HA, LA, MA comparison, how can they all be desirable?

Personofsecrets

If you dont want heavy nerfed, then would you be okay with the return of bracing all else things being equal (yes, ha would hypothetically have an extra passive.)?

Sugaroverdose

DDuke wrote: »

the moment, I'm wearing only 5 Heavy (1 Light 1 Medium) & I'm already way over the soft cap when it comes to Spell Resistance as a Breton templar. While dual wielding, I might add.

This is with zero set bonuses towards physical/spell resistance and only 10 Champion Points (5%) in spell resistance.

This is with two passives which gives you almost 10k of plain resistance, don't think that there's much tankplars bretons does appear in pve.
The only way now to get passively more than 50% damage reduction is leveling nord, and you'll have 56% damage reduction in pve.

DDuke

SirSilverMask wrote: »

You are focused on PvP here, and I am trying to find a way to make it work for both.
First off do you think that increasing constitution gain by 9 magicka and stamina per piece of armor every 4 seconds is overkill? Because that should put it better in line with LA and MA.

The buff Constitution is getting scares me enough, sustain has never been a problem even with only 1,3k buffed regen :P
So I don't honestly think it needs to be buffed even further.

However, there are ways you can make this passive more interactive.

You could make heavy armor DPS characters a viable choice in PvE by adding a skill that allows you to damage yourself for a small amount, thus actually triggering Constitution (and Wrath) - though other buffs to heavy DPS would be required to make up for the medium armor's weapon dmg & LA's penetration.
Maybe allowing Wrath to scale higher wouldn't be such a bad idea if you really want to make heavy armor DPS compare to LA/Medium in PvE, but here you get the PvP balance concerns again...

SirSilverMask wrote: »

If they were to go the route of increasing mitigation cap, I think another effective trade on HA would be to allow HA to choose wrath 100/200 additional power or a bonus of 2.5/5% mitigation.

I've been in favor of such a "talent system" which pretty much every other MMO has for ages. It'd certainly make the game more interesting & create build diversity. Slim chances of this ever happening however (hey, it's been like two years since this was first brought up...).

SirSilverMask wrote: »

Lastly, do you think that allowing crit strikes on shields would better balance MA and LA builds in both PvE and PvP then the way it currently stands?

Of course.

Sugaroverdose

*Still thinking that "Wraith" passive actually must be a Warriors Fury set effect instead of armor passive.

SirSilverMask

@DDuke

Would an additional basically 18 magicka and stamina recovery actually scare you? This is what my suggested change is for constitution if you try to translate it to regen. It really isn't much to make it sync up better with MA and LA?

Increasing the damage scaling of wrath to 20/40 would make it more comparable to LA and MA after taking into account the increased mitigation provided by HA, which would better address PvE, but the only way to make it fair in PvP would be to allow the crit chances to occur on shields. Both of those changes would need to occur but I think that would better balance both PvE and PvP so long as they stay along the lines of keeping skills the same between the two areas.

It sounds as though you would agree that either HA wrath could use a buff for PvE or HA needs to be able to switch to provide slightly more mitigation again only looking at 2.5%/5%.

Sugaroverdose

SirSilverMask wrote: »

@DDuke

Would an additional basically 18 magicka and stamina recovery actually scare you? This is what my suggested change is for constitution if you try to translate it to regen. It really isn't much to make it sync up better with MA and LA?

Increasing the damage scaling of wrath to 20/40 would make it more comparable to LA and MA after taking into account the increased mitigation provided by HA, which would better address PvE, but the only way to make it fair in PvP would be to allow the crit chances to occur on shields. Both of those changes would need to occur but I think that would better balance both PvE and PvP so long as they stay along the lines of keeping skills the same between the two areas.

It sounds as though you would agree that either HA wrath could use a buff for PvE or HA needs to be able to switch to provide slightly more mitigation again only looking at 2.5%/5%.

