Coupling Species - Lore breaking?

dtm_samuraib16_ESO

Well, then we have it right there, it's impossible.
Everyone hates the cat, and thus sex with one is unthinkable.

Now that we have sorted this out: lizzies, or: how would sex with eggs work?

Xundiin

Taisynn wrote: »

@Ethromelb14_ESO

Watch this video; it explains a lot about half-breeds in ESO, including unions with Argonians.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UucMG2N9A6k

Um, where did he get his information? There is no difinitive yes or no about khajiit and argonians being able to or not mate with other races. The only thing that's mentioned in any lore is a book that says basically, I don't think it can happen, but there have been reports of it happening, just no definitive proof of it happening.

This tells me that it may or may not be possible, not that it can't happen. Also, that half orc they even mentioned was more orc than man and the pale skin was more than likely because he was a vampire.

Shunravi

Taisynn wrote: »

@Ethromelb14_ESO

Watch this video; it explains a lot about half-breeds in ESO, including unions with Argonians.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UucMG2N9A6k

Shoddycast....

dtm_samuraib16_ESO wrote: »

Well, then we have it right there, it's impossible.
Everyone hates the cat, and thus sex with one is unthinkable.

Well, not unthinkable. But it does involve certain aspects of feline anatomy. I believe moon sugar is so important to khajiit because of potential anesthetic properties...

(Go to part 3 and be sure the link specifies daggerfall) http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Real_Barenziah_(Daggerfall)

Elebeth

Xundiin wrote: »

Taisynn wrote: »

@Ethromelb14_ESO

Watch this video; it explains a lot about half-breeds in ESO, including unions with Argonians.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UucMG2N9A6k

Um, where did he get his information? There is no difinitive yes or no about khajiit and argonians being able to or not mate with other races. The only thing that's mentioned in any lore is a book that says basically, I don't think it can happen, but there have been reports of it happening, just no definitive proof of it happening.

This tells me that it may or may not be possible, not that it can't happen. Also, that half orc they even mentioned was more orc than man and the pale skin was more than likely because he was a vampire.

Shunravi wrote: »

Shoddycast....

^

7 minutes of cringe with no info to enrich our debate

dtm_samuraib16_ESO

Xundiin wrote: »

There is no difinitive yes or no about khajiit and argonians being able to or not mate with other races. The only thing that's mentioned in any lore is a book that says basically, I don't think it can happen, but there have been reports of it happening, just no definitive proof of it happening.

And this again, is basically proof, it is not possible.
If it was, it WOULD have been documented.
Or said so by the author, in one way or another.

Shunravi wrote: »

dtm_samuraib16_ESO wrote: »

Well, then we have it right there, it's impossible.
Everyone hates the cat, and thus sex with one is unthinkable.

Well, not unthinkable. But it does involved certain aspects of feline anatomy. I believe moon sugar is so important to khajiit because of potential anesthetic properties...

Actually impossible, if even the cat hates the cat, NO one would be sane enough... no, wait, INsane enough to risk his life, that of his family, and whatnot, just to have a fetish being completed.

It would be like telling a Muslim, that his god andsoforth, in those days.

Shunravi

dtm_samuraib16_ESO wrote: »

Shunravi wrote: »

dtm_samuraib16_ESO wrote: »

Well, then we have it right there, it's impossible.
Everyone hates the cat, and thus sex with one is unthinkable.

Well, not unthinkable. But it does involved certain aspects of feline anatomy. I believe moon sugar is so important to khajiit because of potential anesthetic properties...

Actually impossible, if even the cat hates the cat, NO one would be sane enough... no, wait, INsane enough to risk his life, that of his family, and whatnot, just to have a fetish being completed.

It would be like telling a Muslim, that his god andsoforth, in those days.

Now look at a size comparison between an alfiq and senche-rhat.

dtm_samuraib16_ESO

What I meant is, the comparison with religion as per what i said.
Being around a cat could basically (hyperbole) get you on the fire pit, turning you into a nice barbecue.

