Cyrodiil unskilled : Melee DKs vs Radiant Destruction

EnOeZ

I will define skill in a game by the virtuous symphony of plays and counterplays.
Ultimately, at the highest level of skill, there is only mind game and ability execution speed left.

For many top PVPers, of course game balance is necessary to accomplish highest levels of skills and therefore of pleasure in a game.
To date game balance aka "Combat and character mechanics" is the underdog department of the Elder Scrolls Online despite excellent basics (block mechanic, dodge, soft targeting, sprint, crouch for example).

Threre comes the Melee DK in a XvX or 1vX, let's assume he is quite skilled...
He uses Line of Sight to get rid of rangers and sorcs, uses terrain, heal when he as room, charge, stun, control, dodge roll, root, tank... he pops scales when out of stamina, times his bursts, uses everything he can to reposition himself while dynamically re-evaluating the situation: he slows or root an annoying opponent and charge another, etc... Well he tries to out-play 1 to 3+ players ALL THE TIME in Cyrodiil, since he is melee and gets all the heat each time.

No the skilled player does not play in Zergs since Zergs does not use skill: no skill=no pleasure for him.

And there comes the Cyrodiil Templar !
His skill ? Only one, made of the push of a single button: the "Jesus Beam" Radiant Destruction!
Features?

Max range execute! MAX RANGE!

• Super Mega Safe at 28m and beyond!
• Ultimate-like damage!
• Spammable!
• From 50% on (50% !!)
• Does not break on dodge! => easy mode
• Does not stop with Line of Sight! => easy mode
• Does not care about roots and slows => easy mode
• Standard cost!

Let's compare it to the DK execute...
Oh well, since there is no execute for DK, let's use reverse slash and morphs:

• Melee Range
• Super Unsafe (need to be in the heat) => high risk, high reward => skill
• Vulnerable to dodge => counterplay = > skill
• Vulnerable to Line of Sight => counterplay = > skill
• Vulnerable to roots and slows => skill

Balanced ?

Back to Cyrodiil...
Then the skilled DKs is despite the odds holding his ground and comes the Templar.
WITHOUT ANY CONSIDERATION about the DK"s Health, insta Jesus Beam from 28m away or more...
Stupid move? It should, but not with the current design. As a consequence the DK is playing effectively with 50% of his health!
A 30K Health DK becomes a 15K Health one since dropping below that threshold means death with the beam on. Why ?

• No insta-heal available (Dragon Blood is still inefficient in Cyrodiil despite tens of threads, it is an abandonned ability for now)
• Vigor is nice but is not instant, same for Rally and morphs (despite the final heal which is not spammable, contrary to Radiant Destruction)
• No insta CC, despite Fossilize only 15 meters (vs 28 meters Jesus Beam)
• No insta CC either despite Stonefist because the projectile is too slow
• Grip is as unrialable as always.
• 2H charge does not stun (two GCD+travel time is too slow)
• Invasion form SB could work (if not rooted in melee range (...) but there is still travel time)
• Inhale could work but only 8m vs 28+

=> Radiant Destruction has no realistic counter-play for Melee DKs in Cyrodiil.

What do we need ?

On Templar side:

• Much higher cost of Radiant Destruction, increasing with recasts
• Needs to break with Line of Sight
• Needs to break with Dodge
• Reduce range (8m ideally, 15m to be fossilize-able, 22m to be Invasion-able to the very minimum)
• Considered a projectile (reflectable) => counterplay = skill= pleasure

On DK side:

• 2H Charge needs to free from roots
• Take Flight needs to free from roots (only ultimate that is counterable that way (and by lag))
• Stone Fist needs to travel faster
• Replace "Elder Dragon" (close to useless) by a defensive feature like resistance to executes (similar to Vampire undeath) and or channels.

On mechanics side

• Channels need to insta break with Line of Sight and dodge rolls => plays and counter plays => skill = > pleasure

Otherwise I do agree Templars, apart from that skill, are far from being as terrifying as OP Nightblades (Outstanding burst, ultra superior mobility, survivability and sustain, best passives in game and synergies, best DLCs with 3 out of 4 favoring them, new skill lines fitting the playstyle, many one "ability wonders" that pack everything with outstanding damage, excellent ultimate generation mechanics, Premium ultimates), but that is another story...

Of course, in 1v1 RD is manageable but I believe the Strength of Radiant Destruction overshadows the weakness of the class in mass PVP and that where it can be casted with absolutely no skill for max results (thats why so many do it) and it will be virtuous for the game and the class to redesign it.

