Min/Max why its a bane to ESO "IMO" and Racial Balance

Whatzituyah

Well heres the part where the criticism when this was still 1.0 version to somewhere around 1.5 version kicks in. When I first heard of this criticism I ignored it but people told me "This game doesn't know if it wants to be an MMO or Elder Scrolls." to an extent they are right but how is this relevant? In the other single player Elder Scrolls games you could practically be anything you want and races just made a slight difference in those games. ESO however does not, your race determines how strong you would be in the end game with damage dependent on resources rather than being slight differences.

This is a great concept that resources determine damage but not to much an extreme because of racials. My suggestion is to change all the percents in general into flat numbers where it works while making the races who have the highest/lowest percent still the highest/lowest. I would put examples up for every class who has a percent but it would require math I don't want to calculate at the moment.

This thread is basically a rewrite of my last thread that had negativity in my posts. Moderators if anything lock that thread and let this one remain but of course lock this if it gets too TOS unfriendly. Posters I only have one rule to this thread no references to the previous threads negative comments please. Last thing forgive my grammar and me.

Basically what I am trying to say in this thread is the current system encourages being certain races for certain characters for end game content.

xblackroxe

Well see I have to disagree with you on that. You don´t need to be a certain race to do good damage.
Like 95% or so comes from gear, CP (and I don´t mean the number I mean where you put them) and MOST importantly getting your rotation right. The last is the hardest but actually makes such a difference. I´ll give you an example: You are a stamDK/StamNB with VMA weapons. So you have 2 rotations: flurry-trap-flurry-swap-endless hail-poison injection (1) or injection and hail switched (2). The thing is you wont empower trap-dot with the 2nd rotation as injection is taking it up. That means like -2k DPS just from switching out 2 abilities in your rotation.
And race doesn´t make or break a build. Especially if you are not top-notch progressive raiding (which very little people actually do). Ofc it does make a difference but not as much as you make it out to be. I know a NB that goes like 2-3k down from Dunmer (optimal) to Bosmer (no helpful boni). Yes it is noticeable but unless you want to be first on the leaderboards it wont matter.

Also in general I don´t get why people have to hate so much against min/maxing. Like what is your problem? That you see other people can do so much more damage? Well I hate to tell you but what is a game where choice doesn´t matter? For me it would be boring if it doesn´t matter what you do you will always do the same damage. There is no diversity in anyway bc in reality all classes are just copies of each other with skills named different. And you would need to make everything the same in order to remove min/maxing. Else there will always be a best build/race/class/whatever.

xxslam48xxb14_ESO

How do you think they are going to sell race changes?

dodgehopper_ESO

I agree with the OP (Probably because he's stating an idea I've been pushing a while) :P. Static numbers would be so much healthier for the game now that we do not have overcharging. The inherent balance of the old system was forgotten when we moved over to a lack of limits (For damage output, not damage reduction mind you. Damage reduction still has a hard cap.).

xblackroxe wrote: »

Well see I have to disagree with you on that. You don´t need to be a certain race to do good damage.
Like 95% or so comes from gear, CP (and I don´t mean the number I mean where you put them) and MOST importantly getting your rotation right. The last is the hardest but actually makes such a difference. I´ll give you an example: You are a stamDK/StamNB with VMA weapons. So you have 2 rotations: flurry-trap-flurry-swap-endless hail-poison injection (1) or injection and hail switched (2). The thing is you wont empower trap-dot with the 2nd rotation as injection is taking it up. That means like -2k DPS just from switching out 2 abilities in your rotation.
And race doesn´t make or break a build. Especially if you are not top-notch progressive raiding (which very little people actually do). Ofc it does make a difference but not as much as you make it out to be. I know a NB that goes like 2-3k down from Dunmer (optimal) to Bosmer (no helpful boni). Yes it is noticeable but unless you want to be first on the leaderboards it wont matter.

Also in general I don´t get why people have to hate so much against min/maxing. Like what is your problem? That you see other people can do so much more damage? Well I hate to tell you but what is a game where choice doesn´t matter? For me it would be boring if it doesn´t matter what you do you will always do the same damage. There is no diversity in anyway bc in reality all classes are just copies of each other with skills named different. And you would need to make everything the same in order to remove min/maxing. Else there will always be a best build/race/class/whatever.

I really find rotations nauseating and repetitive for some reason. I understand their importance, but part of what I love about PVP is that you have to adapt, and you can't always do the 'perfect rotation' because of that adaptation. I'm not knocking the pve crowd, just explaining why I have a hard time repeating undaunted content on a regular basis. I know a lot of people are the raid crowd, and they love refining their build to sit on the maximum edge to slice apart the content. It just doesn't do it for me, and I know I'm not alone. I'd rather aim for 'better than average' or 'plenty good enough' in these scenarios, than be the best. I have plenty of respect for the best in these areas, but I think this perspective ought to be noted here. Race does matter, and it matters in a way that doesn't really apply to the history of Elder Scrolls games. In past games I could have made a Nord magician and done famously well at doing so, with NO REAL DISADVANTAGE. Why? Because at end game the differential between a Nord mage and an Altmer mage was pretty insignificant. In this game it relies on percentile differences which end up offsetting the differences in a major way. I don't dislike the uniqueness, but I do feel that a Nord should get the same bonus to health and health recovery whether he's a mage, a rogue, or a warrior. His attribute expenditure should not be part of that equation. Race should matter but it shouldn't be everything, and that's been my beef with it since we lost overcharging.

Whatzituyah

@xblackroxe I understand that people say this but I personally want to see the leaderboard and end game being more about skill than it does "How much damage can I squeeze out of this race?" if you get what I mean. Again its my opinion and I already switched my stanima Dragon Knight from an Argonian to a Wood Elf. That Argonian Dragon Knight I barely started anyway remade it into a Wood Elf even though it doesn't sound cool to me.

@xxslam48xxb14_ESO Your right thats the whole reason we wanted race change I just don't want races with certain class combinations to be extinct.

xblackroxe

Whatzituyah wrote: »

@xblackroxe I understand that people say this but I personally want to see the leaderboard and end game being more about skill than it does "How much damage can I squeeze out of this race?" if you get what I mean. Again its my opinion and I already switched my stanima Dragon Knight from an Argonian to a Wood Elf. That Argonian Dragon Knight I barely started anyway remade it into a Wood Elf even though it doesn't sound cool to me.

@xxslam48xxb14_ESO Your right thats the whole reason we wanted race change I just don't want races with certain class combinations to be extinct.

See well that is exactly where we are disagreeing. It takes skill to be on the leaderboards. Really much of it. And I´m talking about vSO, vMOL and vMA. And that takes skill to be on top. I don´t know what you understand under skill though.

Races won´t go extinct that game is mostly casual players that play for the sake of playing not for min/maxing.

Whatzituyah

xblackroxe wrote: »

Whatzituyah wrote: »

@xblackroxe I understand that people say this but I personally want to see the leaderboard and end game being more about skill than it does "How much damage can I squeeze out of this race?" if you get what I mean. Again its my opinion and I already switched my stanima Dragon Knight from an Argonian to a Wood Elf. That Argonian Dragon Knight I barely started anyway remade it into a Wood Elf even though it doesn't sound cool to me.

@xxslam48xxb14_ESO Your right thats the whole reason we wanted race change I just don't want races with certain class combinations to be extinct.

See well that is exactly where we are disagreeing. It takes skill to be on the leaderboards. Really much of it. And I´m talking about vSO, vMOL and vMA. And that takes skill to be on top. I don´t know what you understand under skill though.

Races won´t go extinct that game is mostly casual players that play for the sake of playing not for min/maxing.

@xblackroxe The casuals are playing just to play they come and go usually not running end game. In the other Elder Scrolls you can be a Nord Mage like @dodgehopper_ESO said and still be a good mage compared to Altmer because theirs not a big difference atleast one that mattered. That difference in ESO is noticeable end game.

xblackroxe

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

I agree with the OP (Probably because he's stating an idea I've been pushing a while) :P. Static numbers would be so much healthier for the game now that we do not have overcharging. The inherent balance of the old system was forgotten when we moved over to a lack of limits (For damage output, not damage reduction mind you. Damage reduction still has a hard cap.).

xblackroxe wrote: »

Well see I have to disagree with you on that. You don´t need to be a certain race to do good damage.
Like 95% or so comes from gear, CP (and I don´t mean the number I mean where you put them) and MOST importantly getting your rotation right. The last is the hardest but actually makes such a difference. I´ll give you an example: You are a stamDK/StamNB with VMA weapons. So you have 2 rotations: flurry-trap-flurry-swap-endless hail-poison injection (1) or injection and hail switched (2). The thing is you wont empower trap-dot with the 2nd rotation as injection is taking it up. That means like -2k DPS just from switching out 2 abilities in your rotation.
And race doesn´t make or break a build. Especially if you are not top-notch progressive raiding (which very little people actually do). Ofc it does make a difference but not as much as you make it out to be. I know a NB that goes like 2-3k down from Dunmer (optimal) to Bosmer (no helpful boni). Yes it is noticeable but unless you want to be first on the leaderboards it wont matter.

Also in general I don´t get why people have to hate so much against min/maxing. Like what is your problem? That you see other people can do so much more damage? Well I hate to tell you but what is a game where choice doesn´t matter? For me it would be boring if it doesn´t matter what you do you will always do the same damage. There is no diversity in anyway bc in reality all classes are just copies of each other with skills named different. And you would need to make everything the same in order to remove min/maxing. Else there will always be a best build/race/class/whatever.

I really find rotations nauseating and repetitive for some reason. I understand their importance, but part of what I love about PVP is that you have to adapt, and you can't always do the 'perfect rotation' because of that adaptation. I'm not knocking the pve crowd, just explaining why I have a hard time repeating undaunted content on a regular basis. I know a lot of people are the raid crowd, and they love refining their build to sit on the maximum edge to slice apart the content. It just doesn't do it for me, and I know I'm not alone. I'd rather aim for 'better than average' or 'plenty good enough' in these scenarios, than be the best. I have plenty of respect for the best in these areas, but I think this perspective ought to be noted here. Race does matter, and it matters in a way that doesn't really apply to the history of Elder Scrolls games. In past games I could have made a Nord magician and done famously well at doing so, with NO REAL DISADVANTAGE. Why? Because at end game the differential between a Nord mage and an Altmer mage was pretty insignificant. In this game it relies on percentile differences which end up offsetting the differences in a major way. I don't dislike the uniqueness, but I do feel that a Nord should get the same bonus to health and health recovery whether he's a mage, a rogue, or a warrior. His attribute expenditure should not be part of that equation. Race should matter but it shouldn't be everything, and that's been my beef with it since we lost overcharging.

