The Gold Road Chapter – which includes the Scribing system – and Update 42 is now available to test on the PTS! You can read the latest patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/656454/
HA, LA, MA comparison, how can they all be desirable?
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hrothbern✭✭✭✭✭
✭Constitution needs in my opinion still a further buff:
Comparing Resource sustain between HA and LA,MA:
The Constitution passive gives a flat recovery, whereas LA/MA give mainly a percentual cost reduction and a smaller flat recovery.
In order to make a comparison, this wall of Math is therefore aimed at calculating for what amount of ability costs there is a break even between HA and LA,MA.
For abilities higher than that break even, the percentual cost reduction of LA and MA will always favor LA and MA above HA.
Bear also in mind that the ability costs have been increased in PTS.
Important note:
The HA Constitution passive gives both Magicka as Stamina restoration.
IF you use only Magicka or only Stamina abilities, the hybrid recovery purpose of Constitution will NEVER be really valuable for you !
The first assumption to be made is how to handle the hybrid resource regain of Constitution (Mag + Stam) so that we get a "like for like" with the mono Resource sustain of LA or MA.
The easiest way to do that is by conforming to the already by ZOS used method for hybrid features.
Those are Food (tri-stat, two-stat and one-stat), Drinks (same) and for example the bonus for Spell & Weapon Damage used in the Black Rose set.
If we normalise the values of Food and Drinks, and put the one-stat value at 100,
you get for Food:
one-stat: 100/---/---
two-stat: 80/80/---
tri-stat: 67/67/67
The same ratios are used for Drinks.
So the total stat increase effect for Food is for tri-stat 200, compared to 160 of the two-stat and 100 of the one-stat.
Hybrid and tanky-Tank builds use tri-stat. Focussed/stacking DPS/HPS builds use two-stat.
And apparently ZOS and everybody of the playerbase is comfortable with this method of giving BOTH dimishing returns PER stat for the more Hybrid Food, but also giving a higher overall total.
The same happens more or less with the hybrid Black Rose set if we compare that for example with the Kagrenac's hope set.
Black Rose has a 5 piece bonus for a damage effect of 154 more Spell AND Weapon Power, besides a second effect of increasing Constitution.
Kagrenac's hope has a 5 piece bonus for a Damage effect of 224 more Spell Power, besides a second effect of the 25% rezz time and the Magicka regain when an ally is rezzed.
If you divide the 154 by the 224 you get 68%.
So if you normalise that, you either get the one-stat bonus of 100 or two times 68 for Mag and Stam. (there is no Health Power)
So....
Ignoring Health and Health recovery aspects of Food and Drinks, because Constitution is about Magicka and Stamina only, 2x67 should be converted in 1x100
ZOS has done the same with the Black Rose set. They applied 2x68 in Black Rose instead of 1x100 in Kagenac.
Applying this to convert the two-stat Constitution bonus to a one stat, I think it is justified to say that we must take 67-68 as base to convert Constitution to a one stat recovery.
So if Constitution gives 186 per piece per 4 seconds of Stamina AND Magicka.
Then the converted value is (100/67*186) = 279 Magicka OR Stamina per piece per 4 seconds.
That is: Converted to one-stat Constitution this gives during combat per piece of HA Armor 70 Magicka per second OR 70 Stamina per second.
If you take for example one piece of LA, you get 4% Magicka Recovery, during combat and out of combat and you get 3% Cost reduction.
When your base Magicka Recovery would be around 700, the 4% per piece deliver 28 Magicka Recovery. When you have 71 CP in Arcanist for 20% more recovery, you get 34 Magicka Recovery per piece of LA, which is 17 Magicka per second.
Assuming for the sake of simplicity that you cast 1 ability per second:
If the 3% Cost reduction from one piece of LA gives (70 -17) = 53 Magicka Cost reduction, you have a break even between Constitution and LA passives.
1 divided by 3% = 33.3. So we have this break even, when abilities used have an average cost of 1766.
Assuming that you have put 100 CP, the rest of your 171 CP, in Magician for 16% Cost reduction:
The break even takes place at (1766/84%) = 2102.
