Final: Craft Bags for ESO plus members only! Please, share your opinion about the rest of us.

Sunburnt_Penguin

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Sunburnt_Penguin wrote: »

Volkodav wrote: »

Sunburnt_Penguin wrote: »

Other:
Introduce some sort of loyalty system that gives non-subs Crafting Bags according to a certain requirement (e.g. Purchased all DLCs, has spent over a certain amount in the Crown Store relative to when they started playing, etc).

I get the argument that subs reduce risk by giving projected sales but regular Crown Store purchasers also do as well. If the amount of cash spent is the same, the monetary value of ESO is the same and therefore the same benefits should be given. Realistically, there's no difference between these two groups seeing as subs can also stop spending cash very quickly.

BUT,..can ZOS guarantee that Crown Store purchasers will always buy a certain amount of crowns every month though?
That's the thing. Subbers can be guaranteed to pay their subs.At least those who have been subbing for some time.They tend to stick with it.

I can stop my sub today and not pay any more money which is the same as a non-sub. If the cash paid between a sub and a non-sub is the same, they therefore share the same monetary value of ESO are also subject to same risk.

Not quite.
I mean, I can see where you might think it would, but there are additional factor involved.

Yes, like you said, you could drop your sub at any time. At lets say you do, that's a flat amount of money per month removed from the pool. The fact that subs are the same amount every month allows the financial planners to make more reliable estimates because they can work in increments.

Second, there's the issue of laziness, this is more of a psychological issue, but it's real and it's there. Folks tend to be lazy. If they actually have to put effort into something they're less inclined to do it. In order to cancel your subscription you are required to take action; go to the site, find the right buttons, click the right buttons, etc. This means that players are less likely to cancel their sub during any given game period simply because it requires them to actually do something. This, too, can be factored into and estimation.

The thing with subs is that since they are incremental and estimably reliable, OS can look at their number of subs an past trends an say, "We anticipate a gain or loss of X-amount of subs in the next quarter." And they can translate that number into a dollar figure giving them a rough budget.


The Crown Store, though, is exactly the opposite. Firstly, there's no telling how much merchandise people are going to purchase. They Crowns in little bundles because it adds an element of incrementality to the purchase, but it's still pretty unreliable. Why? Because that laziness issue which works in ZOS favor when it comes to subs actually works against them when it comes to Crowns. Getting more Crowns requires player action.

That's why you can buy Crowns right there in game, but you have to hunt own the un-subscribe button on the internet somewhere. Because they want it to be as easy as possible to buy things, but more difficult to well, un-buy things. Then, of course, there's the possibility that the latest package of outfits or whatever they're selling aren't well received. Aesthetics and community reception are factors which virtually don't even apply to subbed customers.

Subs like the game as is and are enjoying what they have. ZOS doesn't have to convince them to buy more. All they have to do is not screw it up.

Crown purchases are fickle and significantly less reliable for a number of reasons that aren't even listed here. If ZOS wants people to buy Crowns they have to continue to offer new and exciting things.

Yeah I completely agree with your points on;
- Laziness in not cancelling the sub increasing the subs' importance to ZOS
- Community reception is a risk

In regards financial planning and budgets: I agree that when assessing the seperate groups of subs and non-subs as a whole, the former is much more reliable for this. However, that's because the latter include impulsive and sporadic purchasers (who may - for example - buy one DLC/mount/costume etc and not buy the next) which increases the uncertainty of future Crown Store sales for this group as a whole.

So if you solely look at the sub-group of non-subs who over an extended period of time consistently spend as much each month as a sub (the group at which I believe should get Crafting Bags via some 'reward' mechanism) then their reliability of future spending/repeat purchases is largely comparable to the subs.

Their Demand Elasticity of the Crown Store items is so low that they're not affected by the 'community reception' factor (over their respective periods of time) and so the only factor which truly seperates these from subs is the laziness of subs in not cancelling when they want to. In which, IMO, is not a valid reason for excluding this particular sub-group of non-subs from Crafting Bags.

Massive_Stain

Make Craft Bags ESO plus exclusive, but I'm alright with increasing inventory for everyone.

Why not remove the cap on total items, and switch it to weight?

Iluvrien

Make Craft Bags ESO plus exclusive, and DO NOT increase the inventory of other players.

Sunburnt_Penguin wrote: »

Their Demand Elasticity of the Crown Store items is so low that they're not affected by the 'community reception' factor (over their respective periods of time) and so the only factor which truly seperates these from subs is the laziness of subs in not cancelling when they want to. In which, IMO, is not a valid reason for excluding this particular sub-group of non-subs from Crafting Bags.

So, let us assume that you get what you are arguing for. The crafting bags are made available to all players irrespective of payment/non-payment habits. What would you offer to subs to take the place of the Crafting Bags as a subscriber benefit to keep them subbing/entice new subs?

