Ridiculously long queue for DPS to queue for dungeon

Shunravi

dtm_samuraib16_ESO wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

dtm_samuraib16_ESO wrote: »

No, we need removal of the find party window as is, and removal of the kick player.
It should become randomized, with the option for non-elitist players to tag along.
These are always screwed.
Well, not ALWAYS, but very often.

Remove kick player and those very same elitist players will then troll the heck out of the players they would have kicked. Bad idea. You remove consequence, you remove the need to act in any sort or respectful way.

Player joins group of lower level players, sits at the entrance for an hour, what can they do about that. They would soon be screaming for a kick option.

True, I forgot to add: and change into vote kick.
My bad, brother.

We desperately need vote kick. Good thing it's coming.

Flameheart

sigsergv wrote: »

Mordiez wrote: »

The problem is the players all being ego driven wanting to dps all the time

The problem is much more complex. The main reason tanks/healers don't use pug finder is: It's very frustrating and negative experience. If group wiped DPS blame healer first, then tank. Most people don't bother following basic game mechanics and think that the only thing they must do is to spam damage skills. They ignore red circles/donuts, they don't protect healer when he/she is in danger, they spread on location so healer cannot reach them, they stand between tank and boss etc etc.

The game is so much DPS oriented so a lot f people just don't know how DPS should correctly behave in a dungeon.

This...and may I add another important issue:

In my experience around 50% (at least) who queue up as DD, don't have a clue to do some serious dps.

Rapthorne

On the fly build switching out of combat would be a great way to combine two styles of playing a class. (limited to two builds to "quick-swap" between) and allow players to have a DPS build for personal use and a healer/tanker build for when you lack one.

The caveat built in to this is that if your character is geared and built for dps, you will not be anywhere near as effective as a character built for heals. This would be a deliberate sacrifice to ensure that healing is still encouraged and rewarded

swirve

Shadowfx1970 wrote: »

Tank and Healer always get the blame are the hardest characters to play and get the least amount of love, dps on the other hand are for people who can't play tanks or healers, take from that what you will.

You know nothing john snow.

Healer is easy 2 play and you cant save stupid that is not what a healer is.

Ive played with suicidal advance running aggro pulling dps and i try to keep them alive, but eventually i give them less time and focus more on the usually other 2 decent players.

If you find healer hard to play i would question how good a player are you really?

I have also played with dps who hit like a wet flannel and we have wiped because of it you cant heal burn an enraged boss.

Outputting decent damage especially on the console requires some skill.

Guppet

swirve wrote: »

Shadowfx1970 wrote: »

Tank and Healer always get the blame are the hardest characters to play and get the least amount of love, dps on the other hand are for people who can't play tanks or healers, take from that what you will.

You know nothing john snow.

Healer is easy 2 play and you cant save stupid that is not what a healer is.

Ive played with suicidal advance running aggro pulling dps and i try to keep them alive, but eventually i give them less time and focus more on the usually other 2 decent players.

If you find healer hard to play i would question how good a player are you really?

I have also played with dps who hit like a wet flannel and we have wiped because of it you cant heal burn an enraged boss.

Outputting decent damage especially on the console requires some skill.

It can be funny as a healer when you take out adds which are on your dps, quicker than they can. Also the number of times I'll have to do aoe damage rather than heal since the dps are single targeting, which means I burn more magica keeping them alive than killing the mobs myself.

Rubbish dps definitely contribute to the lack of tanks and healers. They need to bring back some of the hard solo boss's in the normal questing game. That will help teach dps to stay alive and do higher dps. WTB pre nerf Doshia.

dtm_samuraib16_ESO

Man...
Not everyone is pro like you.
Not everyone has your gaming IQ.
Or, for that matter, your taste.

Stop demanding folks to play things your way.

Dromede

I've leveled a hybrid tank/DPs, kinda had fun with it and decided to level a pure tank - imperial dk, done by the book.

So, getting into the first dungeon - I'm like "I've got it, I'm here for you". We're all level 15 ish players. First pull - I tag mobs and rotate them to face me. Instead of taking advantage of that and dps-ing from the back, one of the DPs jumps right in front of me facing the adds and starts jabbing them. Gets an aoe portion of my aggro, dies in seconds. Facepalm.