If HA will give you stamina and magicka regen boost same as MA+LA, than everyone will go to heavy to have more dmg mitigation with same regens for main and boosted second resource pool. You have regen of both main resource pool while LA and MA gives only one

SirSilverMask

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

SirSilverMask wrote: »

@DDuke

Would an additional basically 18 magicka and stamina recovery actually scare you? This is what my suggested change is for constitution if you try to translate it to regen. It really isn't much to make it sync up better with MA and LA?

Increasing the damage scaling of wrath to 20/40 would make it more comparable to LA and MA after taking into account the increased mitigation provided by HA, which would better address PvE, but the only way to make it fair in PvP would be to allow the crit chances to occur on shields. Both of those changes would need to occur but I think that would better balance both PvE and PvP so long as they stay along the lines of keeping skills the same between the two areas.

It sounds as though you would agree that either HA wrath could use a buff for PvE or HA needs to be able to switch to provide slightly more mitigation again only looking at 2.5%/5%.

If HA will give you stamina and magicka regen boost same as MA+LA, than everyone will go to heavy to have more dmg mitigation with same regens? You have regen of both main resource pool while LA and MA gives only one

It is not stam and magicka regen, I am talking about the passive constitution. Currently wearing 5/1/1, constitution provides an additional 744 stam and magicka over 5/1/1 MA or 5/1/1 LA every 4 seconds if the HA wearer is being hit, my suggestion is to increase the number to 195 per piece of HA up from 186 which would mean that wearing 5/1/1 provides an additional 780 stam/magicka every 4 seconds. The reason for the change is that it better balances with the current recovery/reduced costs of LA or MA wearers and that is assuming they don't have any gear that provides additional recovery. If LA or MA wearers have any gear or traits that provide additional recovery, their numbers would increase faster then HA could ensuring that LA and MA wearers would always have that increased regen over HA by a factor of 2:1 at least of their resource of choice.

So my suggestion is really that for every 2 magicka that a LA wearer gains based on cost reduction and recovery, HA gains 1 magicka and 1 stamina through constitution. However LA wearers can further increase the difference by increasing their base recovery while HA can not increase their magicka and stamina recovery through any passive HA traits.

Oompuh

Rylana wrote: »

Tell me with a straight face that this toon isnt strong for PvP

Tell me again, with a straight face, that these stats are bad for either tanking OR healing a vet dungeon or trial.

Tell me again, how 5HA is bad.

Holygoblin will disagree all day.

Here we go then.

Our main argument is block cost, which isn't addressed on a character page. Your block cost will be large and your Stam pool is small. So yes.. this is a bad build for trials

In PvP you need to be able to dps, take damage, and self heal. This is where your build will work. In a trial you either take 50k hits to the face and shrug it off, pull 30k dps single target, or have the bigggest heals possible. Doing all 3 averagely is not going to work.

Armitas

DDuke wrote: »

Yes, you can reach mitigation cap - but you sacrifice a lot of damage/sustain in order to do so (you gain 0 from Armor Mastery set).

Is the damage/sustain you sacrifice by using a set like that worth using light armor over heavy (which doesn't sacrifice anything to reach those mitigation levels)? I don't think it is.

Just a crude example:
In terms of damage, you lose 1k magicka, 300 spell dmg (375 with Major+Minor Sorcery) & 6.4% crit if the other option instead of Armor Master was Julianos.

All that, just to get close to Heavy Armor levels of mitigation.


I'm not saying it's bad, I'm sure there are builds making good use of that.


and what I meant by group utility is sets like Lunar Bastion or Fassalas, which also benefit the people you play it (while still giving about the same mitigation as a light armor Armor Master set).

I don't know that you lose any basic sustain by going to light armor Armor Master. You are gaining magicka recovery and reduced cost. How it compares 1-1? I don't know, that needs maths that I don't have time for and my PTS won't download. If I read Hrothbern right it doesn't seem to compare. But if it became a problem or missed the mark you could build around through Jewelry or engine guardian I suppose. The same would be true for heavy armor but I think light armor gives you a higher foundation to fine tune around than heavy armor. With light armor Armor Master you just immediately gain all the essential components of being a tank with the addition of a foundation of inherent casting sustain.