Shunravi

dtm_samuraib16_ESO wrote: »

What I meant is, the comparison with religion as per what i said.
Being around a cat could basically (hyperbole) get you on the fire pit, turning you into a nice barbecue.

I got what you were saying. But was continuing on the other tangent. There is a general distrust and shunning of the khajiit in tamriel. Much like the gypsies.

dtm_samuraib16_ESO

Yes, and just this would make people think twice before starting a relationship with one.

If not due to society brainwashing.

ContraTempo

Ethromelb14_ESO wrote: »

Every so often I come across a character that claims they've made a union with a very unlikely species type. Couples like a Dark Elf woman married to an Argonian Male. I then start to wonder ... what would their kids look like? I figure if ZoS is going to include such character types in the game, then they should allow us the player to make these types of characters. Make it so we can make a khajiit/Dark Elf mixed character, imagining that our parents were exactly that. Otherwise it would be better to not include in the world these fantastical couple combinations ... Just my opinion.

What means of reproduction the species of Tamriel use in the time of ESO is totally unknown. Clearly they have neither sex nor children. Since we don't know how it works, we can't effectively speculate on what is or is not possible.

There are some mentions of children from the past, such as in the Ghratwood quest "The Unquiet Dead". By the time of Skyrim children exist but we don't see any proof that sex exists (unless you have on of the mods that includes that)

dtm_samuraib16_ESO

ContraTempo wrote: »

Ethromelb14_ESO wrote: »

Every so often I come across a character that claims they've made a union with a very unlikely species type. Couples like a Dark Elf woman married to an Argonian Male. I then start to wonder ... what would their kids look like? I figure if ZoS is going to include such character types in the game, then they should allow us the player to make these types of characters. Make it so we can make a khajiit/Dark Elf mixed character, imagining that our parents were exactly that. Otherwise it would be better to not include in the world these fantastical couple combinations ... Just my opinion.

What means of reproduction the species of Tamriel use in the time of ESO is totally unknown. Clearly they have neither sex nor children. Since we don't know how it works, we can't effectively speculate on what is or is not possible.

There are some mentions of children from the past, such as in the Ghratwood quest "The Unquiet Dead". By the time of Skyrim children exist but we don't see any proof that sex exists (unless you have on of the mods that includes that)

OMG, they're... VAMPIRES...
Well, the WW obviously are not, but..

On the other hand... why have females breasts, if they have no children?
My gods, what were you thinking....

dtm_samuraib16_ESO

OK, enough with the debate.
Let's revert to ... SCIENCE.
I have a good looking Khajiit, who wants to try and have offspring with me?

And have this discussion over with!

PS, no lizards, please, i need to keep my image somewhat clean. XD

dtm_samuraib16_ESO

And maybe some fun along the line. LOL

Xundiin

dtm_samuraib16_ESO wrote: »

Xundiin wrote: »

There is no difinitive yes or no about khajiit and argonians being able to or not mate with other races. The only thing that's mentioned in any lore is a book that says basically, I don't think it can happen, but there have been reports of it happening, just no definitive proof of it happening.

And this again, is basically proof, it is not possible.
If it was, it WOULD have been documented.
Or said so by the author, in one way or another.

/sigh

lack of proof doesn't make it fact. It's even states that the author suspects the anatomies to be different. Not proof of the anatomies to be different. He doesn't even know. This isn't fact. Every thing about the copulation between beast races and mer/men is speculative at best and comes down to what each individual believes or doesn't believe is the case. Until Bethesda officially comes out and says "No Khajiit and Argonians race/species mixing", Every thing is subjective.

Also, Research would have been done if someone was interested in the subject, this is like the "proof" that black people can't see at night so they where restricted to cooks and other service type jobs in the military in WW II. Yes there are exceptions, but there where also a lot of false info to push an agenda. And in Tamriel, Khajiit are the black sheep, social pariah's, the unwanted but tolerated race of Nirn.

dtm_samuraib16_ESO

Well, with all due respect, to me it is a no, seeing there is no proof about this, until a deity at ZoS says otherwise.