Why do you compare a MMO to single-player titles? That just doesn´t make sense.
You also don´t have disadvantages as a Nord Mage. Its just not best. But you can still do every content you want and be good at it. Even in PvP. There race matters even less. If you are good you can be good with every race.

camilla_noctis

What I'm seeing here is a split between 'choices should matter' being set opposed to 'pick what you want'. I think as long as the racial bonuses only affect stamina/magicka throughput and meta, then yeah there's going to be stronger choices, along with cookie cutters. To have impactful choices AND more flexibility, racial bonuses would have to be on another "axis", in other words offer useful bonuses that don't directly affect primary attributes or the stam/mag meta. What that looks like, I don't know. Utility, racial actives, secondary stats...

Whatzituyah

xblackroxe wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

I agree with the OP (Probably because he's stating an idea I've been pushing a while) :P. Static numbers would be so much healthier for the game now that we do not have overcharging. The inherent balance of the old system was forgotten when we moved over to a lack of limits (For damage output, not damage reduction mind you. Damage reduction still has a hard cap.).

xblackroxe wrote: »

Well see I have to disagree with you on that. You don´t need to be a certain race to do good damage.
Like 95% or so comes from gear, CP (and I don´t mean the number I mean where you put them) and MOST importantly getting your rotation right. The last is the hardest but actually makes such a difference. I´ll give you an example: You are a stamDK/StamNB with VMA weapons. So you have 2 rotations: flurry-trap-flurry-swap-endless hail-poison injection (1) or injection and hail switched (2). The thing is you wont empower trap-dot with the 2nd rotation as injection is taking it up. That means like -2k DPS just from switching out 2 abilities in your rotation.
And race doesn´t make or break a build. Especially if you are not top-notch progressive raiding (which very little people actually do). Ofc it does make a difference but not as much as you make it out to be. I know a NB that goes like 2-3k down from Dunmer (optimal) to Bosmer (no helpful boni). Yes it is noticeable but unless you want to be first on the leaderboards it wont matter.

Also in general I don´t get why people have to hate so much against min/maxing. Like what is your problem? That you see other people can do so much more damage? Well I hate to tell you but what is a game where choice doesn´t matter? For me it would be boring if it doesn´t matter what you do you will always do the same damage. There is no diversity in anyway bc in reality all classes are just copies of each other with skills named different. And you would need to make everything the same in order to remove min/maxing. Else there will always be a best build/race/class/whatever.

I really find rotations nauseating and repetitive for some reason. I understand their importance, but part of what I love about PVP is that you have to adapt, and you can't always do the 'perfect rotation' because of that adaptation. I'm not knocking the pve crowd, just explaining why I have a hard time repeating undaunted content on a regular basis. I know a lot of people are the raid crowd, and they love refining their build to sit on the maximum edge to slice apart the content. It just doesn't do it for me, and I know I'm not alone. I'd rather aim for 'better than average' or 'plenty good enough' in these scenarios, than be the best. I have plenty of respect for the best in these areas, but I think this perspective ought to be noted here. Race does matter, and it matters in a way that doesn't really apply to the history of Elder Scrolls games. In past games I could have made a Nord magician and done famously well at doing so, with NO REAL DISADVANTAGE. Why? Because at end game the differential between a Nord mage and an Altmer mage was pretty insignificant. In this game it relies on percentile differences which end up offsetting the differences in a major way. I don't dislike the uniqueness, but I do feel that a Nord should get the same bonus to health and health recovery whether he's a mage, a rogue, or a warrior. His attribute expenditure should not be part of that equation. Race should matter but it shouldn't be everything, and that's been my beef with it since we lost overcharging.

Why do you compare a MMO to single-player titles? That just doesn´t make sense.
You also don´t have disadvantages as a Nord Mage. Its just not best. But you can still do every content you want and be good at it. Even in PvP. There race matters even less. If you are good you can be good with every race.

@xblackroxe Yet here you are saying skill on the leaderboards it mattered. Unless you can get to 1st on the leaderboards with a Magicka Nord you can't do everything. How do you know race didn't help get to the top.

Ep1kMalware

Why should everyone do the same exact dmg? I could roll a redgard stamplar anytime, but why bother when my bosmer pushes the same, if not dps as all my mates that are 1-5 on the vmsa leaderboards. And that's where it makes a difference, the leaderboards. where you rank could differ by 200 in the top scores because yiu or your team turned a corner faster.

min-maxing has helped this game with building effectivw builds. While you seem to fail on purpose and want ro bring everyone down to your level. I like casual players, but it's people like you that make them sound like scum with your finger pointing/entitlement.

you want equal stats scross the board, free helmets. gtfo.

if anything they shoukd cap pvp and make pve limitless.

xblackroxe

Whatzituyah wrote: »

xblackroxe wrote: »

Whatzituyah wrote: »

@xblackroxe I understand that people say this but I personally want to see the leaderboard and end game being more about skill than it does "How much damage can I squeeze out of this race?" if you get what I mean. Again its my opinion and I already switched my stanima Dragon Knight from an Argonian to a Wood Elf. That Argonian Dragon Knight I barely started anyway remade it into a Wood Elf even though it doesn't sound cool to me.

@xxslam48xxb14_ESO Your right thats the whole reason we wanted race change I just don't want races with certain class combinations to be extinct.

See well that is exactly where we are disagreeing. It takes skill to be on the leaderboards. Really much of it. And I´m talking about vSO, vMOL and vMA. And that takes skill to be on top. I don´t know what you understand under skill though.

Races won´t go extinct that game is mostly casual players that play for the sake of playing not for min/maxing.

@xblackroxe The casuals are playing just to play they come and go usually not running end game. In the other Elder Scrolls you can be a Nord Mage like @dodgehopper_ESO said and still be a good mage compared to Altmer because theirs not a big difference atleast one that mattered. That difference in ESO is noticeable end game.

But that is exactly my point it doesn´t matter. Its just a bonus. You can do good with every race you just can´t be the best. Everybody that tells you different has no idea.

Digiman

No it doesn't, you can be any race you want and still be good. This game isn't a click on rotations where you stand still all day, it's reactionary and most times you need to dodge or move to a different position to do damage.

On top of that you also have varity of different builds to suit your playstyle. You can only pick 5 abilities per weapon bar, that means you must design very specific builds to cater to your needs.

Race means nothing and REQUIRES SKILL POINTS TO ACTIVATE

Anyway this point is moot now because they are bringing race change tokens. You can buy crowns to change the race you want for your build.

Personally I hope these min/maxers actually blow through hundreds of dollars on this game for multiple race changers.

I am going to be happy with my NB shadowscale Argonian.

Ep1kMalware

fyi the difference between a redguard stampool and my woodelf's stampool is the difference of maybe 260wd. Not concerned, not even going to change race when that's a thing. Never stopped me from beating anything in competative times, and the only thing in my way of not getting competative leaderboard scores is my attitude about it.

Your problem is you can;t grow a pair and blame your own inequities on everything else.

xblackroxe

Whatzituyah wrote: »

xblackroxe wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

I agree with the OP (Probably because he's stating an idea I've been pushing a while) :P. Static numbers would be so much healthier for the game now that we do not have overcharging. The inherent balance of the old system was forgotten when we moved over to a lack of limits (For damage output, not damage reduction mind you. Damage reduction still has a hard cap.).

xblackroxe wrote: »

Well see I have to disagree with you on that. You don´t need to be a certain race to do good damage.
Like 95% or so comes from gear, CP (and I don´t mean the number I mean where you put them) and MOST importantly getting your rotation right. The last is the hardest but actually makes such a difference. I´ll give you an example: You are a stamDK/StamNB with VMA weapons. So you have 2 rotations: flurry-trap-flurry-swap-endless hail-poison injection (1) or injection and hail switched (2). The thing is you wont empower trap-dot with the 2nd rotation as injection is taking it up. That means like -2k DPS just from switching out 2 abilities in your rotation.
And race doesn´t make or break a build. Especially if you are not top-notch progressive raiding (which very little people actually do). Ofc it does make a difference but not as much as you make it out to be. I know a NB that goes like 2-3k down from Dunmer (optimal) to Bosmer (no helpful boni). Yes it is noticeable but unless you want to be first on the leaderboards it wont matter.

Also in general I don´t get why people have to hate so much against min/maxing. Like what is your problem? That you see other people can do so much more damage? Well I hate to tell you but what is a game where choice doesn´t matter? For me it would be boring if it doesn´t matter what you do you will always do the same damage. There is no diversity in anyway bc in reality all classes are just copies of each other with skills named different. And you would need to make everything the same in order to remove min/maxing. Else there will always be a best build/race/class/whatever.

I really find rotations nauseating and repetitive for some reason. I understand their importance, but part of what I love about PVP is that you have to adapt, and you can't always do the 'perfect rotation' because of that adaptation. I'm not knocking the pve crowd, just explaining why I have a hard time repeating undaunted content on a regular basis. I know a lot of people are the raid crowd, and they love refining their build to sit on the maximum edge to slice apart the content. It just doesn't do it for me, and I know I'm not alone. I'd rather aim for 'better than average' or 'plenty good enough' in these scenarios, than be the best. I have plenty of respect for the best in these areas, but I think this perspective ought to be noted here. Race does matter, and it matters in a way that doesn't really apply to the history of Elder Scrolls games. In past games I could have made a Nord magician and done famously well at doing so, with NO REAL DISADVANTAGE. Why? Because at end game the differential between a Nord mage and an Altmer mage was pretty insignificant. In this game it relies on percentile differences which end up offsetting the differences in a major way. I don't dislike the uniqueness, but I do feel that a Nord should get the same bonus to health and health recovery whether he's a mage, a rogue, or a warrior. His attribute expenditure should not be part of that equation. Race should matter but it shouldn't be everything, and that's been my beef with it since we lost overcharging.