The rest of the dungeon was a sh°t show. DPSs refusing to do anything about healing orb on the final boss, saying that tank and heals do not do enough damage to compensate for healing effect of the orbs.

Moral of the story : being really good at support does not mean sh°t if your dd's are bad. You HAVE to have a hybrid build to be able to complete the dungeon. It's not 'elitism' or whatever some may think - in my case, both dd's were given the knowledge of the mechanic and did nothing about it. So, if you want to complete a dungeon, you have to be good at keeping yourself alive and having a decent dps score.

Rely on no one - and so we have 4 solo players in a group dungeon. Unoptimized, extremely inefficient and very frustrating.

I wanna have fun, not do a job worth of 3 people all by myself. Being a support class in dungeon finder sucks.

Giraffon

Having spent a portion of my weekend power leveling a DPS alt, I can confirm that the wait times for group dungeons on DPS are pretty long.

Does group finder REQUIRE a healer and tank? Is there a way to queue up without any role requirements? That would be a nice trade off I'd make for shorter queue times.

I think success really depends on the experience of the players over the role they are playing.

Ajaxduo

I play all 3 roles currently and I have noticed the following;

- Tank, insta pop or 5 mins max
- Healer, sometimes insta pop but usually 5-10 mins.
- DPS, 30mins+ longest I've been in queue was 6 hours because I forgot I was still queued.

People will try and blame others for not 'playing multiple roles' but you have to understand that play style doesn't work for everyone. I've seen great tanks that aren terrible DPS, DPS which are terrible healers. It's not just a l2p issue for these people, they either don't enjoy the other roles or simple cannot do it. I can understand that and I'm fine with it. What we need instead of poking fun at each other is to come up with suggestions so ZoS can implement a system which boosts group finder activity. Whether it's a token system or group finder buffs/assistants for normal mode dungeons and so on. I personally just made a guild with friends so I can group with reliable players and get things done quicker, also I won't deny playing multiple roles helps but again it's not for everyone.

What I really would like is that group finder performs checks on people's roles. I have so many instances when there is s healer with no heals or a tank which is just a terrible DPS who can only spam wrecking blow. Guess it's just the risk of pugging ^^

Teridaxus

They just made tanks even more rare now.
Add another few hours to your queues.

Humatiel

Allow us to que for what role we are looking for and the que for dps will be shorter and tanks will cease to exist.

win win.

Avenias

Well tanks are not popular because it takes a long time tp lvl up compared to a dps. Plus tanks cant contribute much in pvp, much better to play as a dps or a healer. Magicks dps builds can take on the role as a healer but stam builds will struggle. I usually queue both dps and healer on my magicka templar.

phobossion

We've seen the same thing happen in the past:

- they introduce dungeon finder
- there aren't enough tanks & heals in the queue since most people level as dps. people cry on the forums
- solution? introduce dual spec!
- since tanks get insta queues, everyone specs prot
- they can't tank, groups keep wiping. people cry on the forums
- dungs get nerfed to the ground to the point where you no longer _need_ a tank or heals
- game gets real boring real fast
- people cry on the forums

just don't fall into the same trap, ZOS, please

Azurephoenix999

Been in the queue for three hours, running out of Doritos fast, and my Mountain Dew supplies are also running low.

newtinmpls

"Francescolg wrote: »

--> Now, they start noticing: "Ooooh, soo many (random) groups are struggling in White Gold Tower for hours and hours".. "Why do so many ppl avoid Maelstrom Arena, WTG, ICP, Pledges?" AFTER 1 year.. lol /you failed/

Actually when que-ing up with friends, if we get WGT as the random, we disband and give it up. We already know we can't do it, so there is no point starting the frustration.

newtinmpls

Lenikus wrote: »

Wow... I'm impressed
No one showed in this thread to explain the real problem yet.
I'll do it then;
L2P (other roles)

Using this comment as an example of a type of approach, i.e. "get gud" or LTP

Argh ... this sort of comment is a HUGE part of the problem

I come to ESO from Morrowind. No, I didn't play Skyrim, I've never played an MMORPG before. So I'm theorizing that "L2P" might actually mean something when said to someone with previous MMO experience.