You do lose stamina regen while blocking but that can be regained through DK juggling (unsure for other classes), poisons, potions, shards, synergies, and depending on the fight heavy attacks under a self cast shield. The lack of this type of stamina return, imo, is really the only distinction heavy armor could clearly defeat light armor. I think the stamina from constitution will be the deciding factor over whether or not light armor will work in extreme circumstances. It's mainly a question of can this component be successfully, reliably, and somewhat commonly overcome in light armor given the available options. Someone has to try VMoL for that and it won't be me anytime soon. If those 3 qualifications can't be met then I'm wrong about light armor in any general sense that refers to endgame content.

I see what you mean by group Utility now though, but those sets don't come with sustain or mitigation either. You can't reach mitcap from base heavy armor alone. I think someone calculated that base heavy armor was only 5% more mitigation than medium alone.?. Light having of course more spell mit than medium, but it's not a huge mitigation jump just from heavy armor alone.

I don't know that I am sacrificing any damage between Wrath + distinctive utility(- stats for utilities) and light armor with crit, armor penetration, and better sustain for casting skills. Yeah I am losing damage compared to Julianos, but I don't understand the comparison of a light armor tanking build to a dps set.

All this is of course just in the air of theoretical... maybe you're right, maybe I'm right but I don't think either of us could be far from right or wrong; the purpose of armor class has just become that muddy. So muddy that there is almost no meaning to being on the accurate side of it. (not that we shouldn't try)

DDuke

Armitas wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Yes, you can reach mitigation cap - but you sacrifice a lot of damage/sustain in order to do so (you gain 0 from Armor Mastery set).

Is the damage/sustain you sacrifice by using a set like that worth using light armor over heavy (which doesn't sacrifice anything to reach those mitigation levels)? I don't think it is.

Just a crude example:
In terms of damage, you lose 1k magicka, 300 spell dmg (375 with Major+Minor Sorcery) & 6.4% crit if the other option instead of Armor Master was Julianos.

All that, just to get close to Heavy Armor levels of mitigation.


I'm not saying it's bad, I'm sure there are builds making good use of that.


and what I meant by group utility is sets like Lunar Bastion or Fassalas, which also benefit the people you play it (while still giving about the same mitigation as a light armor Armor Master set).

I don't know that you lose any basic sustain by going to light armor Armor Master. You are gaining magicka recovery and reduced cost. How it compares 1-1? I don't know, that needs maths that I don't have time for and my PTS won't download. If I read Hrothbern right it doesn't seem to compare. But if it became a problem or missed the mark you could build around through Jewelry or engine guardian I suppose. The same would be true for heavy armor but I think light armor gives you a higher foundation to fine tune around than heavy armor. With light armor Armor Master you just immediately gain all the essential components of being a tank with the addition of a foundation of inherent casting sustain.

You do lose stamina regen while blocking but that can be regained through DK juggling (unsure for other classes), poisons, potions, shards, synergies, and depending on the fight heavy attacks under a self cast shield. The lack of this type of stamina return, imo, is really the only distinction heavy armor could clearly defeat light armor. I think this will be the deciding factor over whether or not light armor will work in extreme circumstances. It's mainly a question of can this component be successfully, reliably, and somewhat commonly overcome in light armor given the available options. Someone has to try VMoL for that and it won't be me anytime soon.

I see what you mean by group Utility now though, but those sets don't come with sustain or mitigation either. You can't reach mitcap from base heavy armor alone. I think someone calculated that base heavy armor was only 5% more mitigation than medium alone.?. Light having of course more spell mit than medium, but it's not a huge mitigation jump just from heavy armor alone.

I don't know that I am sacrificing any damage between Wrath + distinctive utility(- stats for utilities) and light armor with crit, armor penetration, and better sustain for casting skills. Yeah I am losing damage compared to Julianos, but I don't understand the comparison of a light armor tanking build to a dps set.