Cronopoly

I understand your argument, even feel your pain. However it's not the most pressing thing as Gap closing Flying DK's are steamrolling PVP now in a kills ratio. And we don't see nowhere near as many Jesus Beam kills as there used to be. Sure they exist even with all the mechanics you mentioned, but nowhere near the impact of all the Stam DK's in everyones's face shooting poison with great symmetry to passives getting multiple kills against other classes.

Also are you also asking for DK's to get nerfed as well, please write that up while you are making suggestions...

EnOeZ

jwilkins66ub17_ESO wrote: »

I understand your argument, even feel your pain. However it's not the most pressing thing as Gap closing Flying DK's are steamrolling PVP now in a kills ratio. And we don't see nowhere near as many Jesus Beam kills as there used to be. Sure they exist even with all the mechanics you mentioned, but nowhere near the impact of all the Stam DK's in everyones's face shooting poison with great symmetry to passives getting multiple kills against other classes.

Also are you also asking for DK's to get nerfed as well, please write that up while you are making suggestions...

I am not sure to read you right.
Are you talking about class abilities (exclusive) or weapon abilities (accessible to all) ?

Is there a play without counterplay concerning DK ?
If yes I support you.

As a gamer I find pleasure in skillful plays, only possible in a game where PVP balance is taken seriously.

timidobserver

It sounds like you are still trying to do the high damage, high sustain squishy 1vX master build that relies on evasion and dodge rolling to survive. Yes, Templar counter evasion dodge roll builds. This is fine with me.

Either pressure them, los, flee, or swap to a build that can deal with the tiny damage that RD does outside of execute range.

EnOeZ

timidobserver wrote: »

It sounds like you are still trying to do the high damage, high sustain squishy 1vX master build that relies on evasion and dodge rolling to survive. Yes, Templar counter evasion dodge roll builds. This is fine with me.

Either pressure them, los, flee, or swap to a build that can deal with the tiny damage that RD does outside of execute range.

You did not read and you have it 100% wrong, 7/7 HA, 30K Health, Full Impen.
However in 1vX roll-dodging is still necessary should it be only to free from roots without shuffle/forward momentum or to reposition quicker. Additionally, it does reposition you AND avoid attacks as added benefits, even in Heavy.

But of course, I understand you want your OP skill to remain OP.

timidobserver

EnOeZ wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

It sounds like you are still trying to do the high damage, high sustain squishy 1vX master build that relies on evasion and dodge rolling to survive. Yes, Templar counter evasion dodge roll builds. This is fine with me.

Either pressure them, los, flee, or swap to a build that can deal with the tiny damage that RD does outside of execute range.

You did not read and you have it 100% wrong, 7/7 HA, 30K Health, Full Impen.
However in 1vX roll-dodging is still necessary should it be only to free from roots without shuffle/forward momentum or to reposition quicker. Additionally, it does reposition you AND avoid attacks as added benefits, even in Heavy.

But of course, I understand you want your OP skill to remain OP.

RD is very strong in the lower threshold of the execute range, but you should be able to theorycraft you way out of it's non-execute range damage.

FloppyTouch

EnOeZ wrote: »

jwilkins66ub17_ESO wrote: »

I understand your argument, even feel your pain. However it's not the most pressing thing as Gap closing Flying DK's are steamrolling PVP now in a kills ratio. And we don't see nowhere near as many Jesus Beam kills as there used to be. Sure they exist even with all the mechanics you mentioned, but nowhere near the impact of all the Stam DK's in everyones's face shooting poison with great symmetry to passives getting multiple kills against other classes.

Also are you also asking for DK's to get nerfed as well, please write that up while you are making suggestions...

I am not sure to read you right.
Are you talking about class abilities (exclusive) or weapon abilities (accessible to all) ?

Is there a play without counterplay concerning DK ?
If yes I support you.

As a gamer I find pleasure in skillful plays, only possible in a game where PVP balance is taken seriously.

Duh the counter play to stam dK is RD with a Templar this post is stupid

Brutusmax1mus

You're melee dude, Bash and stop whining. If you're 1v x you're focusing templars first anyway. If you're surprised by a rd then you didn't play well enough to keep aware of your surroundings. Stam dks can kill in 3 attacks now.

Vaoh

I agree that Jesus Beam is very annoying in 1vX.

So is Breath of Life.
So are.... Magicka Templars in general.