Massive_Stain

Make Craft Bags ESO plus exclusive, but I'm alright with increasing inventory for everyone.

Iluvrien wrote: »

Sunburnt_Penguin wrote: »

Their Demand Elasticity of the Crown Store items is so low that they're not affected by the 'community reception' factor (over their respective periods of time) and so the only factor which truly seperates these from subs is the laziness of subs in not cancelling when they want to. In which, IMO, is not a valid reason for excluding this particular sub-group of non-subs from Crafting Bags.

So, let us assume that you get what you are arguing for. The crafting bags are made available to all players irrespective of payment/non-payment habits. What would you offer to subs to take the place of the Crafting Bags as a subscriber benefit to keep them subbing/entice new subs?

Unlimited bank space + Free assistants.

Lysette

Make Craft Bags ESO plus exclusive, but I'm alright with increasing inventory for everyone.

I think there should be some more extra space in inventory from the very beginning, especially now, where with the DB DLC there will be new oils for poison crafting which will take up a few more slots in the inventory - not for us subscribers though, but in general it would be a good idea to have some more slots from the very start - newbies struggle with inventory space, because they do not have a clue yet, what is important to keep and what not - so they keep all kind of trash as well.

Sunburnt_Penguin

Iluvrien wrote: »

Sunburnt_Penguin wrote: »

Their Demand Elasticity of the Crown Store items is so low that they're not affected by the 'community reception' factor (over their respective periods of time) and so the only factor which truly seperates these from subs is the laziness of subs in not cancelling when they want to. In which, IMO, is not a valid reason for excluding this particular sub-group of non-subs from Crafting Bags.

So, let us assume that you get what you are arguing for. The crafting bags are made available to all players irrespective of payment/non-payment habits. What would you offer to subs to take the place of the Crafting Bags as a subscriber benefit to keep them subbing/entice new subs?

Please L2Read because if you would have read my previous comments rather than selecting a paragraph from one comment then you'd have realised that:
1. I'm not saying they should be available to all players: only those non-subs who have spent just as much money on Crown Store purchases as subs do for their sub.
2. I wouldn't be inclined to offer subs anything else extra because I don't see why we deserve it. We get benefits already as they are marginal at best, it leads to believe that most people sub out of convenience.

Iluvrien

Make Craft Bags ESO plus exclusive, and DO NOT increase the inventory of other players.

Sunburnt_Penguin wrote: »

Iluvrien wrote: »

Sunburnt_Penguin wrote: »

Their Demand Elasticity of the Crown Store items is so low that they're not affected by the 'community reception' factor (over their respective periods of time) and so the only factor which truly seperates these from subs is the laziness of subs in not cancelling when they want to. In which, IMO, is not a valid reason for excluding this particular sub-group of non-subs from Crafting Bags.

So, let us assume that you get what you are arguing for. The crafting bags are made available to all players irrespective of payment/non-payment habits. What would you offer to subs to take the place of the Crafting Bags as a subscriber benefit to keep them subbing/entice new subs?

Please L2Read because if you would have read my previous comments rather than selecting a paragraph from one comment then you'd have realised that:
1. I'm not saying they should be available to all players: only those non-subs who have spent just as much money on Crown Store purchases as subs do for their sub.
2. I wouldn't be inclined to offer subs anything else extra because I don't see why we deserve it. We get benefits already as they are marginal at best, it leads to believe that most people sub out of convenience.

The only reason I quoted a single paragraph is because quoting the whole post was a waste of screen space. I didn't take your comment out of context. I said they should be made available, I never said it would be done entirely for free. So lets look at the details here:

1. How would you measure this? Honestly. Would you grant crafting bags to a player when they spent more than $15 in the Crown Store? Would that last for the rest of the month, 30 days from the day of the purchase, or would the status tick down to nothing over time, or until they made another purchase, and then remove their ability to add materials to it until they "topped-up" again? Would you keep the value static (i.e. $15 anywhere in the world) or would you check where the player was logging in from and measure against that?

What you are suggesting has the potential to be incredibly complex... not least for ZOS to code and maintain.


2. ZOS disagrees with you, and they have the metrics. Considering this, is it possible that your assumption (sub for convenience) could do with being reconsidered? People in this thread have said they have subbed for the increased utility. Obviously things like this entice some people. Why not try and entice more?

Declaration of a possible vested interest: I say that as someone who has had an unbroken sub since PC early access.

[EDIT: Removal of a certain amount of snark]

newtinmpls

Make Craft Bags ESO plus exclusive, but I'm alright with increasing inventory for everyone.

Fukutsu wrote: »

I feel like it should be something like, if you subscribed for 12 months, you get to keep whatever DLC's that were released in that twelve months.

If you sub for all this time, you certainly have enough crowns to do this. Almost as if it was intended that way

Fukutsu wrote: »

I just think benefits should be good enough for subscribers to be happy they sub'ed and non subs to be temped to sign up.

