Stamina | Magicka counterbalance suggestion

Sugaroverdose

Since 1.6 with softcaps removal stamina people have good advantage having almost:
1. infinite roll-dodge(was nerfed by increasing roll-dodge cost, but in fact magicka builds has been punished)
2. infinite block(was nerfed by disabling stamina regen, but once again magicka builds has been punished much more than stambuilds)
3. infinite break free(kept untouched)
Magicka builds from those times have a lot of problems with stamina pool which still required to stay alive, while stamina people don't care about magicka pool at all, with PTS increase cost magicka builds will suffer from small stamina poll a lot more.

So what about to force stamina builds care about magicka pool same way as magicka builds care about stamina pool? If you(ZOS) don't want to implement less punishing stamina-related mechanics for magicka builds, than punish stamina builds the same way but with magicka-related mechanics.

All abilities which somehow connected to magic should cost magicka, what exactly? Every heal like rally or vigor, or shield like bone shield should cost magicka but still must scales of wepdmg/stam pool. This isn't requires much work, but it will force stam people to care about magicka pool and it will be connected to their overall survivability like stamina for magicka builds.

Also this change will definitely make glass-canon builds less survivable and not so good choice as they are now.

susmitds

Have you ever played in high end PvE? Stamina users are usually out of stamina in seconds.

Sugaroverdose

susmitds wrote: »

Have you ever played in high end PvE? Stamina users are usually out of stamina in seconds.

Than it's a buff for PVE stampeople.

susmitds

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

Have you ever played in high end PvE? Stamina users are usually out of stamina in seconds.

Than it's a buff for PVE stampeople.

While it might be a buff, it won't help stamina builds that much as just keeping up mobility and DPS drains the entire stamina pool very fast. But on the other hand, it would limit the emergency buffs and heals of stamina builds.

Sugaroverdose

susmitds wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

Have you ever played in high end PvE? Stamina users are usually out of stamina in seconds.

Than it's a buff for PVE stampeople.

While it might be a buff, it won't help stamina builds that much as just keeping up mobility and DPS drains the entire stamina pool very fast. But on the other hand, it would limit the emergency buffs and heals of stamina builds.

I didn't keep in mind that someone plays PvE in stamina where they don't have this advantage that they have in PvP.
But anyway: vigor and rally aren't benefit from spamming them, keeping them up in predictable pve environment isn't really a big deal

Panth141

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

Since 1.6 with softcaps removal stamina people have good advantage having almost:
1. infinite roll-dodge(was nerfed by increasing roll-dodge cost, but in fact magicka builds has been punished)
2. infinite block(was nerfed by disabling stamina regen, but once again magicka builds has been punished much more than stambuilds)
3. infinite break free(kept untouched)
Magicka builds from those times have a lot of problems with stamina pool which still required to stay alive, while stamina people don't care about magicka pool at all, with PTS increase cost magicka builds will suffer from small stamina poll a lot more.

So what about to force stamina builds care about magicka pool same way as magicka builds care about stamina pool? If you(ZOS) don't to implement less punishing stamina-related mechanics for magicka builds, than punish stamina builds the same way but with magicka-related mechanics.

All abilities which somehow connected to magic should cost magicka, what exactly? Every heal like rally or vigor, or shield like bone shield should cost magicka but still must scales of wepdmg/stam pool. This isn't requires much work, but it will force stam people to care about magicka pool and it will be connected to their overall survivability like stamina for magicka builds.

Also this change will definitely make glass-canon builds less survivable and not so good choice as they are now.

*Incoming attack*
*Magicka build dodgerolls*

'Phew, that was close'

*Another incoming attack*
*Magicka build dodgerolls*

Damn, I'm out of stamina now, that's okay though, because every single skill I use is magicka based and I still have 40k magicka left to shield/heal/attack/escape/defensive skills

*Incoming attack*
*Stamina build dodgerolls*

'Pft, I have 33k stamina'

*Another incoming attack*
*Stamina build dodgerolls*

Hmm, that's a decent chunk of my stamina... oh, wait... my mobility/heals/shield (lol)/attacks/defensive skills all cost stamina. Darn it, I wish vigor were magicka based so that I could get 23 health/tick with my insane spell damage. Hmmm, wouldn't it be better if rally - a two handed skill that gives me a weapon damage buff - were to be based on magicka and spell damage? That would be awesome and would totally be comparable to how magicka has to use their main resource for rolling, breaking free... wait...

---

I play both magicka and stamina builds. As a magicka character you know that if you get drained of stamina then you're likely to die. Stack a few points in tumbling and feel free to use tri-pots. As a stamina character you know that the only way to kill a good magicka build is to attack their stamina pool, as their magicka sustain will be ridiculous and they'll just reapply shields as you break them or simply outsustain you.

And I don't really accept 'well stamina builds will all have shields now, too!'... Bone shield gives you a shield equal to (I think?) 32% of your max stamina (double for a synergy). Given a stamina pool of 35k, this is a 4,500/2,250 (in PvP) shield. Magicka is so jealous of this right now.

Sugaroverdose

i have 30 points in tumbling and it doesn't even allow me to break free 4 times in a row with 16.6k stamina pool and 700 stam regen.

Panth141

Then don't put yourself in the position to have to break free 4 times in a row?

Pull away, use your range, break line of sight, use your own CC... kill them? Get shields/healing ward up ready for the next CC that you can't break. If a stamina user breaks free 4 times in a row then they have significantly less of their main resource left than does a magicka build, what do they do in that situation? Use their range (if they have any), break line of sight, use their own CC... kill them.

Sugaroverdose

Panth141 wrote: »

Then don't put yourself in the position to have to break free 4 times in a row?

Pull away, use your range, break line of sight, use your own CC... kill them? Get shields/healing ward up ready for the next CC that you can't break. If a stamina user breaks free 4 times in a row then they have significantly less of their main resource left than does a magicka build, what do they do in that situation? Use their range (if they have any), break line of sight, use their own CC... kill them.

how this applies to heavy mele magplar? Why stamina people should not learn how to play without heal than?

Say why it's a bad idea, don't try to teach how to play

dday3six

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

Have you ever played in high end PvE? Stamina users are usually out of stamina in seconds.

Than it's a buff for PVE stampeople.

While it might be a buff, it won't help stamina builds that much as just keeping up mobility and DPS drains the entire stamina pool very fast. But on the other hand, it would limit the emergency buffs and heals of stamina builds.

I didn't keep in mind that someone plays PvE in stamina where they don't have this advantage that they have in PvP.
But anyway: vigor and rally aren't benefit from spamming them, keeping them up in predictable pve environment isn't really a big deal

In Maelstrom how is a Stamina build suppose to keep up Vigor pretty much all the time as required if it costs Magicka, while at the same time having enough Stamina to attack, block, and roll? All while having enough damage to actually get through the content?