Why do you compare a MMO to single-player titles? That just doesn´t make sense.
You also don´t have disadvantages as a Nord Mage. Its just not best. But you can still do every content you want and be good at it. Even in PvP. There race matters even less. If you are good you can be good with every race.

@xblackroxe Yet here you are saying skill on the leaderboards it mattered. Unless you can get to 1st on the leaderboards with a Magicka Nord you can't do everything. How do you know race didn't help get to the top.

I never said you can be THE best with any race combination. I said you can do EVERYTHING with EVERY race on EVERY class. And you can do it good. You just can´t be the best because you are missing a few percent. And if you want to be the best, work for it. That includes grinding up another char with a different race atm. That will be just easier with race change.

Whatzituyah

xblackroxe wrote: »

Whatzituyah wrote: »

xblackroxe wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

I agree with the OP (Probably because he's stating an idea I've been pushing a while) :P. Static numbers would be so much healthier for the game now that we do not have overcharging. The inherent balance of the old system was forgotten when we moved over to a lack of limits (For damage output, not damage reduction mind you. Damage reduction still has a hard cap.).

xblackroxe wrote: »

Well see I have to disagree with you on that. You don´t need to be a certain race to do good damage.
Like 95% or so comes from gear, CP (and I don´t mean the number I mean where you put them) and MOST importantly getting your rotation right. The last is the hardest but actually makes such a difference. I´ll give you an example: You are a stamDK/StamNB with VMA weapons. So you have 2 rotations: flurry-trap-flurry-swap-endless hail-poison injection (1) or injection and hail switched (2). The thing is you wont empower trap-dot with the 2nd rotation as injection is taking it up. That means like -2k DPS just from switching out 2 abilities in your rotation.
And race doesn´t make or break a build. Especially if you are not top-notch progressive raiding (which very little people actually do). Ofc it does make a difference but not as much as you make it out to be. I know a NB that goes like 2-3k down from Dunmer (optimal) to Bosmer (no helpful boni). Yes it is noticeable but unless you want to be first on the leaderboards it wont matter.

Also in general I don´t get why people have to hate so much against min/maxing. Like what is your problem? That you see other people can do so much more damage? Well I hate to tell you but what is a game where choice doesn´t matter? For me it would be boring if it doesn´t matter what you do you will always do the same damage. There is no diversity in anyway bc in reality all classes are just copies of each other with skills named different. And you would need to make everything the same in order to remove min/maxing. Else there will always be a best build/race/class/whatever.

I really find rotations nauseating and repetitive for some reason. I understand their importance, but part of what I love about PVP is that you have to adapt, and you can't always do the 'perfect rotation' because of that adaptation. I'm not knocking the pve crowd, just explaining why I have a hard time repeating undaunted content on a regular basis. I know a lot of people are the raid crowd, and they love refining their build to sit on the maximum edge to slice apart the content. It just doesn't do it for me, and I know I'm not alone. I'd rather aim for 'better than average' or 'plenty good enough' in these scenarios, than be the best. I have plenty of respect for the best in these areas, but I think this perspective ought to be noted here. Race does matter, and it matters in a way that doesn't really apply to the history of Elder Scrolls games. In past games I could have made a Nord magician and done famously well at doing so, with NO REAL DISADVANTAGE. Why? Because at end game the differential between a Nord mage and an Altmer mage was pretty insignificant. In this game it relies on percentile differences which end up offsetting the differences in a major way. I don't dislike the uniqueness, but I do feel that a Nord should get the same bonus to health and health recovery whether he's a mage, a rogue, or a warrior. His attribute expenditure should not be part of that equation. Race should matter but it shouldn't be everything, and that's been my beef with it since we lost overcharging.

Why do you compare a MMO to single-player titles? That just doesn´t make sense.
You also don´t have disadvantages as a Nord Mage. Its just not best. But you can still do every content you want and be good at it. Even in PvP. There race matters even less. If you are good you can be good with every race.

@xblackroxe Yet here you are saying skill on the leaderboards it mattered. Unless you can get to 1st on the leaderboards with a Magicka Nord you can't do everything. How do you know race didn't help get to the top.

I never said you can be THE best with any race combination. I said you can do EVERYTHING with EVERY race on EVERY class. And you can do it good. You just can´t be the best because you are missing a few percent. And if you want to be the best, work for it. That includes grinding up another char with a different race atm. That will be just easier with race change.

@xblackroxe Theirs my point Redguard, Altmer, and maybe Bretons would always be a the top of these leaderboards with combination of their skill. Which in turn ends with those races being more common end game and others endangered.

dodgehopper_ESO

xblackroxe wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

I agree with the OP (Probably because he's stating an idea I've been pushing a while) :P. Static numbers would be so much healthier for the game now that we do not have overcharging. The inherent balance of the old system was forgotten when we moved over to a lack of limits (For damage output, not damage reduction mind you. Damage reduction still has a hard cap.).

xblackroxe wrote: »

Well see I have to disagree with you on that. You don´t need to be a certain race to do good damage.
Like 95% or so comes from gear, CP (and I don´t mean the number I mean where you put them) and MOST importantly getting your rotation right. The last is the hardest but actually makes such a difference. I´ll give you an example: You are a stamDK/StamNB with VMA weapons. So you have 2 rotations: flurry-trap-flurry-swap-endless hail-poison injection (1) or injection and hail switched (2). The thing is you wont empower trap-dot with the 2nd rotation as injection is taking it up. That means like -2k DPS just from switching out 2 abilities in your rotation.
And race doesn´t make or break a build. Especially if you are not top-notch progressive raiding (which very little people actually do). Ofc it does make a difference but not as much as you make it out to be. I know a NB that goes like 2-3k down from Dunmer (optimal) to Bosmer (no helpful boni). Yes it is noticeable but unless you want to be first on the leaderboards it wont matter.

Also in general I don´t get why people have to hate so much against min/maxing. Like what is your problem? That you see other people can do so much more damage? Well I hate to tell you but what is a game where choice doesn´t matter? For me it would be boring if it doesn´t matter what you do you will always do the same damage. There is no diversity in anyway bc in reality all classes are just copies of each other with skills named different. And you would need to make everything the same in order to remove min/maxing. Else there will always be a best build/race/class/whatever.

I really find rotations nauseating and repetitive for some reason. I understand their importance, but part of what I love about PVP is that you have to adapt, and you can't always do the 'perfect rotation' because of that adaptation. I'm not knocking the pve crowd, just explaining why I have a hard time repeating undaunted content on a regular basis. I know a lot of people are the raid crowd, and they love refining their build to sit on the maximum edge to slice apart the content. It just doesn't do it for me, and I know I'm not alone. I'd rather aim for 'better than average' or 'plenty good enough' in these scenarios, than be the best. I have plenty of respect for the best in these areas, but I think this perspective ought to be noted here. Race does matter, and it matters in a way that doesn't really apply to the history of Elder Scrolls games. In past games I could have made a Nord magician and done famously well at doing so, with NO REAL DISADVANTAGE. Why? Because at end game the differential between a Nord mage and an Altmer mage was pretty insignificant. In this game it relies on percentile differences which end up offsetting the differences in a major way. I don't dislike the uniqueness, but I do feel that a Nord should get the same bonus to health and health recovery whether he's a mage, a rogue, or a warrior. His attribute expenditure should not be part of that equation. Race should matter but it shouldn't be everything, and that's been my beef with it since we lost overcharging.

Why do you compare a MMO to single-player titles? That just doesn´t make sense.
You also don´t have disadvantages as a Nord Mage. Its just not best. But you can still do every content you want and be good at it. Even in PvP. There race matters even less. If you are good you can be good with every race.

My only response to this is that the series plays a big role in defining the themes and gameplay of this game. This is supposed to be an Elder Scrolls title as much as it is a MMO. The solitary nature of a lot of the content is in many ways vindication of this statement, and was described by hordes of reviewers when this game was approaching release. I'd also like to point out that there are many MMO's where race has little to no impact on gameplay, so there is also a historical relevance from the MMO side of things here. Historically race did matter in TES products, I'm not going to lie. In the life cycle of a character Race played the greatest role in the early levels of the game (1-10) and in the middle levels it began to be less important until finally you became the mega-hero that you were, and race was essentially unimportant at top end. That's how it always played out for me, and I'm sure there are plenty of TES fans that will corroborate what I'm saying. I think my suggestion is a nice balance of concerns, and deals with the massive shift in value of the races that occurred when softcaps were done away with (Something which I vociferously spoke out against). If they were to shift the numbers on races back to a more static, additive calculation it would go a long way toward balance.

xblackroxe

Whatzituyah wrote: »

xblackroxe wrote: »

Whatzituyah wrote: »

xblackroxe wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

I agree with the OP (Probably because he's stating an idea I've been pushing a while) :P. Static numbers would be so much healthier for the game now that we do not have overcharging. The inherent balance of the old system was forgotten when we moved over to a lack of limits (For damage output, not damage reduction mind you. Damage reduction still has a hard cap.).

xblackroxe wrote: »

Well see I have to disagree with you on that. You don´t need to be a certain race to do good damage.
Like 95% or so comes from gear, CP (and I don´t mean the number I mean where you put them) and MOST importantly getting your rotation right. The last is the hardest but actually makes such a difference. I´ll give you an example: You are a stamDK/StamNB with VMA weapons. So you have 2 rotations: flurry-trap-flurry-swap-endless hail-poison injection (1) or injection and hail switched (2). The thing is you wont empower trap-dot with the 2nd rotation as injection is taking it up. That means like -2k DPS just from switching out 2 abilities in your rotation.
And race doesn´t make or break a build. Especially if you are not top-notch progressive raiding (which very little people actually do). Ofc it does make a difference but not as much as you make it out to be. I know a NB that goes like 2-3k down from Dunmer (optimal) to Bosmer (no helpful boni). Yes it is noticeable but unless you want to be first on the leaderboards it wont matter.