All this is of course just in the air of theoretical... maybe you're right, maybe I'm right but I don't think either of us are far from right or wrong, the purpose of armor class has just become that muddy. So muddy that there is almost no meaning to being on the accurate side of it. (not that we shouldn't try)

Well, I think it's a good thing that you can debate whether light or heavy is better choice for a magicka build. It means the game is that much more balanced than back in the days when we all tanked with our staves & bath robes.


What I meant by sustain you lose by slotting Armor Mastery is that Armor Mastery doesn't have any regen bonuses, where as something like Kagrenacs gives you +129 magicka regen.

There are also classes that don't need any sustain (imo), such as magicka templar which gets 1k worth of regen with the proper skills (Honor the Dead+Channeled Focus) - more than enough to sustain even in full damage gear.

At that point, the question is just whether you want more penetration or more mitigation (and next patch, more damage as well) - and whether you want your sustain to come from use of those abilities & taking damage (Constitution) or passively from regen.

Sugaroverdose

SirSilverMask wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

SirSilverMask wrote: »

@DDuke

Would an additional basically 18 magicka and stamina recovery actually scare you? This is what my suggested change is for constitution if you try to translate it to regen. It really isn't much to make it sync up better with MA and LA?

Increasing the damage scaling of wrath to 20/40 would make it more comparable to LA and MA after taking into account the increased mitigation provided by HA, which would better address PvE, but the only way to make it fair in PvP would be to allow the crit chances to occur on shields. Both of those changes would need to occur but I think that would better balance both PvE and PvP so long as they stay along the lines of keeping skills the same between the two areas.

It sounds as though you would agree that either HA wrath could use a buff for PvE or HA needs to be able to switch to provide slightly more mitigation again only looking at 2.5%/5%.

If HA will give you stamina and magicka regen boost same as MA+LA, than everyone will go to heavy to have more dmg mitigation with same regens? You have regen of both main resource pool while LA and MA gives only one

It is not stam and magicka regen, I am talking about the passive constitution. Currently wearing 5/1/1, constitution provides an additional 744 stam and magicka over 5/1/1 MA or 5/1/1 LA every 4 seconds if the HA wearer is being hit, my suggestion is to increase the number to 195 per piece of HA up from 186 which would mean that wearing 5/1/1 provides an additional 780 stam/magicka every 4 seconds. The reason for the change is that it better balances with the current recovery/reduced costs of LA or MA wearers and that is assuming they don't have any gear that provides additional recovery. If LA or MA wearers have any gear or traits that provide additional recovery, their numbers would increase faster then HA could ensuring that LA and MA wearers would always have that increased regen over HA by a factor of 2:1 at least of their resource of choice.

So my suggestion is really that for every 2 magicka that a LA wearer gains based on cost reduction and recovery, HA gains 1 magicka and 1 stamina through constitution. However LA wearers can further increase the difference by increasing their base recovery while HA can not increase their magicka and stamina recovery through any passive HA traits.

Can't really say would it be op or not, but giving 1x1 resource return will make HA obvious choice for every hybrid build from my pov, even more hybrid build will start from line "get 5 pieces of Black Rose"(if someone close to IC on PTS, does this set still in stock of telvar traders?).

SirSilverMask

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

SirSilverMask wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

SirSilverMask wrote: »

@DDuke

Would an additional basically 18 magicka and stamina recovery actually scare you? This is what my suggested change is for constitution if you try to translate it to regen. It really isn't much to make it sync up better with MA and LA?

Increasing the damage scaling of wrath to 20/40 would make it more comparable to LA and MA after taking into account the increased mitigation provided by HA, which would better address PvE, but the only way to make it fair in PvP would be to allow the crit chances to occur on shields. Both of those changes would need to occur but I think that would better balance both PvE and PvP so long as they stay along the lines of keeping skills the same between the two areas.

It sounds as though you would agree that either HA wrath could use a buff for PvE or HA needs to be able to switch to provide slightly more mitigation again only looking at 2.5%/5%.

