Coupling Species - Lore breaking?

Xundiin

Elebeth wrote: »

Xundiin wrote: »

Elebeth wrote: »

Xundiin wrote: »

Xundiin wrote: »

Ethromelb14_ESO wrote: »

Xundiin wrote: »

In lore for TES the child takes the racial traits of the mother. So if a Bosmer and a Khajiit mate, the child will be what ever the mother is.

As for Argonians and x species. I don't think it's possible for them to have children since Argonians lay eggs.

So the child never gains mixed features of both parents? That's interesting ...

Nope, the exceptions to this rule is Bretons and Khajiit (that I know of). Bretons can either be human or have more elf like features. Like a more angular face or pointed ears (not as much as an actual elf but more than a human). This is caused by them having magical blood that is from Aldmer or Alyeids, I can't remember which but it's from elves that slept with Breton slaves iirc. But they are still not half-elves, they are Breton. A lot of people will try and put half-something is lore and they don't really exist.

The other exception to this rule is Khajiit. There are so many sub-species of the Khajiit I can't even remember them all, but they extend to looking more elf like to being a very large cat (think Senche here). What sub-species they are is dependent on what cycle of the moon they where born on and during what month... I think month not sure I'd have to go double check, but it is based on the cycle of the moon.

Elebeth wrote: »

Xundiin wrote: »

Elebeth wrote: »

Xundiin wrote: »

Barenziah cocked her head to one side quizzically. "They say Dark Elven women are pro-- pro-- something. Prostitutes?" she said, although she was dubious.

"You mean promiscuous. Although some do become prostitutes, I suppose," Katisha said as an afterthought. "Elves are promiscuous when they're young. But you'll outgrow it. Perhaps you're beginning to already," she added hopefully. She liked Barenziah, had grown to be quite fond of her. "You ought to meet some nice Elven boys, though. If you go on keeping company with Khajiits and humans and what have you, you'll find yourself pregnant in next to no time."

Barenziah smiled involuntarily at the thought. "I'd like that. I think. But it would be inconvenient, wouldn't it? Babies are a lot of trouble, and I don't even have my own house yet."

That's a direct quote from http://uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Real_Barenziah,_v_2

This hints at mer and at least Khajiit being able to have children. Also, the moon cycle really wouldn't be an issue since either the mother is Khajiit or not and since the child is the race of the mother it would still follow the moon cycles and such, nothing would change except maybe the child would have different eyes or less cat like ears. Remember traits are very minor and have little to no real changes on the child.

Also, I want to point out when quoting some of these in game books, make sure you look at copies from before morrowind since they've been changed to be less graphic so they could keep their rating down. For example, Daggerfall in game books of The Real Barenziah is much more detailed in sexual promiscuity than the versions that come after Morrowind.

No, this could hint that she will become pregnant faster than usual and the sentence "Constant pairing with a human has brought you early to fertility" from part 6 confirms this.
And yes, I'm aware of "uncensored" version. The sex scene with a Khajiit at the inn doesn't prove anything except that you can have sex with other species. We are trying to figure out if those two species could have an offspring.
Furthermore, why is it that we have no (or at least haven't found) a single reference of Betmer "hybrids" while we have so many examples of inter-species copulation?

Xundiin wrote: »

Because you called it a weaker argument to what elves see themselves as compared to what the Imperial Scholars see. What that passage was suppose to do was show that men, mer, and beast could mate. Which you didn't take it as that. it looked more like you where arguing towards the ideology of the two view points more than the fact that it said "men, mer, and beast can mate."

One side said that they and they alone are "people" and everyone else is an "animal" without providing single fact (typical Mer propaganda) and the other side countered that by saying that they are all equal because they can interbreed. Second argument has proof in Bretons but nothing past that.
So propaganda was fought with a fact that contained deliberate fallacy to point both the fact and ridicule "racism". That is the most logical explanation I see.

Xundiin wrote: »

There's nothing to debate. The Imperial Library is the recognized official lore collection site not only by fans of TES but Bethesda themselves. They've done interviews with the "head librarian" (can't remember her name) that keeps up with all the lore and such.

Go google and read few things along the lines of "Elder Scrolls and Official Lore/Canon", then come back here and say again that there's nothing to debate.

You keep bringing up "no proof of hybrids" there can't be hybrids. You would have to be able to have half elves and half orcs in lore for that to happen. The child is what ever the mother is except in rare occasions. So where are you going to get a Hybrid from? If a Khajiit married and mated with an orc, you don't get a green cat with tusks.

If you quoted the whole part you can tell that they are talking about inter-species breeding. yes the one paragraph you are trying to use as proof that it's just some anti-atlmer propaganda crap does talk about the different view points, but the second paragraph goes on to explain more in detail on this theory as well as mentioning again that there are reports of Khajiit and mer/men having offspring.