On a side note: I'd LOVE to play say a scaled Breton with snake eyes.
Now THAT would be a sight!!!

Unfortunately, I have to kill my own dream, due to the lack of proof.

Ethromelb14_ESO

Taisynn wrote: »

@Ethromelb14_ESO

Watch this video; it explains a lot about half-breeds in ESO, including unions with Argonians.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UucMG2N9A6k

Thanks ... This was a cool video.

Gidorick

This topic comes up pretty often. I'll do my standard. "Yes... I wish ZOS would let us create mixed races"

I find it funny how these threads always have more discussion on them then my thread which includes examples of not only how it could work but visual examples of what they MIGHT look like... Maybe it's because my concept is definitive and not speculative. hmm. oh well. Here's the link!

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/153977/eso-character-offspring-hybrid-races-concept/p1

Gidorick

Taisynn wrote: »

@Ethromelb14_ESO

Watch this video; it explains a lot about half-breeds in ESO, including unions with Argonians.

*removed video link*

Eh... that video just regurgitates what the lorebooks says @Taisynn, but ignores that there have been some reports of half khajiit characters.

dtm_samuraib16_ESO

Gidorick wrote: »

some reports of half khajiit characters.

Hearsay, unproven, fantasy.
Does not count.

Gidorick

dtm_samuraib16_ESO wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

some reports of half khajiit characters.

Hearsay, unproven, fantasy.
Does not count.

It's enough to justify them existing though @dtm_samuraib16_ESO .

And as I've suggested before (shameless promotion: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/153977/eso-character-offspring-hybrid-races-concept/p1 ) if these half-breeds are infertile it would make sense that we wouldn't see many of them.... and why they are mostly just rumors.

Of course... I tend to think the "khjaiit half breed" is more than likely just another furstock... like the Ohmes-Raht.

dtm_samuraib16_ESO

Love to see a scale Breton, or something like that.
Or a hairy Lizard!!! LMAO

Xundiin

Gidorick wrote: »

dtm_samuraib16_ESO wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

some reports of half khajiit characters.

Hearsay, unproven, fantasy.
Does not count.

It's enough to justify them existing though @dtm_samuraib16_ESO .

And as I've suggested before (shameless promotion: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/153977/eso-character-offspring-hybrid-races-concept/p1 ) if these half-breeds are infertile it would make sense that we wouldn't see many of them.... and why they are mostly just rumors.

Of course... I tend to think the "khjaiit half breed" is more than likely just another furstock... like the Ohmes-Raht.

I'm partial to the Dagi-Raht myself.

Gidorick

dtm_samuraib16_ESO wrote:

Love to see a scale Breton, or something like that.
Or a hairy Lizard!!! LMAO

Will you settle for a Lizard with hair @dtm_samuraib16_ESO ?

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/153977/eso-character-offspring-hybrid-races-concept/p1

WhiteCoatSyndrome

Four pages of people claiming Argonians can't crossbreed with the other races and NO ONE came in to refute that yet?

Let me fix that. What you need to do is:

1.) Open up the UESP wiki
2.) Click in the search bar
3.) Type in 'Sheen-In-Glade'
4.) Locate the document 'Fall of Vitharn'
5.) Read it carefully.

Alternatively, fire up Shivering Isles and hunt it down there.

I'll be here when you get back.

C0wrex

Heh.... Lusty Argonian Maids..



Nuff' said!

Gidorick

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

Four pages of people claiming Argonians can't crossbreed with the other races and NO ONE came in to refute that yet?

Let me fix that. What you need to do is:

1.) Open up the UESP wiki
2.) Click in the search bar
3.) Type in 'Sheen-In-Glade'
4.) Locate the document 'Fall of Vitharn'
5.) Read it carefully.

Alternatively, fire up Shivering Isles and hunt it down there.

I'll be here when you get back.