All it means to me is that the speaker is .... unkind (for lack of a more accurate, but likely bannable term).

Learn... what? Exactly?

I say this after watching the (annoying/arrogant) videos of those who think they are the peak of ESO potential, the (encouraging/helpful-but-still-over-my-head) videos of those who have essentially volunteered in the teaching role (i.e. Deltia and Elloa) and so on. I don't really get the math, the min-maxiness and those subtle details that "make or break" a build (and so my builds were/are kinda "breakable", if you know what I mean.

Then finally today, as I was wandering in Wrothgar with my Dunmer DK, with my beloved gently encouraging me, I sorta kinda got it for a bit.

Buff (increase my damage potential)
AoE DoT (lay down the foundation to my attack zone) (more than one if I have more than one option)
Attack with healing (i.e. do damage in such a way as to boost my own health), and alternate this with light/heavy attacks to regen magicka (or stamina as the case may be).
All the while keep moving around of the edge of my "attack zone" so that the enemy 1- has trouble targeting me and 2-is sorta kept "in the middle" by me circling around.

This stuff is NOT intuitive. Not too someone new to gaming/online. And just saying "get gud" or some version of that dose NOT NOT NOT help.

Anyway, I suspect that this attack pattern is probably unique to the DPS role, which means that I am still no where near the skill level (and skill combination) that it would take to tank and heal.

Which may be part of the problem.

Can a tank or a healer speak to what pattern to attempt? Or how hard it was/is to learn?

newtinmpls

Roymachine wrote: »

There is a very simple fix for this. As in any situation in any game, players adapt. I do not want to wait in long queues as a DPS, so I put in the time to get the skill points and gear to have an alternate setup for DPS/Healer or DPS/Tank. Heck, on my Templar I can queue up as all 3 without a problem. You do not need champion points respecced in order to cater to the min/max of a role you get if it's not your 'main'. People complain that the game is too easy anyway so I don't see them as really necessary anyway.

OMG you are so mature you are giving me a rash.

Thank you.

And yes, that's what I should do, but so far I'm still "gettin gud" and Larnin' to play. Hope to work up one of my Templars into a healer (she's a magicka Templar, Imperial) and maybe try. Still scared.

OTOH, it occurs to me that part of why I can do well in some dungeons is because I and my spouse synergize so well. We have done all the first rank and now all of the second rank pledges as a two-man team. Last night we did Wayrest Sewers (normal) he runs a vet 16 healer and I run a vet 12 DPS.

I hate the "speed run" no-chat random folks, but I suppose it wouldn't hurt on one of these runs to see if there is anyone around - lowbie - willing to chat on Skype or even TS (hate it - it keeps dumping me). After all we know we can pull it off, the extra person would not have so much pressure (ideally, anyway).
.

NBrookus

Roymachine wrote: »

There is a very simple fix for this. As in any situation in any game, players adapt. I do not want to wait in long queues as a DPS, so I put in the time to get the skill points and gear to have an alternate setup for DPS/Healer or DPS/Tank. Heck, on my Templar I can queue up as all 3 without a problem. You do not need champion points respecced in order to cater to the min/max of a role you get if it's not your 'main'. People complain that the game is too easy anyway so I don't see them as really necessary anyway.

I could do the same on my templar, and be pretty good at all three roles. But on my DK or Sorc they would be lackluster at best. My sorc can heal... but I wouldn't try healing WGT or ICP or trials.

Templars really are versatile and I'm growing very fond of the class.

Shadowfx1970

swirve wrote: »

Shadowfx1970 wrote: »

Tank and Healer always get the blame are the hardest characters to play and get the least amount of love, dps on the other hand are for people who can't play tanks or healers, take from that what you will.

You know nothing john snow.

Healer is easy 2 play and you cant save stupid that is not what a healer is.

Ive played with suicidal advance running aggro pulling dps and i try to keep them alive, but eventually i give them less time and focus more on the usually other 2 decent players.

