Min/Max why its a bane to ESO "IMO" and Racial Balance

dodgehopper_ESO

xblackroxe wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

xblackroxe wrote: »

Whatzituyah wrote: »

xblackroxe wrote: »

Whatzituyah wrote: »

xblackroxe wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

I agree with the OP (Probably because he's stating an idea I've been pushing a while) :P. Static numbers would be so much healthier for the game now that we do not have overcharging. The inherent balance of the old system was forgotten when we moved over to a lack of limits (For damage output, not damage reduction mind you. Damage reduction still has a hard cap.).

xblackroxe wrote: »

Well see I have to disagree with you on that. You don´t need to be a certain race to do good damage.
Like 95% or so comes from gear, CP (and I don´t mean the number I mean where you put them) and MOST importantly getting your rotation right. The last is the hardest but actually makes such a difference. I´ll give you an example: You are a stamDK/StamNB with VMA weapons. So you have 2 rotations: flurry-trap-flurry-swap-endless hail-poison injection (1) or injection and hail switched (2). The thing is you wont empower trap-dot with the 2nd rotation as injection is taking it up. That means like -2k DPS just from switching out 2 abilities in your rotation.
And race doesn´t make or break a build. Especially if you are not top-notch progressive raiding (which very little people actually do). Ofc it does make a difference but not as much as you make it out to be. I know a NB that goes like 2-3k down from Dunmer (optimal) to Bosmer (no helpful boni). Yes it is noticeable but unless you want to be first on the leaderboards it wont matter.

Also in general I don´t get why people have to hate so much against min/maxing. Like what is your problem? That you see other people can do so much more damage? Well I hate to tell you but what is a game where choice doesn´t matter? For me it would be boring if it doesn´t matter what you do you will always do the same damage. There is no diversity in anyway bc in reality all classes are just copies of each other with skills named different. And you would need to make everything the same in order to remove min/maxing. Else there will always be a best build/race/class/whatever.

I really find rotations nauseating and repetitive for some reason. I understand their importance, but part of what I love about PVP is that you have to adapt, and you can't always do the 'perfect rotation' because of that adaptation. I'm not knocking the pve crowd, just explaining why I have a hard time repeating undaunted content on a regular basis. I know a lot of people are the raid crowd, and they love refining their build to sit on the maximum edge to slice apart the content. It just doesn't do it for me, and I know I'm not alone. I'd rather aim for 'better than average' or 'plenty good enough' in these scenarios, than be the best. I have plenty of respect for the best in these areas, but I think this perspective ought to be noted here. Race does matter, and it matters in a way that doesn't really apply to the history of Elder Scrolls games. In past games I could have made a Nord magician and done famously well at doing so, with NO REAL DISADVANTAGE. Why? Because at end game the differential between a Nord mage and an Altmer mage was pretty insignificant. In this game it relies on percentile differences which end up offsetting the differences in a major way. I don't dislike the uniqueness, but I do feel that a Nord should get the same bonus to health and health recovery whether he's a mage, a rogue, or a warrior. His attribute expenditure should not be part of that equation. Race should matter but it shouldn't be everything, and that's been my beef with it since we lost overcharging.

Why do you compare a MMO to single-player titles? That just doesn´t make sense.
You also don´t have disadvantages as a Nord Mage. Its just not best. But you can still do every content you want and be good at it. Even in PvP. There race matters even less. If you are good you can be good with every race.

@xblackroxe Yet here you are saying skill on the leaderboards it mattered. Unless you can get to 1st on the leaderboards with a Magicka Nord you can't do everything. How do you know race didn't help get to the top.

I never said you can be THE best with any race combination. I said you can do EVERYTHING with EVERY race on EVERY class. And you can do it good. You just can´t be the best because you are missing a few percent. And if you want to be the best, work for it. That includes grinding up another char with a different race atm. That will be just easier with race change.

@xblackroxe Theirs my point Redguard, Altmer, and maybe Bretons would always be a the top of these leaderboards with combination of their skill.