Of course, there are natural penalties to 1vX, and this is probably the biggest one. Group support builds (aka RD+BoL Mag Temps) are very difficult to kill and provide a lot of defense for a group. Such is the playing field in which a solo player deals with.

Stam DKs.... I just don't want to see direct buffs come their way right now. They are top of the line, and arguably the very best in both PvE and PvP.

Likewise, whatever nerf comes the way of the Jesus Beam must stay away from PvE!

SienneYviete

All I see here is stam dks salty as hell as there is finally a counter to their masterclass dodge roll spec 1vX builds. Terribad back line jesus beam spammers in light armor are just as bad as the pew pew focused aim spammers I see constantly in pvp and are usually glassy as hell and die in a couple of hits.

Now the heavy armor wearing tank/healer group spec templars are the ones that will ruin your 1vX and rightly so. They have been built for a specific purpose, a direct counter to the godlike infini stam builds running rampant around cyro 1vXing the newbies all geared up for pve.

Vangy

Im a stam dk with 32k health, 30k resists,3.5k impen and 32k stam with 2.8k weapon power fully buffed. I also zerg dive for a living. Ie: Im my guilds zerg bait.... so I run into enemy groups of 10 or more and sit there locking them down with talons/caltrops etc. Then team comes in and wipes the floor with them with proxy/ult bombs.

RD even when u are at 10k life out of 30k, can just be blocked through + you can use igneous and vigor while blocking....Ive block healed through more than 5 J-beams on me once even though I was at 20-30% life haha. Granted my 30% life is about 50% of most cyro builds but still.. I personally dont have too much of a problem with it although I can see why dodge roll builds would hate it. It goes through the whole foundation of a typical stam builds defence which is dodge roll lol.

Jaybe_Mawfaka

the meta

sirrmattus

Lol. It's so funny when someone says, 'bash and l2p'. These people are the ones you never see running by themselves or with 1 or 2 other members. To me, 7-20 man groip is no fun, it's unorganized, it's just boring. Optimal group is 3-6 people. I've been saying this for a while zos should implement 8 man group caps. And yes radiant oppression needs to be 22 meters.

Turelus

sirrmattus wrote: »

Lol. It's so funny when someone says, 'bash and l2p'. These people are the ones you never see running by themselves or with 1 or 2 other members. To me, 7-20 man groip is no fun, it's unorganized, it's just boring. Optimal group is 3-6 people. I've been saying this for a while zos should implement 8 man group caps. And yes radiant oppression needs to be 22 meters.

My group of 8 follows Jim's group of 8 which is following Steve's group of 8. Now I have a group of 24 (and can do basic maths!)

ZOS have stated on ESO Live there is point in lowering the group cap because large organised guilds and groups or even random players can still just follow one another. The only way to have a hard cap on numbers is to have instanced combat areas which have to have a set number of players to start.
They said they're working on something like this.

Vangy

Bashev wrote: »

[Post Removed]

Dosent death recap display the total damage from all the ticks collectively as 1? I was under the impression it did. If that 17k damage was from 1 tick then ive got nothing to say lol. But somehow it really dosent feel all the painful when im blocking.

Bashev

Vangy wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

@Wrobel knows very well how OP radian destruction is but he doesnt have the balls to fix it because he is afraid that he will be torn apart from the templar community.

I will quote myself to show you how much exactly this skill is far superior that the others.

Bashev wrote: »

I play with 7 heavy 36k resistance buffed, 2k critical resistance. Please check the damage of this OP skill.

Dosent death recap display the total damage from all the ticks collectively as 1? I was under the impression it did. If that 17k damage was from 1 tick then ive got nothing to say lol. But somehow it really dosent feel all the painful when im blocking.

It shows all ticks as it does with soul strike ultimate. Check the damage of the ultimate, even that it has longer duration and it is ultimate it makes so much less damage than radian destruction.

You can also check the other executes. They did average 3.5k. even if they managed to hit me 3 times, I would take 11k damage. But I doubt they will manage to hit me 3 times because I can dodge or root them or stun them cause they are in my skills range.

Vangy

Bashev wrote: »

Vangy wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

@Wrobel knows very well how OP radian destruction is but he doesnt have the balls to fix it because he is afraid that he will be torn apart from the templar community.

I will quote myself to show you how much exactly this skill is far superior that the others.

Bashev wrote: »

I play with 7 heavy 36k resistance buffed, 2k critical resistance. Please check the damage of this OP skill.

