Detailed Explanation of Block Cost Changes

bigboss07

If we could get a CP cap increase I think I would be happy with that. Do we really haft to wait over 6 months to get on? Would people think this would help this tanking problem?

bloodenragedb14_ESO

Does anyone get the feeling whenever a ''explaination'' is released, its really just another way of saying "changes are here to stay, deal with it"?

nordsavage

Most tanks are not gonna put 100 points into block cost reduction. Especially by moving it to the shadow tree. 75 is the standard and only because of shield expert passive. Sustain and recuperation particularly for "off" dps sets that many tanks carry seem like they will suffer. You cannot be the tank all the time and tanking sets are ineffective for overworld adventuring. This will be due to putting more than half of our CP allotment into block cost reduction over regen and ability cost reduction in the thief tree. What will happen to the shield expert passive? That is more than 1k of armor and spell resist. You cannot only look at math without takng a look at practicality.

Another note is to look at how hard you jammed hardy and elemental defender without regard to wasted cumulative mitigation from all sources. This was clearly conceived by someone less practiced in tank theory. I hope this time around if this turns out to be a bad idea you actually make some adjustments instead of telling us to deal with it.

Mysteri0n

They are selling this game on the lie that you can play anyway that you want and with these new so call combat improvements, you really can't. My question is to anyone at Zos did @Wrobel didn't get that memo and forcing players to conform. And now everyone will have to run these so call cookie cutter builds.

Mysteri0n

But this thread doesn't matter due to the fact content have gotten so easy that tanks are now optional and are slowly fading out, with the nerfs to the 3 good vet dungeons vet icp,white gold tower, and COA tanks are gonna be even less sought after you can do 95 percent of the content with 3 dps and a healer and if 4 magic night blades run just 4 dps, this thread really doesn't matter

Sk000tch

I have no skin in this game. I almost exclusively PvP, and my only shield build is a LA templar. I agree that perms-blocking would be bad in pvp. I say would be, because even with all the block cost reception on live this isn’t currently a problem, and seems less likely to be an issue in DB given current PTS meta.

However, your calculations are misleading at best. Even your “worse-case scenario” make several assumptions that are unlikely.

Wrobel wrote: »

edited for brevity
While reviewing these examples, please keep the following points in mind:
…
[*] To calculate Constitution’s stamina return relative to block costs, we need to figure out how much stamina is being returned every half second. Constitution gives 247 stamina every 4 seconds, which equates to 43 every half second. We can then subtract that 43 from the amount each block is charging you since you are being charged that block cost every half second.

Live
Base Block Cost: 2160
25% Champion Cost Reduction: 2160 * .75 = 1620
3x purple block cost enchantments: 1620 – 191x3 = 1620 – 573 = 1047
Fortress, Bracing, and Defensive Stance: 1047 * 0.42 = 440
Constitution: 440 – 43 = 397

PTS
Base Block Cost: 2160
25% Champion Cost Reduction: 2160 * .75 = 1620
3x purple block cost enchantments: 1620 – 191x3 = 1620 – 573 = 1047
Fortress and Defensive Stance: 1047 * .56 = 587
Sturdy x1: 587 * .96 = 563
Constitution: 563 – 163 = 400

PTS – Boss Fight
Base Block Cost: 2160
25% Champion Cost Reduction: 2160 * .75 = 1620
3x purple block cost enchantments: 1620 – 191x3 = 1620 – 573 = 1047
Fortress and Defensive Stance: 1047 * .56 = 587
Constitution 1 second: 587 – 326 = 261

Assuming the worst case scenario where you get hit exactly every half second, you only need 1 piece of Sturdy gear equipped to keep the current block cost…

First, you cannot equate passive cost reduction (or passive regen) like bracing with a proc’d effect like constitution. Your calculations assume constant uptime on constitution, which as I understand how that passive works, would require you get hit between the cooldown end and your next regen tick. That is very unlikely at best, the actual resource return is likely to be 20-33% less in PvE and substantially less in PvP (though much more difficult to predict, given the burst nature of combat).

It’s also misleading to throw a sturdy trait into the calculation without addressing the opportunity cost of what you’re giving up. Sticking with PvP, because that is what I know, that piece of impen you just had to sacrifice results in a loss of incoming crit damage mitigation of about 4%.

Cut your regen numbers by 20-33% and reduce your crit mitigation by 4% and you have a more accurate prediction, and that makes the numbers a lot less attractive.