And whats the problem? You made the choice of your race. If you chose your race only for the looks, lore, whatever execpt the racials then live with your decision or have the dedication to change it. Why shouldn´t something better be on top? And not the races will be on top but the most dedicated people that would be like a few % behind their optimal score with a "bad" race.
It seems a bit like you have to project you being not as good as you want on some imaginary problem because you don´t want to accept that you aren´t as good as others. I don´t get this mentality, honestly. There are many people, especially PvP players, that stick with their race even after changing from mag to stam or the other way around and still rock.

@xblackroxe I want you to realize I have absolutely no intent of ever changing the race of my characters. Lets be clear about that. I personally just think it is unhealthy for the game to have these kinds of disparities, and it will create resentment of the player base, PARTICULARLY when you consider the fact that certain builds or strongholds of power that certain races once represented were taken away with things as simple as rules changes or passive changes. I think it is unnecessary for there to be huge differences between races, and I don't think it is healthy for the game so I make that statement. Every single one of my characters is built for style as well as performance (or future performance). Some obviously have more niche uses than others, in large part because of the limitations of race. I will for instance never have a better thief than a Khajiit or a Bosmer. Do I think Argonians thematically should at least be on equal footing with these two? Absolutely. Are they? Not at all. That's life, and I'm not deleting my Argonian to deal with that. I've got a nice set of alternate stealth-oriented sets I use for thieving on the character and he performs plenty well enough. I can make any race do fine in any armor set and class while thieving, so you're right it is more about player skill, but I still think theme and balance should matter.

Yes I got that from your other texts that you wont change races and I´m the last one to tell you do it.
See but you just think its such a disparity. Its like 5-10% difference tops. I really don´t know what you would consider as good dps but I´d say something between 20-30k is possible without any buffs from other people with just your skill. So you will vary like 1-3k dps depending on race. That really isn´t much. A bad player will still be a bad player even with the best possible setup and a good player will still do good with a bad setup because its about more than just doing good dps. Its about being aware of your surroundings avoid damage manage your ressources correctly,...
The last point you are talking about I totally agree with you. Races aren´t balanced. Argonian or Nord just have no noteworthy boni if you compare them to like altmer/redguard/khajiit. But thats an entirely different problem that has nothing to do with what this thread is about.

Well I think the crux of the concern in the thread is that it is in fact a 5-10% differential, and perhaps it need not be so. The theme can still exist, can still matter, while simultaneously be balanced. The racial difference was much more balanced in the early stages of the game, even with the flaws. My point is that this is something they could easily correct. My overarching concern is that I personally find it repulsive that ZoS should get paid essentially for changing game rules that in turn promotes players to pay them to race change, which then in turn gives them good cause to 'balance' races again simply to earn more cash. I've seen other games do something similar before, and THAT is my primary concern. Balance should be something they strive for, not a switch they can flip to generate income. I'm less concerned about that 5-10% than I am about the potential for abuse (which is not the same as my saying they will abuse it). I simply don't like that potential to exist in the first place, and it stains their reputation whether it is deserved or not.

Ep1kMalware

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

xblackroxe wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

I agree with the OP (Probably because he's stating an idea I've been pushing a while) :P. Static numbers would be so much healthier for the game now that we do not have overcharging. The inherent balance of the old system was forgotten when we moved over to a lack of limits (For damage output, not damage reduction mind you. Damage reduction still has a hard cap.).

xblackroxe wrote: »

Well see I have to disagree with you on that. You don´t need to be a certain race to do good damage.
Like 95% or so comes from gear, CP (and I don´t mean the number I mean where you put them) and MOST importantly getting your rotation right. The last is the hardest but actually makes such a difference. I´ll give you an example: You are a stamDK/StamNB with VMA weapons. So you have 2 rotations: flurry-trap-flurry-swap-endless hail-poison injection (1) or injection and hail switched (2). The thing is you wont empower trap-dot with the 2nd rotation as injection is taking it up. That means like -2k DPS just from switching out 2 abilities in your rotation.
And race doesn´t make or break a build. Especially if you are not top-notch progressive raiding (which very little people actually do). Ofc it does make a difference but not as much as you make it out to be. I know a NB that goes like 2-3k down from Dunmer (optimal) to Bosmer (no helpful boni). Yes it is noticeable but unless you want to be first on the leaderboards it wont matter.