Dosent death recap display the total damage from all the ticks collectively as 1? I was under the impression it did. If that 17k damage was from 1 tick then ive got nothing to say lol. But somehow it really dosent feel all the painful when im blocking.

It shows all ticks as it does with soul strike ultimate. Check the damage of the ultimate, even that it has longer duration and it is ultimate it makes so much less damage than radian destruction.

You can also check the other executes. They did average 3.5k. even if they managed to hit me 3 times, I would take 11k damage. But I doubt they will manage to hit me 3 times because I can dodge or root them or stun them cause they are in my skills range.

Hmm.. If I recall correctly RD does like damage over about 3 seconds. So if I take your last screenie; RD did a total of 17k.
17k/3 = 5.6k/s on average. Im guessing this was when u were close to death. Yeah RD is a strong execute no question. Undodgeable ray of pwnzor. I dont know if its OP though. Personally Id just like to see the range on it shortened.

Bashev

Vangy wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

Vangy wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

@Wrobel knows very well how OP radian destruction is but he doesnt have the balls to fix it because he is afraid that he will be torn apart from the templar community.

I will quote myself to show you how much exactly this skill is far superior that the others.

Bashev wrote: »

I play with 7 heavy 36k resistance buffed, 2k critical resistance. Please check the damage of this OP skill.

Dosent death recap display the total damage from all the ticks collectively as 1? I was under the impression it did. If that 17k damage was from 1 tick then ive got nothing to say lol. But somehow it really dosent feel all the painful when im blocking.

It shows all ticks as it does with soul strike ultimate. Check the damage of the ultimate, even that it has longer duration and it is ultimate it makes so much less damage than radian destruction.

You can also check the other executes. They did average 3.5k. even if they managed to hit me 3 times, I would take 11k damage. But I doubt they will manage to hit me 3 times because I can dodge or root them or stun them cause they are in my skills range.

Hmm.. If I recall correctly RD does like damage over about 3 seconds. So if I take your last screenie; RD did a total of 17k.
17k/3 = 5.6k/s on average. Im guessing this was when u were close to death. Yeah RD is a strong execute no question. Undodgeable ray of pwnzor. I dont know if its OP though. Personally Id just like to see the range on it shortened.

The main issue is the mechanic of the skill. Too noob friendly. The range should be reduced to 15m.

The damage part. I forgot to mention that I am also a vampire, and it is supposed that I have extra damage reduction at low health. The souls striker ultimate is 4 seconds and it hit me for 5.5k and 9k, which in the beset case is 2k dps per second. And this is an ultimate. That is why people say that templars have an ultimate skill (Jesus beam) always on demand.

EnOeZ

Bashev wrote: »

Vangy wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

Vangy wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

@Wrobel knows very well how OP radian destruction is but he doesnt have the balls to fix it because he is afraid that he will be torn apart from the templar community.

I will quote myself to show you how much exactly this skill is far superior that the others.

Bashev wrote: »

I play with 7 heavy 36k resistance buffed, 2k critical resistance. Please check the damage of this OP skill.

Dosent death recap display the total damage from all the ticks collectively as 1? I was under the impression it did. If that 17k damage was from 1 tick then ive got nothing to say lol. But somehow it really dosent feel all the painful when im blocking.

It shows all ticks as it does with soul strike ultimate. Check the damage of the ultimate, even that it has longer duration and it is ultimate it makes so much less damage than radian destruction.

You can also check the other executes. They did average 3.5k. even if they managed to hit me 3 times, I would take 11k damage. But I doubt they will manage to hit me 3 times because I can dodge or root them or stun them cause they are in my skills range.

Hmm.. If I recall correctly RD does like damage over about 3 seconds. So if I take your last screenie; RD did a total of 17k.
17k/3 = 5.6k/s on average. Im guessing this was when u were close to death. Yeah RD is a strong execute no question. Undodgeable ray of pwnzor. I dont know if its OP though. Personally Id just like to see the range on it shortened.

The main issue is the mechanic of the skill. Too noob friendly. The range should be reduced to 15m.

The damage part. I forgot to mention that I am also a vampire, and it is supposed that I have extra damage reduction at low health. The souls striker ultimate is 4 seconds and it hit me for 5.5k and 9k, which in the beset case is 2k dps per second. And this is an ultimate. That is why people say that templars have an ultimate skill (Jesus beam) always on demand.

That's the point!

The fact is I am more afraid of Jesus Beam (a cheap spammable ability) than I am of most "other" Ultimates like Take Flight, Nova, Shooting Star/Meteor...

