Elder Scrolls and the LGBT Characters

TheShadowScout

Genomic wrote: »

You can't have played many games then.

I played some, but not that many. The point I was trying to make is that while quite a few games go for L-G-B, much less dare to make the last step to T for the LGBT circle...

Abeille

starkerealm wrote: »

Genomic wrote: »

You can't have played many games then.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_characters_in_video_games

What's unusual is that they're presented in such a normative state, rather than the game going, "hey, look guys, look! We can be inclusive! Guys? Look! It's lesbians! That's hot, right?" In that sense, ESO is unusual. Not unique, but unusual.

Compare this to something like Dragon Age: Inquisition that uses a trans character as a blunt instrument, saying, "hey, look how much more enlightened we are than you," by force feeding some insensitive as hell lines down your character's throat.

The dialogue choices on that conversation in DA: I were really awful, I agree. Which is a shame, because that trans character was really well-written in my opinion.

failkiwib16_ESO

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Genomic wrote: »

You can't have played many games then.

I played some, but not that many. The point I was trying to make is that while quite a few games go for L-G-B, much less dare to make the last step to T for the LGBT circle...

It's probably best to describe ESO as friendly toward homosexuality and bisexuality, and not tie them to the LGBT community.

"LGBT community" is more of a collaboration between those minorities to gain strength, they don't have much in common. It's also safe to say that L, G and B are more common among people in general than T is, so entertainment media have a higher interest in marketing for L, G & B than T.

I think if it became more common, then we would see more T NPC's in games

Taisynn

This is one of the most inclusive games I have ever played. It makes me really happy to see a world where very few are phased by interspecies or samesex relationships. They just are there. And they are woven beautifully into the story.

And it warms my heart to see the community just as happy about it. It makes people like me, who are a part of the LGBT community, very happy. Hell, I'm also a member of the BDSM community and seeing what was happening in the Ebony Flask made me both giggle and feel included.

SerasWhip

you are very welcome @Gidorick

svartorn

Thieves guild quest line

RomansXXI

I'm always breaking into npc housing and finding peculiar couples.

Argonian x Khajiit is my favourite. I want to see their kids

Ser Lobo

I have a very common acceptance of other peoples sexuality or personal preference. I love how ZOS presents the whole issue ... matter of fact, accepted, and perfectly normal.

In reality, I feel they should make a legal distinction between a religious ceremony that should have no legal power (separation of church and state) but means everything to the participants, and a legal union which reflects a status change to taxation, insurance and healthcare procedures.



I don't actually find myself offended until someone announces their sexual preferences to the world. I get mighty frustrated with 'coming out' posts and LGBT bumper stickers. Then again, I get offended at constant straight-sexuality oriented announcements, too.

In my perfect world, everybody wouldn't feel the need to tell everyone else all the time.

Course, I feel the same way about other issues, too. The fact that they have to constantly reiterate their stance on issues, be it vaping, veganism, or crossfit.

I work out too, bro. Quit talking about your cleans unless you want me to start talking about shoulder injuries.

JamilaRaj

Recremen wrote: »

I know a lot of other games have LGBT+ characters, but I'm completely enraptured with how normalized it all is. No jokes about it, no need to explain themselves, no getting defensive, and not making it the defining feature of the character. Instead, we get stories, just like everyone else. This couple is old, help them relive a treasured memory in their golden years before they pass on. This couple is young and are trying to build a life together, help them escape a gambling debt owed to a predatory casino owner. This lady got captured by pirates, help her girlfriend slay the kidnappers. Wonderful.

But if the girlfriend was kidnapped by pirates just some sailors, because they were homophobic pricks (despite otherwise fighting against Molag Bal or something and besides offering ridiculously OP reward, if you kidnap the other lady), drama level would go up substantially.
Certainly Tamriel would be more credible if filled with bigots, and even more with some evil LGBT characters too.
Utopia would be wonderful and commendable; a simulation of it can be just bland.

Recremen

JamilaRaj wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

I know a lot of other games have LGBT+ characters, but I'm completely enraptured with how normalized it all is. No jokes about it, no need to explain themselves, no getting defensive, and not making it the defining feature of the character. Instead, we get stories, just like everyone else. This couple is old, help them relive a treasured memory in their golden years before they pass on. This couple is young and are trying to build a life together, help them escape a gambling debt owed to a predatory casino owner. This lady got captured by pirates, help her girlfriend slay the kidnappers. Wonderful.