Also in general I don´t get why people have to hate so much against min/maxing. Like what is your problem? That you see other people can do so much more damage? Well I hate to tell you but what is a game where choice doesn´t matter? For me it would be boring if it doesn´t matter what you do you will always do the same damage. There is no diversity in anyway bc in reality all classes are just copies of each other with skills named different. And you would need to make everything the same in order to remove min/maxing. Else there will always be a best build/race/class/whatever.

I really find rotations nauseating and repetitive for some reason. I understand their importance, but part of what I love about PVP is that you have to adapt, and you can't always do the 'perfect rotation' because of that adaptation. I'm not knocking the pve crowd, just explaining why I have a hard time repeating undaunted content on a regular basis. I know a lot of people are the raid crowd, and they love refining their build to sit on the maximum edge to slice apart the content. It just doesn't do it for me, and I know I'm not alone. I'd rather aim for 'better than average' or 'plenty good enough' in these scenarios, than be the best. I have plenty of respect for the best in these areas, but I think this perspective ought to be noted here. Race does matter, and it matters in a way that doesn't really apply to the history of Elder Scrolls games. In past games I could have made a Nord magician and done famously well at doing so, with NO REAL DISADVANTAGE. Why? Because at end game the differential between a Nord mage and an Altmer mage was pretty insignificant. In this game it relies on percentile differences which end up offsetting the differences in a major way. I don't dislike the uniqueness, but I do feel that a Nord should get the same bonus to health and health recovery whether he's a mage, a rogue, or a warrior. His attribute expenditure should not be part of that equation. Race should matter but it shouldn't be everything, and that's been my beef with it since we lost overcharging.

Why do you compare a MMO to single-player titles? That just doesn´t make sense.
You also don´t have disadvantages as a Nord Mage. Its just not best. But you can still do every content you want and be good at it. Even in PvP. There race matters even less. If you are good you can be good with every race.

My only response to this is that the series plays a big role in defining the themes and gameplay of this game. This is supposed to be an Elder Scrolls title as much as it is a MMO. The solitary nature of a lot of the content is in many ways vindication of this statement, and was described by hordes of reviewers when this game was approaching release. I'd also like to point out that there are many MMO's where race has little to no impact on gameplay, so there is also a historical relevance from the MMO side of things here. Historically race did matter in TES products, I'm not going to lie. In the life cycle of a character Race played the greatest role in the early levels of the game (1-10) and in the middle levels it began to be less important until finally you became the mega-hero that you were, and race was essentially unimportant at top end. That's how it always played out for me, and I'm sure there are plenty of TES fans that will corroborate what I'm saying. I think my suggestion is a nice balance of concerns, and deals with the massive shift in value of the races that occurred when softcaps were done away with (Something which I vociferously spoke out against). If they were to shift the numbers on races back to a more static, additive calculation it would go a long way toward balance.

No, balance would be stuff like cp caps for pvp, skill differentials between abilities used in pvp vs pve. Just because you can't play the game doesn't mean it's automatically not balanced (needs improvement, but that's not where).

redguards have the adrenaline rush [passive. that means they can sustaim better in the 2nd phase of last maelstrom boss and burn crystals down much quicker.

that doesn't mean I can't get a 500k maelstrom score, that's my own fualt for not caring enough to make a redguard. .

this isnt imbalance, it's pkayer choice. Nothing I choose to do or not do to make a stronger char affects balance.

Junkogen

Whatzituyah wrote: »

xblackroxe wrote: »

Whatzituyah wrote: »

@xblackroxe I understand that people say this but I personally want to see the leaderboard and end game being more about skill than it does "How much damage can I squeeze out of this race?" if you get what I mean. Again its my opinion and I already switched my stanima Dragon Knight from an Argonian to a Wood Elf. That Argonian Dragon Knight I barely started anyway remade it into a Wood Elf even though it doesn't sound cool to me.