Also in general I don´t get why people have to hate so much against min/maxing. Like what is your problem? That you see other people can do so much more damage? Well I hate to tell you but what is a game where choice doesn´t matter? For me it would be boring if it doesn´t matter what you do you will always do the same damage. There is no diversity in anyway bc in reality all classes are just copies of each other with skills named different. And you would need to make everything the same in order to remove min/maxing. Else there will always be a best build/race/class/whatever.

I really find rotations nauseating and repetitive for some reason. I understand their importance, but part of what I love about PVP is that you have to adapt, and you can't always do the 'perfect rotation' because of that adaptation. I'm not knocking the pve crowd, just explaining why I have a hard time repeating undaunted content on a regular basis. I know a lot of people are the raid crowd, and they love refining their build to sit on the maximum edge to slice apart the content. It just doesn't do it for me, and I know I'm not alone. I'd rather aim for 'better than average' or 'plenty good enough' in these scenarios, than be the best. I have plenty of respect for the best in these areas, but I think this perspective ought to be noted here. Race does matter, and it matters in a way that doesn't really apply to the history of Elder Scrolls games. In past games I could have made a Nord magician and done famously well at doing so, with NO REAL DISADVANTAGE. Why? Because at end game the differential between a Nord mage and an Altmer mage was pretty insignificant. In this game it relies on percentile differences which end up offsetting the differences in a major way. I don't dislike the uniqueness, but I do feel that a Nord should get the same bonus to health and health recovery whether he's a mage, a rogue, or a warrior. His attribute expenditure should not be part of that equation. Race should matter but it shouldn't be everything, and that's been my beef with it since we lost overcharging.

Why do you compare a MMO to single-player titles? That just doesn´t make sense.
You also don´t have disadvantages as a Nord Mage. Its just not best. But you can still do every content you want and be good at it. Even in PvP. There race matters even less. If you are good you can be good with every race.

@xblackroxe Yet here you are saying skill on the leaderboards it mattered. Unless you can get to 1st on the leaderboards with a Magicka Nord you can't do everything. How do you know race didn't help get to the top.

I never said you can be THE best with any race combination. I said you can do EVERYTHING with EVERY race on EVERY class. And you can do it good. You just can´t be the best because you are missing a few percent. And if you want to be the best, work for it. That includes grinding up another char with a different race atm. That will be just easier with race change.

@xblackroxe Theirs my point Redguard, Altmer, and maybe Bretons would always be a the top of these leaderboards with combination of their skill.

And whats the problem? You made the choice of your race. If you chose your race only for the looks, lore, whatever execpt the racials then live with your decision or have the dedication to change it. Why shouldn´t something better be on top? And not the races will be on top but the most dedicated people that would be like a few % behind their optimal score with a "bad" race.
It seems a bit like you have to project you being not as good as you want on some imaginary problem because you don´t want to accept that you aren´t as good as others. I don´t get this mentality, honestly. There are many people, especially PvP players, that stick with their race even after changing from mag to stam or the other way around and still rock.

Shadesofkin

I've got an Argonian DPS Magicka DK who can roll 20k damage in most fights single target and thats being lazy without much weaving or any canceling, there's no need to "rebalance" any of the races as far as I'm concerned.

xblackroxe

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

xblackroxe wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

I agree with the OP (Probably because he's stating an idea I've been pushing a while) :P. Static numbers would be so much healthier for the game now that we do not have overcharging. The inherent balance of the old system was forgotten when we moved over to a lack of limits (For damage output, not damage reduction mind you. Damage reduction still has a hard cap.).

xblackroxe wrote: »

Well see I have to disagree with you on that. You don´t need to be a certain race to do good damage.
Like 95% or so comes from gear, CP (and I don´t mean the number I mean where you put them) and MOST importantly getting your rotation right. The last is the hardest but actually makes such a difference. I´ll give you an example: You are a stamDK/StamNB with VMA weapons. So you have 2 rotations: flurry-trap-flurry-swap-endless hail-poison injection (1) or injection and hail switched (2). The thing is you wont empower trap-dot with the 2nd rotation as injection is taking it up. That means like -2k DPS just from switching out 2 abilities in your rotation.
And race doesn´t make or break a build. Especially if you are not top-notch progressive raiding (which very little people actually do). Ofc it does make a difference but not as much as you make it out to be. I know a NB that goes like 2-3k down from Dunmer (optimal) to Bosmer (no helpful boni). Yes it is noticeable but unless you want to be first on the leaderboards it wont matter.

Also in general I don´t get why people have to hate so much against min/maxing. Like what is your problem? That you see other people can do so much more damage? Well I hate to tell you but what is a game where choice doesn´t matter? For me it would be boring if it doesn´t matter what you do you will always do the same damage. There is no diversity in anyway bc in reality all classes are just copies of each other with skills named different. And you would need to make everything the same in order to remove min/maxing. Else there will always be a best build/race/class/whatever.

I really find rotations nauseating and repetitive for some reason. I understand their importance, but part of what I love about PVP is that you have to adapt, and you can't always do the 'perfect rotation' because of that adaptation. I'm not knocking the pve crowd, just explaining why I have a hard time repeating undaunted content on a regular basis. I know a lot of people are the raid crowd, and they love refining their build to sit on the maximum edge to slice apart the content. It just doesn't do it for me, and I know I'm not alone. I'd rather aim for 'better than average' or 'plenty good enough' in these scenarios, than be the best. I have plenty of respect for the best in these areas, but I think this perspective ought to be noted here. Race does matter, and it matters in a way that doesn't really apply to the history of Elder Scrolls games. In past games I could have made a Nord magician and done famously well at doing so, with NO REAL DISADVANTAGE. Why? Because at end game the differential between a Nord mage and an Altmer mage was pretty insignificant. In this game it relies on percentile differences which end up offsetting the differences in a major way. I don't dislike the uniqueness, but I do feel that a Nord should get the same bonus to health and health recovery whether he's a mage, a rogue, or a warrior. His attribute expenditure should not be part of that equation. Race should matter but it shouldn't be everything, and that's been my beef with it since we lost overcharging.

Why do you compare a MMO to single-player titles? That just doesn´t make sense.
You also don´t have disadvantages as a Nord Mage. Its just not best. But you can still do every content you want and be good at it. Even in PvP. There race matters even less. If you are good you can be good with every race.

My only response to this is that the series plays a big role in defining the themes and gameplay of this game. This is supposed to be an Elder Scrolls title as much as it is a MMO. The solitary nature of a lot of the content is in many ways vindication of this statement, and was described by hordes of reviewers when this game was approaching release. I'd also like to point out that there are many MMO's where race has little to no impact on gameplay, so there is also a historical relevance from the MMO side of things here. Historically race did matter in TES products, I'm not going to lie. In the life cycle of a character Race played the greatest role in the early levels of the game (1-10) and in the middle levels it began to be less important until finally you became the mega-hero that you were, and race was essentially unimportant at top end. That's how it always played out for me, and I'm sure there are plenty of TES fans that will corroborate what I'm saying. I think my suggestion is a nice balance of concerns, and deals with the massive shift in value of the races that occurred when softcaps were done away with (Something which I vociferously spoke out against). If they were to shift the numbers on races back to a more static, additive calculation it would go a long way toward balance.

I don´t get where this "Races makes such a difference!" comes from. They freaking don´t. They just further advance yourself. The actual work to be good will still come from you. Or do you believe just because some bad player changes his race to the perfect one he will suddenly shine? I can tell you. He won´t, he will still suck.

Whatzituyah

xblackroxe wrote: »

Whatzituyah wrote: »

xblackroxe wrote: »

Whatzituyah wrote: »

xblackroxe wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

I agree with the OP (Probably because he's stating an idea I've been pushing a while) :P. Static numbers would be so much healthier for the game now that we do not have overcharging. The inherent balance of the old system was forgotten when we moved over to a lack of limits (For damage output, not damage reduction mind you. Damage reduction still has a hard cap.).

xblackroxe wrote: »

Well see I have to disagree with you on that. You don´t need to be a certain race to do good damage.
Like 95% or so comes from gear, CP (and I don´t mean the number I mean where you put them) and MOST importantly getting your rotation right. The last is the hardest but actually makes such a difference. I´ll give you an example: You are a stamDK/StamNB with VMA weapons. So you have 2 rotations: flurry-trap-flurry-swap-endless hail-poison injection (1) or injection and hail switched (2). The thing is you wont empower trap-dot with the 2nd rotation as injection is taking it up. That means like -2k DPS just from switching out 2 abilities in your rotation.
And race doesn´t make or break a build. Especially if you are not top-notch progressive raiding (which very little people actually do). Ofc it does make a difference but not as much as you make it out to be. I know a NB that goes like 2-3k down from Dunmer (optimal) to Bosmer (no helpful boni). Yes it is noticeable but unless you want to be first on the leaderboards it wont matter.

Also in general I don´t get why people have to hate so much against min/maxing. Like what is your problem? That you see other people can do so much more damage? Well I hate to tell you but what is a game where choice doesn´t matter? For me it would be boring if it doesn´t matter what you do you will always do the same damage. There is no diversity in anyway bc in reality all classes are just copies of each other with skills named different. And you would need to make everything the same in order to remove min/maxing. Else there will always be a best build/race/class/whatever.

I really find rotations nauseating and repetitive for some reason. I understand their importance, but part of what I love about PVP is that you have to adapt, and you can't always do the 'perfect rotation' because of that adaptation. I'm not knocking the pve crowd, just explaining why I have a hard time repeating undaunted content on a regular basis. I know a lot of people are the raid crowd, and they love refining their build to sit on the maximum edge to slice apart the content. It just doesn't do it for me, and I know I'm not alone. I'd rather aim for 'better than average' or 'plenty good enough' in these scenarios, than be the best. I have plenty of respect for the best in these areas, but I think this perspective ought to be noted here. Race does matter, and it matters in a way that doesn't really apply to the history of Elder Scrolls games. In past games I could have made a Nord magician and done famously well at doing so, with NO REAL DISADVANTAGE. Why? Because at end game the differential between a Nord mage and an Altmer mage was pretty insignificant. In this game it relies on percentile differences which end up offsetting the differences in a major way. I don't dislike the uniqueness, but I do feel that a Nord should get the same bonus to health and health recovery whether he's a mage, a rogue, or a warrior. His attribute expenditure should not be part of that equation. Race should matter but it shouldn't be everything, and that's been my beef with it since we lost overcharging.

