Elder Scrolls and the LGBT Characters

SerasWhip · May 2016

ESO is probably the first game I saw involving LGBT NPC's. Although I am not a member of this community, it is really nice to see a planet where no one really cares about one's sexual choices, their religion and culture do not ban them and these kind of people socially have no differance from other characters. This may seem like an unnecesarry in-game detail, but I think it is a huge accomplishment, that may inspire all gaming communities worldwide.

Betheny · May 2016

I have to agree, they've shown some really nice relationships of all kinds through the story quests, and they haven't been cheapened by being badly stereotyped as well.

Phinix1 · May 2016

As a straight man, I have always subscribed to both the "if it harm none let it be" and the "don't ask don't tell" philosophies of morality and sexuality.

I agree it is nice to see these types of personal choices that affect no one but one's self and their partner in the privacy of their own lives rightly seen as non-issues, and none of the world's business.

On the planet I come from, certain people still become very hostile about such things. Rather petty considering the myriad serious challenges we face every day.

Maybe it helps people distance themselves from the larger problems by fixating on such minor trivialities as other people's personal preference in life partners.

Making mountains out of molehills helps them ignore the actual mountains.

Or something.

ProfessorKittyhawk · May 2016

As a member of the LGBT community, it's nice to see a realistic, positive portrayal in a game like this. I still love the quest

you gather flowers for the aging Bosmer who's husband is dying.

Such a simple yet beautiful, sweet quest.

GivvumBoane · May 2016

Bioware has done similar things with npc's. They have also done the interspecies relationships, kinda like ESO.

phaneub17_ESO · May 2016

I could make some real life comparisons, like the Ancient Greeks were accepting of homosexuality even have a way of explaining its occurrence as someone struck by the arrows from the mischievous God Euros, or his Roman name, Cupid. He also made people fall in love with animals which is also their explanation for bestiality, those who fall prey to his arrows cannot be undone, many did not try to fix the situation believing they would anger Euros, after all any attempts to reason with the God goes down poorly as he is very short tempered and turns into a frenzied demon when angered.

They also didn't really care which Gods you worshiped among their plethora pantheon as long as you worshiped something within their beliefs. It could be any of the high gods, their children, or their lesser servants. Of course this didn't work out for Socrates, who was executed for being an outspoken Atheist.

Betheny · May 2016

ProfessorKittyhawk wrote: »

As a member of the LGBT community, it's nice to see a realistic, positive portrayal in a game like this. I still love the quest
you gather flowers for the aging Bosmer who's husband is dying.
Such a simple yet beautiful, sweet quest.

I love that quest too, so touching.

Acrolas · May 2016

Labels are artificial constructs, LGBT included.

What ESO gets right is that it doesn't label. Good world-building is widespread acceptance of a characteristic without explanation. That goes just as much for behaviors and preferences as it does for technologies or cultural traits.

It just is. If you're spelling something out and it has no significant bearing on the larger themes of your narrative, then that's where you get into dangerous forms of exceptions, exclusions, or inclusions. Not by simply having it as a natural part of the world.

Korah_Eaglecry · May 2016

I love the fact that they never have to answer for it. There is no "YOURE WITH HIM/HER!" kind of responses. They just exist and thats it.

Abeille · May 2016

The hate between races is so big in this franchise that other kinds of prejudice are minimal.

I imagine that they couldn't care less who you fall in love with, as long as neither you or your partner are one of those "damn [hated race]".

TheShadowScout · May 2016

Personally I also enjoy the "matter of fact" way they tie such relationships into their stories. Not pointing extra at is in an "see we did something especially for the LGBT community, wooo", but just have it be part of the world, with none of the inhabitants of Tamriel finding anything remarkable about it. Be it quests like the flowers in greenshade, or the werewolf thing in bangkorai, the bearded lady in malabel tor or the captains wife rescue in grahtwood, comments overheard in the ebon flask or from a gladiator in reapers march...

Betheny · May 2016

Abeille wrote: »

The hate between races is so big in this franchise that other kinds of prejudice are minimal.

I imagine that they couldn't care less who you fall in love with, as long as neither you or your partner are one of those "damn [hated race]".

This very thing is what makes the Thieves Guild Velsa and Narahni quest so interesting and lovely.