@xxslam48xxb14_ESO Your right thats the whole reason we wanted race change I just don't want races with certain class combinations to be extinct.

See well that is exactly where we are disagreeing. It takes skill to be on the leaderboards. Really much of it. And I´m talking about vSO, vMOL and vMA. And that takes skill to be on top. I don´t know what you understand under skill though.

Races won´t go extinct that game is mostly casual players that play for the sake of playing not for min/maxing.

@xblackroxe The casuals are playing just to play they come and go usually not running end game. In the other Elder Scrolls you can be a Nord Mage like @dodgehopper_ESO said and still be a good mage compared to Altmer because theirs not a big difference atleast one that mattered. That difference in ESO is noticeable end game.

Be careful about lumping casuals into one group. I'm a casual player and I care about my stats and gear. I just don't have the available free time to commit like others. That's also why I'm so for race changing. I don't have the time to grind up alts and get all the undaunted passives and mage guild books. People say it's so easy to grind, but it's actually not if you don't have all the time in the world.

Whatzituyah

Junkogen wrote: »

Whatzituyah wrote: »

xblackroxe wrote: »

Whatzituyah wrote: »

@xblackroxe I understand that people say this but I personally want to see the leaderboard and end game being more about skill than it does "How much damage can I squeeze out of this race?" if you get what I mean. Again its my opinion and I already switched my stanima Dragon Knight from an Argonian to a Wood Elf. That Argonian Dragon Knight I barely started anyway remade it into a Wood Elf even though it doesn't sound cool to me.

@xxslam48xxb14_ESO Your right thats the whole reason we wanted race change I just don't want races with certain class combinations to be extinct.

See well that is exactly where we are disagreeing. It takes skill to be on the leaderboards. Really much of it. And I´m talking about vSO, vMOL and vMA. And that takes skill to be on top. I don´t know what you understand under skill though.

Races won´t go extinct that game is mostly casual players that play for the sake of playing not for min/maxing.

@xblackroxe The casuals are playing just to play they come and go usually not running end game. In the other Elder Scrolls you can be a Nord Mage like @dodgehopper_ESO said and still be a good mage compared to Altmer because theirs not a big difference atleast one that mattered. That difference in ESO is noticeable end game.

Be careful about lumping casuals into one group. I'm a casual player and I care about my stats and gear. I just don't have the available free time to commit like others. That's also why I'm so for race changing. I don't have the time to grind up alts and get all the undaunted passives and mage guild books. People say it's so easy to grind, but it's actually not if you don't have all the time in the world.

@Junkogen I wasn't the one who brought the casuals up that was the guy I was talking to however you are right people don't have all the time in the world. I wasn't trying to lump you all in one group thats what casuals are they come, play, and go do something else whether it would be important or not in fact thats a healthier life style. They could be more casual friendly with how Elder Scrolls Online is setup like the mages guild, skyshards, and horse training but those are different topics.

Sharakor

oh wow someone with an opinion

Whatzituyah

Sharakor wrote: »

oh wow someone with an opinion

@Shrarakor yup I am not one of those people who say "This is just wrong end of story!" nope I actually know everyone has an opinion but some bother me like "This race is better than this race!" this is just a topic to discuss that. Speaking of which what do you add?

holosoul

I wouldn't mind if the game was actually elder scrolls and simply didn't have classes. I think it would be really interesting. The fact that you classified MMO as a genre instead of "MMORPG" is also telling of the current trend in MMOs. I think of MMO to mean any game where all players share the same persistent world, and with no other criteria whatsoever. RPG as a genre has many meanings, most people associate it with some narrow minded things much like how MOBA and DOTA have become synonyms in a similarly pathetic fashion. Again I feel the RPG is classified as any game where you are playing a specific character, although this is likely too broad a definition as games like borderlands do in fact fall into this classification, but counter-strike does not because there is no character identity.

I'll be careful to note here, that I do not classify borderlands as an RPG because borderlands has levels, it is because you play as exactly 1 identity and you can't change your character model or name and so forth every round or rejoin. If borderlands had no levels and no talents and no "CP" in other words, I would still have called it an RPG in this instance.