If HA will give you stamina and magicka regen boost same as MA+LA, than everyone will go to heavy to have more dmg mitigation with same regens? You have regen of both main resource pool while LA and MA gives only one

It is not stam and magicka regen, I am talking about the passive constitution. Currently wearing 5/1/1, constitution provides an additional 744 stam and magicka over 5/1/1 MA or 5/1/1 LA every 4 seconds if the HA wearer is being hit, my suggestion is to increase the number to 195 per piece of HA up from 186 which would mean that wearing 5/1/1 provides an additional 780 stam/magicka every 4 seconds. The reason for the change is that it better balances with the current recovery/reduced costs of LA or MA wearers and that is assuming they don't have any gear that provides additional recovery. If LA or MA wearers have any gear or traits that provide additional recovery, their numbers would increase faster then HA could ensuring that LA and MA wearers would always have that increased regen over HA by a factor of 2:1 at least of their resource of choice.

So my suggestion is really that for every 2 magicka that a LA wearer gains based on cost reduction and recovery, HA gains 1 magicka and 1 stamina through constitution. However LA wearers can further increase the difference by increasing their base recovery while HA can not increase their magicka and stamina recovery through any passive HA traits.

Can't really say would it be op or not, but giving 1x1 resource return will make HA obvious choice for every hybrid build from my pov, even more hybrid build will start from line "get 5 pieces of Black Rose"(if someone close to IC on PTS, does this set still in stock of telvar traders?).

Currently with the system it really depends on the base costs of skill used, however a lot of insta cast skills are 2700 average base cost (base cost increased on PTS), and if you have recovery of just 800 (which I think is low for either LA or MA users) than the following applies.

LA provides additional 2/0 mag/stam
MA provides additional 0/2
HA provides 0.95/0.95 (so overall less then LA and MA)
Black rose set would increase HA to 1.425/1.425, however that is with a full 5 piece set. Looking at more normal recovery of 1500-2000 would have LA/MA providing about 2.4-2.6 of their preferred resource.
Is it bad if hybrid roles are made more viable?

Sugaroverdose

SirSilverMask wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

SirSilverMask wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

SirSilverMask wrote: »

@DDuke

Would an additional basically 18 magicka and stamina recovery actually scare you? This is what my suggested change is for constitution if you try to translate it to regen. It really isn't much to make it sync up better with MA and LA?

Increasing the damage scaling of wrath to 20/40 would make it more comparable to LA and MA after taking into account the increased mitigation provided by HA, which would better address PvE, but the only way to make it fair in PvP would be to allow the crit chances to occur on shields. Both of those changes would need to occur but I think that would better balance both PvE and PvP so long as they stay along the lines of keeping skills the same between the two areas.

It sounds as though you would agree that either HA wrath could use a buff for PvE or HA needs to be able to switch to provide slightly more mitigation again only looking at 2.5%/5%.

If HA will give you stamina and magicka regen boost same as MA+LA, than everyone will go to heavy to have more dmg mitigation with same regens? You have regen of both main resource pool while LA and MA gives only one

It is not stam and magicka regen, I am talking about the passive constitution. Currently wearing 5/1/1, constitution provides an additional 744 stam and magicka over 5/1/1 MA or 5/1/1 LA every 4 seconds if the HA wearer is being hit, my suggestion is to increase the number to 195 per piece of HA up from 186 which would mean that wearing 5/1/1 provides an additional 780 stam/magicka every 4 seconds. The reason for the change is that it better balances with the current recovery/reduced costs of LA or MA wearers and that is assuming they don't have any gear that provides additional recovery. If LA or MA wearers have any gear or traits that provide additional recovery, their numbers would increase faster then HA could ensuring that LA and MA wearers would always have that increased regen over HA by a factor of 2:1 at least of their resource of choice.

So my suggestion is really that for every 2 magicka that a LA wearer gains based on cost reduction and recovery, HA gains 1 magicka and 1 stamina through constitution. However LA wearers can further increase the difference by increasing their base recovery while HA can not increase their magicka and stamina recovery through any passive HA traits.