Sugaroverdose

dday3six wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

Have you ever played in high end PvE? Stamina users are usually out of stamina in seconds.

Than it's a buff for PVE stampeople.

While it might be a buff, it won't help stamina builds that much as just keeping up mobility and DPS drains the entire stamina pool very fast. But on the other hand, it would limit the emergency buffs and heals of stamina builds.

I didn't keep in mind that someone plays PvE in stamina where they don't have this advantage that they have in PvP.
But anyway: vigor and rally aren't benefit from spamming them, keeping them up in predictable pve environment isn't really a big deal

In Maelstrom how is a Stamina build suppose to keep up Vigor pretty much all the time as required if it costs Magicka, while at the same time having enough Stamina to attack, block, and roll? All while having enough damage to actually get through the content?

Drop 2 stat food, eat 3 stat food, should have in result 14k magicka if you don't have prismatic enchants.
Vigor cost 2390 and it's 5 seconds duration. With 700 mag regen you will get 1400 magicka in it's duration+700 on top of it after a second which is 2100 magicka, when magicka drops to less than 50% values - eat tristat or magicka pot.

Magicka builds forced to roll-dodge or block on last boss so they do need to watch stamina and i don't see any reason why stamina builds should not save their magicka for something which is necessary.

Panth141

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

Panth141 wrote: »

Then don't put yourself in the position to have to break free 4 times in a row?

Pull away, use your range, break line of sight, use your own CC... kill them? Get shields/healing ward up ready for the next CC that you can't break. If a stamina user breaks free 4 times in a row then they have significantly less of their main resource left than does a magicka build, what do they do in that situation? Use their range (if they have any), break line of sight, use their own CC... kill them.

how this applies to heavy mele magplar? Why stamina people should not learn how to play without heal than?

Say why it's a bad idea, don't try to teach how to play

It's a bad idea because skills scale based on the resource they cost.

If you made all of stamina's (very few) heals be magicka based, including rally - I repeat, a skill that gives a bonus to weapon damage - then they would heal scaled on their spell damage and maximum magicka. This would give heals of approximately three quarters of jack.

The price that magicka pays for dodging/breaking free is that they have a small stamina pool so have to avoid repeatedly doing so. The price that stamina pays is that the resource they spend to dodge/break free is the same resource they need for almost all of their abilities.

You don't balance by homogenization - it shouldn't be 'well this is how it is for magicka, so it should be the same for stamina'. The way it is now balanced is based on having different but similarly weighted effects on the two types of character.

Sugaroverdose

Panth141 wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

Panth141 wrote: »

Then don't put yourself in the position to have to break free 4 times in a row?

Pull away, use your range, break line of sight, use your own CC... kill them? Get shields/healing ward up ready for the next CC that you can't break. If a stamina user breaks free 4 times in a row then they have significantly less of their main resource left than does a magicka build, what do they do in that situation? Use their range (if they have any), break line of sight, use their own CC... kill them.

how this applies to heavy mele magplar? Why stamina people should not learn how to play without heal than?

Say why it's a bad idea, don't try to teach how to play

It's a bad idea because skills scale based on the resource they cost.

If you made all of stamina's (very few) heals be magicka based, including rally - I repeat, a skill that gives a bonus to weapon damage - then they would heal scaled on their spell damage and maximum magicka. This would give heals of approximately three quarters of jack.

The price that magicka pays for dodging/breaking free is that they have a small stamina pool so have to avoid repeatedly doing so. The price that stamina pays is that the resource they spend to dodge/break free is the same resource they need for almost all of their abilities.

You don't balance by homogenization - it shouldn't be 'well this is how it is for magicka, so it should be the same for stamina'. The way it is now balanced is based on having different but similarly weighted effects on the two types of character.

In opening message i described that it must scales of stamina and weapon damage(and this is already implemented mechanics at least half-way there's already implemented abilities which scales of bigger damage and resource pool), so first part of your message doesn't mean anything.

Yeah, that you have to make descent regens and size of one specific resource pool is a "price", how loud did you laugh when said that?

Panth141

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

Panth141 wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

Panth141 wrote: »

Then don't put yourself in the position to have to break free 4 times in a row?

Pull away, use your range, break line of sight, use your own CC... kill them? Get shields/healing ward up ready for the next CC that you can't break. If a stamina user breaks free 4 times in a row then they have significantly less of their main resource left than does a magicka build, what do they do in that situation? Use their range (if they have any), break line of sight, use their own CC... kill them.

how this applies to heavy mele magplar? Why stamina people should not learn how to play without heal than?

Say why it's a bad idea, don't try to teach how to play

It's a bad idea because skills scale based on the resource they cost.

If you made all of stamina's (very few) heals be magicka based, including rally - I repeat, a skill that gives a bonus to weapon damage - then they would heal scaled on their spell damage and maximum magicka. This would give heals of approximately three quarters of jack.

The price that magicka pays for dodging/breaking free is that they have a small stamina pool so have to avoid repeatedly doing so. The price that stamina pays is that the resource they spend to dodge/break free is the same resource they need for almost all of their abilities.

You don't balance by homogenization - it shouldn't be 'well this is how it is for magicka, so it should be the same for stamina'. The way it is now balanced is based on having different but similarly weighted effects on the two types of character.

In opening message i described that it must scales of stamina and weapon damage(and this is already implemented mechanics at least half-way there's already implemented abilities which scales of bigger damage and resource pool), so first part of your message doesn't mean anything.

Yeah, that you have to make descent regens and size of one specific resource pool is a "price", how loud did you laugh when said that?

Sorry, I missed that point! I don't think there are any active abilities that do this currently except ultimates - but you're right that it would be feasible, even if it doesn't really make sense for a 2H skill to cost magicka (plus shouldn't repeatedly throwing your staff in the air wear you out a bit?)

I just don't understand how having to use a resource pool to dodge roll/break free is comparable to using one exclusively for healing. Magicka builds can use abilities to avoid/mitigate/prep heals in situations where they might have to do those. The only way for stamina to avoid healing is to avoid damage - and dodge rolling has an exponential increase in cost attached to it.

Besides, what about the stamina builds that rely on magicka for utility? Stamblades for cloak/relentless focus, stamina DKs for chains/talons, stamina sorcs for surge/streak, stamina templar for any of the many class magicka abilities they want to use. Is it the case that if a stamina class chooses to use any of their class magicka skills they should simply lose the ability to heal?

bowmanz607

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

Since 1.6 with softcaps removal stamina people have good advantage having almost:
1. infinite roll-dodge(was nerfed by increasing roll-dodge cost, but in fact magicka builds has been punished)
2. infinite block(was nerfed by disabling stamina regen, but once again magicka builds has been punished much more than stambuilds)
3. infinite break free(kept untouched)
Magicka builds from those times have a lot of problems with stamina pool which still required to stay alive, while stamina people don't care about magicka pool at all, with PTS increase cost magicka builds will suffer from small stamina poll a lot more.