If you find healer hard to play i would question how good a player are you really?

I have also played with dps who hit like a wet flannel and we have wiped because of it you cant heal burn an enraged boss.

Outputting decent damage especially on the console requires some skill.

My post was a generalisation as in most games they are the difficult roles to play so people avoid them, even in this game and many others people play for free too many bad DPS that's what makes playing a healer or tank hard not the abilities or the role.

I didn't mention anything about my own abilities so sniping a comment about it shows you obviously either didn't read my post properly or just didn't get it.

Skills perhaps but you need brains too.

NBrookus

newtinmpls wrote: »

Can a tank or a healer speak to what pattern to attempt? Or how hard it was/is to learn?

ESO is my first MMO. Skyrim was basically my first action-type video game (unless Portal counts). I was totally a raw noob and lost, but since I always liked to be brawny, tough melee in Skyrim I decided to tank. Watching my husband sail through content I slowly crawled through was painful. At the time, I didn't realize it wasn't me... it was the the game is not designed for leveling up a tank.

Videos didn't help me. Web page descriptions and forum posts were better for me, but not enough. Finally, there were a handful of people in game who helped me not only figure out what I needed to do, but helped me find ways to do that with some physical shortcomings I have. Not all of those people were better players, they were sometimes just insightful, perceptive people. Then the videos and such started to make sense! Now I've tanked everything except vMoL. It's not rocket science and I wouldn't call myself an elite player. You can do it.

I recommend finding people in game you enjoy playing with - via a guild or random groupings - and learn together.

If you want to tank, Dunmer DK is a pretty good start.

MOBS:
Step 1 - Pull aggro. Cinder Storm is pretty good for this. DDs follow you in.
Step 2 - Taunt dangerous adds, the ones that hit hard. Your tools here are Pierce Armor from the one handed line and Inner Fire from the Undaunted line.
Step 3 - Use chains to pull in ranged adds into a little circle of death your DDs can AoE down.
Step 4 - Use talons to lock them in place so they can't escape the death circle.

Meanwhile, always watch your healer and pull adds off her if needed. Keep your resistance/self-heal buffs up. Keep taunt up on dangerous adds. As time permits, use abilities to debuff everything (prioritize as needed) and buff your group with things like War Horn and Molten Armaments. If you are a magicka DK, use obsidian shield not only for yourself, but to quickly shield a low health player until the healer can get them. Don't stand in red if you can avoid it. (Eventually you will stand in red sometimes because it's better for the group and you and your healer are up to it.) Lay down AoE damage if you can.

My tank rotation is something like Shuffle, Obsidian Shield, GDB, Absorb Magic... Cinder Storm, Talons... Chains as needed. Taunts. Refresh buffs, talons and cinder storm as needed.

BOSSES:
If a solo boss, taunt and turn it away from the group. Sometimes you range taunt to avoid red circles. If there are adds, they are usually the DD's problem, but if they are dangerous, taunt them, too. If you can, snare or root the adds.

On a solo boss with no adds, something like: Shuffle, Obsidian Shield, FDB, Absorb Magic... Inner Fire... turn boss... Pierce Armor, Heroic Slash... Cinder Storm... refresh buffs and debuffs and taunts as needed.

Sometimes there are duo bosses or mechanics that it's helpful to know, and then there's the pledge stuff. So stuff changes from dungeon to dungeon.

Hope this helps. If you are on PC NA, I'd be happy to chat with you in game anytime to get your tank up and running.

Lord_Eomer

Serious issues with DPS queue even takes some time 30 minutes..

Tank and healers jumped in few minutes.

Gargath

NBrookus wrote: »

[MOBS:
Step 2 - Taunt dangerous adds, the ones that hit hard.
Step 3 - Use chains to pull in ranged adds into a little circle of death your DDs can AoE down.
Step 4 - Use talons to lock them in place so they can't escape the death circle.
Meanwhile, always watch your healer and pull adds off her if needed. Keep your resistance/self-heal buffs up. Keep taunt up on dangerous adds.