Do you realize this actually goes against your first point? And you even clarify it later:

Fukutsu wrote: »

Plus, there was nothing appealing about a membership to me, anyway. .

ShedsHisTail

Allow Inventory space to be increased for the price of gold beyond the 140 space limit.

Sunburnt_Penguin wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Sunburnt_Penguin wrote: »

Volkodav wrote: »

Sunburnt_Penguin wrote: »

Other:
Introduce some sort of loyalty system that gives non-subs Crafting Bags according to a certain requirement (e.g. Purchased all DLCs, has spent over a certain amount in the Crown Store relative to when they started playing, etc).

I get the argument that subs reduce risk by giving projected sales but regular Crown Store purchasers also do as well. If the amount of cash spent is the same, the monetary value of ESO is the same and therefore the same benefits should be given. Realistically, there's no difference between these two groups seeing as subs can also stop spending cash very quickly.

BUT,..can ZOS guarantee that Crown Store purchasers will always buy a certain amount of crowns every month though?
That's the thing. Subbers can be guaranteed to pay their subs.At least those who have been subbing for some time.They tend to stick with it.

I can stop my sub today and not pay any more money which is the same as a non-sub. If the cash paid between a sub and a non-sub is the same, they therefore share the same monetary value of ESO are also subject to same risk.

Not quite.
I mean, I can see where you might think it would, but there are additional factor involved.

Yes, like you said, you could drop your sub at any time. At lets say you do, that's a flat amount of money per month removed from the pool. The fact that subs are the same amount every month allows the financial planners to make more reliable estimates because they can work in increments.

Second, there's the issue of laziness, this is more of a psychological issue, but it's real and it's there. Folks tend to be lazy. If they actually have to put effort into something they're less inclined to do it. In order to cancel your subscription you are required to take action; go to the site, find the right buttons, click the right buttons, etc. This means that players are less likely to cancel their sub during any given game period simply because it requires them to actually do something. This, too, can be factored into and estimation.

The thing with subs is that since they are incremental and estimably reliable, OS can look at their number of subs an past trends an say, "We anticipate a gain or loss of X-amount of subs in the next quarter." And they can translate that number into a dollar figure giving them a rough budget.


The Crown Store, though, is exactly the opposite. Firstly, there's no telling how much merchandise people are going to purchase. They Crowns in little bundles because it adds an element of incrementality to the purchase, but it's still pretty unreliable. Why? Because that laziness issue which works in ZOS favor when it comes to subs actually works against them when it comes to Crowns. Getting more Crowns requires player action.

That's why you can buy Crowns right there in game, but you have to hunt own the un-subscribe button on the internet somewhere. Because they want it to be as easy as possible to buy things, but more difficult to well, un-buy things. Then, of course, there's the possibility that the latest package of outfits or whatever they're selling aren't well received. Aesthetics and community reception are factors which virtually don't even apply to subbed customers.

Subs like the game as is and are enjoying what they have. ZOS doesn't have to convince them to buy more. All they have to do is not screw it up.

Crown purchases are fickle and significantly less reliable for a number of reasons that aren't even listed here. If ZOS wants people to buy Crowns they have to continue to offer new and exciting things.

Yeah I completely agree with your points on;
- Laziness in not cancelling the sub increasing the subs' importance to ZOS
- Community reception is a risk

In regards financial planning and budgets: I agree that when assessing the seperate groups of subs and non-subs as a whole, the former is much more reliable for this. However, that's because the latter include impulsive and sporadic purchasers (who may - for example - buy one DLC/mount/costume etc and not buy the next) which increases the uncertainty of future Crown Store sales for this group as a whole.

So if you solely look at the sub-group of non-subs who over an extended period of time consistently spend as much each month as a sub (the group at which I believe should get Crafting Bags via some 'reward' mechanism) then their reliability of future spending/repeat purchases is largely comparable to the subs.

Their Demand Elasticity of the Crown Store items is so low that they're not affected by the 'community reception' factor (over their respective periods of time) and so the only factor which truly seperates these from subs is the laziness of subs in not cancelling when they want to. In which, IMO, is not a valid reason for excluding this particular sub-group of non-subs from Crafting Bags.

Dunno what to tell you, man.

I see what you're saying, yeah, there is a particular sub-group of players who spend $15.00 worth of Crowns every month but aren't subbed, and I see why you'd feel they deserve this as well. However, I'd imagine if those people were to receive the crafting bag it would have to come with the same stipulations; if you don't continue to purchase $15.00 worth of Crowns each month, you lose the use of said bag, just like a subscriber who cancels their subscription.