Wrobel wrote: »

Champion System
We recently moved the block cost reduction from the Steed tree to the Shadow tree. This change was made to give more options in customizing your defenses, and help reduce the amount of time spent blocking. When spending Warrior points, you don’t need to invest in block cost; you can now consider increased healing taken, stronger damage shields, or more damage reduction. Let’s dive into how this will affect the stats of a character with 501 Champion Points who is trying to maximize their block time and damage resistance:

Live - Warrior
100 Block Expertise – 25% Block Cost Reduction.
33 Hardy – 11.5% Reduced Poison, Disease, and Physical Damage.
34 Elemental Defender – 11.8% Reduced Flame, Frost, Shock, and Magic Damage.
Unique unlocks the PTS build does not have (Invigorating Bash, Phase, Shield Expert)

Live - Thief
100 Warlord – 16% Cost Reduction Stamina abilities
67 Magician – 12.6% Cost Reduction Magicka abilities
Unique unlocks the PTS build does not have (Mara’s Gift, War Mount)

PTS - Warrior
83 Hardy – 21.9% Reduced Poison, Disease, and Physical Damage reduction.
84 Elemental Defender – 22.1% Reduced Flame, Frost, Shock, and Magic Damage.
Unique unlocks the Live build does not have (Critical Leech, Unchained)

PTS - Thief
100 Block Expertise – 25% Block Cost Reduction.
67 Warlord - 12.6% Cost Reduction Stamina abilities.
Unique unlocks the Live build does not have (Fortune Seeker, Merchant Favored, Treasure Hunter)

The issue here is opportunity cost. Sure, you can do it, but you give up too much to do so. The issue with heavy armor has always been that the additional mitigation did not justify the resource management issues (also spell pen or weapon damage, but trying to stay on point).

In your example, which uses a very atypical CP allocation, the player is gaining ~10% mitigation from increase points in hardy/elemental defender in exchange for a loss of 5% stam ability cost reduction and a massive 12.6% loss of magicka cost reduction. Moreover, the mitigation increase in hardy/ele defender needs to be netted against the loss of shield expert, which is significant, and takes away about 15% of that 10% increase in mitigation you cite.

A more useful way to look at it is that in order to gain passive reduction to block cost, most builds will be giving up a massive 65% of their CP based ability cost reduction and primary pool regen, and pvpers will have to sacrifice break free cost reduction as well. That is a terrible, terrible trade off.

And no… fortune seeker, merchant favored, and treasure hunter don’t help.

Wrobel wrote: »

The average ability cost is 2700 resources. That’s going to be reduced to 2268 when maxing out the Magician Champion star, or 2365 with lesser investment. If you cast an ability every 2 seconds, you will end up with more magicka after the Dark Brotherhood changes because Constitution is giving more magicka. The difference in only putting 67 points in Magician is 2365 – 2268 = 97 magicka (480 every 2 seconds from Constitution – 97 every 2 seconds nets you 383 magicka every 2 seconds). Even if you put no points in Magician, you still end up with more magicka because of the Constitution buff. Magician gives 2700 – 2268 = 432 magicka (480 every 2 seconds from Constitution – 432 magicka from Magician = 48 magicka every 2 seconds). Overall, you have more magicka and more defense if you choose to put Warrior Champion Points into Hardy and Elemental Defender. Putting 83 points into these stars instead of 34 nets an additional 10% damage reduction.

I actually agree conceptually with block cost recuction being in thief, as it is more consistent with other abilities (ability cost reductions, dodge roll, etc., all in theif).

Your justification is innacurate however. Regardless of wehter it makes conceptual sense, the practical effect is a big nerf (arguably worse than bracing).

Nobody casts one ability every 2 seconds. Maybe it averages out to that, but in practice abilities are used in quick succession during critical moments.

For example, on my Templar (the only char I use a shield on), from the end of a dark flare cast (when the resources are taken), in that next two 2 second period if I’m playing well I can get purifying light, bar swap, entropy, and toppling charge off... and maybe, if charge actually worked, I’m started to jab. So that 2700 is really more like 10-11k. In real fights, constitution will not come close to offsetting the loss of cost reduction and regen.