That's enough of a rant about meta-genre classifications and the fragility of human psychology and familiarity though.

OP, I totally agree with you. ESO should be based on elder scrolls, not world of warcrap.

SlayerTheDragon

@Whatzituyah I agree with you completely. The day they fix the racials is the day this becomes a proper MMO.

If your Argonian has 35k magicka, my Breton will have 38 500 magicka. As long as this stands the game is BROKEN.

jircris11

Not just ESO but all mmos

Van_0S

OP,
You have 4 options in any class.
Melee DPS, rang DPS, healer and tank.

For PvP magicka Melee DPS,
to me bosmer is the best race as a melee magicka fighter( especially as a NB and Templar ) because you have to dodgeroll and block alot. I have also killed players under stealth with my RD and Toppling charge( as a templar).

So, ultimately race matters of what you want or how your play style is..

clv

you can swap a *** car for a bugatti and still not be able to drive well

player skill > racial choice in all but end of endgame.

don't like the fact that a dunmer dk pulls 10k more than your altmer dk? fix up your rotation. stop using "muh racial choice shouldn't matter hurr" as a scapegoat to a lower degree of skill.

SlayerTheDragon

clv wrote: »

you can swap a *** car for a bugatti and still not be able to drive well

player skill > racial choice in all but end of endgame.

NO. just no.

Player A will perform better with a magicka Breton, than Player A will perform with a magicka Nord.

Gulkrim-mur

Whatzituyah wrote: »

Well heres the part where the criticism when this was still 1.0 version to somewhere around 1.5 version kicks in. When I first heard of this criticism I ignored it but people told me "This game doesn't know if it wants to be an MMO or Elder Scrolls." to an extent they are right but how is this relevant? In the other single player Elder Scrolls games you could practically be anything you want and races just made a slight difference in those games. ESO however does not, your race determines how strong you would be in the end game with damage dependent on resources rather than being slight differences.

This is a great concept that resources determine damage but not to much an extreme because of racials. My suggestion is to change all the percents in general into flat numbers where it works while making the races who have the highest/lowest percent still the highest/lowest. I would put examples up for every class who has a percent but it would require math I don't want to calculate at the moment.

This thread is basically a rewrite of my last thread that had negativity in my posts. Moderators if anything lock that thread and let this one remain but of course lock this if it gets too TOS unfriendly. Posters I only have one rule to this thread no references to the previous threads negative comments please. Last thing forgive my grammar and me.

Basically what I am trying to say in this thread is the current system encourages being certain races for certain characters for end game content.

It absolutely does but not everyone takes that serious top potential approach. My fiance plays a mag-stam highbred orc dk. Heavy n two hand. Also has invested hp. She doesn't pvp jus campaign n missions and such. Happy and successful

clv

SlayerTheDragon wrote: »

clv wrote: »

you can swap a *** car for a bugatti and still not be able to drive well

player skill > racial choice in all but end of endgame.

NO. just no.

you disagree that player skill is much more than the bonuses a racial passive can provide? keep in mind i said all but end of endgame. nobody cares if you pull what, 2k less dps than a different race in any vet dungeon, nor even vso- it's a mechanics trial, and no racial bonus makes up for skill xox

phobossion

Are certain race/class/role combos marginally more powerful than others? Yes. Do you need to be a certain race to complete about any content in the game? No.

It makes sense to see more Altmer mages and Khajit thieves in the lore and the racials facilitate that. Nothing wrong with that, much better than having a homogeneous blob of races that differ only in appearance!

greylox

Not very rpg if everyone's got the same gear, race and skill rotations, might as well play fps. Racials certainly shouldn't be a deciding factor but unfortunately seem to be to a degree. I try my hardest to play different builds ....must resist conforming...