All the times this argument has been had on this forum and I've never seen this. Thanks @WhiteCoatSyndrome !

Lore confirmed!

Count Cirion is an Altmer noble whos grandfather was Csaran... so we can assume Csaran was also Altmer and

"Csaran was obsessively nepotistic, and distrustful of anyone with whom he shared no blood relation including his bride. Though Sheen-in-Glade bore a son by the Count (who disappeared from the Isles in his twentieth year)..."

"... the marriage of Csaran to Sheen-in-Glade, daughter of an Argonian midwife who believed that the mortal sphere would afford her daughter nothing but hatred and oppression."

Altmer and Argonian pairing.

Dude... much respect and by the DIVINES do I love the lore of this game.

ContraTempo

dtm_samuraib16_ESO wrote: »

ContraTempo wrote: »

Ethromelb14_ESO wrote: »

Every so often I come across a character that claims they've made a union with a very unlikely species type. Couples like a Dark Elf woman married to an Argonian Male. I then start to wonder ... what would their kids look like? I figure if ZoS is going to include such character types in the game, then they should allow us the player to make these types of characters. Make it so we can make a khajiit/Dark Elf mixed character, imagining that our parents were exactly that. Otherwise it would be better to not include in the world these fantastical couple combinations ... Just my opinion.

What means of reproduction the species of Tamriel use in the time of ESO is totally unknown. Clearly they have neither sex nor children. Since we don't know how it works, we can't effectively speculate on what is or is not possible.

There are some mentions of children from the past, such as in the Ghratwood quest "The Unquiet Dead". By the time of Skyrim children exist but we don't see any proof that sex exists (unless you have on of the mods that includes that)

OMG, they're... VAMPIRES...
Well, the WW obviously are not, but..

On the other hand... why have females breasts, if they have no children?
My gods, what were you thinking....

You are making assumptions about these species because they are similar to us in appearance. However, back in March a rare incident caused multiple wardrobe malfunctions across Tamriel and gave us a rare look at nude citizens of Tamriel. As you can see, they lack *** [edit: OMG, they censored the N word!] necessary to nurse young. Which makes sense given that there are no children. One possibility is that the "breasts" may serve a similar function to the humps on a camel's back. However, why such humps are limited to a subset of the population is unknown. If we refer to that subset as "female" we do so only for convenience sake, not because they have the necessary attributes of actual females.




In addition, the mass wardrobe malfunction also allowed us to confirm that they have no genitalia:

Clearly sexual reproduction as we know it is not a possibility.

Normally the residents of Tamriel have an extreme taboo against nudity and are never seen nude, even in the most private of settings. However, during this mass event they ignored their own nudity or were simply unaware of it. I would guess there is some deep mystery behind these seemingly contradictory behaviors.

Taisynn

Gidorick wrote: »

Taisynn wrote: »

@Ethromelb14_ESO

Watch this video; it explains a lot about half-breeds in ESO, including unions with Argonians.

*removed video link*

Eh... that video just regurgitates what the lorebooks says @Taisynn, but ignores that there have been some reports of half khajiit characters.

@Gidorick However, to me it explained it all for Argonians; if the hist WANTED them to be able to breed with another species, it could change their bodies to allow it. That's what roleplayers have used that lore for.

Enodoc

I felt like dropping my own views in here. Generally - yes. Coupling between races is possible.

When it comes to "Half-elves", which seems to be the criss-cross discussion between @Xundiin and @Elebeth, I think it depends on your definition. The offspring of an Altmer mother and Imperial father would be genetically half Altmer and half Imperial, but would be physically/culturally/legally considered an Altmer.