But if the girlfriend was kidnapped by pirates just some sailors, because they were homophobic pricks (despite otherwise fighting against Molag Bal or something and besides offering ridiculously OP reward, if you kidnap the other lady), drama level would go up substantially.
Certainly Tamriel would be more credible if filled with bigots, and even more with some evil LGBT characters too.
Utopia would be wonderful and commendable; a simulation of it can be just bland.

Tamriel is far from a Utopia, as evidenced by the fact that the lady's girlfriend was kidnapped by pirates. That doesn't happen in a perfect society! Nor does all the theft, murder, and political exploitation/turmoil. The media is completely saturated with stories about sad LGBT+ people and their sad gay lives, to the point where it's hard to find examples of gay characters who have anything in their lives going on besides being oppressed. I don't feel it would add extra drama to the situation if the lady's girlfriend were captured by bigots, the fact that she was captured for anything is completely sufficient. It really wouldn't add some special new layer to the story, it would just be yet another example of the poor oppressed lesbian couple. There's really no reason to bring direct cognates of real-world social issues into the game since people belonging to targeted groups already have enough reminders of how terrible the world can be for them. Not to mention that a lot of writers just can't treat the material with the necessary sensitivity or nuance.

As for having evil LGBT characters, it's really hard to say if we do or don't have them already. We almost never see much in the way of the romantic lives of villains, so it's plenty like that there's already a good spread of them. Maybe that lich at the bottom of Bahraha's Gloom was gay in life. Maybe that Dunmer at the end of Veteran Fungal Grotto is a lesbian. Maybe Mannimarco is a trans man. Nobody knows!

Vangy

Recremen wrote: »

JamilaRaj wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

I know a lot of other games have LGBT+ characters, but I'm completely enraptured with how normalized it all is. No jokes about it, no need to explain themselves, no getting defensive, and not making it the defining feature of the character. Instead, we get stories, just like everyone else. This couple is old, help them relive a treasured memory in their golden years before they pass on. This couple is young and are trying to build a life together, help them escape a gambling debt owed to a predatory casino owner. This lady got captured by pirates, help her girlfriend slay the kidnappers. Wonderful.

But if the girlfriend was kidnapped by pirates just some sailors, because they were homophobic pricks (despite otherwise fighting against Molag Bal or something and besides offering ridiculously OP reward, if you kidnap the other lady), drama level would go up substantially.
Certainly Tamriel would be more credible if filled with bigots, and even more with some evil LGBT characters too.
Utopia would be wonderful and commendable; a simulation of it can be just bland.

Tamriel is far from a Utopia, as evidenced by the fact that the lady's girlfriend was kidnapped by pirates. That doesn't happen in a perfect society! Nor does all the theft, murder, and political exploitation/turmoil. The media is completely saturated with stories about sad LGBT+ people and their sad gay lives, to the point where it's hard to find examples of gay characters who have anything in their lives going on besides being oppressed. I don't feel it would add extra drama to the situation if the lady's girlfriend were captured by bigots, the fact that she was captured for anything is completely sufficient. It really wouldn't add some special new layer to the story, it would just be yet another example of the poor oppressed lesbian couple. There's really no reason to bring direct cognates of real-world social issues into the game since people belonging to targeted groups already have enough reminders of how terrible the world can be for them. Not to mention that a lot of writers just can't treat the material with the necessary sensitivity or nuance.

As for having evil LGBT characters, it's really hard to say if we do or don't have them already. We almost never see much in the way of the romantic lives of villains, so it's plenty like that there's already a good spread of them. Maybe that lich at the bottom of Bahraha's Gloom was gay in life. Maybe that Dunmer at the end of Veteran Fungal Grotto is a lesbian. Maybe Mannimarco is a trans man. Nobody knows!

Manly-marco?

greylox

It's done perfectly, just another part of the story.

The day we stop using terms like homosexual etc is the day that we realise it's just another facet of humanity.