As a tank why do you even focus on killing ads? It's a DD's job only, isn't it. If they can't do it, they are useless.
As DD I always await for tank when he rushes at the boss, then I rush for ads, starting from the healers and archers.
When playing DD magplar, I spam Spear Shards multiple Times followed by other aoe spell, and spamming this usually kills everything except boss very quickly. Also it stuns multiple adds, makes a nice mess in their ranks and gives stamina to group members, especially tank.
What annoys me much is a tank who rushes at the adds, instead of keeping boss' attention away from the group, as a result I see boss rushing at me when I pull all adds by aoe. If I do so much aoe and tank forgets to taunt boss, boss starts running after me. So I run away in minor panic (I'm not built into long survivability but fast damage) and killing spree of entire team is broken...
Maybe i'm too much dedicated into swtor gameplay mechanics, but also in eso logically it's the tank who should focus all the time on the strongest enemy, and leave minor mobs to others, right?
With DD using aoe, healer should be perfectly safe, if they runs and heal, not stand still...

Magdalina

newtinmpls wrote: »

"Francescolg wrote: »

--> Now, they start noticing: "Ooooh, soo many (random) groups are struggling in White Gold Tower for hours and hours".. "Why do so many ppl avoid Maelstrom Arena, WTG, ICP, Pledges?" AFTER 1 year.. lol /you failed/

Actually when que-ing up with friends, if we get WGT as the random, we disband and give it up. We already know we can't do it, so there is no point starting the frustration.

If you're on PC NA, poke me and I'll help you get through it WGT is pretty easy, it just takes a bit of practice.

Avenias

I am against this mentality of changing gears just to fill up the slot. If i roll a dps i want to stick with dps in dungeons. Some mmorpgs make sure that players dont need to keep swapping gears to fill up that specific roles by giving them ai helpers to fill up the role, some mmorpgs sell portable hirelings that can be used when needed, some made dungeons soloable by scaling difficulty to meet the specific dungeon ( this one will not work here because of game mechanics).

Devs at ZOS should come up with solutions that fit this game best, in order to address this issue. I mean, whats the point of a party finder if majority of the player base have a hard time getting into the dungeon in the first place.

phobossion

Avenias wrote: »

I am against this mentality of changing gears just to fill up the slot. If i roll a dps i want to stick with dps in dungeons. Some mmorpgs make sure that players dont need to keep swapping gears to fill up that specific roles by giving them ai helpers to fill up the role, some mmorpgs sell portable hirelings that can be used when needed, some made dungeons soloable by scaling difficulty to meet the specific dungeon ( this one will not work here because of game mechanics).

Devs at ZOS should come up with solutions that fit this game best, in order to address this issue. I mean, whats the point of a party finder if majority of the player base have a hard time getting into the dungeon in the first place.

I agree that the game should not force you to heal or tank if you enjoy your time as dps. But it doesn't seem likely that any of the mentioned systems would work very well.

A hireling system works in DDO because it is mostly a lobby game you normally play with a group of friends AND the dungeon mechanics are dead simple (when I was playing the game witha friend we found that many of the more complex fights required us to leave the hirelings outside so they don't kill an important NPC or just in general *** up)

SWTOR's solo dungeons with a pocket tanky healer are a joke. They've made them because their instances are crucial for the story and you literally only do the solo instance once to experience the story. "Farming" such a dungeon for gear would result in severe brain damage!

They could also go the GW2 way where you fill the slots with whoever is available and someone being more tanky or healy is just a plus. The problem I've seen in the game is that these dungeons are either extremely boring because of lack of group coop (everyone is just whacking the boss pretty much) OR require a lot of coordination which makes them frustrating for pugs. You can find the team, but you can't finish the dungeon if you are not synchronized.

They might up the group size limit, though. Adding one or two more deeps slots into the dungeon finder group would easily tip the balance and make your queues faster. But it might not work with the current content - not only because of healh pools, those can be easily adjusted - but also because of how the spaces and mechanics are designed for a smaller group in the first place.