Ultimately, I think folks are looking at this whole thing wrong. The idea isn't to punish non-subscribers, or even reward long time sub-holders... I suspect it's primarily to incentivize -new- subscriptions. Give the people like you mentioned, who buy all the DLC and spend the money anyway each month, a reason to commit. But you can't just give it to new-subs without also giving it to existing subs... Otherwise you lose subs.

Again, please keep in mind that I'm all for giving non-subs a means of further increasing their bank space with in-game gold. That's fine, stuff like that takes gold out of the economy and keeps prices reasonable all around. But the crafting bag seems like a nice perk for subbed-players.

newtinmpls

Make Craft Bags ESO plus exclusive, but I'm alright with increasing inventory for everyone.

dwtdwtdwt wrote: »

But we are taking about a bag that will change bank and bag inventory in an astronomical way for the game. And I'm really not exaggerating.

I have to say I'm impressed that after discontinuing the "loyalty pets" ZoS has come up with something for subscribers.

I'm also impressed that it is clearly both 1-something significant, and 2-NOT a pay-to-win thing

Blackbird71

newtinmpls wrote: »

Sunburnt_Penguin wrote: »

I can stop my sub today and not pay any more money which is the same as a non-sub. If the cash paid between a sub and a non-sub is the same, they therefore share the same monetary value of ESO are also subject to same risk.

And (to continue the commitment metaphor) if you are married, you can divorce.

But there is still a certain class of ... subject (MMORPG or potential spouse/date) that likes to reserve the "good stuff" to someone who actually commits.

That is in no way an accurate comparison. When you marry, you make a commitment to continue that marriage for the rest of your lives; divorce is a breach of that commitment.

When you subscribe, you make no commitment of any sort that you will continue to subscribe. For each period of a subscription, be it 30, 60, 90, or however many days, you pay in advance for access during that period of time. Once that time has completed, you have no obligation to continue your subscription; you are free to re-evaluate and decide whether to purchase another time period of access. There is no penalty or breach of commitment if you choose not to do so. The fact that a subscription can be set to auto-renew at the end of each time period is not a commitment of any sort, as this can be just as easily cancelled, again without any sort of penalty or negative consequence for doing so.

A game subscription is not a commitment, it is a convenience!

As a married individual, I have to add that I find the fact that you would compare the commitment of marriage to a game subscription to be grossly insulting. If you truly think the two are in any way similar, do not expect any of your relationships in life to last for any significant period of time.

Blackbird71

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

I see what you're saying, yeah, there is a particular sub-group of players who spend $15.00 worth of Crowns every month but aren't subbed, and I see why you'd feel they deserve this as well. However, I'd imagine if those people were to receive the crafting bag it would have to come with the same stipulations; if you don't continue to purchase $15.00 worth of Crowns each month, you lose the use of said bag, just like a subscriber who cancels their subscription.

Do non-subs who have purchased DLC expansions through the Crown Store lose access to those expansions if they stop purchasing crowns? What about assistants? Mounts? Pets? Riding skill upgrades? Inventory upgrades? This is not the model ZOS uses. If ZOS were to make these bags available to non-subscribers, it should use the same model as everything else available to them; purchase it and keep it.

For that matter, ZOS could probably get quite a price for these in the Crown Store; they could easily charge as much or more than they do for the assistants. I'd personally consider that overpriced, but I know there are many who would pay that much for the convenience. With that in mind, I'm actually surprised these aren't being added to the Crown Store; it seems like ZOS is missing out on potential income. I can only figure that they are banking on this being a gimmick to draw in new subscriptions. Personally though, I think that while the convenience would be nice, if a subscription does not already offer enough to convince me to subscribe, these bags are hardly going to tip the scales.

Taisynn

Make Craft Bags ESO plus exclusive, and DO NOT increase the inventory of other players.

Taisynn wrote: »

May I also reiterate:

Subscriber's LOSE access to the DLC's the moment they stop paying. Poof. No more access even though you've been paying for ages.

We don't get them "free." They're gone the moment we cancel.

And the stipend of crowns? Cheaper just to buy the crowns outright.

The extra experience, research time, and gold is hardly anything. I don't make anymore than non-subscribers do. Hell, only way to really get "rich" is to join a trading guild, and what you get is influenced by DROP RATE not GOLD RATE.

And I pay extra, have to buy extra crowns, in order to afford the costumes, mounts, and pets. I also bought my banker in addition to my subscription!

I pay more than you and then some. The difference is, even if you do somehow manage to pay more than me (doubt it), is that you don't lose access to your DLC or content if you chose to stop paying. You still have access to all of it.

I stop paying? Goodbye the investment I made.

Let us ESO+ members have ONE NICE THING THAT IS WORTH IT.

newtinmpls

Make Craft Bags ESO plus exclusive, but I'm alright with increasing inventory for everyone.

Ahhh.. someone who picked up on my metaphor. I don't care if you agree or disagree, I just thought it was useful and might inspire thought.