Again however, none of this matters, what matters is how heavy armor performs relative to other armor types. Both light and medium provide 28% regen/21% reduction to their primary attribute. Even disregarding your questionable assumption of 100% uptime on constitution, a regen increase of 480, even when applied to both attributes, is not on par with the others... and certainly does not surpass enough to address the increased block cost.

Don't get me wrong. HA is going to be good, but HA users have to allocate thief points to primary attribute cost reduction/regen like everybody else. As a result, there is no longer any synergy between HA and block as mitigation.

Compare that to medium armor. MA has additional benefit that their primary mitigation, dodge roll, also applies to break free – which every PvP’r has to put some points in. LA enjoys similar benefit in that their primary pool buffs their primary mitigation (shields scale off max magicka), particularly given the buff to annulment. I mean, imagine if block expertise reduced the cost of block and CC break? Or if shields provided a flat % increase to physical spell resist? Or if... HA reduced block cost and/or % of damage blocked???

That’s synergy. That’s the type of synergy that bracing used to provide for HA and Shields.

Wrobel wrote: »

…
Champion passive Shield Expert gives about 1290 armor and spell resistance all the time. However, this is a great passive that is currently in a tree that is PvP and medium armor focused. To help remedy this, we’re looking into swapping Shield Expert with Resilient so the passive to reduce critical hit damage and the unlock to heal on critical hits are together. This also makes a key tanking unlock more accessible for players with lower Champion Points, requiring 30 Champion Points instead of 75.

This makes a lot of sense. It’s basically giving it to every build in the game, as I’d guess that 99.999% of builds have at least 30 points in the lady.

The disconnect, however, is that armor type should synergize with mitigation source, like dodge roll synergizes with medium armor, and like magic based shields scale with light armor.

I don’t see a good CP solution to do accomplish this. CC break is important to everyone, and there is no equivalent you can give heavy/shield users to match it (and my medium armor DK says splitting dodge roll reduction and break free reduction is a terrible, terrible idea).

Given that, the next best thing was bracing.

Sharee

Wrobel wrote: »

If you cast an ability every 2 seconds, you will end up with more magicka after the Dark Brotherhood changes because Constitution is giving more magicka.

Casting an ability every 2 seconds might be fine for tanking PvE encounters, but when i PvP on my heavy armor magicka DK, i have to cast abilities more often than that if i want to kill anything.

americansteel

mentions balance yet cyrodiil is lop sided by a huge margin.

Nerfed dragon knight and templar drastically since launch and mentions balance.

is zos a learn as we go company or do we have a few experiencied employees?

this game is getting worse by every update.

Erondil

@Wrobel thank you for showing that your balance changes are all made with only PvE in mind. The CP block expertise change is a harsh nerf for magicka SnB PvP builds that also want to deal some damage. And quite frankly, they didnt need it.

olsborg

"slightly more cost" they said, well my cloak went up about 300 magicka in cost on my stamblade. I wouldnt call that slightly, id call that rather alot..

Joy_Division

Wrobel wrote: »

[*] Block cost has a cooldown of 0.5 seconds - No matter how many monsters are attacking, you can block every single attack and will only be charged every half second.

We forumites should not be so quick to jump on ZoS because we do not know all the game mechanics. I never saw this crucial piece of information in any of the tanking discussions.

I appreciate Eric taking the time to explain Zos's decisions, which is what we have long asked.

I won't pretend to be an expert on heavy armor so I won't offer an opinion, but I do think the block cooldown of 0.5 does seem to do a lot to allay people's concerns.

The one thing I would offer, however, is to re-examine some of the more lackluster stars. A big reason people raised concerns about the shift of the block Expertise passive is because where it was allowed us to spend 75 of however many points in a relatively undesirable constellation so it wasn't painful to get the shield Expertise Feat. Now block cost reduction is competing with resource management and the stars for the Shield feat are meh.

Asayre

Thank you @Wrobel for the detailed explanation. I've a few comments

Typo

Wrobel wrote: »

Constitution gives 247 stamina every 4 seconds, which equates to 43 every half second.

I think you meant

Constitution gives 346 stamina every 4 seconds, which equates to 43 every half second.

And this is with 7 pieces of Heavy Armour.

Block Cost Formula
You suggest that the block cost formula on the PTS is

I would instead suggest

I compared both models to the block cost on the PTS and found my proposed formula to be slightly more accurate. I’ve included video evidence showing the block cost on the PTS for 0, 1 and 7 pieces of Sturdy (https://sendvid.com/o29cfk6c). There is some rounding to 3 significant figures going on with the base cost of 2160, the Sturdy part and Shadow Ward so I have to figure out a more accurate formula.