Why do you compare a MMO to single-player titles? That just doesn´t make sense.
You also don´t have disadvantages as a Nord Mage. Its just not best. But you can still do every content you want and be good at it. Even in PvP. There race matters even less. If you are good you can be good with every race.

@xblackroxe Yet here you are saying skill on the leaderboards it mattered. Unless you can get to 1st on the leaderboards with a Magicka Nord you can't do everything. How do you know race didn't help get to the top.

I never said you can be THE best with any race combination. I said you can do EVERYTHING with EVERY race on EVERY class. And you can do it good. You just can´t be the best because you are missing a few percent. And if you want to be the best, work for it. That includes grinding up another char with a different race atm. That will be just easier with race change.

@xblackroxe Theirs my point Redguard, Altmer, and maybe Bretons would always be a the top of these leaderboards with combination of their skill.

And whats the problem? You made the choice of your race. If you chose your race only for the looks, lore, whatever execpt the racials then live with your decision or have the dedication to change it. Why shouldn´t something better be on top? And not the races will be on top but the most dedicated people that would be like a few % behind their optimal score with a "bad" race.
It seems a bit like you have to project you being not as good as you want on some imaginary problem because you don´t want to accept that you aren´t as good as others. I don´t get this mentality, honestly. There are many people, especially PvP players, that stick with their race even after changing from mag to stam or the other way around and still rock.

@xblackroxe Its more what do you expect me to do if a random I join in a dungeon, find in the world, or other places ingame that says "No this race with this class with max magicka/stanima is better!" huh? Report them for hurting my feels? That wouldn't be nice imo but it does hurt that people can do over 5k more dps than me because of the meta.

Shadesofkin

xblackroxe wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

xblackroxe wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

I agree with the OP (Probably because he's stating an idea I've been pushing a while) :P. Static numbers would be so much healthier for the game now that we do not have overcharging. The inherent balance of the old system was forgotten when we moved over to a lack of limits (For damage output, not damage reduction mind you. Damage reduction still has a hard cap.).

xblackroxe wrote: »

Well see I have to disagree with you on that. You don´t need to be a certain race to do good damage.
Like 95% or so comes from gear, CP (and I don´t mean the number I mean where you put them) and MOST importantly getting your rotation right. The last is the hardest but actually makes such a difference. I´ll give you an example: You are a stamDK/StamNB with VMA weapons. So you have 2 rotations: flurry-trap-flurry-swap-endless hail-poison injection (1) or injection and hail switched (2). The thing is you wont empower trap-dot with the 2nd rotation as injection is taking it up. That means like -2k DPS just from switching out 2 abilities in your rotation.
And race doesn´t make or break a build. Especially if you are not top-notch progressive raiding (which very little people actually do). Ofc it does make a difference but not as much as you make it out to be. I know a NB that goes like 2-3k down from Dunmer (optimal) to Bosmer (no helpful boni). Yes it is noticeable but unless you want to be first on the leaderboards it wont matter.

Also in general I don´t get why people have to hate so much against min/maxing. Like what is your problem? That you see other people can do so much more damage? Well I hate to tell you but what is a game where choice doesn´t matter? For me it would be boring if it doesn´t matter what you do you will always do the same damage. There is no diversity in anyway bc in reality all classes are just copies of each other with skills named different. And you would need to make everything the same in order to remove min/maxing. Else there will always be a best build/race/class/whatever.

I really find rotations nauseating and repetitive for some reason. I understand their importance, but part of what I love about PVP is that you have to adapt, and you can't always do the 'perfect rotation' because of that adaptation. I'm not knocking the pve crowd, just explaining why I have a hard time repeating undaunted content on a regular basis. I know a lot of people are the raid crowd, and they love refining their build to sit on the maximum edge to slice apart the content. It just doesn't do it for me, and I know I'm not alone. I'd rather aim for 'better than average' or 'plenty good enough' in these scenarios, than be the best. I have plenty of respect for the best in these areas, but I think this perspective ought to be noted here. Race does matter, and it matters in a way that doesn't really apply to the history of Elder Scrolls games. In past games I could have made a Nord magician and done famously well at doing so, with NO REAL DISADVANTAGE. Why? Because at end game the differential between a Nord mage and an Altmer mage was pretty insignificant. In this game it relies on percentile differences which end up offsetting the differences in a major way. I don't dislike the uniqueness, but I do feel that a Nord should get the same bonus to health and health recovery whether he's a mage, a rogue, or a warrior. His attribute expenditure should not be part of that equation. Race should matter but it shouldn't be everything, and that's been my beef with it since we lost overcharging.

Why do you compare a MMO to single-player titles? That just doesn´t make sense.
You also don´t have disadvantages as a Nord Mage. Its just not best. But you can still do every content you want and be good at it. Even in PvP. There race matters even less. If you are good you can be good with every race.

My only response to this is that the series plays a big role in defining the themes and gameplay of this game. This is supposed to be an Elder Scrolls title as much as it is a MMO. The solitary nature of a lot of the content is in many ways vindication of this statement, and was described by hordes of reviewers when this game was approaching release. I'd also like to point out that there are many MMO's where race has little to no impact on gameplay, so there is also a historical relevance from the MMO side of things here. Historically race did matter in TES products, I'm not going to lie. In the life cycle of a character Race played the greatest role in the early levels of the game (1-10) and in the middle levels it began to be less important until finally you became the mega-hero that you were, and race was essentially unimportant at top end. That's how it always played out for me, and I'm sure there are plenty of TES fans that will corroborate what I'm saying. I think my suggestion is a nice balance of concerns, and deals with the massive shift in value of the races that occurred when softcaps were done away with (Something which I vociferously spoke out against). If they were to shift the numbers on races back to a more static, additive calculation it would go a long way toward balance.

I don´t get where this "Races makes such a difference!" comes from. They freaking don´t. They just further advance yourself. The actual work to be good will still come from you. Or do you believe just because some bad player changes his race to the perfect one he will suddenly shine? I can tell you. He won´t, he will still suck.

That ^^^ right there. Do you know how many players I've grouped with who grinded their way to V16/501 and bought their Willpower/Agility sets as well as their armor and have tricked out fully optimized choices for races and class and are literally the worst players I've ever freaking met? Bad is bad, it doesn't matter how they change it, bad is bad. The guy wondering why he's not topping past 11k dps on his Bosmer Magicka DK isn't going to suddenly find he's able to do 25k when he swaps to Dunmer, he might do 13-15k sure, but dollars to doughnuts he's gonna keep standing in red and moving like a spaz during fights and screwing up his rotations.

xblackroxe

Shadesofkin wrote: »

I've got an Argonian DPS Magicka DK who can roll 20k damage in most fights single target and thats being lazy without much weaving or any canceling, there's no need to "rebalance" any of the races as far as I'm concerned.

Thanks for this comment. This is exactly what I want to say. Of course you aren´t doing the best dps but as you said your self its because you are lazy. If you had a Dunmer instead of an Argonian you would probably be pretty much a few % higher but who cares. If you have fun play it like this Go on
Its imo just people that chose a race for the looks then saw a guide that said this race is the best to complement this build and are now angry at the game for making this even possible instead of having fun with their race or reroll if its such abig problem

dodgehopper_ESO

xblackroxe wrote: »

Whatzituyah wrote: »

xblackroxe wrote: »

Whatzituyah wrote: »

xblackroxe wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

I agree with the OP (Probably because he's stating an idea I've been pushing a while) :P. Static numbers would be so much healthier for the game now that we do not have overcharging. The inherent balance of the old system was forgotten when we moved over to a lack of limits (For damage output, not damage reduction mind you. Damage reduction still has a hard cap.).

xblackroxe wrote: »

Well see I have to disagree with you on that. You don´t need to be a certain race to do good damage.
Like 95% or so comes from gear, CP (and I don´t mean the number I mean where you put them) and MOST importantly getting your rotation right. The last is the hardest but actually makes such a difference. I´ll give you an example: You are a stamDK/StamNB with VMA weapons. So you have 2 rotations: flurry-trap-flurry-swap-endless hail-poison injection (1) or injection and hail switched (2). The thing is you wont empower trap-dot with the 2nd rotation as injection is taking it up. That means like -2k DPS just from switching out 2 abilities in your rotation.
And race doesn´t make or break a build. Especially if you are not top-notch progressive raiding (which very little people actually do). Ofc it does make a difference but not as much as you make it out to be. I know a NB that goes like 2-3k down from Dunmer (optimal) to Bosmer (no helpful boni). Yes it is noticeable but unless you want to be first on the leaderboards it wont matter.

Also in general I don´t get why people have to hate so much against min/maxing. Like what is your problem? That you see other people can do so much more damage? Well I hate to tell you but what is a game where choice doesn´t matter? For me it would be boring if it doesn´t matter what you do you will always do the same damage. There is no diversity in anyway bc in reality all classes are just copies of each other with skills named different. And you would need to make everything the same in order to remove min/maxing. Else there will always be a best build/race/class/whatever.

I really find rotations nauseating and repetitive for some reason. I understand their importance, but part of what I love about PVP is that you have to adapt, and you can't always do the 'perfect rotation' because of that adaptation. I'm not knocking the pve crowd, just explaining why I have a hard time repeating undaunted content on a regular basis. I know a lot of people are the raid crowd, and they love refining their build to sit on the maximum edge to slice apart the content. It just doesn't do it for me, and I know I'm not alone. I'd rather aim for 'better than average' or 'plenty good enough' in these scenarios, than be the best. I have plenty of respect for the best in these areas, but I think this perspective ought to be noted here. Race does matter, and it matters in a way that doesn't really apply to the history of Elder Scrolls games. In past games I could have made a Nord magician and done famously well at doing so, with NO REAL DISADVANTAGE. Why? Because at end game the differential between a Nord mage and an Altmer mage was pretty insignificant. In this game it relies on percentile differences which end up offsetting the differences in a major way. I don't dislike the uniqueness, but I do feel that a Nord should get the same bonus to health and health recovery whether he's a mage, a rogue, or a warrior. His attribute expenditure should not be part of that equation. Race should matter but it shouldn't be everything, and that's been my beef with it since we lost overcharging.