So what about to force stamina builds care about magicka pool same way as magicka builds care about stamina pool? If you(ZOS) don't want to implement less punishing stamina-related mechanics for magicka builds, than punish stamina builds the same way but with magicka-related mechanics.

All abilities which somehow connected to magic should cost magicka, what exactly? Every heal like rally or vigor, or shield like bone shield should cost magicka but still must scales of wepdmg/stam pool. This isn't requires much work, but it will force stam people to care about magicka pool and it will be connected to their overall survivability like stamina for magicka builds.

Also this change will definitely make glass-canon builds less survivable and not so good choice as they are now.

In TG mag is best strongest cause they have ults and Stam do not. DB is the most balance we seen since 1.5
Also, mag builds do have to rely on mag. Some classes more than others. Templar is really only class that doesn't really rely on mag in their builds. Most Stam builds will put resources into mag recovery. It is a necessary pool. Just like mag builds will usually run trip Stat food because the stamina is necessary. Solution for you is to invest in more stamina or Stam recovery if you have resource issues. Just as Stam builds invest into mag recovery. Heck, I run only 10k Stam on my mag builds because I run immovable pots so I am draining less stamina. If I don't run immovable pots I will use trip pots and tri food.

Sugaroverdose

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

Since 1.6 with softcaps removal stamina people have good advantage having almost:
1. infinite roll-dodge(was nerfed by increasing roll-dodge cost, but in fact magicka builds has been punished)
2. infinite block(was nerfed by disabling stamina regen, but once again magicka builds has been punished much more than stambuilds)
3. infinite break free(kept untouched)
Magicka builds from those times have a lot of problems with stamina pool which still required to stay alive, while stamina people don't care about magicka pool at all, with PTS increase cost magicka builds will suffer from small stamina poll a lot more.

So what about to force stamina builds care about magicka pool same way as magicka builds care about stamina pool? If you(ZOS) don't want to implement less punishing stamina-related mechanics for magicka builds, than punish stamina builds the same way but with magicka-related mechanics.

All abilities which somehow connected to magic should cost magicka, what exactly? Every heal like rally or vigor, or shield like bone shield should cost magicka but still must scales of wepdmg/stam pool. This isn't requires much work, but it will force stam people to care about magicka pool and it will be connected to their overall survivability like stamina for magicka builds.

Also this change will definitely make glass-canon builds less survivable and not so good choice as they are now.

In TG mag is best strongest cause they have ults and Stam do not. DB is the most balance we seen since 1.5
Also, mag builds do have to rely on mag. Some classes more than others. Templar is really only class that doesn't really rely on mag in their builds. Most Stam builds will put resources into mag recovery. It is a necessary pool. Just like mag builds will usually run trip Stat food because the stamina is necessary. Solution for you is to invest in more stamina or Stam recovery if you have resource issues. Just as Stam builds invest into mag recovery. Heck, I run only 10k Stam on my mag builds because I run immovable pots so I am draining less stamina. If I don't run immovable pots I will use trip pots and tri food.

First of it's DB PTS forum, so i'm asking for change which connected to DB changes since in DB all stambuilds except stamsorcs have native ultimates which scales of mighty, also stambuilds will have Dawnbreaker which will be really good choice for stamsorc.

Didn't i described what stamina pool and how much CP i spend to have an ability to break free 3 times?

Panth141 wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

Panth141 wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

Panth141 wrote: »

Then don't put yourself in the position to have to break free 4 times in a row?

Pull away, use your range, break line of sight, use your own CC... kill them? Get shields/healing ward up ready for the next CC that you can't break. If a stamina user breaks free 4 times in a row then they have significantly less of their main resource left than does a magicka build, what do they do in that situation? Use their range (if they have any), break line of sight, use their own CC... kill them.

how this applies to heavy mele magplar? Why stamina people should not learn how to play without heal than?

Say why it's a bad idea, don't try to teach how to play

It's a bad idea because skills scale based on the resource they cost.

If you made all of stamina's (very few) heals be magicka based, including rally - I repeat, a skill that gives a bonus to weapon damage - then they would heal scaled on their spell damage and maximum magicka. This would give heals of approximately three quarters of jack.

The price that magicka pays for dodging/breaking free is that they have a small stamina pool so have to avoid repeatedly doing so. The price that stamina pays is that the resource they spend to dodge/break free is the same resource they need for almost all of their abilities.

You don't balance by homogenization - it shouldn't be 'well this is how it is for magicka, so it should be the same for stamina'. The way it is now balanced is based on having different but similarly weighted effects on the two types of character.

In opening message i described that it must scales of stamina and weapon damage(and this is already implemented mechanics at least half-way there's already implemented abilities which scales of bigger damage and resource pool), so first part of your message doesn't mean anything.

Yeah, that you have to make descent regens and size of one specific resource pool is a "price", how loud did you laugh when said that?

Sorry, I missed that point! I don't think there are any active abilities that do this currently except ultimates - but you're right that it would be feasible, even if it doesn't really make sense for a 2H skill to cost magicka (plus shouldn't repeatedly throwing your staff in the air wear you out a bit?)

I just don't understand how having to use a resource pool to dodge roll/break free is comparable to using one exclusively for healing. Magicka builds can use abilities to avoid/mitigate/prep heals in situations where they might have to do those. The only way for stamina to avoid healing is to avoid damage - and dodge rolling has an exponential increase in cost attached to it.

Besides, what about the stamina builds that rely on magicka for utility? Stamblades for cloak/relentless focus, stamina DKs for chains/talons, stamina sorcs for surge/streak, stamina templar for any of the many class magicka abilities they want to use. Is it the case that if a stamina class chooses to use any of their class magicka skills they should simply lose the ability to heal?

Since magbuilds must watch to their stam pool before deciding to roll, or block i do think that stambuilds should also think before using magicka cost abilities and choose wisely, and once again it's must be connected to their survivability, not something like 'oh i can't cast relentless focus, meh'

Panth141

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

[Snip] Since magbuilds must watch to their stam pool before deciding to roll, or block i do think that stambuilds should also think before using magicka cost abilities and choose wisely

I don't see how having to be careful not using up your stamina rolling/blocking is the same as being forced to chose between using your class abilities or using any healing skills...

It simply doesn't sound like balance

Sugaroverdose

Panth141 wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

[Snip] Since magbuilds must watch to their stam pool before deciding to roll, or block i do think that stambuilds should also think before using magicka cost abilities and choose wisely

I don't see how having to be careful not using up your stamina rolling/blocking is the same as being forced to chose between using your class abilities or using any healing skills...