Because, yes I agree with you, it really feels like a spammable ultimate.

Birdovic

A ) Reduce RD Range to 20m
B ) Increase Soul Strike (both Morphs) Damage by about 10%, so it actually Feels like an Ultimate
and (optional)
C ) Let The Oblivioms Foe Set affect The Ult, too

EnOeZ

timidobserver wrote: »

EnOeZ wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

It sounds like you are still trying to do the high damage, high sustain squishy 1vX master build that relies on evasion and dodge rolling to survive. Yes, Templar counter evasion dodge roll builds. This is fine with me.

Either pressure them, los, flee, or swap to a build that can deal with the tiny damage that RD does outside of execute range.

You did not read and you have it 100% wrong, 7/7 HA, 30K Health, Full Impen.
However in 1vX roll-dodging is still necessary should it be only to free from roots without shuffle/forward momentum or to reposition quicker. Additionally, it does reposition you AND avoid attacks as added benefits, even in Heavy.

But of course, I understand you want your OP skill to remain OP.

RD is very strong in the lower threshold of the execute range, but you should be able to theorycraft you way out of it's non-execute range damage.

The issue is the range!
For that much power in one skill, I should be able to counter that (or those) 28m perma casters.
... but as Stam DK, what I tried to demonstrate, I have no real option AT ALL.

- no burst heal
- no defensive game mechanic (like reflect or dodge roll)
- no range to get to it (charge is 22m, RD is 28m)
- the options that could have range require 2 to 3 GCDs (too slow) or an ultimate aka Take Flight (but flying 28m leaves time for a full RD cast)

... but you are right, as I wrote in the initial post: "theorycraft you way out of it's non-execute range damage" => means to me play with 50% life as melee brawler

Docmandu

Jaybe_Mawfaka wrote: »

the meta

I'm sure you can post just as many screenshots where it's all snipes..

WillhelmBlack

Don't see any difference with Snipes.

mistermutiny89

Your constant 20% dodge chance feels like 80%, and your wings reflect nearly everything else forcing us to use the very broken toppling charge and puncturing sweeps which has bugger all range and is easy to get the flank on us.

Go on a wrecking blow spam fest and we won't have the stamina to break free after the third stun. Problem solved.

Tormy

RD is op when it's getting spammed on you by multiple people, but so is everything other skill. Its not that bad, until you're in execute range then it's RIP

Rohaus

@EnOeZ

GD! OP, you nailed it on the head!!! I too am a melee DK... I despise and loathe Templars that are using Radiant Destruction riding the waves of their zerg.

Scenario:

When outnumbered against AD... you will see the following:

1. 3+ Templars immediately spamming radiant on you
2. Siege dropped even when it is 20+ versus 1 to 2

ZOS_AlanG

Some posts were removed from this thread. It's perfectly acceptable to be critical, but it's important that criticism be kept civil and constructive. More specifically, bashing developers is not acceptable, as explained in the forum rules.

Silver_Strider

RD is the reason I run Venom Arrow over Poison injection in PvP.
Well, that and to stop people from rezzing.

Armitas

Yeah pretty much walking around with 50% of my health bar being pointless. Especially since I need to be at 20% of my health just to get back up to 50% health with dragon blood which immediatly drops back down because RD is painted on me 100% of the time.

Xexpo

Radiant Destruction is the least of Cyrodiil's problems atm.
Besides I am seeing players eat all the ticks of RD even in execute range... it's not some automatic death sentence

EnOeZ

mistermutiny89 wrote: »

Your constant 20% dodge chance feels like 80%, and your wings reflect nearly everything else forcing us to use the very broken toppling charge and puncturing sweeps which has bugger all range and is easy to get the flank on us.

Go on a wrecking blow spam fest and we won't have the stamina to break free after the third stun. Problem solved.

Once again, RD is ok in a 1v1 scenario, but not in Cyrodiil where it leaves some melee classes without ANY possible response in the 22-28m (+Cyrodiil distance buffs).

That is the issue !

Concerning WB, another powerful ability, landing it is not as easy as Radiant Destruction point and click and requires you to go in the heat, not cast from the roof of a castle or outpost.

Additionally, there is no risk, no cost and no skill involved in RD (outside of 1V1):

• no setup,
• an easy to meet condition,
• an abusive bypass of chore defense mechanisms (dodgeproof and Line of Sight)

for so much spammable ultimate-like damage from that far !