Sunburnt_Penguin wrote: »

I can stop my sub today and not pay any more money which is the same as a non-sub. If the cash paid between a sub and a non-sub is the same, they therefore share the same monetary value of ESO are also subject to same risk.

Was the original comment I was replying to.

newtinmpls wrote: »

And (to continue the commitment metaphor) if you are married, you can divorce.

But there is still a certain class of ... subject (MMORPG or potential spouse/date) that likes to reserve the "good stuff" to someone who actually commits.

Blackbird71 wrote: »

That is in no way an accurate comparison. When you marry, you make a commitment to continue that marriage for the rest of your lives; divorce is a breach of that commitment.

When you subscribe, you make no commitment of any sort that you will continue to subscribe. For each period of a subscription, be it 30, 60, 90, or however many days, you pay in advance for access during that period of time. Once that time has completed, you have no obligation to continue your subscription; you are free to re-evaluate and decide whether to purchase another time period of access. There is no penalty or breach of commitment if you choose not to do so. The fact that a subscription can be set to auto-renew at the end of each time period is not a commitment of any sort, as this can be just as easily cancelled, again without any sort of penalty or negative consequence for doing so.

I see a huge difference between "I will date you, and expected to gain all the (numerous and nummy) benefits of our "relationship", as compared to "I will marry you, knowing full well that we may choose at some time to end that marriage for any reason (or none). Note in this metaphor I am presuming a non-cohabiting relationship.

Blackbird71 wrote: »

A game subscription is not a commitment, it is a convenience!

Living with someone and getting all the numerous and nummy benefits is much more of a convenience (which is why I specified non-cohabiting above) than dating and maybe even spending more, but not being willing to commit. They kind of go together.

Blackbird71 wrote: »

As a married individual, I have to add that I find the fact that you would compare the commitment of marriage to a game subscription to be grossly insulting. If you truly think the two are in any way similar, do not expect any of your relationships in life to last for any significant period of time.

I'm married. My spouse is online (and was highly amused and agreeable to my metaphor). Been together ... 36 years.

And as I said to my future-mother-in-law when discussing something that was none of her business:

"why buy the cow when you can get the milk free?"

Hence. Subs get the good stuff.
.

nimander99

Make Craft Bags ESO plus exclusive, and DO NOT increase the inventory of other players.

Lets not forget that y'all could sub for one month, hoard as much crafting mats as possible then cancel and have all those mats chillin for use whenever.

nimander99

Make Craft Bags ESO plus exclusive, and DO NOT increase the inventory of other players.

Acrolas wrote: »

nimander99 wrote: »

I hope this forces all you cheap bastids to pay some money which makes our game better in the long run. Stop being so cheap.

Disney Infinity made a billion dollars in about three years.
Canceled.
Strong licenses, explosive initial growth.
Canceled.
Market leader in its genre.
Canceled.

There are so many huge and expensive variables outside the scope of my wallet that thinking that $15 or so a month is ever going to make a difference is... reckless. Popularity is a collective yet nebulous force, and if ZOS can't sustain it, that's not on me. That's entirely on them.

If it comes down to either listening to community sales cheerleaders or letting the sky fall, then by all means, let it fall. Because I've never seen a sales cheerleader in the know. Every single one does it for their own personal interest in the game as opposed to any solid financial proof.

Crafting bags, exclusive in-game club, sparkle hover ponies - there's no bait on the end of that hook that will ever make me change my position. ZeniMax can shut ZOS down next year if they want to, regardless of sales. I don't control the outcome, and neither does anyone else regardless of how many crowns they've purchased or how many months they've been subscribed. I will never be charitable toward ignorance. Nobody knows right now when this is all ending and for what reason.

My sub doesn't matter, and neither does yours.

My sub matters to me, it makes me feel like I am supporting a game I love and doing my part to make sure it remains playable... But that's just me.

Sunburnt_Penguin

Iluvrien wrote: »

Sunburnt_Penguin wrote: »

Iluvrien wrote: »

Sunburnt_Penguin wrote: »

Their Demand Elasticity of the Crown Store items is so low that they're not affected by the 'community reception' factor (over their respective periods of time) and so the only factor which truly seperates these from subs is the laziness of subs in not cancelling when they want to. In which, IMO, is not a valid reason for excluding this particular sub-group of non-subs from Crafting Bags.

So, let us assume that you get what you are arguing for. The crafting bags are made available to all players irrespective of payment/non-payment habits. What would you offer to subs to take the place of the Crafting Bags as a subscriber benefit to keep them subbing/entice new subs?

Please L2Read because if you would have read my previous comments rather than selecting a paragraph from one comment then you'd have realised that:
1. I'm not saying they should be available to all players: only those non-subs who have spent just as much money on Crown Store purchases as subs do for their sub.
2. I wouldn't be inclined to offer subs anything else extra because I don't see why we deserve it. We get benefits already as they are marginal at best, it leads to believe that most people sub out of convenience.