" Generally the offspring bear the racial traits of the mother, though some traces of the father's race may also be present. It is less clear whether the Argonians and Khajiit are interfertile with both humans and elves. Though there have been many reports throughout the Eras of children from these unions, as well as stories of unions with daedra, there have been no well documented offspring."

This is from http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Notes_on_Racial_Phylogeny

The problem is that the passage I quoted earlier and this on is as close to any hard proof you're going to find in official ESO lore. They left this subject vaguely open with just small hints at it being either or both or none.

As far as googling official lore.... why? I already know it's got more contradictions than the Holy Bible. As far as official collections of lore.... The Imperial Library is the original collection of TES lore started back in Daggerfall I think. So it was around before people started using Wiki. They don't change any thing at all. it's just a collection of all lore that is put out and ok'd by Bethesda themselves into one place. Also, any 5 year old with a wiki account can go in and change any information on it. Hence why English teachers hate when you try and cite Wiki as a source.

It is less clear whether the Argonians and Khajiit are interfertile with both humans and elves. Though there have been many reports throughout the Eras of children from these unions, as well as stories of unions with daedra, there have been no well documented offspring."

You quoted it. Uncertain if Argonians and Khajiit can have an offspring with Man or Mer. And that's what I'm pointing out.

Regarding hybrids, wrong wording on my part. However, we do have a half-orc and half-elf in lore so you argument is invalid.

My main argument is not against inter-species offsprings as a whole, it's against Betmer offsprings.

Where is this half-orc and half-elf when EVERY book that talks about inter-species mating says the same damn thing..... The mother determines the race. So how does this make my argument invalid?

And I love... LOVE.. how you keep ignore that I've not only linked quoted passages from in game books not only once but twice stating that there or reports that mating between Khajiit (possibly Argonians as well) and mer/men have been reported but no official proof. This leads to the possibility, which you keep ignoring and dismissing, that they can have inter-species offspring. Yet you are quick to take something that isn't known for sure as a fact that it can't happen.

Agronak gro-Malog is half-orc, not just an offspring of a Man-Orc union that took everything from his mother but an actual half/half. I reckoned he is here as an exception that confirm the rules so that goes in your favor. But he still exists.

Bretons are half elves, literal hybrids created over a long period of interbreeding.

There are reports of mating with Khajiits and Argonians but there are no reports on offspirings with Khajiit and Argonians.
Posters here agreed that Argonians are out of the picture and Khajiit could mate and produce offspirngs with Bosmer.

Bretons are not half elves, they are men.... it's stated in lore books. Men.... not elves, not half elves. men.

Manmer. Man. Mer.

Khosey, in his 'Tamrilean Tractates (sic),' transcribes a firsthand account of the "discovery" of the Bretons by a Nordic hunting party. The Bretons, in ten generations of Elven intermingling and slavery, had become scarcely recognizable as humans. Indeed, the hunting party attacked them thinking they were some new strain of Aldmeri, halting their slaughter only when one of the oldest began to wail for his life, a shrieking plea that was spoken in broken Nordic. When word of this reached Windhelm, the Nords reasoned that the "Manmeri" beyond the Reach were, in fact, descended from human slaves taken during the Elven destruction of Saarthal. King Vrage made the first priority of his Empire the liberation of his long-tormented kinsmen in High Rock. His initial onslaught took him as far as the Bjoulsae, but beyond that the First Empire never established a lasting presence; the crafty Elves were too strong in their magic, and many of the Bretons aided the Elves against their would-be liberators. Ironically enough, it took the tyranny of the Alessian Order to finally free High Rock from Elven dominion. Although the Alessians were crushed at the Battle of Glenumbria Moors, this costly victory so weakened Aldmeri power that the Elves could no longer challenge the emerging nobility of Greater Bretony, who seized power throughout most of High Rock within two decades of the Alessian defeat.

PGE I

They become to exist via men-mer procreation. Their strong affiliations to Men to strengthen their rule over High Rock after the fall of Dirreni Hegemony was nothing but politics.

They are men. And they are mer.

And this is where one of those contradictions come into play. By any other game lore with Elves and men they would be considered Half-Elves, in TES they are not. The Nords called them Menmeri for lack of a better word is my guess. But when it comes down to their actual classification in the games, and in most part the lore, they are considered part of the race of men. They can show signs of elvish decent, but they are not considered a half-elf, they are considered men with elvish blood (which by actual definition should be half-elves but for what ever reason Bethesda doesn't call them this). in Skyrim (I think) there is a Altmer court wizard that is teaching a Breton and when you talk to him he says something a long the lines of "She has a surprising aptitude for magic. Even for a Breton". I think this is close the original quote. I can't remember if he calls her a Breton or something else, but this would kinda hint that they don't see Bretons as part Elvish since magic is much more rampant in elves than men.

