal with it, move on with your life. Work harder ect.

No one said you HAVE to buy the char slots but the options are there so if you WANT the min/maxing you know what to do.

you could always do what the rest of us did and that's delete characters for the min / maxing...

I deleted a Nord tank stamplar in April 2016 for a Stamblade
I deleted a Dunmer Sorc for a Magblade
I deleted an Argonian Templar for a Dunmer DK

All 3 those chars had 60 - 60 - 60 riding skills, they were chars I made in April 2014, had sentimental value ect.

There are people who have done this many more times over the coarse of this game's lifetime.

The choice is up to you, but there really is no sense in complaining mate.

here's why:

IF you have gear for your say Argonian NB all you need to do is bank that. Delete the char ( if you are not Max CP great ! ) getting the skills back to Morph IV will gain you some nice CP's! win-win

Now you have for example a Khajiit NB and you will never go sad again...

Oh btw? I am actually going to make an Argonian NB over a Khajiit NB this weekend. Why? Because I WANT to!
Also making a Nord.

There are 12 char slots in total 8 in the base game don't tell me you do not have at least 1 of the best race/ class combo's...

10 races, 4 classes that means:

Altmer - Sorc / Templar / Nightblade
Breton - Sorc / Templar
Dunmer DK / Nightblade / Sorc
Imperial DK / Templar / NB
Redguard Templar / NB / DK
Khajiit NB / Sorc / Templar
Bosmer NB / DK / Sorc / Templar
Nord DK / Templar
Orc DK / Templar / Sorc
Argonian DK / Templar / NB / Sorc

Those are your combo's

You are welcome to 12 of those choices which means you can even have 3 combo's of each class...

In other words OP :

Your "fun choice" or RP choice...
The Min/Max choice for Magicka
The Min/Max choice for Stamina

^ for every class...

Thus in conclusion no reason to complain serious.

LadyNalcarya

xblackroxe wrote: »

Whatzituyah wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

Whatzituyah wrote: »

Your right about this but when it comes to leaderboards it seems like it would be unfair. I think if we can't change it racial wise the leaderboard should account for the race and class some people don't have time for alts.

Edit to add that this thread just got to page two just now. If this thread dies all I ask is ZOS to consider these concerns.

rly....skill, gear etc >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>race

don't call your bad race if you can't make it on the leaderboards

Too be honest I haven't even tried Maelstrom Arena I was making assumptions.

See thats exactly the problem. People making some assumptions in their head and start arguing about stuff they actually have no idea about.

This exactly.
People just keep repeating the same things they've heard somewhere like its the Holy Bible for them.

@Whatzituyah I see youre still concerned about your nord character. But I can assure you (again) that your race cannot boost your dps by 5k and more as you claim. If anything, good rotation and gear would boost it much more, and yes, you can most likely get 5-10k more if you work on your rotation.
Also, youre playing on console version so you cant even check if your dps is that much lower compared to your supposedly "minmaxed" teammates. Its just your assumptions.

Whatzituyah

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

xblackroxe wrote: »

Whatzituyah wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

Whatzituyah wrote: »

Your right about this but when it comes to leaderboards it seems like it would be unfair. I think if we can't change it racial wise the leaderboard should account for the race and class some people don't have time for alts.

Edit to add that this thread just got to page two just now. If this thread dies all I ask is ZOS to consider these concerns.

rly....skill, gear etc >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>race

don't call your bad race if you can't make it on the leaderboards

Too be honest I haven't even tried Maelstrom Arena I was making assumptions.

See thats exactly the problem. People making some assumptions in their head and start arguing about stuff they actually have no idea about.

This exactly.
People just keep repeating the same things they've heard somewhere like its the Holy Bible for them.

@Whatzituyah I see youre still concerned about your nord character. But I can assure you (again) that your race cannot boost your dps by 5k and more as you claim. If anything, good rotation and gear would boost it much more, and yes, you can most likely get 5-10k more if you work on your rotation.
Also, youre playing on console version so you cant even check if your dps is that much lower compared to your supposedly "minmaxed" teammates. Its just your assumptions.

@KoshkaMurka Its Argonian.

LadyNalcarya

Whatzituyah wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

xblackroxe wrote: »

Whatzituyah wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

Whatzituyah wrote: »

Your right about this but when it comes to leaderboards it seems like it would be unfair. I think if we can't change it racial wise the leaderboard should account for the race and class some people don't have time for alts.

Edit to add that this thread just got to page two just now. If this thread dies all I ask is ZOS to consider these concerns.

rly....skill, gear etc >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>race

don't call your bad race if you can't make it on the leaderboards

Too be honest I haven't even tried Maelstrom Arena I was making assumptions.