The only reason I quoted a single paragraph is because quoting the whole post was a waste of screen space. I didn't take your comment out of context. I said they should be made available, I never said it would be done entirely for free. So lets look at the details here:

1. How would you measure this? Honestly. Would you grant crafting bags to a player when they spent more than $15 in the Crown Store? Would that last for the rest of the month, 30 days from the day of the purchase, or would the status tick down to nothing over time, or until they made another purchase, and then remove their ability to add materials to it until they "topped-up" again? Would you keep the value static (i.e. $15 anywhere in the world) or would you check where the player was logging in from and measure against that?

What you are suggesting has the potential to be incredibly complex... not least for ZOS to code and maintain.


2. ZOS disagrees with you, and they have the metrics. Considering this, is it possible that your assumption (sub for convenience) could do with being reconsidered? People in this thread have said they have subbed for the increased utility. Obviously things like this entice some people. Why not try and entice more?

Declaration of a possible vested interest: I say that as someone who has had an unbroken sub since PC early access.

[EDIT: Removal of a certain amount of snark]

@ 1. I really don't know how this would be measured reliably, however, the best method I thought of would be a minimum monthly spend which accumulates over time (e.g. $30 spent in month 1 and $0 in month 2 secures the Crafting Bag until end of month 2) and also retrospectively (e.g. A person has had ESO for 5 months before Crafting Bags came in to effect and has spent $150 in the Store, therefore they have secured the Crafting Bag for 5 months after release). I admit that this may be difficult to implement and control, however, I don't believe that just because it may not be technically feasible therefore deems it just and fair.

@ 2.
1. Metrics-sMetrics, I'm talking about my moral opinion on how I don't see it fair in offering different benefits to different groups who spend the same amount of cash each month just by their method of payment. ZOS' business strategy obviously disagrees with that but it doesn't mean that either ZOS or myself are wrong in our views.
2. I have also seen someone in this thread saying that people are inherently lazy (which I agreed upon), thus will not stop the sub when they want and also that Crown Store purchases may be less because of this laziness. Therefore I don't believe my assumption that people sub out of convenience could do with being reconsidered.

P.S I'm intrigued about the snark that was removed

Sunburnt_Penguin

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Sunburnt_Penguin wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Sunburnt_Penguin wrote: »

Volkodav wrote: »

Sunburnt_Penguin wrote: »

Other:
Introduce some sort of loyalty system that gives non-subs Crafting Bags according to a certain requirement (e.g. Purchased all DLCs, has spent over a certain amount in the Crown Store relative to when they started playing, etc).

I get the argument that subs reduce risk by giving projected sales but regular Crown Store purchasers also do as well. If the amount of cash spent is the same, the monetary value of ESO is the same and therefore the same benefits should be given. Realistically, there's no difference between these two groups seeing as subs can also stop spending cash very quickly.

BUT,..can ZOS guarantee that Crown Store purchasers will always buy a certain amount of crowns every month though?
That's the thing. Subbers can be guaranteed to pay their subs.At least those who have been subbing for some time.They tend to stick with it.

I can stop my sub today and not pay any more money which is the same as a non-sub. If the cash paid between a sub and a non-sub is the same, they therefore share the same monetary value of ESO are also subject to same risk.

Not quite.
I mean, I can see where you might think it would, but there are additional factor involved.

Yes, like you said, you could drop your sub at any time. At lets say you do, that's a flat amount of money per month removed from the pool. The fact that subs are the same amount every month allows the financial planners to make more reliable estimates because they can work in increments.

Second, there's the issue of laziness, this is more of a psychological issue, but it's real and it's there. Folks tend to be lazy. If they actually have to put effort into something they're less inclined to do it. In order to cancel your subscription you are required to take action; go to the site, find the right buttons, click the right buttons, etc. This means that players are less likely to cancel their sub during any given game period simply because it requires them to actually do something. This, too, can be factored into and estimation.

The thing with subs is that since they are incremental and estimably reliable, OS can look at their number of subs an past trends an say, "We anticipate a gain or loss of X-amount of subs in the next quarter." And they can translate that number into a dollar figure giving them a rough budget.


The Crown Store, though, is exactly the opposite. Firstly, there's no telling how much merchandise people are going to purchase. They Crowns in little bundles because it adds an element of incrementality to the purchase, but it's still pretty unreliable. Why? Because that laziness issue which works in ZOS favor when it comes to subs actually works against them when it comes to Crowns. Getting more Crowns requires player action.

That's why you can buy Crowns right there in game, but you have to hunt own the un-subscribe button on the internet somewhere. Because they want it to be as easy as possible to buy things, but more difficult to well, un-buy things. Then, of course, there's the possibility that the latest package of outfits or whatever they're selling aren't well received. Aesthetics and community reception are factors which virtually don't even apply to subbed customers.