It simply doesn't sound like balance

It's not about that, it's about making both pool cost something, now stambuilds do not rely on magicka pool the same way as magicka builds rely on stamina. With 14k pool you have something like 5 casts of magicka abilities without regens. Making heal to cost magicka forces stambuilds to not spam something like obsidian shield to make magicka>stamina trade.
Such change is a huge nerf to only one stambuild - stamblade, others will just have to think a little more before touching button mapped to magicka costed ability.

bowmanz607

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

Since 1.6 with softcaps removal stamina people have good advantage having almost:
1. infinite roll-dodge(was nerfed by increasing roll-dodge cost, but in fact magicka builds has been punished)
2. infinite block(was nerfed by disabling stamina regen, but once again magicka builds has been punished much more than stambuilds)
3. infinite break free(kept untouched)
Magicka builds from those times have a lot of problems with stamina pool which still required to stay alive, while stamina people don't care about magicka pool at all, with PTS increase cost magicka builds will suffer from small stamina poll a lot more.

So what about to force stamina builds care about magicka pool same way as magicka builds care about stamina pool? If you(ZOS) don't want to implement less punishing stamina-related mechanics for magicka builds, than punish stamina builds the same way but with magicka-related mechanics.

All abilities which somehow connected to magic should cost magicka, what exactly? Every heal like rally or vigor, or shield like bone shield should cost magicka but still must scales of wepdmg/stam pool. This isn't requires much work, but it will force stam people to care about magicka pool and it will be connected to their overall survivability like stamina for magicka builds.

Also this change will definitely make glass-canon builds less survivable and not so good choice as they are now.

In TG mag is best strongest cause they have ults and Stam do not. DB is the most balance we seen since 1.5
Also, mag builds do have to rely on mag. Some classes more than others. Templar is really only class that doesn't really rely on mag in their builds. Most Stam builds will put resources into mag recovery. It is a necessary pool. Just like mag builds will usually run trip Stat food because the stamina is necessary. Solution for you is to invest in more stamina or Stam recovery if you have resource issues. Just as Stam builds invest into mag recovery. Heck, I run only 10k Stam on my mag builds because I run immovable pots so I am draining less stamina. If I don't run immovable pots I will use trip pots and tri food.

First of it's DB PTS forum, so i'm asking for change which connected to DB changes since in DB all stambuilds except stamsorcs have native ultimates which scales of mighty, also stambuilds will have Dawnbreaker which will be really good choice for stamsorc.

Didn't i described what stamina pool and how much CP i spend to have an ability to break free 3 times?

Panth141 wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

Panth141 wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

Panth141 wrote: »

Then don't put yourself in the position to have to break free 4 times in a row?

Pull away, use your range, break line of sight, use your own CC... kill them? Get shields/healing ward up ready for the next CC that you can't break. If a stamina user breaks free 4 times in a row then they have significantly less of their main resource left than does a magicka build, what do they do in that situation? Use their range (if they have any), break line of sight, use their own CC... kill them.

how this applies to heavy mele magplar? Why stamina people should not learn how to play without heal than?

Say why it's a bad idea, don't try to teach how to play

It's a bad idea because skills scale based on the resource they cost.

If you made all of stamina's (very few) heals be magicka based, including rally - I repeat, a skill that gives a bonus to weapon damage - then they would heal scaled on their spell damage and maximum magicka. This would give heals of approximately three quarters of jack.

The price that magicka pays for dodging/breaking free is that they have a small stamina pool so have to avoid repeatedly doing so. The price that stamina pays is that the resource they spend to dodge/break free is the same resource they need for almost all of their abilities.

You don't balance by homogenization - it shouldn't be 'well this is how it is for magicka, so it should be the same for stamina'. The way it is now balanced is based on having different but similarly weighted effects on the two types of character.

In opening message i described that it must scales of stamina and weapon damage(and this is already implemented mechanics at least half-way there's already implemented abilities which scales of bigger damage and resource pool), so first part of your message doesn't mean anything.

Yeah, that you have to make descent regens and size of one specific resource pool is a "price", how loud did you laugh when said that?

Sorry, I missed that point! I don't think there are any active abilities that do this currently except ultimates - but you're right that it would be feasible, even if it doesn't really make sense for a 2H skill to cost magicka (plus shouldn't repeatedly throwing your staff in the air wear you out a bit?)

I just don't understand how having to use a resource pool to dodge roll/break free is comparable to using one exclusively for healing. Magicka builds can use abilities to avoid/mitigate/prep heals in situations where they might have to do those. The only way for stamina to avoid healing is to avoid damage - and dodge rolling has an exponential increase in cost attached to it.

Besides, what about the stamina builds that rely on magicka for utility? Stamblades for cloak/relentless focus, stamina DKs for chains/talons, stamina sorcs for surge/streak, stamina templar for any of the many class magicka abilities they want to use. Is it the case that if a stamina class chooses to use any of their class magicka skills they should simply lose the ability to heal?

Since magbuilds must watch to their stam pool before deciding to roll, or block i do think that stambuilds should also think before using magicka cost abilities and choose wisely, and once again it's must be connected to their survivability, not something like 'oh i can't cast relentless focus, meh'

Yes you talking about changes in db, bUT you started by talking about how Stam builds have been essentially the go to sense 1.6 which I refuted.

Also, Templar is the only class without a native ult that scales from mighty.

For many mag pool is survivability. Cc are survival tools. As well as skills such as cloak, streak and wings. Or perhaps a resistance buff. Or a nb blur. Or speed buffs to get away. Survivability comes in many more forms than simply dodge rolling or blocking.

Last, a stam build needs mag for many buffs and stam for blocking, dodgeing, buffs, heals, bteakfree and attacking. A mag build only needs it for dodgeing and breakfree. Which with the changes to harness is less about dodge rolling and more about breakfree. The stam pool on a mag build is for very specific situations and there is a cool down on breakfree. A stam build pools from both resources heavily.

Honestly you thinking that a stam build does not need to rely on their mag and not really have to spend resources on maintain their mag pool leads me to believe that you don't even play a stam build or if you do it is merely for ganking.

Sugaroverdose

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Yes you talking about changes in db, bUT you started by talking about how Stam builds have been essentially the go to sense 1.6 which I refuted.

Also, Templar is the only class without a native ult that scales from mighty.

For many mag pool is survivability. Cc are survival tools. As well as skills such as cloak, streak and wings. Or perhaps a resistance buff. Or a nb blur. Or speed buffs to get away. Survivability comes in many more forms than simply dodge rolling or blocking.

Last, a stam build needs mag for many buffs and stam for blocking, dodgeing, buffs, heals, bteakfree and attacking. A mag build only needs it for dodgeing and breakfree. Which with the changes to harness is less about dodge rolling and more about breakfree. The stam pool on a mag build is for very specific situations and there is a cool down on breakfree. A stam build pools from both resources heavily.