When it comes to Bretons, there's no argument that they are the result of extended man-mer procreation between the Ayleids and the Nedes. So the argument is whether they should be considered "100% men" one of the "races of Men" or something else. The primary source for this would be the sentence in PGE1 stating "the "Manmeri" beyond the Reach were, in fact, descended from human slaves taken during the Elven destruction of Saarthal." That means that the original ancestry of the Bretons is man, not mer. Because of that, and considering the offspring generally bears the racial traits of the mother with only "traces" of the father's race, there can be no racial half-and-half definitions. So Bretons would be culturally considered "100%" men. And don't forget, as @RealLifeRedguard stated, the separation between man and mer is due to the Dawn Era metaphysical schism of the Elhnofey. The fact that they are all Ehlnofex descendants is why cross-racial breeding between men and mer is possible, but also why Bretons would never be considered "one of the races of Mer". They're not Mer, they just have Elven traits. And when the Nords first found them, those Elven traits were very prominent, hence the reason they were mistaken for an Aldmeri race and named "Manmer".

@dtm_samuraib16_ESO The documentation for why there is no documentation goes like this (from Racial Phylogeny):
It is less clear whether the Argonians and Khajiit are interfertile with both humans and elves. Though there have been many reports throughout the Eras of children from these unions, as well as stories of unions with daedra, there have been no well documented offspring. Khajiit differ from humans and elves not only their skeletal and dermal physiology -- the "fur" that covers their bodies -- but their metabolism and digestion as well. [...] The reproductive biology of orcs is at present not well understood, and the same is true of goblins, trolls, harpies, dreugh, tsaesci, imga, various daedra and many others. Certainly, there have been cases of intercourse between these "races," generally in the nature of *** or magickal seduction, but there have been no documented cases of pregnancy. Still the interfertility of these creatures and the civilized hominids has yet to be empirically established or refuted, likely due to the deep cultural differences. Surely any normal Bosmer or Breton impregnated by an orc would keep that shame to herself, and there's no reason to suppose that an orc maiden impregnated by a human would not be likewise ostracized by her society. Regrettably, our oaths as healers keep us from forcing a coupling to satisfy our scientific knowledge.

Xundiin wrote: »

That's official lore from the offical lore collection site.

@Xundiin As much as I like TIL, they're not an official site. @LadyNerevar and the team there do a good job at collaborating the lore, but it is still just a fan site (and not all of what they hold is official canon -- although they do usually indicate the stuff which isn't).

Elebeth wrote: »

P.S. Seriously, what are "In-game Savants"?

@Elebeth Savants were an NPC class in Morrowind, and one of the best sources of lore. As they would tell you themselves:
I am a savant. I am a man/woman of wide learning and cosmopolitan tastes, a well-traveled man/woman, educated, refined in manner, able to converse on various topics with authority, and a man/woman ever ready to defend his/her honor, and the honor of my companions. In short, you see before you a gentleman/gentlewoman. I can discourse upon history, speechcraft, language, and customs.
TIL's Savants' Notes on Vvardenfell are a transcript of all in-game dialogue by these NPCs.

Vigarr wrote: »

Xundiin wrote: »

This is a description I found on another wiki *really trying to find something more substantial than wiki's as proof.

UESP has the racial description from the Oblivion game manual...that's straight from the source-
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Breton

@Vigarr Unfortunately that is not directly from the Oblivion game manual. It is a paragraph using numerous sources, including PGE1; Provinces of Tamriel; The Sage; Holidays of the Iliac Bay; King Edward, Part IX; and How Orsinium Passed to the Orcs.

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

Four pages of people claiming Argonians can't crossbreed with the other races and NO ONE came in to refute that yet?
Locate the document 'Fall of Vitharn'

@WhiteCoatSyndrome Nice find! That would suggest that it certainly is possible. Whether it is naturally possible or not though still remains in question, as that occurred in a Daedric realm. I would agree with @Taisynn though that if the Hist wanted it to be possible, they would make it possible.


That just leaves Khajiit, and I would say that was theoretically possible too, given the history of Khajiit and Mer. That schism happened after the Ehlnofey split, and since union from both sides of that one is possible, there's no reason to suppose that unions from either side of the subsequent Khajiit-Mer split aren't possible as well.

RAGUNAnoOne

Well sex and marriage isn't only about reproduction you know just like with real people