Why do you compare a MMO to single-player titles? That just doesn´t make sense.
You also don´t have disadvantages as a Nord Mage. Its just not best. But you can still do every content you want and be good at it. Even in PvP. There race matters even less. If you are good you can be good with every race.

@xblackroxe Yet here you are saying skill on the leaderboards it mattered. Unless you can get to 1st on the leaderboards with a Magicka Nord you can't do everything. How do you know race didn't help get to the top.

I never said you can be THE best with any race combination. I said you can do EVERYTHING with EVERY race on EVERY class. And you can do it good. You just can´t be the best because you are missing a few percent. And if you want to be the best, work for it. That includes grinding up another char with a different race atm. That will be just easier with race change.

@xblackroxe Theirs my point Redguard, Altmer, and maybe Bretons would always be a the top of these leaderboards with combination of their skill.

And whats the problem? You made the choice of your race. If you chose your race only for the looks, lore, whatever execpt the racials then live with your decision or have the dedication to change it. Why shouldn´t something better be on top? And not the races will be on top but the most dedicated people that would be like a few % behind their optimal score with a "bad" race.
It seems a bit like you have to project you being not as good as you want on some imaginary problem because you don´t want to accept that you aren´t as good as others. I don´t get this mentality, honestly. There are many people, especially PvP players, that stick with their race even after changing from mag to stam or the other way around and still rock.

@xblackroxe I want you to realize I have absolutely no intent of ever changing the race of my characters. Lets be clear about that. I personally just think it is unhealthy for the game to have these kinds of disparities, and it will create resentment of the player base, PARTICULARLY when you consider the fact that certain builds or strongholds of power that certain races once represented were taken away with things as simple as rules changes or passive changes. I think it is unnecessary for there to be huge differences between races, and I don't think it is healthy for the game so I make that statement. Every single one of my characters is built for style as well as performance (or future performance). Some obviously have more niche uses than others, in large part because of the limitations of race. I will for instance never have a better thief than a Khajiit or a Bosmer. Do I think Argonians thematically should at least be on equal footing with these two? Absolutely. Are they? Not at all. That's life, and I'm not deleting my Argonian to deal with that. I've got a nice set of alternate stealth-oriented sets I use for thieving on the character and he performs plenty well enough. I can make any race do fine in any armor set and class while thieving, so you're right it is more about player skill, but I still think theme and balance should matter.

xblackroxe

Whatzituyah wrote: »

xblackroxe wrote: »

Whatzituyah wrote: »

xblackroxe wrote: »

Whatzituyah wrote: »

xblackroxe wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

I agree with the OP (Probably because he's stating an idea I've been pushing a while) :P. Static numbers would be so much healthier for the game now that we do not have overcharging. The inherent balance of the old system was forgotten when we moved over to a lack of limits (For damage output, not damage reduction mind you. Damage reduction still has a hard cap.).

xblackroxe wrote: »

Well see I have to disagree with you on that. You don´t need to be a certain race to do good damage.
Like 95% or so comes from gear, CP (and I don´t mean the number I mean where you put them) and MOST importantly getting your rotation right. The last is the hardest but actually makes such a difference. I´ll give you an example: You are a stamDK/StamNB with VMA weapons. So you have 2 rotations: flurry-trap-flurry-swap-endless hail-poison injection (1) or injection and hail switched (2). The thing is you wont empower trap-dot with the 2nd rotation as injection is taking it up. That means like -2k DPS just from switching out 2 abilities in your rotation.
And race doesn´t make or break a build. Especially if you are not top-notch progressive raiding (which very little people actually do). Ofc it does make a difference but not as much as you make it out to be. I know a NB that goes like 2-3k down from Dunmer (optimal) to Bosmer (no helpful boni). Yes it is noticeable but unless you want to be first on the leaderboards it wont matter.

Also in general I don´t get why people have to hate so much against min/maxing. Like what is your problem? That you see other people can do so much more damage? Well I hate to tell you but what is a game where choice doesn´t matter? For me it would be boring if it doesn´t matter what you do you will always do the same damage. There is no diversity in anyway bc in reality all classes are just copies of each other with skills named different. And you would need to make everything the same in order to remove min/maxing. Else there will always be a best build/race/class/whatever.

I really find rotations nauseating and repetitive for some reason. I understand their importance, but part of what I love about PVP is that you have to adapt, and you can't always do the 'perfect rotation' because of that adaptation. I'm not knocking the pve crowd, just explaining why I have a hard time repeating undaunted content on a regular basis. I know a lot of people are the raid crowd, and they love refining their build to sit on the maximum edge to slice apart the content. It just doesn't do it for me, and I know I'm not alone. I'd rather aim for 'better than average' or 'plenty good enough' in these scenarios, than be the best. I have plenty of respect for the best in these areas, but I think this perspective ought to be noted here. Race does matter, and it matters in a way that doesn't really apply to the history of Elder Scrolls games. In past games I could have made a Nord magician and done famously well at doing so, with NO REAL DISADVANTAGE. Why? Because at end game the differential between a Nord mage and an Altmer mage was pretty insignificant. In this game it relies on percentile differences which end up offsetting the differences in a major way. I don't dislike the uniqueness, but I do feel that a Nord should get the same bonus to health and health recovery whether he's a mage, a rogue, or a warrior. His attribute expenditure should not be part of that equation. Race should matter but it shouldn't be everything, and that's been my beef with it since we lost overcharging.

Why do you compare a MMO to single-player titles? That just doesn´t make sense.
You also don´t have disadvantages as a Nord Mage. Its just not best. But you can still do every content you want and be good at it. Even in PvP. There race matters even less. If you are good you can be good with every race.

@xblackroxe Yet here you are saying skill on the leaderboards it mattered. Unless you can get to 1st on the leaderboards with a Magicka Nord you can't do everything. How do you know race didn't help get to the top.

I never said you can be THE best with any race combination. I said you can do EVERYTHING with EVERY race on EVERY class. And you can do it good. You just can´t be the best because you are missing a few percent. And if you want to be the best, work for it. That includes grinding up another char with a different race atm. That will be just easier with race change.

@xblackroxe Theirs my point Redguard, Altmer, and maybe Bretons would always be a the top of these leaderboards with combination of their skill.

And whats the problem? You made the choice of your race. If you chose your race only for the looks, lore, whatever execpt the racials then live with your decision or have the dedication to change it. Why shouldn´t something better be on top? And not the races will be on top but the most dedicated people that would be like a few % behind their optimal score with a "bad" race.
It seems a bit like you have to project you being not as good as you want on some imaginary problem because you don´t want to accept that you aren´t as good as others. I don´t get this mentality, honestly. There are many people, especially PvP players, that stick with their race even after changing from mag to stam or the other way around and still rock.

@xblackroxe Its more what do you expect me to do if a random I join in a dungeon, find in the world, or other places ingame that says "No this race with this class with max magicka/stanima is better!" huh? Report them for hurting my feels? That wouldn't be nice imo but it does hurt that people can do over 5k more dps than me because of the meta.

Well here is the real problem. IDIOTS. There will always be those "I´m so good I don´t need to bother with all those scrubs" people. You have them in RL and ingame (here ofc much more bc of anonymity).
People don´t do 5k more DPS just because of race. Race is like 5-10% difference max so you would need 50k dps to have that big of a gap. And I´ve only seen 1 guy to get 50k+ on pure single target in a 2+min fight. And thats with every buff possible.

ComboBreaker88

Whatzituyah wrote: »

Well heres the part where the criticism when this was still 1.0 version to somewhere around 1.5 version kicks in. When I first heard of this criticism I ignored it but people told me "This game doesn't know if it wants to be an MMO or Elder Scrolls." to an extent they are right but how is this relevant? In the other single player Elder Scrolls games you could practically be anything you want and races just made a slight difference in those games. ESO however does not, your race determines how strong you would be in the end game with damage dependent on resources rather than being slight differences.

This is a great concept that resources determine damage but not to much an extreme because of racials. My suggestion is to change all the percents in general into flat numbers where it works while making the races who have the highest/lowest percent still the highest/lowest. I would put examples up for every class who has a percent but it would require math I don't want to calculate at the moment.

This thread is basically a rewrite of my last thread that had negativity in my posts. Moderators if anything lock that thread and let this one remain but of course lock this if it gets too TOS unfriendly. Posters I only have one rule to this thread no references to the previous threads negative comments please. Last thing forgive my grammar and me.

Basically what I am trying to say in this thread is the current system encourages being certain races for certain characters for end game content.

Race Changes confirmed. Your argument is invalid.

Whatzituyah

ComboBreaker88 wrote: »

Whatzituyah wrote: »

Well heres the part where the criticism when this was still 1.0 version to somewhere around 1.5 version kicks in. When I first heard of this criticism I ignored it but people told me "This game doesn't know if it wants to be an MMO or Elder Scrolls." to an extent they are right but how is this relevant? In the other single player Elder Scrolls games you could practically be anything you want and races just made a slight difference in those games. ESO however does not, your race determines how strong you would be in the end game with damage dependent on resources rather than being slight differences.

This is a great concept that resources determine damage but not to much an extreme because of racials. My suggestion is to change all the percents in general into flat numbers where it works while making the races who have the highest/lowest percent still the highest/lowest. I would put examples up for every class who has a percent but it would require math I don't want to calculate at the moment.

This thread is basically a rewrite of my last thread that had negativity in my posts. Moderators if anything lock that thread and let this one remain but of course lock this if it gets too TOS unfriendly. Posters I only have one rule to this thread no references to the previous threads negative comments please. Last thing forgive my grammar and me.

Basically what I am trying to say in this thread is the current system encourages being certain races for certain characters for end game content.

Race Changes confirmed. Your argument is invalid.