Concluding:
LA or MA are better in Resource sustain than HA, if the average base value costs of your abilities per second casted are higher than 2102 !
In my opinion that break even point has to be shifted up from 2102 to 2700 minimal.
That means that the to one-stat converted Constitution must deliver 86 Magicka or Stamina per second.
Or that the unconverted two-stat Constitution must deliver 57.6 Magicka AND Stamina per second.
This is 230 per piece instead of the PTS value of 186 per piece, or a 24% increase of the PTS value.
But my suggestion to increase the PTS Constitution value is ofc a personal opinion and open for debate, where the break even ability costs used in practice are pivotal.
Here below the PTS base costs of some abilities, which are BTW increased compared to live !
Puncturing Sweeps: 2952
Reflective Light: 2700
BOL: 4590
Grand Healing: 3510
Regeneration: 2160
Force Shock:2700
Uppercut: 3240
Strife: 1367
Assassins Blade morphs: 1890 Magicka or 1511 Stamina
Veiled Strike morphs: 2700 Magicka or 2160 Stamina
Sap Essence: 3240
Burning Embers: 1350 Magicka
Lava Whip: 2700
Dragon Blood/Inhale/Earthen Heart: >4000
CrystalFragments: 4050 (2025)
Liquid Lightning: 3510
Conjured Ward: 3510
EDIT:
although this post is aimed at analysing the comparable viability of the three Armor types.
You can also boil it down to a very practical conclusion that if you love to walk around in HA, you just have to make a build that is using on average cheap enough abilities in the basic rotations, whereby the PTS buff of Constitution gives you already more Resource sustain and allows for a wider choice of sets.
Edited by hrothbern on April 30, 2016 2:00PM"I still do not understand why I followed the advice of Captain Rana to bring the villagers of Bleakrock into safety. We should have fought for our village and not have backed down, with our tail between our legs. Now my home village is in shambles, the houses burning, the invaders feasting.I swear every day to Shor that after Molag Bal has been defeated, I will hunt down the invaders and restore peace in Bleakrock and drink my mead with my friends at the market place".PC-EU3 -
Personofsecrets✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Or restore bracingDon't tank
"In future content we will probably adjust this model somewhat (The BOP model). It's definitely nice to be able to find a cool item that you don't need and trade it to someone who can't wait to get their hands on it." - Wrobel0 -
Personofsecrets✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭good work on this postDon't tank
"In future content we will probably adjust this model somewhat (The BOP model). It's definitely nice to be able to find a cool item that you don't need and trade it to someone who can't wait to get their hands on it." - Wrobel0 -
Personofsecrets✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭>Face when increasing constitution is basically like adding stamina regen while blocking back into the game.
WHAT WAS THE POINT?Don't tank
"In future content we will probably adjust this model somewhat (The BOP model). It's definitely nice to be able to find a cool item that you don't need and trade it to someone who can't wait to get their hands on it." - Wrobel2 -
What people expect on HA : Tankiness
In realty : Weakest in every aspect
Sadly, survivability is all about Block, dodge, and shield from day one. Now that HA lost its spot for block, all we have is 5% higher mitigation which means nothing in high burst meta.
I am doing just fine on a heavy armor templar that doesn't permablock, doesn't dodge much and doesn't shield at all.
In fact, this patch with all the heavy armor buffs is likely going to push it into the "ridiculously overpowered" territory.
@DDuke , you say:
I am doing just fine on a heavy armor templar that doesn't permablock, doesn't dodge much and doesn't shield at all.
I think all contributors and readers of this thread, as well as the thread http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/261958/restore-bracing-8-sturdy-12-5-block-cost-mitigation#latest
are keen to get a good comparison between LA, MA and HA assembled together.
There are many factors involved, which make such a comparison very difficult.
The most disturbing factors in modelling (what we try to do !), leading to confusing discussions, affecting the productive and constructive consensus, are always the hidden assumptions at the very core of a model.
From you highlighted statement I get the impression that you compare very much LA and HA in PVP.
In which case your root assumption is not identical to the root assumption of OP.