Epona222 · May 2016

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Personally I also enjoy the "matter of fact" way they tie such relationships into their stories. Not pointing extra at is in an "see we did something especially for the LGBT community, wooo", but just have it be part of the world, with none of the inhabitants of Tamriel finding anything remarkable about it. Be it quests like the flowers in greenshade, or the werewolf thing in bangkorai, the bearded lady in malabel tor or the captains wife rescue in grahtwood, comments overheard in the ebon flask or from a gladiator in reapers march...

Agreed, the populace of Tamriel doesn't ever remark about it, it just is, and I like that.

Abeille · May 2016

Betheny wrote: »

Abeille wrote: »

The hate between races is so big in this franchise that other kinds of prejudice are minimal.

I imagine that they couldn't care less who you fall in love with, as long as neither you or your partner are one of those "damn [hated race]".

This very thing is what makes the Thieves Guild Velsa and Narahni quest so interesting and lovely.

Yes! I love that quest so much! Thieves Guild characters are, in my opinion, extremely well-written and believable, and I couldn't help but smile at the end of that quest. I was very happy for them.

Betheny · May 2016

Abeille wrote: »

Betheny wrote: »

Abeille wrote: »

The hate between races is so big in this franchise that other kinds of prejudice are minimal.

I imagine that they couldn't care less who you fall in love with, as long as neither you or your partner are one of those "damn [hated race]".

This very thing is what makes the Thieves Guild Velsa and Narahni quest so interesting and lovely.

Yes! I love that quest so much! Thieves Guild characters are, in my opinion, extremely well-written and believable, and I couldn't help but smile at the end of that quest. I was very happy for them.

So was I. I hung around and played them a lute tune or two, till they made it clear to me they wanted me to go away and let them continue their reunion party in private

RAGUNAnoOne · May 2016

They even have a netch in coldharbour that is transgender has anyone else seen it?

GreenhaloX · May 2016

Yes.. cool, but it seems to go beyond just the standard LGBT in this game. In Hew's Bane, there's that female dark elf involved with the female Khajiit (is that how you spell it?) I forgot their names, but you do a side quest for the thieve guild to reunite them. Cool.. whatever works..

Vipstaakki · May 2016

GreenhaloX wrote: »

Yes.. cool, but it seems to go beyond just the standard LGBT in this game. In Hew's Bane, there's that female dark elf involved with the female Khajiit (is that how you spell it?) I forgot their names, but you do a side quest for the thieve guild to reunite them. Cool.. whatever works..

You mean Narani and Velsa.

Daraugh · May 2016

Acrolas wrote: »

Labels are artificial constructs, LGBT included.

What ESO gets right is that it doesn't label. Good world-building is widespread acceptance of a characteristic without explanation. That goes just as much for behaviors and preferences as it does for technologies or cultural traits.

It just is. If you're spelling something out and it has no significant bearing on the larger themes of your narrative, then that's where you get into dangerous forms of exceptions, exclusions, or inclusions. Not by simply having it as a natural part of the world.

This is so true. Everything simply is, it takes fear to make it all into something it isn't.

It's why I love this. No labels, no exclusions, no "I" or "them", it's a hope, a prayer and a mantra: May all beings have happiness, may they be free from suffering, may they find the joy that has never known suffering, may they be free from attachment and hatred.

Gidorick · May 2016

Thanks for starting this thread @SerasWhip . I would have to say the thing I like the most about the way ZOS, like others, is that it's just accepted and there's no mention of the fact that it's accepted. It's just the way the culture is. The instances of bigotry I see is between inter-race (Like Khajiit and Redguard) relationships. I imagine that, in a world with multiple intelligent races, it would be very much like that and it's a convenient way to explore the subject of bigotry without bringing in real world issues.

I do actually have a question for a member of the LGBT community that identifies themselves as a Transgender. I have a question regarding to real world Transgender persons and ESO's representation of their culture. It's a question out of ignorance and curiosity. If you're willing to entertain what might seem to be a silly question please PM me. I've never been in a situation on the forums where I felt it would be appropriate to ask for this correspondence and this thread seems to be as good as it would get.

Gidorick · May 2016

GreenhaloX wrote: »

Yes.. cool, but it seems to go beyond just the standard LGBT in this game. In Hew's Bane, there's that female dark elf involved with the female Khajiit (is that how you spell it?) I forgot their names, but you do a side quest for the thieve guild to reunite them. Cool.. whatever works..

On Nirn, you just love who you love. No labels. Just love.