"Bretons are the descendants of either an Aldmeri-Nedic or Aldmeri-Atmoran hybrid race of the First Era and are consequently termed as 'the mongrel race of Tamriel'. Their elven blood is heavily diluted, due to their ancestors intermingling with the Nordic population in Skyrim and High Rock. Bretons are sometimes called "Manmeri" as a result of the interbreeding, literally translating to 'man-elf'. Although their Aldmeri ancestry is shadowed by their appearance, they still inherit the magical affinity of their elven blood. Their physical features resemble their Nedic ancestors, including their pale skin tone and the obvious physical resemblance to Imperials/Nords, but some still inherit the frail, sharp appearance of the elves, along with the arrogance, and some do have slight points in their ears."

http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Breton

Though that's from a site I don't normally use.

"The Bretons are a human race with a small amount of Elven ancestry but are not generally considered half-elves. Their race is heavily based and influenced by French and Franco-Canadian people and culture, with some Celtic influence. They populate the province of High Rock, where the second game of the series, Daggerfall, takes place. Due to their High Elven ancestry, Bretons are pure spell weavers, and they are advanced in all the arcane arts. While they tend to lack in physical skill compared to the Nords, Bretons are able to make up for it in their ability to resist and cast spells that overwhelm most whom they encounter, although not to the same level as a seasoned High Elf. They are generally known as being quite passionate, eccentric, poetic, flamboyant, intelligent, willful, along with being extraordinary cooks. They feel an instinctive bond with mercurial forces of magic and the supernatural world, thus explains their strong tie with their magical abilities and the arcane arts. They are most likely to be either a battle mage, necromage, or witch hunter. High Rock society is strongly influenced by the pursuit of prosperity and wealth. Thus, Breton culture is known for its high social mobility as well as strict but easily prosperous class system in which lowly peasants and beggers may easily become prominent citizens given the right motivation and skill."

This is a description I found on another wiki *really trying to find something more substantial than wiki's as proof.

"1/2= more human than elf

wrong it would be more correct ot say that they are part elf — Unsigned comment by 68.61.76.75 (talk) at 21:24 on 27 November 2006

Well... technically they could be half elven... Bretons came from Nedic women being taken as concubines for Aldmer... and in Tamriel.. race comes from the mother — Unsigned comment by 139.55.49.205 (talk) at 07:17 on 14 July 2008

Of course, cross an elf and a man and you get nothing close to a Breton. — Unsigned comment by 24.31.156.165 (talk) at 02:43 on 26 July 2008"

This is a discussion on the Lore talk of UESPWiki.

So general consensus seems to be they are human with elf ancestry. Not Half-Elves.

susmitds

Xundiin wrote: »

In lore for TES the child takes the racial traits of the mother. So if a Bosmer and a Khajiit mate, the child will be what ever the mother is.

As for Argonians and x species. I don't think it's possible for them to have children since Argonians lay eggs.

No, there have been half orcs and half elves in the previous games and they retained partial traits of both races.

Hamfast

First, I want to agree with the poster who said this was an awesome discussion...

On another note, examples have been given in this discussion of the racial biases against "Mixed Race" pairings, but this fails to take into account two things, the individuals who love who they love, and *** (War and Slavery both lend themselves to this). When a ravaging army of Orcs spreads across your lands, half-orcs may be an outcome, the mother who finds herself with child may take the proper herbs to cause the premature termination of the said condition. Under slavery, female slaves may be forced to terminate the pregnancy or be terminated themselves for the affront.

In the case of children of a loving pairings, as has been stated, they have the characteristics of the mother and with the bias against the offspring of a mixed race pairing. I would expect that their parents would go to great lengths to hide their mixed parentage from the rest of the world, thus the lack of information on children of mixed parentage. That there are examples of people who are in-fact of mixed parentage shows that they do exist.

Looking at history, of Nirn or our world, there seem to be a large number of historical figures, but that number is miniscule when compared to the population. Some are forgotten if the political views change (Look up Salem Poor), most are only remembered for a few things and the rest of their lives are forgotten. What is important today, "He is of Mixed Race" may become "He was a viscous murderer that almost conquered all of Nirn, until stopped by a hero" and then "There are fourteen leaders who have tried to conquer all of Nirn"

Xundiin

susmitds wrote: »

Xundiin wrote: »

In lore for TES the child takes the racial traits of the mother. So if a Bosmer and a Khajiit mate, the child will be what ever the mother is.

As for Argonians and x species. I don't think it's possible for them to have children since Argonians lay eggs.

No, there have been half orcs and half elves in the previous games and they retained partial traits of both races.

You need to read the whole thread, not just a couple posts on the first page. I believe i've quoted there can be exceptions, but there are no actual half-elves that I can think of in lore. And the only half-orc (funny as it may be) comes from the same book that states "children inherit their mothers race."