But I can be wrong. If so please correct me.
The simple question I have: Are you also doing just fine with HA in vMA ?
You showed a vid in PVP.
Can you also show a vid in vMA ?
My comparison thinking leads me to:
IF HA is comparable viable with LA, a HA build should be ok in doing vMA, be it, that it will be a "slow, but sure" build to do it, and ofc not reach the top of the weekly leaderboard.
(after all vMA is for DPS builds with the minimal sufficient Health sustain and minmal sufficient Resource to max out DPS/self-HPS)
I've done vMSA plenty of times on my Templar. Maybe I'll do a "Magicka Templar vMSA guide", though I already have a stamblade one on my channel.
I'd say it's a lot easier on the magicka templar tank, since everything basicly just tickles you. You can stand in AoEs, you can leave certain attacks unblocked, you don't need to roll dodge some things.
All things that are doable in heavy armor, but would result in a swift death for a light armor character.
@SirSilverMask
Again, you're numbers are very detached from reality. The only ones that have been correct are the armor mitigation differences.
10% crit=/=5% damage/healing, even if you deal/heal 50% with each crit.
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40 hits for 100 damage=4000
36 normal hits for 100 damage, 4 hits for 150 damage=4200 (5 increase, congratulations)
now, what if you don't have 0% crit chance?
50% crit chance:
20 hits for 150 damage, 20 hits for 100 damage=5000
add +10%
24 hits for 150 damage, 16 hits for 100 damage=5200
4% increase to your damage, not 5%.
Magic.
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How about 75% crit chance?
30 crits for 150 damage, 10 hits for 100 damage=5500
add +10%
34 crits for 150 damage, 6 hits for 100 damage=5700
3.7% increase to your damage, not 5%
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Ok, let's say you only have 30% crit chance.
12 crits for 150 damage, 28 hits for 100 damage=4600
add +10%
16 crits for 150 damage, 24 hits for 100 damage=4800
4.35% increase, not 5%.
As you see, the return you get from critical strike chance is subject to diminishing returns. Saying 10% crit=5% more dmg/healing is very shortsighted
By the way, what I forgot earlier is that Wrath also increases your healing by an average of 3.3% (I'm too lazy to calculate the exact number, but going by the basis that damaging abilities average 1.2% increase & heals have a slightly higher skillcoefficient). So the total amount heavy armor is going to increase your healing is somewhere in the vicinity of 11% rather than 8%.
Anyway, I invite you to prove me wrong!
Make a light armor magicka templar tank (PvE or PvP), show me it works & that you don't get instagibbed by anything and everything.
Your math above is correct however you fail to account for the LA passive of armor penetration. So the first number of 5% is just with a 10% crit chance on LA and 0% on HA (I know that never happens). If the other extreme is taken of 100% crit chance in LA and 90% crit chance in HA, given the same time frame the armor penetration on LA actually causes the separation between the 2 to stay pretty consistent. So at 10% LA and 0% HA crit and armor between 5K and 33K, HA does 89.6% of the damage of LA, while if increased to 100% LA and 90% HA crit then HA does 90.9% of the damage of LA. So the crit chance actually has a linear decline from 5% increased damage down to 3.7% increased damage. Basically you need to take the numbers you posted and add another 0.3% for the actual values due to the difference that the armor penetration provides between the damage of LA and HA when causing crit damage.
If you want to dig further down into the rabbit hole, remember that everything posted about HA shows that wrath is fully activated, so all differences would be increased slightly?0 -
kendellking_chaosb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭Good research, but you've left out a couple of things:
Light Armor only grants more damage vs people without a dmg shield, and that damage isn't even close to being "10-15% as you claim". 4884 Penetration=7.4% damage and the benefit you gain from Light Armor's 10% crit depends on target's impenetrable & your crit modifier.
For the record, Wrath passive=250 spell/weapon dmg when buffed with Major/Minor Sorcery/Brutality. 250 Spell/Weapon damage=3%~ damage.
So in the end, you either deal 3% more damage when wearing heavy armor or some 5-6% less damage compared to a light armor user (while gaining about 6.5% more mitigation).