Can't really say would it be op or not, but giving 1x1 resource return will make HA obvious choice for every hybrid build from my pov, even more hybrid build will start from line "get 5 pieces of Black Rose"(if someone close to IC on PTS, does this set still in stock of telvar traders?).

Currently with the system it really depends on the base costs of skill used, however a lot of insta cast skills are 2700 average base cost (base cost increased on PTS), and if you have recovery of just 800 (which I think is low for either LA or MA users) than the following applies.

LA provides additional 2/0 mag/stam
MA provides additional 0/2
HA provides 0.95/0.95 (so overall less then LA and MA)
Black rose set would increase HA to 1.425/1.425, however that is with a full 5 piece set. Looking at more normal recovery of 1500-2000 would have LA/MA providing about 2.4-2.6 of their preferred resource.
Is it bad if hybrid roles are made more viable?

i do think that hybrids must be viable and in pvp and pve, but i don't agree that they must be locked on HA

SirSilverMask

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

SirSilverMask wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

SirSilverMask wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

SirSilverMask wrote: »

@DDuke

Would an additional basically 18 magicka and stamina recovery actually scare you? This is what my suggested change is for constitution if you try to translate it to regen. It really isn't much to make it sync up better with MA and LA?

Increasing the damage scaling of wrath to 20/40 would make it more comparable to LA and MA after taking into account the increased mitigation provided by HA, which would better address PvE, but the only way to make it fair in PvP would be to allow the crit chances to occur on shields. Both of those changes would need to occur but I think that would better balance both PvE and PvP so long as they stay along the lines of keeping skills the same between the two areas.

It sounds as though you would agree that either HA wrath could use a buff for PvE or HA needs to be able to switch to provide slightly more mitigation again only looking at 2.5%/5%.

If HA will give you stamina and magicka regen boost same as MA+LA, than everyone will go to heavy to have more dmg mitigation with same regens? You have regen of both main resource pool while LA and MA gives only one

It is not stam and magicka regen, I am talking about the passive constitution. Currently wearing 5/1/1, constitution provides an additional 744 stam and magicka over 5/1/1 MA or 5/1/1 LA every 4 seconds if the HA wearer is being hit, my suggestion is to increase the number to 195 per piece of HA up from 186 which would mean that wearing 5/1/1 provides an additional 780 stam/magicka every 4 seconds. The reason for the change is that it better balances with the current recovery/reduced costs of LA or MA wearers and that is assuming they don't have any gear that provides additional recovery. If LA or MA wearers have any gear or traits that provide additional recovery, their numbers would increase faster then HA could ensuring that LA and MA wearers would always have that increased regen over HA by a factor of 2:1 at least of their resource of choice.

So my suggestion is really that for every 2 magicka that a LA wearer gains based on cost reduction and recovery, HA gains 1 magicka and 1 stamina through constitution. However LA wearers can further increase the difference by increasing their base recovery while HA can not increase their magicka and stamina recovery through any passive HA traits.

Can't really say would it be op or not, but giving 1x1 resource return will make HA obvious choice for every hybrid build from my pov, even more hybrid build will start from line "get 5 pieces of Black Rose"(if someone close to IC on PTS, does this set still in stock of telvar traders?).

Currently with the system it really depends on the base costs of skill used, however a lot of insta cast skills are 2700 average base cost (base cost increased on PTS), and if you have recovery of just 800 (which I think is low for either LA or MA users) than the following applies.

LA provides additional 2/0 mag/stam
MA provides additional 0/2
HA provides 0.95/0.95 (so overall less then LA and MA)
Black rose set would increase HA to 1.425/1.425, however that is with a full 5 piece set. Looking at more normal recovery of 1500-2000 would have LA/MA providing about 2.4-2.6 of their preferred resource.
Is it bad if hybrid roles are made more viable?

i do think that hybrids must be viable and in pvp and pve, but i don't agree that they must be locked on HA

Totally agree, however the way the current armor system works, the most viable hybrid build use HA from what I have seen. As they are starting to focus more on HA providing spell and wpn damage, same with heavy armor sets such as black rose.
So the game is currently, use LA for great spell damage and poor weapon.
Use MA for great weapon damage and poor spell.
Use HA for average spell and weapon damage.
Before anyone says anything realize that with gear customization you could do slightly better however please understand that this is basing on the build that maximizes the damages in each scenario.