Though one of the Septums was born of an imperial father and a Atlmeri mother and was Imperial. Though this is chalked up to the fact that the septum blood prevented the Altmeri traits to surface. Also, if you look at all the exceptions to the rules, 9/10 times magic is involved. So according to the way biology works in TES the child is what ever race the mother is.

waterfairy

Xundiin wrote: »

This is a description I found on another wiki *really trying to find something more substantial than wiki's as proof.

UESP has the racial description from the Oblivion game manual...that's straight from the source-
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Breton

"Bretons are the human descendants of the Aldmeri-Nedic Manmer of the Merethic Era and are now the inhabitants of the province of High Rock. They are united in culture and language, even though they are divided politically, for High Rock is a fractious region. Bretons make up the peasantry, soldiery, and magical elite of the feudal kingdoms that compete for power. Many are capable mages with innate resistance to magicka. They are known for a proficiency in abstract thinking and unique customs. Bretons appear, by and large, much like other pale-skinned humans. They are usually slight of build and not as muscular as Nords or Redguards. Their Elvish ancestry is usually only detectable upon a closer inspection of their eyebrows, ears, or high cheekbones, though many individual Bretons appear to be more Nordic or Imperial than anything else. The great diversity in their appearance is to be expected from their politically fractured society, though their clothes, accents, customs and names are fairly uniform."

dtm_samuraib16_ESO

@Xundiin A qeustion: why is it possible for humanoids to be attracted by beastmen, but it is unthinkable for scholars to specialize in this, science wise?
This is from a few posts back, but this intrigues me a lot.

IMHO, if you have men interested in beastmen, then there are absolutely men (or beastmen) scholars interested in the relationship and all that comes with it from a scientific point of view.
Scientists in general don't give a dtrats of what others think to be vulgar or not, they only see the science in this.

Which would make that offspring in interspecies relationships, would be EXTREMELY well documented, no?

Ethromelb14_ESO

I still think there should be a means to play as one of these cross-species races, and have it reflect either in the creation mode or within the story for our character. Perhaps the have to deal with being shunned by their own people for being mixed with another, what they consider "inferior" race. I've seen hints of such things before in some quests, but it never really seems to affect our character directly.

I think that beyond our faction, the lineage of our character should seem to matter to a few NPCs we come across. Especially since there are NPCs that think this way, and it would make our characters seem to be more a part of the world of Tamriel, and less like a nomad.

Xundiin

dtm_samuraib16_ESO wrote: »

So, OK, let's say, I have divine sex with Amaxia, and she bears 200 children of me (She is a goddess, not a clue how firtile THEY are), don't you think every somewhat science based person would be there and write entire phonebooks over this?

Oh come on.

OR!!!
It is SO common, no one thinks of making official reports of it anymore, but then, where are they eh?

Now you're just being absurd. If you mated with a goddess..... um... there would more than likely be a whole race of new humans or what ever.... if you mated with someone that your culture frowned upon and had a child, you'd more than likely keep it secret for fear of being shunned.... the two aren't even remotely the same.... not even in the same universe.

Xundiin

Ugh double post. >.<

waterfairy

dtm_samuraib16_ESO wrote: »

@Xundiin A qeustion: why is it possible for humanoids to be attracted by beastmen, but it is unthinkable for scholars to specialize in this, science wise?
This is from a few posts back, but this intrigues me a lot.

IMHO, if you have men interested in beastmen, then there are absolutely men (or beastmen) scholars interested in the relationship and all that comes with it from a scientific point of view.
Scientists in general don't give a dtrats of what others think to be vulgar or not, they only see the science in this.

Which would make that offspring in interspecies relationships, would be EXTREMELY well documented, no?

Where have you seen scientists in TES? There's researchers and mages that resemble scientists but anything studied that's not accepted by society gets them shunned and possibly killed (necromancy and the like).

Elebeth

-

Xundiin wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

Xundiin wrote: »

In lore for TES the child takes the racial traits of the mother. So if a Bosmer and a Khajiit mate, the child will be what ever the mother is.

As for Argonians and x species. I don't think it's possible for them to have children since Argonians lay eggs.

No, there have been half orcs and half elves in the previous games and they retained partial traits of both races.

You need to read the whole thread, not just a couple posts on the first page. I believe i've quoted there can be exceptions, but there are no actual half-elves that I can think of in lore. And the only half-orc (funny as it may be) comes from the same book that states "children inherit their mothers race."

Though one of the Septums was born of an imperial father and a Atlmeri mother and was Imperial. Though this is chalked up to the fact that the septum blood prevented the Altmeri traits to surface. Also, if you look at all the exceptions to the rules, 9/10 times magic is involved. So according to the way biology works in TES the child is what ever race the mother is.