Subs like the game as is and are enjoying what they have. ZOS doesn't have to convince them to buy more. All they have to do is not screw it up.

Crown purchases are fickle and significantly less reliable for a number of reasons that aren't even listed here. If ZOS wants people to buy Crowns they have to continue to offer new and exciting things.

Yeah I completely agree with your points on;
- Laziness in not cancelling the sub increasing the subs' importance to ZOS
- Community reception is a risk

In regards financial planning and budgets: I agree that when assessing the seperate groups of subs and non-subs as a whole, the former is much more reliable for this. However, that's because the latter include impulsive and sporadic purchasers (who may - for example - buy one DLC/mount/costume etc and not buy the next) which increases the uncertainty of future Crown Store sales for this group as a whole.

So if you solely look at the sub-group of non-subs who over an extended period of time consistently spend as much each month as a sub (the group at which I believe should get Crafting Bags via some 'reward' mechanism) then their reliability of future spending/repeat purchases is largely comparable to the subs.

Their Demand Elasticity of the Crown Store items is so low that they're not affected by the 'community reception' factor (over their respective periods of time) and so the only factor which truly seperates these from subs is the laziness of subs in not cancelling when they want to. In which, IMO, is not a valid reason for excluding this particular sub-group of non-subs from Crafting Bags.

Dunno what to tell you, man.

I see what you're saying, yeah, there is a particular sub-group of players who spend $15.00 worth of Crowns every month but aren't subbed, and I see why you'd feel they deserve this as well. However, I'd imagine if those people were to receive the crafting bag it would have to come with the same stipulations; if you don't continue to purchase $15.00 worth of Crowns each month, you lose the use of said bag, just like a subscriber who cancels their subscription.

Ultimately, I think folks are looking at this whole thing wrong. The idea isn't to punish non-subscribers, or even reward long time sub-holders... I suspect it's primarily to incentivize -new- subscriptions. Give the people like you mentioned, who buy all the DLC and spend the money anyway each month, a reason to commit. But you can't just give it to new-subs without also giving it to existing subs... Otherwise you lose subs.

Again, please keep in mind that I'm all for giving non-subs a means of further increasing their bank space with in-game gold. That's fine, stuff like that takes gold out of the economy and keeps prices reasonable all around. But the crafting bag seems like a nice perk for subbed-players.

Yeah I agree that incentivising new subs is a big reason for including the Crafting Bags, whether that be high-level non-subs (regardless of their CStore purchases) or simply new players so they have an easy way overcome the inventory restrictions whilst also giving them access to wider content designed to keep them playing for longer.

Anyway, I can't wait for the Crafting Bags so I can free up and have some 10/10 organised inventory for once (actually looking forward to that more than having alts at max-level tbh). Regardless of this discussion, it's a great addition to the game

Zyle

Make Craft Bags ESO plus exclusive, but I'm alright with increasing inventory for everyone.

I'm confused on the options, why would someone who wants a crafting bag for ESO+ want to deny a base inventory upgrade (not just crafting mats) to the game?

Blackbird71

newtinmpls wrote: »

Ahhh.. someone who picked up on my metaphor. I don't care if you agree or disagree, I just thought it was useful and might inspire thought.

Sunburnt_Penguin wrote: »

I can stop my sub today and not pay any more money which is the same as a non-sub. If the cash paid between a sub and a non-sub is the same, they therefore share the same monetary value of ESO are also subject to same risk.

Was the original comment I was replying to.

newtinmpls wrote: »

And (to continue the commitment metaphor) if you are married, you can divorce.

But there is still a certain class of ... subject (MMORPG or potential spouse/date) that likes to reserve the "good stuff" to someone who actually commits.

Blackbird71 wrote: »

That is in no way an accurate comparison. When you marry, you make a commitment to continue that marriage for the rest of your lives; divorce is a breach of that commitment.

When you subscribe, you make no commitment of any sort that you will continue to subscribe. For each period of a subscription, be it 30, 60, 90, or however many days, you pay in advance for access during that period of time. Once that time has completed, you have no obligation to continue your subscription; you are free to re-evaluate and decide whether to purchase another time period of access. There is no penalty or breach of commitment if you choose not to do so. The fact that a subscription can be set to auto-renew at the end of each time period is not a commitment of any sort, as this can be just as easily cancelled, again without any sort of penalty or negative consequence for doing so.

I see a huge difference between "I will date you, and expected to gain all the (numerous and nummy) benefits of our "relationship", as compared to "I will marry you, knowing full well that we may choose at some time to end that marriage for any reason (or none). Note in this metaphor I am presuming a non-cohabiting relationship.

Blackbird71 wrote: »

A game subscription is not a commitment, it is a convenience!