As far as sustain goes... you cannot really compare ability costs with regeneration. Regeneration happens all the time, where as abilities aren't used all the time. Also, you get both magicka and stamina when hit, not only one of the two.
Another thing is that there are abilities in the game that actually benefit from having a high cost. I suggest you look at the Templar skill "Honor the Dead" & see what it does.
Also, increased healing received and health regen add a lot of "mitigation" which you don't necessarily realize while playing. This is especially true for a magicka templar using sweeps, for whom 8% healing received is a huge boost to survivability.
TLDR: I don't think heavy armor is as bad as you make it sound. In fact, it is in my opinion best armor to use as a magicka templar at the moment & hopefully it'll be good for other builds too after next patch's buffs.
One thing I agree on is that the mitigation differences should be much larger between the armor types. Though that would probably make heavy armor op, if everything else were to remain the same.
This is only the cast for Heavy Templars, my heavy Mage Templar uses Honor The Dead. For the magic return Rune into a Remembrance, when I'm taking high damage but that's a Templar thing.
Dragon Knights, Sorcerers and Nightblades all can be Tanky with heavy but do better in LA or MA. You can't just look at it from one class. My Sorc and Nightblade needed very specialized builds my Dragon Knight was not bad in HA just not anywhere as good as MA. HA is not that good.Chaos Shadow-Scale: Shadow Archer
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Star of Chaos: Frost Blade Champion
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For the King of Argonia
May Sithis hold back his Void1 -
Tell me with a straight face that this toon isnt strong for PvP
Tell me again, with a straight face, that these stats are bad for either tanking OR healing a vet dungeon or trial.
Tell me again, how 5HA is bad.
Holygoblin will disagree all day.
No where did I say that you could not successfully use HA, nor that it is bad. Just that it is not the optimal option given the average PvE circumstance. And given the state of most dungeons now, you can tank or heal all dungeons wearing any type of armor.
However I would challenge you to tank vMoL with that setup in the PTS compared to Live, and you would see that HA actually has more problems now then before, so yes with a straight face I will say that your setup is not good for tanking vMoL (the only real dungeon that requires work from a tank now in good groups, I know that a few other trials do require some work from tanks as well, but none quite as intensive).
No, HA is not bad, however it is underpowered in the current state compared to other armors unless you think that 5% damage mitigation is better then an increase of 10-15% damage (depending on how charged up wrath is). Realize that damage mitigation from LA and MA is increased through dodge rolls and shields.Edited by SirSilverMask on April 30, 2016 2:35PM3 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭SirSilverMask wrote: »Tell me with a straight face that this toon isnt strong for PvP
Tell me again, with a straight face, that these stats are bad for either tanking OR healing a vet dungeon or trial.
Tell me again, how 5HA is bad.
Holygoblin will disagree all day.
No where did I say that you could not successfully use HA, nor that it is bad. Just that it is not the optimal option given the average PvE circumstance. And given the stat of most dungeons now, you can tank or heal all dungeons wearing any type of armor.
However I would challenge you to tank vMoL with that setup in the PTS compared to Live, and you would see that HA actually has more problems now then before, so yes with a straight face I will say that your setup is not good for tanking vMoL (the only real dungeon that requires work from a tank now in good groups, I know that a few other trials do require some work from tanks as well, but none quite as intensive).
No, HA is not bad, however it is underpowered in the current state compared to other armors unless you think that 5% damage mitigation is better then an increase of 10-15% damage (depending on how charged up wrath is). Realize that damage mitigation from LA and MA is increased through dodge rolls and shields.
I would challenge you to tank vMoL in light or medium.
If you think people use heavy armor there because it's cheaper to block, you're sadly mistaken...
I think we can end the discussion right here.0 -
Rylana✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭SirSilverMask wrote: »Tell me with a straight face that this toon isnt strong for PvP
Tell me again, with a straight face, that these stats are bad for either tanking OR healing a vet dungeon or trial.
Tell me again, how 5HA is bad.
Holygoblin will disagree all day.