You said that there are no actual-half elves mentioned in lore. I just proved that there were. Once. I didn't argue what happened to Bretons throughout the eras.
But point stands, they were men that at one point became as close to the mer one can get without actually being one, and then gradually swung back to be more men-like, both via politics and bloodlines.

Xundiin

Vigarr wrote: »

Xundiin wrote: »

This is a description I found on another wiki *really trying to find something more substantial than wiki's as proof.

UESP has the racial description from the Oblivion game manual...that's straight from the source-
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Breton

"Bretons are the human descendants of the Aldmeri-Nedic Manmer of the Merethic Era and are now the inhabitants of the province of High Rock. They are united in culture and language, even though they are divided politically, for High Rock is a fractious region. Bretons make up the peasantry, soldiery, and magical elite of the feudal kingdoms that compete for power. Many are capable mages with innate resistance to magicka. They are known for a proficiency in abstract thinking and unique customs. Bretons appear, by and large, much like other pale-skinned humans. They are usually slight of build and not as muscular as Nords or Redguards. Their Elvish ancestry is usually only detectable upon a closer inspection of their eyebrows, ears, or high cheekbones, though many individual Bretons appear to be more Nordic or Imperial than anything else. The great diversity in their appearance is to be expected from their politically fractured society, though their clothes, accents, customs and names are fairly uniform."

Ah, that's where that came from, sorry they didn't have it sourced so I didn't know. Thanks for that.

Ethromelb14_ESO

Xundiin wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

Xundiin wrote: »

In lore for TES the child takes the racial traits of the mother. So if a Bosmer and a Khajiit mate, the child will be what ever the mother is.

As for Argonians and x species. I don't think it's possible for them to have children since Argonians lay eggs.

No, there have been half orcs and half elves in the previous games and they retained partial traits of both races.

You need to read the whole thread, not just a couple posts on the first page. I believe i've quoted there can be exceptions, but there are no actual half-elves that I can think of in lore. And the only half-orc (funny as it may be) comes from the same book that states "children inherit their mothers race."

Though one of the Septums was born of an imperial father and a Atlmeri mother and was Imperial. Though this is chalked up to the fact that the septum blood prevented the Altmeri traits to surface. Also, if you look at all the exceptions to the rules, 9/10 times magic is involved. So according to the way biology works in TES the child is what ever race the mother is.

It could very well be, that some races consider themselves to be superior because they are aware that they have a more dominant gene when it comes to mixing themselves with other races. Like it was said before, there are no obviously mixed featured High Elves ... so on and so on.

Ethromelb14_ESO

Xundiin wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

Xundiin wrote: »

In lore for TES the child takes the racial traits of the mother. So if a Bosmer and a Khajiit mate, the child will be what ever the mother is.

As for Argonians and x species. I don't think it's possible for them to have children since Argonians lay eggs.

No, there have been half orcs and half elves in the previous games and they retained partial traits of both races.

You need to read the whole thread, not just a couple posts on the first page. I believe i've quoted there can be exceptions, but there are no actual half-elves that I can think of in lore. And the only half-orc (funny as it may be) comes from the same book that states "children inherit their mothers race."

Though one of the Septums was born of an imperial father and a Atlmeri mother and was Imperial. Though this is chalked up to the fact that the septum blood prevented the Altmeri traits to surface. Also, if you look at all the exceptions to the rules, 9/10 times magic is involved. So according to the way biology works in TES the child is what ever race the mother is.

It could very well be, that some races consider themselves to be superior because they are aware that they have a more dominant gene when it comes to mixing themselves with other races. Like it was said before, there are no obviously mixed featured High Elves ... so on and so on.

dtm_samuraib16_ESO

Vigarr wrote: »

dtm_samuraib16_ESO wrote: »

@Xundiin A qeustion: why is it possible for humanoids to be attracted by beastmen, but it is unthinkable for scholars to specialize in this, science wise?
This is from a few posts back, but this intrigues me a lot.

IMHO, if you have men interested in beastmen, then there are absolutely men (or beastmen) scholars interested in the relationship and all that comes with it from a scientific point of view.
Scientists in general don't give a dtrats of what others think to be vulgar or not, they only see the science in this.

Which would make that offspring in interspecies relationships, would be EXTREMELY well documented, no?

Where have you seen scientists in TES? There's researchers and mages that resemble scientists but anything studied that's not accepted by society gets them shunned and possibly killed (necromancy and the like).

Scholars, yes, I know, but they are the ones making scientific documentations of everything normal and abnormal.
I just generalized all the studying under the scientist tag, being it science as known in Tamriel, of course.

Xundiin

dtm_samuraib16_ESO wrote: »

@Xundiin A qeustion: why is it possible for humanoids to be attracted by beastmen, but it is unthinkable for scholars to specialize in this, science wise?
This is from a few posts back, but this intrigues me a lot.