Stamina Loss on Block
Using your method of comparing stamina loss on block on Live and on PTS, I’ve extended to include a wider span of parameters. I used the following equations to draw the plots below. I used the following to determine the stamina loss on block and plotted the difference for a range of parameters.



In the image above, I'm showing slices corresponding to 0, 1, 2 and 3 purple block cost enchantments when wearing 7 pieces of Heavy Armour. The colour scale used changes at around 0 to accentuate the changeover. With 7 pieces of Heavy Armour, I find that unless a lot of block cost mitigation is used or with a low rate of attacks per second the stamina loss on the PTS is greater than on Live. This is even more true when considering 5 pieces of Heavy Armour, where the stamina loss on PTS is almost always greater than on Live. Due to the altered ability cost formula, 5 pieces of Heavy Armour is more strongly preferred as cost reduction from Light and Medium Armour are more valuable (https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/262631/impact-of-change-in-ability-cost-formula-on-pts-gameplay). So I would argue that 5 pieces of Heavy Armour should be considered instead of 7. It also leads me to the conclusion that my block cost will be higher on the PTS than on Live, if I keep using the same gear.

But I do like the changes to the Sturdy trait as it will now be a reasonable idea to use Sturdy on small pieces instead of Infused as I'll be trading 81 Health or 70 Magicka/Stamina for somewhere between 30-50 stamina block cost reduction.

Clarification on average ability cost

Wrobel wrote: »

The average ability cost is 2700 resources.

Could you provide more explanation for this number? I created a histogram of the cost of all magicka based abilities with a non-trivial cost and came up with the following

The mean magicka cost is 3259 and the median is 3166. This is from Live. On the PTS, my testing suggest that the base cost of all abilities has increased by 10.8% meaning that mean is 3610 and the median is 3508. If I were to just consider some iconic tanking abilities the cost on Live and PTS are:


Increased ability cost
It seems that the base ability cost has increased by 10.8% on the PTS. It is not clear whether this is factored in when you discussed the Champion system.

Edit:
Bonus graphs, how many pieces of Sturdy do you need to have roughly the same stamina loss on block as on Live

Negative 1 here means you're already better off in DB than on Live and no Sturdy is required.

americansteel

Asayre wrote: »

Thank you @Wrobel for the detailed explanation. I've a few comments

Typo

Wrobel wrote: »

Constitution gives 247 stamina every 4 seconds, which equates to 43 every half second.

I think you meant

Constitution gives 346 stamina every 4 seconds, which equates to 43 every half second.

And this is with 7 pieces of Heavy Armour.

Block Cost Formula
You suggest that the block cost formula on the PTS is

I would instead suggest

I compared both models to the block cost on the PTS and found my proposed formula to be slightly more accurate. I’ve included video evidence showing the block cost on the PTS for 0, 1 and 7 pieces of Sturdy (https://sendvid.com/o29cfk6c). There is some rounding to 3 significant figures going on with the base cost of 2160, the Sturdy part and Shadow Ward so I have to figure out a more accurate formula.


Stamina Loss on Block
Using your method of comparing stamina loss on block on Live and on PTS, I’ve extended to include a wider span of parameters. I used the following equations to draw the plots below. I used the following to determine the stamina loss on block and plotted the difference for a range of parameters.



In the image above, I'm showing slices corresponding to 0, 1, 2 and 3 purple block cost enchantments when wearing 7 pieces of Heavy Armour. The colour scale used changes at around 0 to accentuate the changeover. With 7 pieces of Heavy Armour, I find that unless a lot of block cost mitigation is used or with a low rate of attacks per second the stamina loss on the PTS is greater than on Live. This is even more true when considering 5 pieces of Heavy Armour, where the stamina loss on PTS is almost always greater than on Live. Due to the altered ability cost formula, 5 pieces of Heavy Armour is more strongly preferred as cost reduction from Light and Medium Armour are more valuable (https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/262631/impact-of-change-in-ability-cost-formula-on-pts-gameplay). So I would argue that 5 pieces of Heavy Armour should be considered instead of 7. It also leads me to the conclusion that my block cost will be higher on the PTS than on Live, if I keep using the same gear.