No where did I say that you could not successfully use HA, nor that it is bad. Just that it is not the optimal option given the average PvE circumstance. And given the stat of most dungeons now, you can tank or heal all dungeons wearing any type of armor.
However I would challenge you to tank vMoL with that setup in the PTS compared to Live, and you would see that HA actually has more problems now then before, so yes with a straight face I will say that your setup is not good for tanking vMoL (the only real dungeon that requires work from a tank now in good groups, I know that a few other trials do require some work from tanks as well, but none quite as intensive).
No, HA is not bad, however it is underpowered in the current state compared to other armors unless you think that 5% damage mitigation is better then an increase of 10-15% damage (depending on how charged up wrath is). Realize that damage mitigation from LA and MA is increased through dodge rolls and shields.
I would challenge you to tank vMoL in light or medium.
If you think people use heavy armor there because it's cheaper to block, you're sadly mistaken...
I think we can end the discussion right here.
Mitigation is mitigation, lol. Sad he doesnt get it.@rylanadionysis == Closed Beta Tester October 2013 == Retired October 2016 == Uninstalled @ One Tamriel Release == Inactive Indefinitely
Ebonheart Pact: Lyzara Dionysis - Sorc - AR 37 (Former Empress of Blackwater Blade and Haderus) == Shondra Dionysis - Temp - AR 23 == Arrianaya Dionysis - DK - AR 17
Aldmeri Dominion: Rylana Dionysis - DK - AR 25 == Kailiana - NB - AR 21 == Minerva Dionysis - Temp - AR 21 == Victoria Dionysis - Sorc - AR 13
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Sugaroverdose✭✭✭✭✭
Most of those who complain about change does run heavy because of cheaper block, and it's not one or two people, you second time starts to apply you templar build experience to everyone, that's not a good idea.SirSilverMask wrote: »Tell me with a straight face that this toon isnt strong for PvP
Tell me again, with a straight face, that these stats are bad for either tanking OR healing a vet dungeon or trial.
Tell me again, how 5HA is bad.
Holygoblin will disagree all day.
No where did I say that you could not successfully use HA, nor that it is bad. Just that it is not the optimal option given the average PvE circumstance. And given the stat of most dungeons now, you can tank or heal all dungeons wearing any type of armor.
However I would challenge you to tank vMoL with that setup in the PTS compared to Live, and you would see that HA actually has more problems now then before, so yes with a straight face I will say that your setup is not good for tanking vMoL (the only real dungeon that requires work from a tank now in good groups, I know that a few other trials do require some work from tanks as well, but none quite as intensive).
No, HA is not bad, however it is underpowered in the current state compared to other armors unless you think that 5% damage mitigation is better then an increase of 10-15% damage (depending on how charged up wrath is). Realize that damage mitigation from LA and MA is increased through dodge rolls and shields.
I would challenge you to tank vMoL in light or medium.
If you think people use heavy armor there because it's cheaper to block, you're sadly mistaken...
I think we can end the discussion right here.
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Rylana✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭SirSilverMask wrote: »Tell me with a straight face that this toon isnt strong for PvP
Tell me again, with a straight face, that these stats are bad for either tanking OR healing a vet dungeon or trial.
Tell me again, how 5HA is bad.
Holygoblin will disagree all day.
No where did I say that you could not successfully use HA, nor that it is bad. Just that it is not the optimal option given the average PvE circumstance. And given the state of most dungeons now, you can tank or heal all dungeons wearing any type of armor.
However I would challenge you to tank vMoL with that setup in the PTS compared to Live, and you would see that HA actually has more problems now then before, so yes with a straight face I will say that your setup is not good for tanking vMoL (the only real dungeon that requires work from a tank now in good groups, I know that a few other trials do require some work from tanks as well, but none quite as intensive).
No, HA is not bad, however it is underpowered in the current state compared to other armors unless you think that 5% damage mitigation is better then an increase of 10-15% damage (depending on how charged up wrath is). Realize that damage mitigation from LA and MA is increased through dodge rolls and shields.