NBrookus

With all due respect to the people posting their grinded-for perfect trait min-max primatic enchanted gear, this is not about you. The competitive trial guild tanks are going to be fine, too, because those guilds will work together to re-gear their tanks and adjust the group as needed.

There needs to be a path to get there for newer and intermediate tanks that sure ain't running legendary gear. And that's what we are missing: losing Bracing adds a huge power gap to people who have no or low CP and in return gives us something completely useless to a tank going in normal MoL for the first time. Or even AA.

Waffennacht

So im curious, I went from light armor to heavy armor, my resist went from 10k to 20k.

A difference of 10k resist is (10000/33000) = .30. And then .30 of 50 is 15.4 ish

Meaning by switching from Light Armor to Heavy armor provides me with 15% more mitigation.

I don't get where the "HA does 15% less dmg OMG" comes from... as it provides 15% more mitigation...

Then you can say "penetration" well that penetration is a Constant, meaning all armor (and everyone has some) is reduced equally.... meaning that 15% mitigation, is still 15%.

As a sorc we have no real self heal and power surge hardly ever procs so most of everything heal discussed goes right out the window.

As for medium armor... I know very little about, but imo all the stealth passives are wasted on me (yes me, not players just me and my style)

So I don't see what all the hubbub is?

Personofsecrets

The hubub is because wrobel has tried to justify the removal of the best ha passive by saying that heavy has more damage now to be more equal to the other armor types. @Waffennacht

Waffennacht

Personofsecrets wrote: »

The hubub is because wrobel has tried to justify the removal of the best ha passive by saying that heavy has more damage now to be more equal to the other armor types. @Waffennacht

Ah ha! Got it. Ive read that people use that blocking thing... lol... maybe I should bring it back to my people...

Sugaroverdose

Waffennacht wrote: »

So im curious, I went from light armor to heavy armor, my resist went from 10k to 20k.

A difference of 10k resist is (10000/33000) = .30. And then .30 of 50 is 15.4 ish

Meaning by switching from Light Armor to Heavy armor provides me with 15% more mitigation.

I don't get where the "HA does 15% less dmg OMG" comes from... as it provides 15% more mitigation...

Then you can say "penetration" well that penetration is a Constant, meaning all armor (and everyone has some) is reduced equally.... meaning that 15% mitigation, is still 15%.

As a sorc we have no real self heal and power surge hardly ever procs so most of everything heal discussed goes right out the window.

As for medium armor... I know very little about, but imo all the stealth passives are wasted on me (yes me, not players just me and my style)

So I don't see what all the hubbub is?

Stacked penetration can penetrate HA completely in result HA wearer will get plain damage, while LA wearer will get the same dmg numbers, so or penetration should be nerfed to address this, or mitigation hard cap and HA per item armor status must be increased.

SirSilverMask

Waffennacht wrote: »

So im curious, I went from light armor to heavy armor, my resist went from 10k to 20k.

A difference of 10k resist is (10000/33000) = .30. And then .30 of 50 is 15.4 ish

Meaning by switching from Light Armor to Heavy armor provides me with 15% more mitigation.

I don't get where the "HA does 15% less dmg OMG" comes from... as it provides 15% more mitigation...

Then you can say "penetration" well that penetration is a Constant, meaning all armor (and everyone has some) is reduced equally.... meaning that 15% mitigation, is still 15%.

As a sorc we have no real self heal and power surge hardly ever procs so most of everything heal discussed goes right out the window.

As for medium armor... I know very little about, but imo all the stealth passives are wasted on me (yes me, not players just me and my style)

So I don't see what all the hubbub is?