But I do like the changes to the Sturdy trait as it will now be a reasonable idea to use Sturdy on small pieces instead of Infused as I'll be trading 81 Health or 70 Magicka/Stamina for somewhere between 30-50 stamina block cost reduction.

Clarification on average ability cost

Wrobel wrote: »

The average ability cost is 2700 resources.

Could you provide more explanation for this number? I created a histogram of the cost of all magicka based abilities with a non-trivial cost and came up with the following

The mean magicka cost is 3259 and the median is 3166. This is from Live. On the PTS, my testing suggest that the base cost of all abilities has increased by 10.8% meaning that mean is 3610 and the median is 3508. If I were to just consider some iconic tanking abilities the cost on Live and PTS are:


Increased ability cost
It seems that the base ability cost has increased by 10.8% on the PTS. It is not clear whether this is factored in when you discussed the Champion system.

what the?

VaxtinTheWolf

Asayre wrote: »

Thank you @Wrobel for the detailed explanation. I've a few comments

Typo

Wrobel wrote: »

Constitution gives 247 stamina every 4 seconds, which equates to 43 every half second.

I think you meant

Constitution gives 346 stamina every 4 seconds, which equates to 43 every half second.

And this is with 7 pieces of Heavy Armour.

Block Cost Formula
You suggest that the block cost formula on the PTS is

I would instead suggest

I compared both models to the block cost on the PTS and found my proposed formula to be slightly more accurate. I’ve included video evidence showing the block cost on the PTS for 0, 1 and 7 pieces of Sturdy (https://sendvid.com/o29cfk6c). There is some rounding to 3 significant figures going on with the base cost of 2160, the Sturdy part and Shadow Ward so I have to figure out a more accurate formula.


Stamina Loss on Block
Using your method of comparing stamina loss on block on Live and on PTS, I’ve extended to include a wider span of parameters. I used the following equations to draw the plots below. I used the following to determine the stamina loss on block and plotted the difference for a range of parameters.



In the image above, I'm showing slices corresponding to 0, 1, 2 and 3 purple block cost enchantments when wearing 7 pieces of Heavy Armour. The colour scale used changes at around 0 to accentuate the changeover. With 7 pieces of Heavy Armour, I find that unless a lot of block cost mitigation is used or with a low rate of attacks per second the stamina loss on the PTS is greater than on Live. This is even more true when considering 5 pieces of Heavy Armour, where the stamina loss on PTS is almost always greater than on Live. Due to the altered ability cost formula, 5 pieces of Heavy Armour is more strongly preferred as cost reduction from Light and Medium Armour are more valuable (https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/262631/impact-of-change-in-ability-cost-formula-on-pts-gameplay). So I would argue that 5 pieces of Heavy Armour should be considered instead of 7. It also leads me to the conclusion that my block cost will be higher on the PTS than on Live, if I keep using the same gear.

But I do like the changes to the Sturdy trait as it will now be a reasonable idea to use Sturdy on small pieces instead of Infused as I'll be trading 81 Health or 70 Magicka/Stamina for somewhere between 30-50 stamina block cost reduction.

Clarification on average ability cost

Wrobel wrote: »

The average ability cost is 2700 resources.

Could you provide more explanation for this number? I created a histogram of the cost of all magicka based abilities with a non-trivial cost and came up with the following

The mean magicka cost is 3259 and the median is 3166. This is from Live. On the PTS, my testing suggest that the base cost of all abilities has increased by 10.8% meaning that mean is 3610 and the median is 3508. If I were to just consider some iconic tanking abilities the cost on Live and PTS are:


Increased ability cost
It seems that the base ability cost has increased by 10.8% on the PTS. It is not clear whether this is factored in when you discussed the Champion system.

I dont know what all of THIS is, but it looks smart and intimidates me so you get an insightful.

Xsorus

Mysteri0n wrote: »

They are selling this game on the lie that you can play anyway that you want and with these new so call combat improvements, you really can't. My question is to anyone at Zos did @Wrobel didn't get that memo and forcing players to conform. And now everyone will have to run these so call cookie cutter builds.

I'm sorry; this is a silly response I've seen posted most of the time.... You can wrap yourself in cat turds and roll around in kitty litter and use that as armor to play how you want... But you'll never be as good as someone in full plate.

In otherwords... Your *** build isn't automatically going to compete with min max cause you wish it so.... Play how you want just don't cry when it's not meta.