Honestly you thinking that a stam build does not need to rely on their mag and not really have to spend resources on maintain their mag pool leads me to believe that you don't even play a stam build or if you do it is merely for ganking.

Because in 1.6 was a lot of permarollers and blockholders maybe?

"A mag build only needs it for dodgeing and break free" this "only" isn't on it's place, being CC'ed is the same thing as not having any survivability tools at all, so i don't see any difference between magicka build who risks to stay in CC which he cannot break and stambuild who cannot heal himself because of lack of magicka but still he can roll dodge, even 3 times in a row will not destroy he's stamina pool, but will be enough to get magicka required to activate heal.

I don't play stamina at all, only L2P with stamblade, how much does it proves?

Panth141

bowmanz607 wrote: »

[Snip]

Yes you talking about changes in db, bUT you started by talking about how Stam builds have been essentially the go to sense 1.6 which I refuted.

Also, Templar is the only class without a native ult that scales from mighty.

For many mag pool is survivability. Cc are survival tools. As well as skills such as cloak, streak and wings. Or perhaps a resistance buff. Or a nb blur. Or speed buffs to get away. Survivability comes in many more forms than simply dodge rolling or blocking.

Last, a stam build needs mag for many buffs and stam for blocking, dodgeing, buffs, heals, bteakfree and attacking. A mag build only needs it for dodgeing and breakfree. Which with the changes to harness is less about dodge rolling and more about breakfree. The stam pool on a mag build is for very specific situations and there is a cool down on breakfree. A stam build pools from both resources heavily.

Honestly you thinking that a stam build does not need to rely on their mag and not really have to spend resources on maintain their mag pool leads me to believe that you don't even play a stam build or if you do it is merely for ganking.

Absolute sense - agree entirely.

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

[Snip]

I don't play stamina at all, only L2P with stamblade, how much does it proves?

Then - respectfully - you probably shouldn't be stating views about how a stamina build doesn't depenend on their magicka, and it isn't really the best idea to try to balance two different things when you've only experienced one of them... it may make you a little biased.

Sugaroverdose

Panth141 wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

[Snip]

Yes you talking about changes in db, bUT you started by talking about how Stam builds have been essentially the go to sense 1.6 which I refuted.

Also, Templar is the only class without a native ult that scales from mighty.

For many mag pool is survivability. Cc are survival tools. As well as skills such as cloak, streak and wings. Or perhaps a resistance buff. Or a nb blur. Or speed buffs to get away. Survivability comes in many more forms than simply dodge rolling or blocking.

Last, a stam build needs mag for many buffs and stam for blocking, dodgeing, buffs, heals, bteakfree and attacking. A mag build only needs it for dodgeing and breakfree. Which with the changes to harness is less about dodge rolling and more about breakfree. The stam pool on a mag build is for very specific situations and there is a cool down on breakfree. A stam build pools from both resources heavily.

Honestly you thinking that a stam build does not need to rely on their mag and not really have to spend resources on maintain their mag pool leads me to believe that you don't even play a stam build or if you do it is merely for ganking.

Absolute sense - agree entirely.

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

[Snip]

I don't play stamina at all, only L2P with stamblade, how much does it proves?

Then - respectfully - you probably shouldn't be stating views about how a stamina build doesn't depenend on their magicka, and it isn't really the best idea to try to balance two different things when you've only experienced one of them... it may make you a little biased.

No it doesn't. I don't play now but played in 1.6 on PS4 when stambuilds haven't vigor at all, but then switched to magblade, then to magplar, now reL2P stamblade and L2P mDK.

It's not an argument at all.

bowmanz607

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Yes you talking about changes in db, bUT you started by talking about how Stam builds have been essentially the go to sense 1.6 which I refuted.

Also, Templar is the only class without a native ult that scales from mighty.

For many mag pool is survivability. Cc are survival tools. As well as skills such as cloak, streak and wings. Or perhaps a resistance buff. Or a nb blur. Or speed buffs to get away. Survivability comes in many more forms than simply dodge rolling or blocking.

Last, a stam build needs mag for many buffs and stam for blocking, dodgeing, buffs, heals, bteakfree and attacking. A mag build only needs it for dodgeing and breakfree. Which with the changes to harness is less about dodge rolling and more about breakfree. The stam pool on a mag build is for very specific situations and there is a cool down on breakfree. A stam build pools from both resources heavily.

Honestly you thinking that a stam build does not need to rely on their mag and not really have to spend resources on maintain their mag pool leads me to believe that you don't even play a stam build or if you do it is merely for ganking.

Because in 1.6 was a lot of permarollers and blockholders maybe?

"A mag build only needs it for dodgeing and break free" this "only" isn't on it's place, being CC'ed is the same thing as not having any survivability tools at all, so i don't see any difference between magicka build who risks to stay in CC which he cannot break and stambuild who cannot heal himself because of lack of magicka but still he can roll dodge, even 3 times in a row will not destroy he's stamina pool, but will be enough to get magicka required to activate heal.

I don't play stamina at all, only L2P with stamblade, how much does it proves?

what you describe in not being able to break cc is a lack of resource management plain and simple. if a mag user runs out of mag they can still dodge roll and what not too if resources are managed properly. you simply down play the significance of mag for stam builds to benefit your argument. You not playing as a stam build proves a great deal. It proves that you underestimate the significance that mag plays in a stam build.

dday3six

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

Have you ever played in high end PvE? Stamina users are usually out of stamina in seconds.

Than it's a buff for PVE stampeople.

While it might be a buff, it won't help stamina builds that much as just keeping up mobility and DPS drains the entire stamina pool very fast. But on the other hand, it would limit the emergency buffs and heals of stamina builds.

I didn't keep in mind that someone plays PvE in stamina where they don't have this advantage that they have in PvP.
But anyway: vigor and rally aren't benefit from spamming them, keeping them up in predictable pve environment isn't really a big deal

In Maelstrom how is a Stamina build suppose to keep up Vigor pretty much all the time as required if it costs Magicka, while at the same time having enough Stamina to attack, block, and roll? All while having enough damage to actually get through the content?

Drop 2 stat food, eat 3 stat food, should have in result 14k magicka if you don't have prismatic enchants.
Vigor cost 2390 and it's 5 seconds duration. With 700 mag regen you will get 1400 magicka in it's duration+700 on top of it after a second which is 2100 magicka, when magicka drops to less than 50% values - eat tristat or magicka pot.

Magicka builds forced to roll-dodge or block on last boss so they do need to watch stamina and i don't see any reason why stamina builds should not save their magicka for something which is necessary.