Duiwel

That's funny OP because:

Oblivion:

Atlmer / High Elf

Argonian

Breton

Dunmer / Dark Elf

Imperial

Khajiit

Nord

Orc

Redguard

Wood Elf/Bosmer

Skyrim

Altmer /high Elf
Argonian
Breton

Dunmer/ Dark Elf

Imperial

Khajiit

Nord

Orc

Woord Elf/ Bosmer

Redguard

xblackroxe

greylox wrote: »

Not very rpg if everyone's got the same gear, race and skill rotations, might as well play fps. Racials certainly shouldn't be a deciding factor but unfortunately seem to be to a degree. I try my hardest to play different builds ....must resist conforming...

Well if thats not rpg then I'm glad it is that way. Would you really like it where nothing matter? Put on whatever gear, cp, skills an still do the same damage? That would be so boring imo.

So first of all not everybody runs the same. The reason why many people run the same stuff is because its the best. You can't change that. Bring back softcaps, hardcaps, whatevercaps. Won't change the fact that there will always be a best choice for something. And that also count for skyrim, oblivion or any other game where you can modify your character.
Racials aren't the problem. Idiots kicking you for them and bad players that think they are only worse because the game hates their choice of race are.

holosoul

xblackroxe wrote: »

greylox wrote: »

Not very rpg if everyone's got the same gear, race and skill rotations, might as well play fps. Racials certainly shouldn't be a deciding factor but unfortunately seem to be to a degree. I try my hardest to play different builds ....must resist conforming...

Well if thats not rpg then I'm glad it is that way. Would you really like it where nothing matter? Put on whatever gear, cp, skills an still do the same damage? That would be so boring imo.

So first of all not everybody runs the same. The reason why many people run the same stuff is because its the best. You can't change that. Bring back softcaps, hardcaps, whatevercaps. Won't change the fact that there will always be a best choice for something. And that also count for skyrim, oblivion or any other game where you can modify your character.
Racials aren't the problem. Idiots kicking you for them and bad players that think they are only worse because the game hates their choice of race are.

ya, racist raid leaders are the problem
we should teach them not to ***

edit: wow the word for the act of non consensual sex is itself considered profane?
how on earth shall my imperial sorcerer ever file a police report when the bad NB touches me!

Martinus72

To make race choice completely meaningless because someone wants to play Nord Mage? Oh please no, they've done that in WoW and it would be just another step of dumbing down the game...

Silver_Strider

The thing about MMOs is that they need to be BALANCED.

It doesn't matter if you can complete everything in the game with any race, that isn't the issue. The issue is when several races are under performing/over performing that it really hurts the game as a whole. The under performing races start getting more and more cut off from end game content groups because they want to more competitive and start removing the weaker links of their chain with equally skilled but better performing races for the sheer sake of being mildly more competitive, which really isn't right for any game to do, even if it is more the fault of the players than the game itself. The game is however encouraging this behavior by making the distinctions between races as large as it currently is.

If there was ANY method available in game to manage the discrepancy between races to a point that racial decisions weren't a huge factor, the game would be better off for it but since there currently isn't such a way, the game is an imbalanced mess as far as MMOs are concerned.

holosoul

If it wasn't one thing it would be another
if stats didn't matter then a passive that made potions better might suddenly be a significant increase compared to other passives

based on the design of the game, all options should be available at all times, but difficult/tedious to switch
therefor, creative strategy and depth can emerge

holosoul

having the most effective items and skills is the natural mindset of victory
you can call it "min/maxing" if you will, but what kind of player would consciously choose to do their job less effectively?
not a winner

Destruent

I'm sure ZOS can balance races a bit better compared to it's current state. But i've seen people with bad races healing/dpsing/tanking a lot better than others in competitive groups. There are Woodelf (and other races) Healers and magicka-DDs who are better than 99%+ of Eso's players. As long as player skill >>>>>>racial choice it's not that bad at all.

holosoul

Destruent wrote: »

I'm sure ZOS can balance races a bit better compared to it's current state. But i've seen people with bad races healing/dpsing/tanking a lot better than others in competitive groups. There are Woodelf (and other races) Healers and magicka-DDs who are better than 99%+ of Eso's players. As long as player skill >>>>>>racial choice it's not that bad at all.

ok on the real, let's talk about sorc for a second because I don't play other classes enough

at least as far as sorc pve dps is concerned, the skill cap for our dps is so incredibly low that I would say any average player can achieve 90 - 95% of the theoretical maximum just by slotting the correct abilities with a template gear set they can find on the internet if they are at all inclined.

being that the rotation is so simple minded a macro could execute it, minus just pressing frag every once in a while, you can't really say that "99%" of players who give a crap are not affected. only a very small minority wouldn't be lower in dps only because of their race. I honestly believe that. It's just too easy.