Jade1986

So someone can dodge roll and dodge 99999999999999 attacks with only one base cost, and we have to consistently invest more into block reduction in order to block ONE attack? That makes sense.

The removal of bracing is just nonsense. You are forcing people to get rid of ALL of their impen traits on their armor ( which is CRUCIAL for pvp considering the amount of crits flying around there ) and forcing us to use sturdy on EVERY single piece.

It is clear that you will not listen to the community at all though when it comes to heavy armor or blocking though, so I don't know what I really expect at this point.

Jade1986

Lets also not forget that you guys implemented non CP campaigns into PVP, which just so happen to be the most popular ones in the EU, and this whole focusing on CP in order to block is just hurting the campaign that YOU implemented.

Jade1986

VaxtinTheWolf wrote: »

Asayre wrote: »

Thank you @Wrobel for the detailed explanation. I've a few comments

Typo

Wrobel wrote: »

Constitution gives 247 stamina every 4 seconds, which equates to 43 every half second.

I think you meant

Constitution gives 346 stamina every 4 seconds, which equates to 43 every half second.

And this is with 7 pieces of Heavy Armour.

Block Cost Formula
You suggest that the block cost formula on the PTS is

I would instead suggest

I compared both models to the block cost on the PTS and found my proposed formula to be slightly more accurate. I’ve included video evidence showing the block cost on the PTS for 0, 1 and 7 pieces of Sturdy (https://sendvid.com/o29cfk6c). There is some rounding to 3 significant figures going on with the base cost of 2160, the Sturdy part and Shadow Ward so I have to figure out a more accurate formula.


Stamina Loss on Block
Using your method of comparing stamina loss on block on Live and on PTS, I’ve extended to include a wider span of parameters. I used the following equations to draw the plots below. I used the following to determine the stamina loss on block and plotted the difference for a range of parameters.



In the image above, I'm showing slices corresponding to 0, 1, 2 and 3 purple block cost enchantments when wearing 7 pieces of Heavy Armour. The colour scale used changes at around 0 to accentuate the changeover. With 7 pieces of Heavy Armour, I find that unless a lot of block cost mitigation is used or with a low rate of attacks per second the stamina loss on the PTS is greater than on Live. This is even more true when considering 5 pieces of Heavy Armour, where the stamina loss on PTS is almost always greater than on Live. Due to the altered ability cost formula, 5 pieces of Heavy Armour is more strongly preferred as cost reduction from Light and Medium Armour are more valuable (https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/262631/impact-of-change-in-ability-cost-formula-on-pts-gameplay). So I would argue that 5 pieces of Heavy Armour should be considered instead of 7. It also leads me to the conclusion that my block cost will be higher on the PTS than on Live, if I keep using the same gear.

But I do like the changes to the Sturdy trait as it will now be a reasonable idea to use Sturdy on small pieces instead of Infused as I'll be trading 81 Health or 70 Magicka/Stamina for somewhere between 30-50 stamina block cost reduction.

Clarification on average ability cost

Wrobel wrote: »

The average ability cost is 2700 resources.

Could you provide more explanation for this number? I created a histogram of the cost of all magicka based abilities with a non-trivial cost and came up with the following

The mean magicka cost is 3259 and the median is 3166. This is from Live. On the PTS, my testing suggest that the base cost of all abilities has increased by 10.8% meaning that mean is 3610 and the median is 3508. If I were to just consider some iconic tanking abilities the cost on Live and PTS are:


Increased ability cost
It seems that the base ability cost has increased by 10.8% on the PTS. It is not clear whether this is factored in when you discussed the Champion system.

I dont know what all of THIS is, but it looks smart and intimidates me so you get an insightful.

It just shows that the players really know more about the game than the devs XD.

Cinbri

Awesome, thx.I got same impressive results on pts tests.

helediron

Wrobel wrote: »

...snip...
... we’re looking into swapping Shield Expert with Resilient so the passive to reduce critical hit damage and the unlock to heal on critical hits are together. This also makes a key tanking unlock more accessible for players with lower Champion Points, requiring 30 Champion Points instead of 75.
...snip...

Make it so.

Woeler

Seems like there was a lot of drama over nothing then. My gut feeling on the pts wasn't that far off after all.

Mysteri0n

Meta that what it boils down to isn't it, it's like this every patch, like a flavor of the month, thieves guild patch magic night blade dark brotherhood Stam DK or magic Templar., with all the bugs and bots vanilla ESO April 2014 was more entertaining than it is now they was more diversity and not this meta garbage.