Magicka has range, that the trade off. It's a massive boon for many areas of the game. Should Surprise Attack have a 22m range? Since otherwise I need to watch my spacing which means more dodging, blocking, sprinting, and gap closing than a Magicka build?

Many Stamina builds run the Orisinum Health + Stamina Regen food, so they'll need to make up that somewhere else likely losing a lot of damage output in the process. Or they could run the HP double regen food. For a loss of max Magicka, and needing a Perfect Roe per 4.

If they did use Tri-stat then most players would need more Magicka regen, since 700 is more than most Stamina builds have. I have 611 on my Reguard NB who has a 15% passive to regen.

Less access to Major Brutality or Savagery from Pots while using tripots to maintain. That'll at the least cost slots to make up.

Using NB as an example. I use Relentless Focus at 2373 Magicka pretty each fall off, and Siphoning Attacks at 2118 Magicka at least every 30s. I would not longer be able to do that if Vigor costs Magicka.

That's a lot to give up. Stamina's trade off is less often use of the utility Magicka provides, but they also have more actions drawing on their main stat pool. The experiences are not equal, and trying to shoehorn equalization of experience on Stamina or Magicka is just going to gimp one or both.

If you think the tradeoff is imbalanced the better answer would be to broaden the utility of Magicka. Rather than gimp Stamina trying to make it play like Magicka.

Panth141

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

Panth141 wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

[Snip]

Yes you talking about changes in db, bUT you started by talking about how Stam builds have been essentially the go to sense 1.6 which I refuted.

Also, Templar is the only class without a native ult that scales from mighty.

For many mag pool is survivability. Cc are survival tools. As well as skills such as cloak, streak and wings. Or perhaps a resistance buff. Or a nb blur. Or speed buffs to get away. Survivability comes in many more forms than simply dodge rolling or blocking.

Last, a stam build needs mag for many buffs and stam for blocking, dodgeing, buffs, heals, bteakfree and attacking. A mag build only needs it for dodgeing and breakfree. Which with the changes to harness is less about dodge rolling and more about breakfree. The stam pool on a mag build is for very specific situations and there is a cool down on breakfree. A stam build pools from both resources heavily.

Honestly you thinking that a stam build does not need to rely on their mag and not really have to spend resources on maintain their mag pool leads me to believe that you don't even play a stam build or if you do it is merely for ganking.

Absolute sense - agree entirely.

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

[Snip]

I don't play stamina at all, only L2P with stamblade, how much does it proves?

Then - respectfully - you probably shouldn't be stating views about how a stamina build doesn't depenend on their magicka, and it isn't really the best idea to try to balance two different things when you've only experienced one of them... it may make you a little biased.

No it doesn't. I don't play now but played in 1.6 on PS4 when stambuilds haven't vigor at all, but then switched to magblade, then to magplar, now reL2P stamblade and L2P mDK.

It's not an argument at all.

This is all getting a bit personal now, and we should probably steer away from that.

The base point I'm trying to make is:

Forcing stamina builds to choose whether they want to use a magicka class skill or if they instead want to heal is not equivalent to magicka builds having to manage their stamina pool to ensure that they don't get caught out unable to roll or break free. Implementing this change would not be balanced.

Sugaroverdose

dday3six wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

Have you ever played in high end PvE? Stamina users are usually out of stamina in seconds.

Than it's a buff for PVE stampeople.

While it might be a buff, it won't help stamina builds that much as just keeping up mobility and DPS drains the entire stamina pool very fast. But on the other hand, it would limit the emergency buffs and heals of stamina builds.

I didn't keep in mind that someone plays PvE in stamina where they don't have this advantage that they have in PvP.
But anyway: vigor and rally aren't benefit from spamming them, keeping them up in predictable pve environment isn't really a big deal

In Maelstrom how is a Stamina build suppose to keep up Vigor pretty much all the time as required if it costs Magicka, while at the same time having enough Stamina to attack, block, and roll? All while having enough damage to actually get through the content?

Drop 2 stat food, eat 3 stat food, should have in result 14k magicka if you don't have prismatic enchants.
Vigor cost 2390 and it's 5 seconds duration. With 700 mag regen you will get 1400 magicka in it's duration+700 on top of it after a second which is 2100 magicka, when magicka drops to less than 50% values - eat tristat or magicka pot.

Magicka builds forced to roll-dodge or block on last boss so they do need to watch stamina and i don't see any reason why stamina builds should not save their magicka for something which is necessary.

Magicka has range, that the trade off. It's a massive boon for many areas of the game. Should Surprise Attack have a 22m range? Since otherwise I need to watch my spacing which means more dodging, blocking, sprinting, and gap closing than a Magicka build?

Many Stamina builds run the Orisinum Health + Stamina Regen food, so they'll need to make up that somewhere else likely losing a lot of damage output in the process. Or they could run the HP double regen food. For a loss of max Magicka, and needing a Perfect Roe per 4.

If they did use Tri-stat then most players would need more Magicka regen, since 700 is more than most Stamina builds have. I have 611 on my Reguard NB who has a 15% passive to regen.

Less access to Major Brutality or Savagery from Pots while using tripots to maintain. That'll at the least cost slots to make up.

Using NB as an example. I use Relentless Focus at 2373 Magicka pretty each fall off, and Siphoning Attacks at 2118 Magicka at least every 30s. I would not longer be able to do that if Vigor costs Magicka.

That's a lot to give up. Stamina's trade off is less often use of the utility Magicka provides, but they also have more actions drawing on their main stat pool. The experiences are not equal, and trying to shoehorn equalization of experience on Stamina or Magicka is just going to gimp one or both.

If you think the tradeoff is imbalanced the better answer would be to broaden the utility of Magicka. Rather than gimp Stamina trying to make it play like Magicka.

So as magicka mele build i must just switch to range and hope that stambuild don't have gap closers at all? How will it help if i met stamblade who will just ambush+surprise attack between roll dodges?

Initial cost of rally and vigor can also be reconsidered to make them have reasonable cost.

PS: you talking about syphoning attacks like it's not procs even 2 times which is ridiculous, it procs a lot and return you both and stamina and magicka.

susmitds

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

Have you ever played in high end PvE? Stamina users are usually out of stamina in seconds.

Than it's a buff for PVE stampeople.

While it might be a buff, it won't help stamina builds that much as just keeping up mobility and DPS drains the entire stamina pool very fast. But on the other hand, it would limit the emergency buffs and heals of stamina builds.

I didn't keep in mind that someone plays PvE in stamina where they don't have this advantage that they have in PvP.
But anyway: vigor and rally aren't benefit from spamming them, keeping them up in predictable pve environment isn't really a big deal

In Maelstrom how is a Stamina build suppose to keep up Vigor pretty much all the time as required if it costs Magicka, while at the same time having enough Stamina to attack, block, and roll? All while having enough damage to actually get through the content?