This is kind of a moot point because of race change in update 11 though, so anyone who really wants their ideal dps can have it. So if they want 5k more magicka because it will upgrade the most stale and easy dps rotation in the game by a solid 3 - 5%, they can have it.

xblackroxe

holosoul wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

I'm sure ZOS can balance races a bit better compared to it's current state. But i've seen people with bad races healing/dpsing/tanking a lot better than others in competitive groups. There are Woodelf (and other races) Healers and magicka-DDs who are better than 99%+ of Eso's players. As long as player skill >>>>>>racial choice it's not that bad at all.

ok on the real, let's talk about sorc for a second because I don't play other classes enough

at least as far as sorc pve dps is concerned, the skill cap for our dps is so incredibly low that I would say any average player can achieve 90 - 95% of the theoretical maximum just by slotting the correct abilities with a template gear set they can find on the internet if they are at all inclined.

being that the rotation is so simple minded a macro could execute it, minus just pressing frag every once in a while, you can't really say that "99%" of players who give a crap are not affected. only a very small minority wouldn't be lower in dps only because of their race. I honestly believe that. It's just too easy.

This is kind of a moot point because of race change in update 11 though, so anyone who really wants their ideal dps can have it. So if they want 5k more magicka because it will upgrade the most stale and easy dps rotation in the game by a solid 3 - 5%, they can have it.

Thats not the fault of races though. Its the fault of a broken class that has nothing really to offer for pve.

Xundiin

holosoul wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

I'm sure ZOS can balance races a bit better compared to it's current state. But i've seen people with bad races healing/dpsing/tanking a lot better than others in competitive groups. There are Woodelf (and other races) Healers and magicka-DDs who are better than 99%+ of Eso's players. As long as player skill >>>>>>racial choice it's not that bad at all.

ok on the real, let's talk about sorc for a second because I don't play other classes enough

at least as far as sorc pve dps is concerned, the skill cap for our dps is so incredibly low that I would say any average player can achieve 90 - 95% of the theoretical maximum just by slotting the correct abilities with a template gear set they can find on the internet if they are at all inclined.

being that the rotation is so simple minded a macro could execute it, minus just pressing frag every once in a while, you can't really say that "99%" of players who give a crap are not affected. only a very small minority wouldn't be lower in dps only because of their race. I honestly believe that. It's just too easy.

This is kind of a moot point because of race change in update 11 though, so anyone who really wants their ideal dps can have it. So if they want 5k more magicka because it will upgrade the most stale and easy dps rotation in the game by a solid 3 - 5%, they can have it.

The DPS difference between a mag sorc Altmer and a Mag Sorc Khajiit (yes they do exist) is minor.... it's like less than 4-5%. Nothing to keep you out of world first progression.

The difference is the player, gear, and build. As for the sorc if both players are running the same build but not the same gear that will impact the DPS curve more than a race that isn't optimal. If one of the players is better (regardless how easy the rotation is skill still mattters) that will impact the DPS curve more than even gear.

Really the race witch hunt is just plain stupid. Min/Maxers will always go for every inch they can get, even if that's a gain of 1 DPS they'll do it. But this doesn't affect you.... you don't need to be at 40-50k DPS to do vet trials. Yes it helps, but it's not needed. Yes it makes the fight faster so there is less chance of something going wrong, but it's not needed.