Living with someone and getting all the numerous and nummy benefits is much more of a convenience (which is why I specified non-cohabiting above) than dating and maybe even spending more, but not being willing to commit. They kind of go together.

Blackbird71 wrote: »

As a married individual, I have to add that I find the fact that you would compare the commitment of marriage to a game subscription to be grossly insulting. If you truly think the two are in any way similar, do not expect any of your relationships in life to last for any significant period of time.

I'm married. My spouse is online (and was highly amused and agreeable to my metaphor). Been together ... 36 years.

And as I said to my future-mother-in-law when discussing something that was none of her business:

"why buy the cow when you can get the milk free?"

Hence. Subs get the good stuff.
.

Amusing anecdotes, but pointless. None of that negates the fact that there is no commitment in a subscription. There is no obligation to continue the subscription, and it can be cancelled without penalty at any time. At best there may be an expectation that the subscription may continue, but there is no guarantee, and there is no reason to assume that every player who subscribed this month will also remain subscribed next month.

Divorce is nothing like cancelling a subscription; as with divorce you are breaking a commitment. In doing so, you incur all kinds of negative consequences, whether they be emotional, financial, etc.

Equating the two is ludicrous, as you are either diminishing the significance of marriage and divorce, or you are grossly inflating the nonexistent commitment you seem to think accompanies a subscription.

I ask you this: what document did you sign when you started your subscription that required you to pledge to continue your subscription for any length of time, definite or indefinite? I have never seen such a document accompanying any MMO before, and I'm not aware of one for ESO, but if you believe so strongly that a subscription is a commitment, surely such a legally-binding document must exist!

I've played many different MMOs before. Some have required a subscription which granted access to all the game had to offer. Others required a one-time purchase of the game, and then sold regular expansions and extra features, never including an option or need for a subscription. ESO happens to include both models as equally acceptable options for its players. All your analogy does is attempt to denigrate one of these payment models as being less valid, while trying to puff up the other model as being more valid than it truly is. Why else try to legitimize the subscription by claiming it equates to a commitment, when in truth it does not? It is just a one-time purchase each month, with the option of having the convenience of making that purchase automatic each month. You've signed no lease or rental agreement, you've taken no loan, there is absolutely zero obligation to make that next monthly purchase. It is no more of a commitment than a player who decides they will purchase 5500 crowns every three months; both plans offer similar support to the game, and both are subject to cancellation on the whim of the player, with no enforcement for either to continue.

G-H-O-S-T

Fukutsu wrote: »

Can there be any relief on the inventory restrictions for non ESO plus members? Some links to relevant polls included. Players and Developers agree that the Craft Bag should be an ESO plus exclusive. Option 1 means inventory rights for only ESO plus. By selecting 2,3, or 4, you support some sort of inventory increase that benefits everyone.

Don’t you think this is a bit like forcing one side of an opinion, where’s the option to vote for “ Make the crafting bags available for ANYONE who wishes to buy it with crowns?

After all when you have bought EVERY Dlc and only need to level to 50 before getting the champion point bonus why would you want to subscribe JUST FOR a Crafting bag and fast level perks.

My vote is for Make the crafting bags available for ANYONE who wishes to buy it with crowns. But you was reluctant to add that option to your “Poll”

the only people who will want the system to stay the same are developers, to milk more money and those who have not spent £100.00 plus on DLCs and mounts.

Fukutsu

Make Craft Bags ESO plus exclusive, but I'm alright with increasing inventory for everyone.

G-H-O-S-T wrote: »

Fukutsu wrote: »

Can there be any relief on the inventory restrictions for non ESO plus members? Some links to relevant polls included. Players and Developers agree that the Craft Bag should be an ESO plus exclusive. Option 1 means inventory rights for only ESO plus. By selecting 2,3, or 4, you support some sort of inventory increase that benefits everyone.

Don’t you think this is a bit like forcing one side of an opinion, where’s the option to vote for “ Make the crafting bags available for ANYONE who wishes to buy it with crowns?

After all when you have bought EVERY Dlc and only need to level to 50 before getting the champion point bonus why would you want to subscribe JUST FOR a Crafting bag and fast level perks.

My vote is for Make the crafting bags available for ANYONE who wishes to buy it with crowns. But you was reluctant to add that option to your “Poll”

the only people who will want the system to stay the same are developers, to milk more money and those who have not spent £100.00 plus on DLCs and mounts.

Hey, I stopped following this as closely, but yeah the poll options could have been better. I just wanted to see a general picture. Seems to me 50% want to keep everything the way it is in regards to space. There are a lot of people that feel differently.

And yeah, I agree with benefits for those who purchase DLC, too. I got them all, the imperial upgrade, and I ride a sweet dro m'athra. I do wish I had more space. Aside from the developers, there are a lot of disgruntled eso+ members that do not want to change space because they want the crafting bag to be a large advantage. They feel like they deserve it.