IMHO, if you have men interested in beastmen, then there are absolutely men (or beastmen) scholars interested in the relationship and all that comes with it from a scientific point of view.
Scientists in general don't give a dtrats of what others think to be vulgar or not, they only see the science in this.

Which would make that offspring in interspecies relationships, would be EXTREMELY well documented, no?

In today's society yes, but you have to realize that to put Tamriel into a period of time in our history would be like the dark ages or medieval ages. Science was pretty lacking back then and documentation wasn't abundant or well kept. yes a lot of information came out of it. Even interracial offspring between men and mer where rare I'd imagine that men/mer and Beast would be even rarer. You have to also have to remember, Tamriel is full of races that have deep rooted prejudices and in some cases straight up racism towards each other. So to have a child that wasn't "pure" would be shunned or frowned upon and more than likely the parents would have moved and lived in hiding seclusion or even abandoning the child to keep from being social pariahs.

To really see what sort of things could happen you really need to take a look at US history during the civil rights movements back to slavery. In the deep south it was punishable by death in some case to even look at the opposite race. So I'd imagine that since Bethesda draws a lot of influence from world history I'd imagine that the same would happen in TES. You can also see this sort of thing happening to Chinese families. I have a friend that if he started dating a black or Japanese woman he'd be disowned by his entire family. So yeah.... I honestly don't think this would be well documented.

dtm_samuraib16_ESO

Umm, in TODAYS world?
Excuse me, what about the folks being killed in the dark ages because they did scientific work, but was considered EVIL, Satanical, and put on the stake?

I think, you might want to do some research in history there, brother, history is FULL with people researching things others prefered NOT to have researched.

Let's just think of that fella who said the world is a rond sphere instead of a flat disk...
Right, that one.

Or Da Vinci, and his helicopter and whatnot.

Xundiin

Elebeth wrote: »

-

Xundiin wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

Xundiin wrote: »

In lore for TES the child takes the racial traits of the mother. So if a Bosmer and a Khajiit mate, the child will be what ever the mother is.

As for Argonians and x species. I don't think it's possible for them to have children since Argonians lay eggs.

No, there have been half orcs and half elves in the previous games and they retained partial traits of both races.

You need to read the whole thread, not just a couple posts on the first page. I believe i've quoted there can be exceptions, but there are no actual half-elves that I can think of in lore. And the only half-orc (funny as it may be) comes from the same book that states "children inherit their mothers race."

Though one of the Septums was born of an imperial father and a Atlmeri mother and was Imperial. Though this is chalked up to the fact that the septum blood prevented the Altmeri traits to surface. Also, if you look at all the exceptions to the rules, 9/10 times magic is involved. So according to the way biology works in TES the child is what ever race the mother is.

You said that there are no actual-half elves mentioned in lore. I just proved that there were. Once. I didn't argue what happened to Bretons throughout the eras.
But point stands, they were men that at one point became as close to the mer one can get without actually being one, and then gradually swung back to be more men-like, both via politics and bloodlines.

I already posted why, this wasn't a response to you.

Xundiin

dtm_samuraib16_ESO wrote: »

Umm, in TODAYS world?
Excuse me, what about the folks being killed in the dark ages because they did scientific work, but was considered EVIL, Satanical, and put on the stake?

I think, you might want to do some research in history there, brother, history is FULL with people researching things others prefered NOT to have researched.

Let's just think of that fella who said the world is a rond sphere instead of a flat disk...
Right, that one.

Or Da Vinci, and his helicopter and whatnot.

Um.... wtf?!

I'm talking about documentation of scientific research and how limited it really was back then. I know they killed people for herecy over science, I was raised Roman Catholic and the Catholic church destroyed most of my cultures past. So I know full well what happened. This isn't about what happened to scientist back then, this is how secret a inter-species child would be more than likely kept secret and hidden in a world where racism runs rampant. So documentation would be scarce if any at all.Also, yes they where doing research that the religious factions of the time deemed false. Not interracial breeding between two hated cultures.

You keep trying to go off on some weird side track that doesn't work. I mean seriously.... interspecies offspring would be RARE.... and scholars scientist don't even know how Dwemer crap works or what even happened to Dwemer. It's all speculation at best. And this is the most researched topic in all of Tamriel with 100's if not 1000's of Dwemer ruins to explore. No one is hating and destroying the dwemer ruins or documents or items of the Dewmer even existing. No one is trying to keep them a secret for fear of being shunned. and yet... very very very very little is known of the Dwemer. And some how something that would be so rare, like finding a 40 year old virgin, would be well documented?

Elebeth

Xundiin wrote: »

Elebeth wrote: »

-

Xundiin wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

Xundiin wrote: »

In lore for TES the child takes the racial traits of the mother. So if a Bosmer and a Khajiit mate, the child will be what ever the mother is.

As for Argonians and x species. I don't think it's possible for them to have children since Argonians lay eggs.