See thats exactly the problem. People making some assumptions in their head and start arguing about stuff they actually have no idea about.

This exactly.
People just keep repeating the same things they've heard somewhere like its the Holy Bible for them.

@Whatzituyah I see youre still concerned about your nord character. But I can assure you (again) that your race cannot boost your dps by 5k and more as you claim. If anything, good rotation and gear would boost it much more, and yes, you can most likely get 5-10k more if you work on your rotation.
Also, youre playing on console version so you cant even check if your dps is that much lower compared to your supposedly "minmaxed" teammates. Its just your assumptions.

@KoshkaMurka Its Argonian.

Doesnt matter. You can pull pretty decent dps on it, and if youre not going for world records (saving extra seconds here and there), a few % extra dps do not matter.
If youre unhappy with the dps, try to improve your rotation, serioulsy. You can get a lot of extra damage this way and outdps pretty much any pug dd.

Duiwel

I agree with both ^

Can confirm though with 3k + Spell damage & 40k + magicka the dps difference is 5k.

But like I said it's negligable...

5k is not a lot.

Destruent

Duiwel wrote: »

I agree with both ^

Can confirm though with 3k + Spell damage & 40k + magicka the dps difference is 5k.

But like I said it's negligable...

5k is not a lot.

Somehow i can't take this serious...

ParaNostram

I play a Bosmer Magicka Sorc who never dies and kills enemy players like they're trash mobs, your argument is invalid. Honestly I'm taking a break from ESO because PvP has gotten boring, I win fights too easily.

Ep1kMalware

ParaNostram wrote: »

I play a Bosmer Magicka Sorc who never dies and kills enemy players like they're trash mobs, your argument is invalid. Honestly I'm taking a break from ESO because PvP has gotten boring, I win fights too easily.

so play a stambuil

also, try maelstrom. I could solo darkshade no prob but still struggled there on my first clear (stam build).

Destruent

Ep1kMalware wrote: »

ParaNostram wrote: »

I play a Bosmer Magicka Sorc who never dies and kills enemy players like they're trash mobs, your argument is invalid. Honestly I'm taking a break from ESO because PvP has gotten boring, I win fights too easily.

so play a stambuil

also, try maelstrom. I could solo darkshade no prob but still struggled there on my first clear (stam build).

shows only how easy darkshade caverns is and doesn't have to do with the topic...

d8rmir

xblackroxe wrote: »

So you have 2 rotations: flurry-trap-flurry-swap-endless hail-poison injection (1) or injection and hail switched (2). The thing is you wont empower trap-dot with the 2nd rotation as injection is taking it up. That means like -2k DPS just from switching out 2 abilities in your rotation.

@xblackroxe can you please go completely off-topic and elaborate on that? In my understanding the trap is empowered by the first flurry, and injection by the second. Even considering the trap activation time. What am I missing?

xblackroxe

d8rmir wrote: »

xblackroxe wrote: »

So you have 2 rotations: flurry-trap-flurry-swap-endless hail-poison injection (1) or injection and hail switched (2). The thing is you wont empower trap-dot with the 2nd rotation as injection is taking it up. That means like -2k DPS just from switching out 2 abilities in your rotation.

@xblackroxe can you please go completely off-topic and elaborate on that? In my understanding the trap is empowered by the first flurry, and injection by the second. Even considering the trap activation time. What am I missing?

The problem is that you need to wait a little cause trap takes 1.5 sec to go off an if you just switch to second bar and do injection it uses up the buff for trap. I had that problem some time and alone from switching around pi and hail dps on trap went up 2k.

timidobserver

xblackroxe wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

I really don't want to agree with this thread because I like races with meaningful differences, pros, and cons, but I do hate that you basically have to be an elf if you want to min/max magicka dps. Sure you can do fine with any race, but to reach your maximum potential as a magicka dps you need to be an elf. I do not want cosmetic races that are only different in appearance with slight meaningless mechanical differences like GW2, but I could go for a new race passive system that provides better options and flexibility.

But you would have to completely remove racials if you want to min/max and choose whatever race you want. Even if a race has like 0.5% damage increase compared to others you can't min/max without using this race. And there isn't that big of a disparity as people make it out to be. If you are bad you will still be bad with the perfect build and otherwise. Racials is just something bad people use to excuse being bad. If racials stop existing people will find other ways to do that till the game only is lightattacking and nothing else.

I don't care about racials being used as an excuse for bring bad or how big of a deal race bonuses are. My post is simply saying that a more complex race passive system with more options and flexibilty might be better. The first thing that comes to mind is a diablo 2 like path system for passives that allows every race to path toward their preferred playstyle. Basically more passives but limiting which ones the player can access by their previous decisions.