@ComboBreaker88 If its invalid we would see races still being used just about aswell as the other class. @xblackroxe I understand these are idiots but they sorta know what they are talking about in terms of end game.

xblackroxe

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

xblackroxe wrote: »

Whatzituyah wrote: »

xblackroxe wrote: »

Whatzituyah wrote: »

xblackroxe wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

I agree with the OP (Probably because he's stating an idea I've been pushing a while) :P. Static numbers would be so much healthier for the game now that we do not have overcharging. The inherent balance of the old system was forgotten when we moved over to a lack of limits (For damage output, not damage reduction mind you. Damage reduction still has a hard cap.).

xblackroxe wrote: »

Well see I have to disagree with you on that. You don´t need to be a certain race to do good damage.
Like 95% or so comes from gear, CP (and I don´t mean the number I mean where you put them) and MOST importantly getting your rotation right. The last is the hardest but actually makes such a difference. I´ll give you an example: You are a stamDK/StamNB with VMA weapons. So you have 2 rotations: flurry-trap-flurry-swap-endless hail-poison injection (1) or injection and hail switched (2). The thing is you wont empower trap-dot with the 2nd rotation as injection is taking it up. That means like -2k DPS just from switching out 2 abilities in your rotation.
And race doesn´t make or break a build. Especially if you are not top-notch progressive raiding (which very little people actually do). Ofc it does make a difference but not as much as you make it out to be. I know a NB that goes like 2-3k down from Dunmer (optimal) to Bosmer (no helpful boni). Yes it is noticeable but unless you want to be first on the leaderboards it wont matter.

Also in general I don´t get why people have to hate so much against min/maxing. Like what is your problem? That you see other people can do so much more damage? Well I hate to tell you but what is a game where choice doesn´t matter? For me it would be boring if it doesn´t matter what you do you will always do the same damage. There is no diversity in anyway bc in reality all classes are just copies of each other with skills named different. And you would need to make everything the same in order to remove min/maxing. Else there will always be a best build/race/class/whatever.

I really find rotations nauseating and repetitive for some reason. I understand their importance, but part of what I love about PVP is that you have to adapt, and you can't always do the 'perfect rotation' because of that adaptation. I'm not knocking the pve crowd, just explaining why I have a hard time repeating undaunted content on a regular basis. I know a lot of people are the raid crowd, and they love refining their build to sit on the maximum edge to slice apart the content. It just doesn't do it for me, and I know I'm not alone. I'd rather aim for 'better than average' or 'plenty good enough' in these scenarios, than be the best. I have plenty of respect for the best in these areas, but I think this perspective ought to be noted here. Race does matter, and it matters in a way that doesn't really apply to the history of Elder Scrolls games. In past games I could have made a Nord magician and done famously well at doing so, with NO REAL DISADVANTAGE. Why? Because at end game the differential between a Nord mage and an Altmer mage was pretty insignificant. In this game it relies on percentile differences which end up offsetting the differences in a major way. I don't dislike the uniqueness, but I do feel that a Nord should get the same bonus to health and health recovery whether he's a mage, a rogue, or a warrior. His attribute expenditure should not be part of that equation. Race should matter but it shouldn't be everything, and that's been my beef with it since we lost overcharging.

Why do you compare a MMO to single-player titles? That just doesn´t make sense.
You also don´t have disadvantages as a Nord Mage. Its just not best. But you can still do every content you want and be good at it. Even in PvP. There race matters even less. If you are good you can be good with every race.

@xblackroxe Yet here you are saying skill on the leaderboards it mattered. Unless you can get to 1st on the leaderboards with a Magicka Nord you can't do everything. How do you know race didn't help get to the top.

I never said you can be THE best with any race combination. I said you can do EVERYTHING with EVERY race on EVERY class. And you can do it good. You just can´t be the best because you are missing a few percent. And if you want to be the best, work for it. That includes grinding up another char with a different race atm. That will be just easier with race change.

@xblackroxe Theirs my point Redguard, Altmer, and maybe Bretons would always be a the top of these leaderboards with combination of their skill.

And whats the problem? You made the choice of your race. If you chose your race only for the looks, lore, whatever execpt the racials then live with your decision or have the dedication to change it. Why shouldn´t something better be on top? And not the races will be on top but the most dedicated people that would be like a few % behind their optimal score with a "bad" race.
It seems a bit like you have to project you being not as good as you want on some imaginary problem because you don´t want to accept that you aren´t as good as others. I don´t get this mentality, honestly. There are many people, especially PvP players, that stick with their race even after changing from mag to stam or the other way around and still rock.

@xblackroxe I want you to realize I have absolutely no intent of ever changing the race of my characters. Lets be clear about that. I personally just think it is unhealthy for the game to have these kinds of disparities, and it will create resentment of the player base, PARTICULARLY when you consider the fact that certain builds or strongholds of power that certain races once represented were taken away with things as simple as rules changes or passive changes. I think it is unnecessary for there to be huge differences between races, and I don't think it is healthy for the game so I make that statement. Every single one of my characters is built for style as well as performance (or future performance). Some obviously have more niche uses than others, in large part because of the limitations of race. I will for instance never have a better thief than a Khajiit or a Bosmer. Do I think Argonians thematically should at least be on equal footing with these two? Absolutely. Are they? Not at all. That's life, and I'm not deleting my Argonian to deal with that. I've got a nice set of alternate stealth-oriented sets I use for thieving on the character and he performs plenty well enough. I can make any race do fine in any armor set and class while thieving, so you're right it is more about player skill, but I still think theme and balance should matter.

Yes I got that from your other texts that you wont change races and I´m the last one to tell you do it.
See but you just think its such a disparity. Its like 5-10% difference tops. I really don´t know what you would consider as good dps but I´d say something between 20-30k is possible without any buffs from other people with just your skill. So you will vary like 1-3k dps depending on race. That really isn´t much. A bad player will still be a bad player even with the best possible setup and a good player will still do good with a bad setup because its about more than just doing good dps. Its about being aware of your surroundings avoid damage manage your ressources correctly,...
The last point you are talking about I totally agree with you. Races aren´t balanced. Argonian or Nord just have no noteworthy boni if you compare them to like altmer/redguard/khajiit. But thats an entirely different problem that has nothing to do with what this thread is about.

Whatzituyah

xblackroxe wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

xblackroxe wrote: »

Whatzituyah wrote: »

xblackroxe wrote: »

Whatzituyah wrote: »

xblackroxe wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

I agree with the OP (Probably because he's stating an idea I've been pushing a while) :P. Static numbers would be so much healthier for the game now that we do not have overcharging. The inherent balance of the old system was forgotten when we moved over to a lack of limits (For damage output, not damage reduction mind you. Damage reduction still has a hard cap.).

xblackroxe wrote: »

Well see I have to disagree with you on that. You don´t need to be a certain race to do good damage.
Like 95% or so comes from gear, CP (and I don´t mean the number I mean where you put them) and MOST importantly getting your rotation right. The last is the hardest but actually makes such a difference. I´ll give you an example: You are a stamDK/StamNB with VMA weapons. So you have 2 rotations: flurry-trap-flurry-swap-endless hail-poison injection (1) or injection and hail switched (2). The thing is you wont empower trap-dot with the 2nd rotation as injection is taking it up. That means like -2k DPS just from switching out 2 abilities in your rotation.
And race doesn´t make or break a build. Especially if you are not top-notch progressive raiding (which very little people actually do). Ofc it does make a difference but not as much as you make it out to be. I know a NB that goes like 2-3k down from Dunmer (optimal) to Bosmer (no helpful boni). Yes it is noticeable but unless you want to be first on the leaderboards it wont matter.

Also in general I don´t get why people have to hate so much against min/maxing. Like what is your problem? That you see other people can do so much more damage? Well I hate to tell you but what is a game where choice doesn´t matter? For me it would be boring if it doesn´t matter what you do you will always do the same damage. There is no diversity in anyway bc in reality all classes are just copies of each other with skills named different. And you would need to make everything the same in order to remove min/maxing. Else there will always be a best build/race/class/whatever.

I really find rotations nauseating and repetitive for some reason. I understand their importance, but part of what I love about PVP is that you have to adapt, and you can't always do the 'perfect rotation' because of that adaptation. I'm not knocking the pve crowd, just explaining why I have a hard time repeating undaunted content on a regular basis. I know a lot of people are the raid crowd, and they love refining their build to sit on the maximum edge to slice apart the content. It just doesn't do it for me, and I know I'm not alone. I'd rather aim for 'better than average' or 'plenty good enough' in these scenarios, than be the best. I have plenty of respect for the best in these areas, but I think this perspective ought to be noted here. Race does matter, and it matters in a way that doesn't really apply to the history of Elder Scrolls games. In past games I could have made a Nord magician and done famously well at doing so, with NO REAL DISADVANTAGE. Why? Because at end game the differential between a Nord mage and an Altmer mage was pretty insignificant. In this game it relies on percentile differences which end up offsetting the differences in a major way. I don't dislike the uniqueness, but I do feel that a Nord should get the same bonus to health and health recovery whether he's a mage, a rogue, or a warrior. His attribute expenditure should not be part of that equation. Race should matter but it shouldn't be everything, and that's been my beef with it since we lost overcharging.

Why do you compare a MMO to single-player titles? That just doesn´t make sense.
You also don´t have disadvantages as a Nord Mage. Its just not best. But you can still do every content you want and be good at it. Even in PvP. There race matters even less. If you are good you can be good with every race.

@xblackroxe Yet here you are saying skill on the leaderboards it mattered. Unless you can get to 1st on the leaderboards with a Magicka Nord you can't do everything. How do you know race didn't help get to the top.

I never said you can be THE best with any race combination. I said you can do EVERYTHING with EVERY race on EVERY class. And you can do it good. You just can´t be the best because you are missing a few percent. And if you want to be the best, work for it. That includes grinding up another char with a different race atm. That will be just easier with race change.

@xblackroxe Theirs my point Redguard, Altmer, and maybe Bretons would always be a the top of these leaderboards with combination of their skill.