No, there have been half orcs and half elves in the previous games and they retained partial traits of both races.

You need to read the whole thread, not just a couple posts on the first page. I believe i've quoted there can be exceptions, but there are no actual half-elves that I can think of in lore. And the only half-orc (funny as it may be) comes from the same book that states "children inherit their mothers race."

Though one of the Septums was born of an imperial father and a Atlmeri mother and was Imperial. Though this is chalked up to the fact that the septum blood prevented the Altmeri traits to surface. Also, if you look at all the exceptions to the rules, 9/10 times magic is involved. So according to the way biology works in TES the child is what ever race the mother is.

You said that there are no actual-half elves mentioned in lore. I just proved that there were. Once. I didn't argue what happened to Bretons throughout the eras.
But point stands, they were men that at one point became as close to the mer one can get without actually being one, and then gradually swung back to be more men-like, both via politics and bloodlines.

I already posted why, this wasn't a response to you.

I know it wasn't, but it used the same argument (that there are no half-elves in lore).
The response that was directed to me said that you didn't see Bethesda directly using the wording "half-elves" so they obviously don't and can't exist while ignoring the term Manmeri labeling it as an in-game "misnomer" even thought the passage I quoted states that the Bretons were much more than just "half-elves", they were almost indistinguishable from them.

So point stands, there were half-elves in Tamriels history and they are documented in lore.

Elebeth

Double post

Anyone else has this weird lags while trying to post?

dtm_samuraib16_ESO

Elebeth wrote: »

Double post

Anyone else has this weird lags while trying to post?

Yes, and HEAVY lag posting.
So it is not you, @Elebeth.

Xundiin wrote: »

Um.... wtf?!

I'm talking about documentation of scientific research and how limited it really was back then. I know they killed people for herecy over science, I was raised Roman Catholic and the Catholic church destroyed most of my cultures past. So I know full well what happened. This isn't about what happened to scientist back then, this is how secret a inter-species child would be more than likely kept secret and hidden in a world where racism runs rampant. So documentation would be scarce if any at all.

Ah yes, but still, many, and i mean MANY!!! back then did note about everything.
We see medieval books speaking of plants, animals, their life and uses, as soon as people began to write, or draw Hieroglyphs, they noted down scientific research, about the world around them, and whatnot.
Think of cave paintings depicting hunts?

dtm_samuraib16_ESO

Elebeth wrote: »

Double post

Anyone else has this weird lags while trying to post?

I'm starting to believe the Forum is under a DDOS attack, more and more the site acts up...?

Xundiin

Elebeth wrote: »

Xundiin wrote: »

Elebeth wrote: »

-

Xundiin wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

Xundiin wrote: »

In lore for TES the child takes the racial traits of the mother. So if a Bosmer and a Khajiit mate, the child will be what ever the mother is.

As for Argonians and x species. I don't think it's possible for them to have children since Argonians lay eggs.

No, there have been half orcs and half elves in the previous games and they retained partial traits of both races.

You need to read the whole thread, not just a couple posts on the first page. I believe i've quoted there can be exceptions, but there are no actual half-elves that I can think of in lore. And the only half-orc (funny as it may be) comes from the same book that states "children inherit their mothers race."

Though one of the Septums was born of an imperial father and a Atlmeri mother and was Imperial. Though this is chalked up to the fact that the septum blood prevented the Altmeri traits to surface. Also, if you look at all the exceptions to the rules, 9/10 times magic is involved. So according to the way biology works in TES the child is what ever race the mother is.

You said that there are no actual-half elves mentioned in lore. I just proved that there were. Once. I didn't argue what happened to Bretons throughout the eras.
But point stands, they were men that at one point became as close to the mer one can get without actually being one, and then gradually swung back to be more men-like, both via politics and bloodlines.

I already posted why, this wasn't a response to you.

I know it wasn't, but it used the same argument (that there are no half-elves in lore).
The response that was directed to me said that you didn't see Bethesda directly using the wording "half-elves" so they obviously don't and can't exist while ignoring the term Manmeri labeling it as an in-game "misnomer" even thought the passage I quoted states that the Bretons were much more than just "half-elves", they were almost indistinguishable from them.

So point stands, there were half-elves in Tamriels history and they are documented in lore.

Neither of us is right and neither of us is wrong on this one. This is one of those contradictions in lore that can't be solved really. Bretons are still called manmeri.... even though they don't show signs or show very little signs of elven decent. This doesn't change the fact they are men.

The problem is the way race is determined in interracial mating. If we go by what lore says should happen, Breton should never have existed. yet they did. Could this be chalked up to magical influence and not just good old fashion nature working with this?

RealLifeRedguard

Elebeth wrote: »

RealLifeRedguard wrote: »

Exactly this.

We see examples of this in the games al the time. I remember in Oblivion meeting a redguard whose father was a breton. This means her mother is a redguard.