ADarklore

What I disliked about DA:I is that the portrayals of LGBT was extremely stereotypical... Dorian was the exact image of a stereotype for gay men, it was a horrible representation of actual reality... Fenris on the other hand. What I think ESO does correctly is reduce the whole 'sex' aspect and makes it more about 'everyday life'... nothing unusual, nothing outrageous... just normal... which is how it should be.

Abeille

ADarklore wrote: »

What I disliked about DA:I is that the portrayals of LGBT was extremely stereotypical... Dorian was the exact image of a stereotype for gay men, it was a horrible representation of actual reality... Fenris on the other hand. What I think ESO does correctly is reduce the whole 'sex' aspect and makes it more about 'everyday life'... nothing unusual, nothing outrageous... just normal... which is how it should be.

Dorian is one of several of LGBT characters in Dragon Age. I didn't really see an issue on making one of them flamboyant, since we have many others who are not stereotypical. It is just a personality trait. Although, because his personal quest is actually heavily related to his sexuality while it isn't the case with other LGBT characters in the franchise, I can see how it wasn't such a good idea to make him specifically flamboyant.

Either way, I really like him, he has a huge heart and is a really pleasant character to bring along. The guy quickly became my little elf's best friend, especially after that egghead Solas dumped me

TheShadowScout

Recremen wrote: »

Maybe Mannimarco is a trans man. Nobody knows!

I always had my suspiscion... I mean, come on, "King of Worms"??? Freud would have quite a few things to say about him naming his cronies the "Order of the Black Worm"... I mean, really... "black worm", doesn't that just hint at a great deal of envy concerning male body parts to you all? I always suspect they spend a lot of their time searching for potency runes in hopes of some magic to, uhm, 'enhance' their attributes...
Of course I am just joking. Maybe.

starkerealm

ADarklore wrote: »

What I disliked about DA:I is that the portrayals of LGBT was extremely stereotypical... Dorian was the exact image of a stereotype for gay men, it was a horrible representation of actual reality... Fenris on the other hand. What I think ESO does correctly is reduce the whole 'sex' aspect and makes it more about 'everyday life'... nothing unusual, nothing outrageous... just normal... which is how it should be.

Honestly, Dorian was one of the few party members I actually liked. And then they go off on the whole, "I'm gay, and my father is trying to fix me against my will," cliche.

Ironically, he probably would have been fine if they'd never actually been explicit about his sexuality. Instead his sexual preferences were the at the core of his personal quest.

Rosveen

greylox wrote: »

It's done perfectly, just another part of the story.

The day we stop using terms like homosexual etc is the day that we realise it's just another facet of humanity.

Just like we stopped using terms like "tall", "brave" or "hockey fan" because they're just facets of humanity?
There's nothing wrong with people describing themselves as they are. The problem starts when we attach too much value - either positive or negative - to any one of these qualities.

ContraTempo

One might contemplate what LGBT means in this context, given that there is no sex in Tamriel and however they reproduce it does not involve producing children. At least in the time of ESO. Nor, based on the nude pics we saw when some textures were failing to work, do they have genitalia, so the whole concept of gender as we know it may not apply.

TheShadowScout

ContraTempo wrote: »

One might contemplate what LGBT means in this context, given that there is no sex in Tamriel and however they reproduce it does not involve producing children. At least in the time of ESO. Nor, based on the nude pics we saw when some textures were failing to work, do they have genitalia, so the whole concept of gender as we know it may not apply.

Now wouldn't That be a game feature to hiss off the self-appointed "moral guardians"? A MMORPG game with genitalia (and crown store sold embiggerment options...) and minigames to use them? Just imagining the look on their faces...

JamilaRaj

Recremen wrote: »

JamilaRaj wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

I know a lot of other games have LGBT+ characters, but I'm completely enraptured with how normalized it all is. No jokes about it, no need to explain themselves, no getting defensive, and not making it the defining feature of the character. Instead, we get stories, just like everyone else. This couple is old, help them relive a treasured memory in their golden years before they pass on. This couple is young and are trying to build a life together, help them escape a gambling debt owed to a predatory casino owner. This lady got captured by pirates, help her girlfriend slay the kidnappers. Wonderful.