And whats the problem? You made the choice of your race. If you chose your race only for the looks, lore, whatever execpt the racials then live with your decision or have the dedication to change it. Why shouldn´t something better be on top? And not the races will be on top but the most dedicated people that would be like a few % behind their optimal score with a "bad" race.
It seems a bit like you have to project you being not as good as you want on some imaginary problem because you don´t want to accept that you aren´t as good as others. I don´t get this mentality, honestly. There are many people, especially PvP players, that stick with their race even after changing from mag to stam or the other way around and still rock.

@xblackroxe I want you to realize I have absolutely no intent of ever changing the race of my characters. Lets be clear about that. I personally just think it is unhealthy for the game to have these kinds of disparities, and it will create resentment of the player base, PARTICULARLY when you consider the fact that certain builds or strongholds of power that certain races once represented were taken away with things as simple as rules changes or passive changes. I think it is unnecessary for there to be huge differences between races, and I don't think it is healthy for the game so I make that statement. Every single one of my characters is built for style as well as performance (or future performance). Some obviously have more niche uses than others, in large part because of the limitations of race. I will for instance never have a better thief than a Khajiit or a Bosmer. Do I think Argonians thematically should at least be on equal footing with these two? Absolutely. Are they? Not at all. That's life, and I'm not deleting my Argonian to deal with that. I've got a nice set of alternate stealth-oriented sets I use for thieving on the character and he performs plenty well enough. I can make any race do fine in any armor set and class while thieving, so you're right it is more about player skill, but I still think theme and balance should matter.

Yes I got that from your other texts that you wont change races and I´m the last one to tell you do it.
See but you just think its such a disparity. Its like 5-10% difference tops. I really don´t know what you would consider as good dps but I´d say something between 20-30k is possible without any buffs from other people with just your skill. So you will vary like 1-3k dps depending on race. That really isn´t much. A bad player will still be a bad player even with the best possible setup and a good player will still do good with a bad setup because its about more than just doing good dps. Its about being aware of your surroundings avoid damage manage your ressources correctly,...
The last point you are talking about I totally agree with you. Races aren´t balanced. Argonian or Nord just have no noteworthy boni if you compare them to like altmer/redguard/khajiit. But thats an entirely different problem that has nothing to do with what this thread is about.

@xblackroxe Notice it says and race balance in the title its also about that.

xblackroxe

Whatzituyah wrote: »

ComboBreaker88 wrote: »

Whatzituyah wrote: »

Well heres the part where the criticism when this was still 1.0 version to somewhere around 1.5 version kicks in. When I first heard of this criticism I ignored it but people told me "This game doesn't know if it wants to be an MMO or Elder Scrolls." to an extent they are right but how is this relevant? In the other single player Elder Scrolls games you could practically be anything you want and races just made a slight difference in those games. ESO however does not, your race determines how strong you would be in the end game with damage dependent on resources rather than being slight differences.

This is a great concept that resources determine damage but not to much an extreme because of racials. My suggestion is to change all the percents in general into flat numbers where it works while making the races who have the highest/lowest percent still the highest/lowest. I would put examples up for every class who has a percent but it would require math I don't want to calculate at the moment.

This thread is basically a rewrite of my last thread that had negativity in my posts. Moderators if anything lock that thread and let this one remain but of course lock this if it gets too TOS unfriendly. Posters I only have one rule to this thread no references to the previous threads negative comments please. Last thing forgive my grammar and me.

Basically what I am trying to say in this thread is the current system encourages being certain races for certain characters for end game content.

Race Changes confirmed. Your argument is invalid.

@ComboBreaker88 If its invalid we would see races still being used just about aswell as the other class. @xblackroxe I understand these are idiots but they sorta know what they are talking about in terms of end game.

No they don´t. Someone that really knows what he is talking about will take any dps and the group will still do good. People that kick you for *** are just wannabes that actually need to be carried themselves so they kick supposedly bad people so that nobody sees that they are the real problem. I have never kicked anybody from the group for builds or Race or CP. I on the other hand have kicked some people because they are idiots or just don´t listen. I´m not gonna bother ressing someone the 5th time if they can´t even avoid easy red aoes.

xblackroxe

Whatzituyah wrote: »

xblackroxe wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

xblackroxe wrote: »

Whatzituyah wrote: »

xblackroxe wrote: »

Whatzituyah wrote: »

xblackroxe wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

I agree with the OP (Probably because he's stating an idea I've been pushing a while) :P. Static numbers would be so much healthier for the game now that we do not have overcharging. The inherent balance of the old system was forgotten when we moved over to a lack of limits (For damage output, not damage reduction mind you. Damage reduction still has a hard cap.).

xblackroxe wrote: »

Well see I have to disagree with you on that. You don´t need to be a certain race to do good damage.
Like 95% or so comes from gear, CP (and I don´t mean the number I mean where you put them) and MOST importantly getting your rotation right. The last is the hardest but actually makes such a difference. I´ll give you an example: You are a stamDK/StamNB with VMA weapons. So you have 2 rotations: flurry-trap-flurry-swap-endless hail-poison injection (1) or injection and hail switched (2). The thing is you wont empower trap-dot with the 2nd rotation as injection is taking it up. That means like -2k DPS just from switching out 2 abilities in your rotation.
And race doesn´t make or break a build. Especially if you are not top-notch progressive raiding (which very little people actually do). Ofc it does make a difference but not as much as you make it out to be. I know a NB that goes like 2-3k down from Dunmer (optimal) to Bosmer (no helpful boni). Yes it is noticeable but unless you want to be first on the leaderboards it wont matter.

Also in general I don´t get why people have to hate so much against min/maxing. Like what is your problem? That you see other people can do so much more damage? Well I hate to tell you but what is a game where choice doesn´t matter? For me it would be boring if it doesn´t matter what you do you will always do the same damage. There is no diversity in anyway bc in reality all classes are just copies of each other with skills named different. And you would need to make everything the same in order to remove min/maxing. Else there will always be a best build/race/class/whatever.

I really find rotations nauseating and repetitive for some reason. I understand their importance, but part of what I love about PVP is that you have to adapt, and you can't always do the 'perfect rotation' because of that adaptation. I'm not knocking the pve crowd, just explaining why I have a hard time repeating undaunted content on a regular basis. I know a lot of people are the raid crowd, and they love refining their build to sit on the maximum edge to slice apart the content. It just doesn't do it for me, and I know I'm not alone. I'd rather aim for 'better than average' or 'plenty good enough' in these scenarios, than be the best. I have plenty of respect for the best in these areas, but I think this perspective ought to be noted here. Race does matter, and it matters in a way that doesn't really apply to the history of Elder Scrolls games. In past games I could have made a Nord magician and done famously well at doing so, with NO REAL DISADVANTAGE. Why? Because at end game the differential between a Nord mage and an Altmer mage was pretty insignificant. In this game it relies on percentile differences which end up offsetting the differences in a major way. I don't dislike the uniqueness, but I do feel that a Nord should get the same bonus to health and health recovery whether he's a mage, a rogue, or a warrior. His attribute expenditure should not be part of that equation. Race should matter but it shouldn't be everything, and that's been my beef with it since we lost overcharging.

Why do you compare a MMO to single-player titles? That just doesn´t make sense.
You also don´t have disadvantages as a Nord Mage. Its just not best. But you can still do every content you want and be good at it. Even in PvP. There race matters even less. If you are good you can be good with every race.

@xblackroxe Yet here you are saying skill on the leaderboards it mattered. Unless you can get to 1st on the leaderboards with a Magicka Nord you can't do everything. How do you know race didn't help get to the top.

I never said you can be THE best with any race combination. I said you can do EVERYTHING with EVERY race on EVERY class. And you can do it good. You just can´t be the best because you are missing a few percent. And if you want to be the best, work for it. That includes grinding up another char with a different race atm. That will be just easier with race change.

@xblackroxe Theirs my point Redguard, Altmer, and maybe Bretons would always be a the top of these leaderboards with combination of their skill.

And whats the problem? You made the choice of your race. If you chose your race only for the looks, lore, whatever execpt the racials then live with your decision or have the dedication to change it. Why shouldn´t something better be on top? And not the races will be on top but the most dedicated people that would be like a few % behind their optimal score with a "bad" race.
It seems a bit like you have to project you being not as good as you want on some imaginary problem because you don´t want to accept that you aren´t as good as others. I don´t get this mentality, honestly. There are many people, especially PvP players, that stick with their race even after changing from mag to stam or the other way around and still rock.

@xblackroxe I want you to realize I have absolutely no intent of ever changing the race of my characters. Lets be clear about that. I personally just think it is unhealthy for the game to have these kinds of disparities, and it will create resentment of the player base, PARTICULARLY when you consider the fact that certain builds or strongholds of power that certain races once represented were taken away with things as simple as rules changes or passive changes. I think it is unnecessary for there to be huge differences between races, and I don't think it is healthy for the game so I make that statement. Every single one of my characters is built for style as well as performance (or future performance). Some obviously have more niche uses than others, in large part because of the limitations of race. I will for instance never have a better thief than a Khajiit or a Bosmer. Do I think Argonians thematically should at least be on equal footing with these two? Absolutely. Are they? Not at all. That's life, and I'm not deleting my Argonian to deal with that. I've got a nice set of alternate stealth-oriented sets I use for thieving on the character and he performs plenty well enough. I can make any race do fine in any armor set and class while thieving, so you're right it is more about player skill, but I still think theme and balance should matter.

Yes I got that from your other texts that you wont change races and I´m the last one to tell you do it.
See but you just think its such a disparity. Its like 5-10% difference tops. I really don´t know what you would consider as good dps but I´d say something between 20-30k is possible without any buffs from other people with just your skill. So you will vary like 1-3k dps depending on race. That really isn´t much. A bad player will still be a bad player even with the best possible setup and a good player will still do good with a bad setup because its about more than just doing good dps. Its about being aware of your surroundings avoid damage manage your ressources correctly,...
The last point you are talking about I totally agree with you. Races aren´t balanced. Argonian or Nord just have no noteworthy boni if you compare them to like altmer/redguard/khajiit. But thats an entirely different problem that has nothing to do with what this thread is about.

@xblackroxe Notice it says and race balance in the title its also about that.

Sorry okay then its a part of this thread but not a part of what I´m trying to argue. I´m 100% with you on the balance issue of races that some just don´t offer anything.
EDIT: spelling