Bretons are a peculiar case. It's possible that so-called "half-breeds" like them formed because of multiple generations of cross-breeding with the Direnni High Elves creating a completely new race. It's believed that breton's magical aptitude comes from their elven heritage, so it seems that this theory holds a bit of
water.

Race is a weird thing in ES, especially when it comes to men and mer. Breton are still 100% men even though they have some mer ancestry. Redguards are men even though they come from a completely different place than the imperials and nords. It's more of a spiritual or metaphysical thing.

No one is arguing against that. We all agree that all Mer (Alt, Bos, Dun, Orsi, and I guess, Sinister and Maor) can mix with all Men.

And why do you say that Bretons are 100% men if they are mad out of Man+Mer union?
Sound more like a political thing rather than spiritual.

Because the separation between men and mer is a solid, metaphysical schism from the dawn era, and because politics and spirituality are often the same thing on Nirn.

dtm_samuraib16_ESO

Xundiin wrote: »

The problem is the way race is determined in interracial mating. If we go by what lore says should happen, Breton should never have existed. yet they did. Could this be chalked up to magical influence and not just good old fashion nature working with this?

No, but humanoids have similar sexual organs.
However, Argonians do not.
And although I can see Khajiit mating with humanoids, I simply cannot see offspring from this, especially since it is not officially noted down by Scholars.
Sure, there is hearsay, and there are some "hearsay" writings about this, bit nothing noteworthy.
And just there, I come to fail in the whole "it's possible" part.
Scholars do not concern themselves with what people think, they only are concerned with the facts.

Elebeth

RealLifeRedguard wrote: »

Elebeth wrote: »

RealLifeRedguard wrote: »

Exactly this.

We see examples of this in the games al the time. I remember in Oblivion meeting a redguard whose father was a breton. This means her mother is a redguard.

Bretons are a peculiar case. It's possible that so-called "half-breeds" like them formed because of multiple generations of cross-breeding with the Direnni High Elves creating a completely new race. It's believed that breton's magical aptitude comes from their elven heritage, so it seems that this theory holds a bit of
water.

Race is a weird thing in ES, especially when it comes to men and mer. Breton are still 100% men even though they have some mer ancestry. Redguards are men even though they come from a completely different place than the imperials and nords. It's more of a spiritual or metaphysical thing.

No one is arguing against that. We all agree that all Mer (Alt, Bos, Dun, Orsi, and I guess, Sinister and Maor) can mix with all Men.

And why do you say that Bretons are 100% men if they are mad out of Man+Mer union?
Sound more like a political thing rather than spiritual.

Because the separation between men and mer is a solid, metaphysical schism from the dawn era, and because politics and spirituality are often the same thing on Nirn.

Sarcasm, right?

Because, "The Bretons, in ten generations of Elven intermingling and slavery, had become scarcely recognizable as humans. Indeed, the hunting party attacked them thinking they were some new strain of Aldmeri..."
PGE I

dtm_samuraib16_ESO

Well no, it is not just in Nirn.
Politics and religion often go hand in hand.
But he's speaking of the fact that the elves made these half breeds, I think.

Xundiin

dtm_samuraib16_ESO wrote: »

Xundiin wrote: »

The problem is the way race is determined in interracial mating. If we go by what lore says should happen, Breton should never have existed. yet they did. Could this be chalked up to magical influence and not just good old fashion nature working with this?

No, but humanoids have similar sexual organs.
However, Argonians do not.
And although I can see Khajiit mating with humanoids, I simply cannot see offspring from this, especially since it is not officially noted down by Scholars.
Sure, there is hearsay, and there are some "hearsay" writings about this, bit nothing noteworthy.
And just there, I come to fail in the whole "it's possible" part.
Scholars do not concern themselves with what people think, they only are concerned with the facts.

Not entirely true, there are references to books in lore by other books in lore that the author of the original book was biased or trying to push a political view. I'm not going to be able to pull those specific books out to show you because there are way to many books in this series to dig through every single one looking for that one needle. But scholars are not as infaluable as you are trying to lead on.

The only way I see this being documented is if a scholar themselves went and found a Khajiit female, or male depending on sex and race, to have sex with them to try and copulate. Since I find that hard to believe that not only would a scholar risk expulsion from society, his order, and possibly his family or even worst put to death. Not to mention a Khajiit that would be willing to sacrifice all the same things as well including the child if it was possible. And even if this all did happen to keep it secret at the same time along with the child and any notes the scholar would have taken.

Khajiit in Tamriel are not well liked. They are shunned by every species even their own most times. So you'd have to take that into consideration as well when discussing the lack of documentation there is on the subject.

Taisynn

@Ethromelb14_ESO

Watch this video; it explains a lot about half-breeds in ESO, including unions with Argonians.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UucMG2N9A6k