In the end it just seems that the dungeon finder tool might be the culprit on its own. If you would see dozens of people spamming something like a global lfg channel for a group, you would maybe go in even with a "non-optimal" group and perhaps try a different tactics to beat the encounter according to who you have in the group... Hopefully they don't just *** up the game to "solve" this

Avenias

Well its the job of the devs to make their game more playable. You cant play if u cant join in the first place. To just ask for a change of gears and stats so that you can queue for a diff role beats the purpose of giving players options on making diff builds, because you will end up changing gears and queue for a diff role. The onus should be on the devs to fix it, all we can do is point tge problem to them, and boy this is a glaring problem.

BucFanJKE

Guppet wrote: »

BucFanJKE wrote: »

I'm a healer and I can't get groups for dailies in the group finder. I give up on the queue after about 15 mins and just go to the undaunted enclave and try to find people in area chat.

It may sound obvious, but are you queued as just a healer? That's a mighty long queue if your queued correctly as heals. Most I have ever had is 4 mins and that's on PS4.

Are you queuing at funny times?

Didn't see this until now. Yes, that is queued strictly with only the healer button selected. It's pretty brutal. I wouldn't think I queue at funny times. Typically its around 5-8 pm on weekdays (includes fridays) or somewhere between noon and 8 pm on weekends.

Edit: also on Ps4

Guppet

BucFanJKE wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

BucFanJKE wrote: »

I'm a healer and I can't get groups for dailies in the group finder. I give up on the queue after about 15 mins and just go to the undaunted enclave and try to find people in area chat.

It may sound obvious, but are you queued as just a healer? That's a mighty long queue if your queued correctly as heals. Most I have ever had is 4 mins and that's on PS4.

Are you queuing at funny times?

Didn't see this until now. Yes, that is queued strictly with only the healer button selected. It's pretty brutal. I wouldn't think I queue at funny times. Typically its around 5-8 pm on weekdays (includes fridays) or somewhere between noon and 8 pm on weekends.

Edit: also on Ps4

Peak is normally 7-10, so your a little early. Might just be a case of people eating/getting back from work when you start queuing.

swirve

Shadowfx1970 wrote: »

swirve wrote: »

Shadowfx1970 wrote: »

Tank and Healer always get the blame are the hardest characters to play and get the least amount of love, dps on the other hand are for people who can't play tanks or healers, take from that what you will.

You know nothing john snow.

Healer is easy 2 play and you cant save stupid that is not what a healer is.

Ive played with suicidal advance running aggro pulling dps and i try to keep them alive, but eventually i give them less time and focus more on the usually other 2 decent players.

If you find healer hard to play i would question how good a player are you really?

I have also played with dps who hit like a wet flannel and we have wiped because of it you cant heal burn an enraged boss.

Outputting decent damage especially on the console requires some skill.

My post was a generalisation as in most games they are the difficult roles to play so people avoid them, even in this game and many others people play for free too many bad DPS that's what makes playing a healer or tank hard not the abilities or the role.

I didn't mention anything about my own abilities so sniping a comment about it shows you obviously either didn't read my post properly or just didn't get it.

Skills perhaps but you need brains too.

I think the brains are lacking with you. Your last statement was dps are for ppl who cant play tank or healer which is pure stupidity.

I play dps 80% time i do the others as needed.

I know plenty of tanks and healers who do vet content, some struggle to output strong sustained dps.

It is very uncommon that a healer or tank have much in the way of challenge in most content. The hard content also equally requires skilled dps players.

I took from your post that you know nothing john snow.

NBrookus

Gargath wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

[MOBS:
Step 2 - Taunt dangerous adds, the ones that hit hard.
Step 3 - Use chains to pull in ranged adds into a little circle of death your DDs can AoE down.
Step 4 - Use talons to lock them in place so they can't escape the death circle.
Meanwhile, always watch your healer and pull adds off her if needed. Keep your resistance/self-heal buffs up. Keep taunt up on dangerous adds.

As a tank why do you even focus on killing ads? It's a DD's job only, isn't it. If they can't do it, they are useless.

I'm not killing adds, I'm positioning them for the DDs so they can kill them faster and more effectively. Any DOTs I am laying down are 1) snares and 2) gravy.