Whatzituyah

Duiwel wrote: »

That's funny OP because:

Oblivion:

Atlmer / High Elf

Argonian

Breton

Dunmer / Dark Elf

Imperial

Khajiit

Nord

Orc

Redguard

Wood Elf/Bosmer

Skyrim

Altmer /high Elf
Argonian
Breton

Dunmer/ Dark Elf

Imperial

Khajiit

Nord

Orc

Woord Elf/ Bosmer

Redguard

I said end game! The beginning is not a good comparison.

xblackroxe wrote: »

greylox wrote: »

Not very rpg if everyone's got the same gear, race and skill rotations, might as well play fps. Racials certainly shouldn't be a deciding factor but unfortunately seem to be to a degree. I try my hardest to play different builds ....must resist conforming...

Well if thats not rpg then I'm glad it is that way. Would you really like it where nothing matter? Put on whatever gear, cp, skills an still do the same damage? That would be so boring imo.

So first of all not everybody runs the same. The reason why many people run the same stuff is because its the best. You can't change that. Bring back softcaps, hardcaps, whatevercaps. Won't change the fact that there will always be a best choice for something. And that also count for skyrim, oblivion or any other game where you can modify your character.
Racials aren't the problem. Idiots kicking you for them and bad players that think they are only worse because the game hates their choice of race are.

The whole point of this game was to be an MMORPG its not really the rpg part.

Xundiin wrote: »

holosoul wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

I'm sure ZOS can balance races a bit better compared to it's current state. But i've seen people with bad races healing/dpsing/tanking a lot better than others in competitive groups. There are Woodelf (and other races) Healers and magicka-DDs who are better than 99%+ of Eso's players. As long as player skill >>>>>>racial choice it's not that bad at all.

ok on the real, let's talk about sorc for a second because I don't play other classes enough

at least as far as sorc pve dps is concerned, the skill cap for our dps is so incredibly low that I would say any average player can achieve 90 - 95% of the theoretical maximum just by slotting the correct abilities with a template gear set they can find on the internet if they are at all inclined.

being that the rotation is so simple minded a macro could execute it, minus just pressing frag every once in a while, you can't really say that "99%" of players who give a crap are not affected. only a very small minority wouldn't be lower in dps only because of their race. I honestly believe that. It's just too easy.

This is kind of a moot point because of race change in update 11 though, so anyone who really wants their ideal dps can have it. So if they want 5k more magicka because it will upgrade the most stale and easy dps rotation in the game by a solid 3 - 5%, they can have it.

The DPS difference between a mag sorc Altmer and a Mag Sorc Khajiit (yes they do exist) is minor.... it's like less than 4-5%. Nothing to keep you out of world first progression.

The difference is the player, gear, and build. As for the sorc if both players are running the same build but not the same gear that will impact the DPS curve more than a race that isn't optimal. If one of the players is better (regardless how easy the rotation is skill still mattters) that will impact the DPS curve more than even gear.

Really the race witch hunt is just plain stupid. Min/Maxers will always go for every inch they can get, even if that's a gain of 1 DPS they'll do it. But this doesn't affect you.... you don't need to be at 40-50k DPS to do vet trials. Yes it helps, but it's not needed. Yes it makes the fight faster so there is less chance of something going wrong, but it's not needed.

Your right about this but when it comes to leaderboards it seems like it would be unfair. I think if we can't change it racial wise the leaderboard should account for the race and class some people don't have time for alts.

Edit to add that this thread just got to page two just now. If this thread dies all I ask is ZOS to consider these concerns.

Destruent

Whatzituyah wrote: »

Your right about this but when it comes to leaderboards it seems like it would be unfair. I think if we can't change it racial wise the leaderboard should account for the race and class some people don't have time for alts.

Edit to add that this thread just got to page two just now. If this thread dies all I ask is ZOS to consider these concerns.

rly....skill, gear etc >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>race

don't call your bad race if you can't make it on the leaderboards

Whatzituyah

Destruent wrote: »

Whatzituyah wrote: »

Your right about this but when it comes to leaderboards it seems like it would be unfair. I think if we can't change it racial wise the leaderboard should account for the race and class some people don't have time for alts.

Edit to add that this thread just got to page two just now. If this thread dies all I ask is ZOS to consider these concerns.

rly....skill, gear etc >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>race

don't call your bad race if you can't make it on the leaderboards

Too be honest I haven't even tried Maelstrom Arena I was making assumptions.