But if the girlfriend was kidnapped by pirates just some sailors, because they were homophobic pricks (despite otherwise fighting against Molag Bal or something and besides offering ridiculously OP reward, if you kidnap the other lady), drama level would go up substantially.
Certainly Tamriel would be more credible if filled with bigots, and even more with some evil LGBT characters too.
Utopia would be wonderful and commendable; a simulation of it can be just bland.

Tamriel is far from a Utopia, as evidenced by the fact that the lady's girlfriend was kidnapped by pirates. That doesn't happen in a perfect society! Nor does all the theft, murder, and political exploitation/turmoil.

Tamriel perhaps, but attitudes towards LGBT people are utopic. That it is rather one-dimensional utopia and the world in other ways sucks as usual (with some exceptions such as gender equality) only make it more markedly bizzare; as you say, theft, murder, political intrigue are common, yet no gay jokes, no need to explain oneself, no getting defensive, nowhere in Tamriel, across its different cultures, nothing whatsoever?

Recremen wrote: »

The media is completely saturated with stories about sad LGBT+ people and their sad gay lives, to the point where it's hard to find examples of gay characters who have anything in their lives going on besides being oppressed.

You mean hard to find examples of gay people etc. etc.? I do not think so, especially not with use of Wikipedia.

Recremen wrote: »

I don't feel it would add extra drama to the situation if the lady's girlfriend were captured by bigots, the fact that she was captured for anything is completely sufficient. It really wouldn't add some special new layer to the story, it would just be yet another example of the poor oppressed lesbian couple. There's really no reason to bring direct cognates of real-world social issues into the game since people belonging to targeted groups already have enough reminders of how terrible the world can be for them. Not to mention that a lot of writers just can't treat the material with the necessary sensitivity or nuance.

I think it would. See, pirates would do, but mere pirates, who would be in it for money, could be paid off and would not hurt the lady needlessly, whereas bigot pirates could not and definitely would; they would seek to cause as much harm as possible, therefore they are obviously not to be taken lightly!!!
Besides, piracy and kidnapping are real world issues too. I can imagine there may be dramatic plots unrelated to any real world issue (or what one thinks an issue is in the real world), but I suspect these would be thoroughly incomprehensible and dull.

Recremen wrote: »

As for having evil LGBT characters, it's really hard to say if we do or don't have them already. We almost never see much in the way of the romantic lives of villains, so it's plenty like that there's already a good spread of them. Maybe that lich at the bottom of Bahraha's Gloom was gay in life. Maybe that Dunmer at the end of Veteran Fungal Grotto is a lesbian. Maybe Mannimarco is a trans man. Nobody knows!

GreenhaloX

Vipstaakki wrote: »

GreenhaloX wrote: »

Yes.. cool, but it seems to go beyond just the standard LGBT in this game. In Hew's Bane, there's that female dark elf involved with the female Khajiit (is that how you spell it?) I forgot their names, but you do a side quest for the thieve guild to reunite them. Cool.. whatever works..

You mean Narani and Velsa.

Yeah, that's it.

Gidorick wrote: »

On Nirn, you just love who you love. No labels. Just love.

But there are some who scoff at inter-race relationships. Something I think ESO should just dive right in and support fully(shameless plug for my mixed race offspring concept: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/153977/eso-character-offspring-hybrid-races-concept/p1)

So true.. should be same in real life as well! To each it's own, I say. Whatever makes you happy in life. Would be cool to see how an interspecies character would look like, such as an elf and Khajiitt kid. Lol! Regarding the interracial aspects, some of the most good looking people I've seen are mixed.

Saoirse_Siobhan

Most previous comments have summed it up so well, so : Cookies for ZOS and everyone else!
Thank you @SerasWhip for this thread, GIANT Cookie for you!

ZOS_JohanaB

So we've gone through and cleaned up the thread a bit to keep the conversation encouraging and clean. Please remember to be appropriate and respectful to all, as Hate Speech will not be tolerated here. Check out the Community Rules to make sure your are following them.

SerasWhip

TheWhiteDarkness wrote: »

Most previous comments have summed it up so well, so : Cookies for ZOS and everyone else!
Thank you @SerasWhip for this thread, GIANT Cookie for you!

Yaaay!