The Uninvited

Woeler wrote: »

Seems like there was a lot of drama over nothing then. My gut feeling on the pts wasn't that far off after all.

Well, it forces us tanks to go full sturdy mostly. Did some testing last night and switching from all divines to 5 sturdy made a big difference. At least it felt that way, I'm no mathematical wonder like @Asayre

WolfingHour

Woeler wrote: »

Seems like there was a lot of drama over nothing then. My gut feeling on the pts wasn't that far off after all.

I can't disagree more. If anything, this conversation shows that the developers baseline does not overlap that much with the people contributing to this conversation.

"7 pieces of gold-quality heavy armor, 3 purple rings with block cost reduction, and the full 25% block cost reduction through the Champion System"

Who uses this type of layout, along with the CP distribution in the initial post? How does it differ from the average of tanks doing end game?

As grateful as I am for @Wrobel 's contribution I do think that at the very least there is an element of observational bias at play here - it proves the point he is trying to make.

Latin

For future reference, it would be good to have an explanation on the main proposed changes to game mechanics, just so we, as players can understand it from your (the developer's) perspective and develop stronger and more coherent arguments for or against them. Rational deliberation is what we need, regarding to major changes like the block cost changes highlighted in this thread.

I think the 7/0/0 gold quality assumption is set too high. As many have stated here, 5/1/1 is usually the go-to option as far as tanking is concerned. The skill use per 2 seconds is also set way too low; in many circumstances, tanks don't just block and do heavy attacks. The block cost reduction on jewellery is also a bit unorthodox; resource cost reduction depending on mag/stam based has higher utility value. The basic setup and CP distribution are probably not the most common one, but I can overlook that as a way to illustrate your point. As mentioned by several users, resource costs have been increased across the board, and that tanks having to distribute points across stam/mag and now block cost reduction will erode into resource sustain and management. The potential to change between tank and dps, and for some PvP setups are also constrained by the changes to the champion system.

As such, the takeaway point that you seem to be promoting, that the damage mitigation and resource sustain being more or less the same, is misleading.

I look forward to reading about any further justification on the changes, which is highlighted in the OP and hopefully a response to @Asayre 's enlightening post.

Soris

Mr @Wrobel, I see you chose the light side as you finally join us more often in forums and going in the right path for game balance. It's great really.

This might goes a little off topic, sorry but now if you could look at the templar house and compare it with say magi sorc house for example and with all the mines, atros and a powerful shield, you might as well see that the templar house is no where near frightening for his foes, nor it's enough to be a strong bunker as it used to be before with the blazing shield and blinding flashes. Not that im saying you give these skills back, though it would be great if you could do it, but at least give its old glory back with some other way.

Before you say, I know health stacked blazing build can be quite powerful with high CPs but it's just because of nature of stacking. Unlike other whatever stacked builds, this build have nothing other than shield spam and it can gets boring quite fast. I'd like to use it on a more "normal" build for protection and dmg bump like before 1.7. *looking at battle spirit* /sigh.

Gottbeard

Thank you for letting me look under the hood. Stuff like this saves me countless hours of grueling tests. It is exciting to see you admit that moving the trees around upset the balance of the CP passives. Hopefully you can redesign those passives to make sense.

Praetorrus

My main problem with these changes is that most of my dps characters have a tank 'off spec' to make runs in 4ppl dungeons with my guild mates, as tanks are the rarest beasts in ESO. Looks like after this dlc comes live, I will have to either respec my CP every time I need to tank, or choose only one role and this choice won't be a tank.

I don't really think that it's a good idea for a versatile game like ESO to force people into specialized builds for casual content.
And less tanks/worse tanks will hit casual delving.

Maybe at least make CP respec free of charge or make it progressive like costs of shrineless teleportation?

susmitds

Ra'Shtar wrote: »

Wouldn't this make far more easy to tank in medium armor then? You no longer require heavy to attain block cost reduction so why not use medium armor on a tanking crafted set and have meh dps as a tank?

You won't gain stamina back while blocking like Heavy Armor

Tyrion87

Asayre wrote: »

Thank you @Wrobel for the detailed explanation. I've a few comments

Although I understand almost nothing from your calculations, I believe you should get Wrobel's job. Definitely.