But there are some who scoff at inter-race relationships. Something I think ESO should just dive right in and support fully(shameless plug for my mixed race offspring concept: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/153977/eso-character-offspring-hybrid-races-concept/p1)

Volkodav · May 2016

I have never noticed anything that is LGBT myself.Of course,I dont look for things like that. I dont pay attention to that stuff at all.If it is there,I wouldnt know.Well,except for one or two instances.
I think of ESO as a fantasy type game,and dont add real life issues into it.
However,to each their own.

Rosveen · May 2016

Gidorick wrote: »

I have a question regarding to real world Transgender persons and ESO's representation of their culture.

Is there actually any? I don't remember any transgender NPCs in ESO, just that one transspecies(?) Argonian.

SerasWhip wrote: »

ESO is probably the first game I saw involving LGBT NPC's.

Not a fan of Bioware, I see.

Actually, even the Elder Scrolls series had several LGBT characters in the past and both Skyrim and Fallout 4 allow you to romance/marry people regardless of their gender.

Vidahr · May 2016

GW2 also has a lot of LGBT characters. Even two of the main story characters are lesbians (Kasmeer and Marjory)! There's also a transgender character who openly talks about how he used to be a woman, it's great!

ESO is definitely an amazing game for having LGBT characters too!

Abeille · May 2016

Rosveen wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

I have a question regarding to real world Transgender persons and ESO's representation of their culture.

Is there actually any? I don't remember any transgender NPCs in ESO, just that one transspecies(?) Argonian.

There is a bearded Nord in a dress, who is a circus performer (a "bearded woman"), and who is referred to as a woman despite having a male model. That's in Malabal Tor, north of Velyn Harbor. But I think that was actually meant to be the old "man in a dress" joke, because of the way it is presented, and not representation of trans people, unfortunately.

Dragon Age: Inquisition had a trans person, and he was very well-written in my opinion (like most DA characters, really). ESO could do something like that too.

TheShadowScout · May 2016

Rosveen wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

I have a question regarding to real world Transgender persons and ESO's representation of their culture.

Is there actually any? I don't remember any transgender NPCs in ESO, just that one transspecies(?) Argonian.

I don't think I really can recall one myself... closest might be that "bearded lady" type in malabel tor, but... well... that one may be more a matter of the classic circus folk clichee...

In fact, the only TG NPC I ever recall from a game was one in Dragon Age 2, a cute elf in the brothel who was implied to have a certain surprise for your player character... and a certain mage in Baldurs Gate, though that was most likely a certain cursed item I recall from my olde AD&D days (be careful with those girdles you find in dungeons, boys and girls... not all of them increase your strength) not that I played all too many games, so there may be others, though.

Genomic · May 2016

You can't have played many games then.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_characters_in_video_games

Recremen · May 2016

I know a lot of other games have LGBT+ characters, but I'm completely enraptured with how normalized it all is. No jokes about it, no need to explain themselves, no getting defensive, and not making it the defining feature of the character. Instead, we get stories, just like everyone else. This couple is old, help them relive a treasured memory in their golden years before they pass on. This couple is young and are trying to build a life together, help them escape a gambling debt owed to a predatory casino owner. This lady got captured by pirates, help her girlfriend slay the kidnappers. Wonderful.

failkiwib16_ESO · May 2016

More diversity is not a bad thing either, to maintain my attention ^^ I see it more as a creation of the writers of the lore, so as long as it entertains and interests me, I will continue reading and questing.

For those who feel better connected or acknowledged through the game, I think it's a huge plus.

Caeric · May 2016

This, too, is my favorite so far:

ProfessorKittyhawk wrote: »

As a member of the LGBT community, it's nice to see a realistic, positive portrayal in a game like this. I still love the quest
you gather flowers for the aging Bosmer who's husband is dying.
Such a simple yet beautiful, sweet quest.

It is nice to experience a game in which such diversity is unexpectedly presented (from our point of view) but in such a common and normal way that for the inhabitants of this world there is no question, no hesitation, no worry that someone might find out. It is a reminder of what could be, a glimpse into our own hoped-for future where people are just permitted to be who they are and love who they love.

Thank you, ZOS, for getting this right.

starkerealm · May 2016

Genomic wrote: »

You can't have played many games then.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_characters_in_video_games

What's unusual is that they're presented in such a normative state, rather than the game going, "hey, look guys, look! We can be inclusive! Guys? Look! It's lesbians! That's hot, right?" In that sense, ESO is unusual. Not unique, but unusual.

Compare this to something like Dragon Age: Inquisition that uses a trans character as a blunt instrument, saying, "hey, look how much more enlightened we are than you," by force feeding some insensitive as hell lines down your character's throat.