Drop 2 stat food, eat 3 stat food, should have in result 14k magicka if you don't have prismatic enchants.
Vigor cost 2390 and it's 5 seconds duration. With 700 mag regen you will get 1400 magicka in it's duration+700 on top of it after a second which is 2100 magicka, when magicka drops to less than 50% values - eat tristat or magicka pot.

Magicka builds forced to roll-dodge or block on last boss so they do need to watch stamina and i don't see any reason why stamina builds should not save their magicka for something which is necessary.

Magicka has range, that the trade off. It's a massive boon for many areas of the game. Should Surprise Attack have a 22m range? Since otherwise I need to watch my spacing which means more dodging, blocking, sprinting, and gap closing than a Magicka build?

Many Stamina builds run the Orisinum Health + Stamina Regen food, so they'll need to make up that somewhere else likely losing a lot of damage output in the process. Or they could run the HP double regen food. For a loss of max Magicka, and needing a Perfect Roe per 4.

If they did use Tri-stat then most players would need more Magicka regen, since 700 is more than most Stamina builds have. I have 611 on my Reguard NB who has a 15% passive to regen.

Less access to Major Brutality or Savagery from Pots while using tripots to maintain. That'll at the least cost slots to make up.

Using NB as an example. I use Relentless Focus at 2373 Magicka pretty each fall off, and Siphoning Attacks at 2118 Magicka at least every 30s. I would not longer be able to do that if Vigor costs Magicka.

That's a lot to give up. Stamina's trade off is less often use of the utility Magicka provides, but they also have more actions drawing on their main stat pool. The experiences are not equal, and trying to shoehorn equalization of experience on Stamina or Magicka is just going to gimp one or both.

If you think the tradeoff is imbalanced the better answer would be to broaden the utility of Magicka. Rather than gimp Stamina trying to make it play like Magicka.

So as magicka mele build i must just switch to range and hope that stambuild don't have gap closers at all? How will it help if i met stamblade who will just ambush+surprise attack between roll dodges?

Initial cost of rally and vigor can also be reconsidered to make them have reasonable cost.

Stamina builds are already paying the price by being forced to use one resource for mobility, defence and damage. The stamina builds are forced to choose between mobility and damage dealing, so essentially even stam builds can't do both together. At least Magicka builds get to use both resources for different purposes. Plus magicka builds have their own defences unlike stamina builds.

Sugaroverdose

susmitds wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

Have you ever played in high end PvE? Stamina users are usually out of stamina in seconds.

Than it's a buff for PVE stampeople.

While it might be a buff, it won't help stamina builds that much as just keeping up mobility and DPS drains the entire stamina pool very fast. But on the other hand, it would limit the emergency buffs and heals of stamina builds.

I didn't keep in mind that someone plays PvE in stamina where they don't have this advantage that they have in PvP.
But anyway: vigor and rally aren't benefit from spamming them, keeping them up in predictable pve environment isn't really a big deal

In Maelstrom how is a Stamina build suppose to keep up Vigor pretty much all the time as required if it costs Magicka, while at the same time having enough Stamina to attack, block, and roll? All while having enough damage to actually get through the content?

Drop 2 stat food, eat 3 stat food, should have in result 14k magicka if you don't have prismatic enchants.
Vigor cost 2390 and it's 5 seconds duration. With 700 mag regen you will get 1400 magicka in it's duration+700 on top of it after a second which is 2100 magicka, when magicka drops to less than 50% values - eat tristat or magicka pot.

Magicka builds forced to roll-dodge or block on last boss so they do need to watch stamina and i don't see any reason why stamina builds should not save their magicka for something which is necessary.

Magicka has range, that the trade off. It's a massive boon for many areas of the game. Should Surprise Attack have a 22m range? Since otherwise I need to watch my spacing which means more dodging, blocking, sprinting, and gap closing than a Magicka build?

Many Stamina builds run the Orisinum Health + Stamina Regen food, so they'll need to make up that somewhere else likely losing a lot of damage output in the process. Or they could run the HP double regen food. For a loss of max Magicka, and needing a Perfect Roe per 4.

If they did use Tri-stat then most players would need more Magicka regen, since 700 is more than most Stamina builds have. I have 611 on my Reguard NB who has a 15% passive to regen.

Less access to Major Brutality or Savagery from Pots while using tripots to maintain. That'll at the least cost slots to make up.

Using NB as an example. I use Relentless Focus at 2373 Magicka pretty each fall off, and Siphoning Attacks at 2118 Magicka at least every 30s. I would not longer be able to do that if Vigor costs Magicka.

That's a lot to give up. Stamina's trade off is less often use of the utility Magicka provides, but they also have more actions drawing on their main stat pool. The experiences are not equal, and trying to shoehorn equalization of experience on Stamina or Magicka is just going to gimp one or both.

If you think the tradeoff is imbalanced the better answer would be to broaden the utility of Magicka. Rather than gimp Stamina trying to make it play like Magicka.

So as magicka mele build i must just switch to range and hope that stambuild don't have gap closers at all? How will it help if i met stamblade who will just ambush+surprise attack between roll dodges?

Initial cost of rally and vigor can also be reconsidered to make them have reasonable cost.

Stamina builds are already paying the price by being forced to use one resource for mobility, defence and damage. The stamina builds are forced to choose between mobility and damage dealing, so essentially even stam builds can't do both together. At least Magicka builds get to use both resources for different purposes. Plus magicka builds have their own defences unlike stamina builds.

What do we have as stamina abilities not class-related:
Shield
Heal
Roll dodge
Major evasion

What do we have as magicka abilities not class-related:
Shield
Heal

You missed something.

It's not "paying", it's making one pool to solve all problems, while magicka pool is mostly for buffs. Only sorc and nightblade can be considered as classes who have option to spend magicka into mobility, magplars and dk's don't have this option, and funny thing, stambuilds still can use and double take and streak, and does use them.

Panth141

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

Have you ever played in high end PvE? Stamina users are usually out of stamina in seconds.

Than it's a buff for PVE stampeople.

While it might be a buff, it won't help stamina builds that much as just keeping up mobility and DPS drains the entire stamina pool very fast. But on the other hand, it would limit the emergency buffs and heals of stamina builds.

I didn't keep in mind that someone plays PvE in stamina where they don't have this advantage that they have in PvP.
But anyway: vigor and rally aren't benefit from spamming them, keeping them up in predictable pve environment isn't really a big deal

In Maelstrom how is a Stamina build suppose to keep up Vigor pretty much all the time as required if it costs Magicka, while at the same time having enough Stamina to attack, block, and roll? All while having enough damage to actually get through the content?