If you switch from 7/7 LA to 7/7 HA, then it does provide 15% more mitigation to physical attacks (not as much to spell attacks). It is so easy to reach armor cap, and no need to have 7/7 HA so that is one reason I used the 5/1/1, which is also very commonly used in order to benefit from undaunted passives and gain a few more bonuses from armor as multiple armor passives don't give more benefit equipping more then 5 pieces. So the difference between the armors when wearing 5/1/1 is about 5%-8% in mitigation depending on how optimized you have your gear (monster sets playing a large role in the decision).
It is possible to reach armor cap while using light or medium armor, so that might be one reason to increase the mitigation to actually allow HA wearers to receive full benefit if they want their armor to be as high as possible.
HA on live is used by a lot of people when tanking because of the extra mitigation and the decreased block cost (no not everyone, there are always outliers), however the new patch is taking away the blocking as well as changing the way the defending trait on weapons works (so that is another small advantage that HA wearers could have gained which is gone) as defending now is a flat number as opposed to a percentage (though I also recognize that the increase in protection in general is larger now with defending trait then it was before, however it drives LA and MA closer to the HA if they so desire).
When the discussion went to self heals, I focused more on the magicka nb, templar, and dk, which all have really good self heal attacks, especially in PvE. I think the fact that the self heals on sorcs is poor is an important point and has probably been brought up in the sorc thread (however it is based on healing when crits occur therefore wearing LA will actually increase the heals more for sorcs then the others when wearing LA because crits happen more and will do slightly more damage, still a small amount of heals), if it hasn't you probably should say something, though I doubt that will change anytime soon.

Rylana

DDuke wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

DDuke doesn't want heavy armor improved.

Why, I am happy it gets buffed via Constitution & Wrath. I made magicka templar work, now it's time to make my stamina heavy armor sorcerer warrior* work

See, I play multiple characters wearing heavy armor. In fact, 2/4 of my V16s wear heavy (Templar & Sorc), where as I have only 1 Light & 1 Medium user.


*Note to self: come up with a better name for this monstrosity

Thundershockhammer

Rylana

Oompuh wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

Tell me with a straight face that this toon isnt strong for PvP

Tell me again, with a straight face, that these stats are bad for either tanking OR healing a vet dungeon or trial.

Tell me again, how 5HA is bad.

Holygoblin will disagree all day.

Here we go then.

Our main argument is block cost, which isn't addressed on a character page. Your block cost will be large and your Stam pool is small. So yes.. this is a bad build for trials

In PvP you need to be able to dps, take damage, and self heal. This is where your build will work. In a trial you either take 50k hits to the face and shrug it off, pull 30k dps single target, or have the bigggest heals possible. Doing all 3 averagely is not going to work.

Except for in practice, it does in fact tank trials. It also healtanks VCoA, VWGT, and heals VICP (havent tried to healtank that one yet) with three DPS plus just me.

Remember, the build posted isnt even intentionally optimized for PvE content, it just does it with no problems. Four traits on the setup are useless for PvE (impen). So even there I have room to improve it.

And why would I do so? I dont need to, I do just fine thanks. No need to spend a couple hundred thousand gold on four more changed trait pieces just to swap out for the 1 time a week I might do a dungeon with the guild.

Again, you do not have to permablock to tank. Also my block cost reduction in the next patch stays roughly the same when I swap 4 impen for 4 sturdy and move a few champs around (which will reduce very little since ill draw 2-3 from each to dump another 20 into blockcost redux), since impen will be worthless in PvP with all of the shields being used, and sturdy is going to be the go-to smalls trait for both tanks and general heavy armor users alike.

All at the same time my recovery rates will increase. So at the end of the day, if you have to crutch on taping down your right mouse button to be an effective tank, sorry but you kinda suck at it and sorry you wont be able to adapt.

I laugh, really hard, at the notion of All-In builds being the only "viable" solutions. if anything they make it more difficult, and expensive. It also railroads players into only knowing one way to play, which is then subject to.... oh look the bracing removal causing such an uproar, I wonder why....

DUTCH_REAPER

Made a 5 piece HA for my mDK and pvp'd him today in the PTS. Loved it.