Drop 2 stat food, eat 3 stat food, should have in result 14k magicka if you don't have prismatic enchants.
Vigor cost 2390 and it's 5 seconds duration. With 700 mag regen you will get 1400 magicka in it's duration+700 on top of it after a second which is 2100 magicka, when magicka drops to less than 50% values - eat tristat or magicka pot.

Magicka builds forced to roll-dodge or block on last boss so they do need to watch stamina and i don't see any reason why stamina builds should not save their magicka for something which is necessary.

Magicka has range, that the trade off. It's a massive boon for many areas of the game. Should Surprise Attack have a 22m range? Since otherwise I need to watch my spacing which means more dodging, blocking, sprinting, and gap closing than a Magicka build?

Many Stamina builds run the Orisinum Health + Stamina Regen food, so they'll need to make up that somewhere else likely losing a lot of damage output in the process. Or they could run the HP double regen food. For a loss of max Magicka, and needing a Perfect Roe per 4.

If they did use Tri-stat then most players would need more Magicka regen, since 700 is more than most Stamina builds have. I have 611 on my Reguard NB who has a 15% passive to regen.

Less access to Major Brutality or Savagery from Pots while using tripots to maintain. That'll at the least cost slots to make up.

Using NB as an example. I use Relentless Focus at 2373 Magicka pretty each fall off, and Siphoning Attacks at 2118 Magicka at least every 30s. I would not longer be able to do that if Vigor costs Magicka.

That's a lot to give up. Stamina's trade off is less often use of the utility Magicka provides, but they also have more actions drawing on their main stat pool. The experiences are not equal, and trying to shoehorn equalization of experience on Stamina or Magicka is just going to gimp one or both.

If you think the tradeoff is imbalanced the better answer would be to broaden the utility of Magicka. Rather than gimp Stamina trying to make it play like Magicka.

So as magicka mele build i must just switch to range and hope that stambuild don't have gap closers at all? How will it help if i met stamblade who will just ambush+surprise attack between roll dodges?

Initial cost of rally and vigor can also be reconsidered to make them have reasonable cost.

Stamina builds are already paying the price by being forced to use one resource for mobility, defence and damage. The stamina builds are forced to choose between mobility and damage dealing, so essentially even stam builds can't do both together. At least Magicka builds get to use both resources for different purposes. Plus magicka builds have their own defences unlike stamina builds.

What do we have as stamina abilities not class-related:
Shield
Heal
Roll dodge
Major evasion

What do we have as magicka abilities not class-related:
Shield
Heal

You missed something.

It's not "paying", it's making one pool to solve all problems, while magicka pool is mostly for buffs. Only sorc and nightblade can be considered as classes who have option to spend magicka into mobility, magplars and dk's don't have this option, and funny thing, stambuilds still can use and double take and streak, and does use them.

Why do they have to not be class-related?
Every stamina built class has magicka skills that they use. They are already using their magicka. They don't need to be forced to spend it on something else.

How many stamina skills do magicka built classes use? There is an outlier here for magicka builds that use HA and S&B, but they often make use of the prismatic glyphs to balance their resources a little.

susmitds

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

Have you ever played in high end PvE? Stamina users are usually out of stamina in seconds.

Than it's a buff for PVE stampeople.

While it might be a buff, it won't help stamina builds that much as just keeping up mobility and DPS drains the entire stamina pool very fast. But on the other hand, it would limit the emergency buffs and heals of stamina builds.

I didn't keep in mind that someone plays PvE in stamina where they don't have this advantage that they have in PvP.
But anyway: vigor and rally aren't benefit from spamming them, keeping them up in predictable pve environment isn't really a big deal

In Maelstrom how is a Stamina build suppose to keep up Vigor pretty much all the time as required if it costs Magicka, while at the same time having enough Stamina to attack, block, and roll? All while having enough damage to actually get through the content?

Drop 2 stat food, eat 3 stat food, should have in result 14k magicka if you don't have prismatic enchants.
Vigor cost 2390 and it's 5 seconds duration. With 700 mag regen you will get 1400 magicka in it's duration+700 on top of it after a second which is 2100 magicka, when magicka drops to less than 50% values - eat tristat or magicka pot.

Magicka builds forced to roll-dodge or block on last boss so they do need to watch stamina and i don't see any reason why stamina builds should not save their magicka for something which is necessary.

Magicka has range, that the trade off. It's a massive boon for many areas of the game. Should Surprise Attack have a 22m range? Since otherwise I need to watch my spacing which means more dodging, blocking, sprinting, and gap closing than a Magicka build?

Many Stamina builds run the Orisinum Health + Stamina Regen food, so they'll need to make up that somewhere else likely losing a lot of damage output in the process. Or they could run the HP double regen food. For a loss of max Magicka, and needing a Perfect Roe per 4.

If they did use Tri-stat then most players would need more Magicka regen, since 700 is more than most Stamina builds have. I have 611 on my Reguard NB who has a 15% passive to regen.

Less access to Major Brutality or Savagery from Pots while using tripots to maintain. That'll at the least cost slots to make up.

Using NB as an example. I use Relentless Focus at 2373 Magicka pretty each fall off, and Siphoning Attacks at 2118 Magicka at least every 30s. I would not longer be able to do that if Vigor costs Magicka.

That's a lot to give up. Stamina's trade off is less often use of the utility Magicka provides, but they also have more actions drawing on their main stat pool. The experiences are not equal, and trying to shoehorn equalization of experience on Stamina or Magicka is just going to gimp one or both.

If you think the tradeoff is imbalanced the better answer would be to broaden the utility of Magicka. Rather than gimp Stamina trying to make it play like Magicka.

So as magicka mele build i must just switch to range and hope that stambuild don't have gap closers at all? How will it help if i met stamblade who will just ambush+surprise attack between roll dodges?

Initial cost of rally and vigor can also be reconsidered to make them have reasonable cost.

Stamina builds are already paying the price by being forced to use one resource for mobility, defence and damage. The stamina builds are forced to choose between mobility and damage dealing, so essentially even stam builds can't do both together. At least Magicka builds get to use both resources for different purposes. Plus magicka builds have their own defences unlike stamina builds.

What do we have as stamina abilities not class-related:
Shield
Heal
Roll dodge
Major evasion

What do we have as magicka abilities not class-related:
Shield
Heal

You missed something.

It's not "paying", it's making one pool to solve all problems, while magicka pool is mostly for buffs. Only sorc and nightblade can be considered as classes who have option to spend magicka into mobility, magplars and dk's don't have this option, and funny thing, stambuilds still can use and double take and streak, and does use them.

Several Magicka players run major evasion already. And the Bone Shield skill costs thrice of annulment and returns a lower value.
Dodge roll is not stamina only.

Nifty2g

susmitds wrote: »

Have you ever played in high end PvE? Stamina users are usually out of stamina in seconds.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V30st2C8Ulw

resources look fine to me