It costs a LOT more to dodge roll than it does to block, and dodge rolls increase in cost per use within a certain timeframe. You will burn out way more stam trying to roll dodge than you ever would holding block, period end of discussion.
Avoidance tanks are absolute trash and every time I have ever ran with one, it ended badly. Miti tanks are the only ones that matter.
On the above magicka templar, I can spam harness and blazing shield FOR DAYS, especially against things hitting me with magic damage. Whatever gets through runs into 30k mitigation. I barely need to block, tbqh, only actually do on heavy hits which one learns to anticipate with practice. Ive never used heavy for the cost reduction to block, not only have there been enchants for that, there are also champ points, and there comes a time where you wont reduce it any further to matter.
Now add that in to the fact that my Templar, as is, can tank ANYTHING in the game without permablocking, and then add more regen from constitution for those times I need to block, and id say ive pretty much destroyed your whole argument.
Basically your whole thread rant is a huge veiled whine about bracing being removed, we can all see it now for what it is. Those of us that arent just taped down right mouse buttons do just fine thank you, and will do even better after DB hits live.Edited by Rylana on April 30, 2016 3:00PM@rylanadionysis == Closed Beta Tester October 2013 == Retired October 2016 == Uninstalled @ One Tamriel Release == Inactive Indefinitely
Ebonheart Pact: Lyzara Dionysis - Sorc - AR 37 (Former Empress of Blackwater Blade and Haderus) == Shondra Dionysis - Temp - AR 23 == Arrianaya Dionysis - DK - AR 17
Aldmeri Dominion: Rylana Dionysis - DK - AR 25 == Kailiana - NB - AR 21 == Minerva Dionysis - Temp - AR 21 == Victoria Dionysis - Sorc - AR 13
Daggerfall Covenant: Dannika Dionysis - DK - AR 21 == The Catman Rises - Temp - AR 15 (Former Emperor of Blackwater Blade)
Forum LOL Champion (retired) == Black Belt in Ballista-Fu == The Last Vice Member == Praise Cheesus == Electro-Goblin2 -
SirSilverMask wrote: »Tell me with a straight face that this toon isnt strong for PvP
Tell me again, with a straight face, that these stats are bad for either tanking OR healing a vet dungeon or trial.
Tell me again, how 5HA is bad.
Holygoblin will disagree all day.
No where did I say that you could not successfully use HA, nor that it is bad. Just that it is not the optimal option given the average PvE circumstance. And given the stat of most dungeons now, you can tank or heal all dungeons wearing any type of armor.
However I would challenge you to tank vMoL with that setup in the PTS compared to Live, and you would see that HA actually has more problems now then before, so yes with a straight face I will say that your setup is not good for tanking vMoL (the only real dungeon that requires work from a tank now in good groups, I know that a few other trials do require some work from tanks as well, but none quite as intensive).
No, HA is not bad, however it is underpowered in the current state compared to other armors unless you think that 5% damage mitigation is better then an increase of 10-15% damage (depending on how charged up wrath is). Realize that damage mitigation from LA and MA is increased through dodge rolls and shields.
I would challenge you to tank vMoL in light or medium.
If you think people use heavy armor there because it's cheaper to block, you're sadly mistaken...
I think we can end the discussion right here.
Mitigation is mitigation, lol. Sad he doesnt get it.
Except that LA spell penetration decreases the effect by 7.4%, so the HA wearer actually has 2.4% less mitigation overall less protection then the LA wearer in the PvP case. Add to all this that if you want to reach armor cap in 5 piece LA, you can. Meaning that anything above armor cap actually doesn't increase your mitigation. So a major difference in live becomes the ability to sustain blocks.0 -
Armitas✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
As a DK I don't see why I need heavy armor at all for PvE content now. I can couple bracing to a light armor Armor Master set, sit at mit cap, with tons of health, blocking like heavy armor, shielding like light armor, while liberally popping igneous shield, poisons and weapon glyphs for stamina. But even so, why should vMoL be the only reason to wear heavy armor in PvE content?SirSilverMask wrote: »Tell me with a straight face that this toon isnt strong for PvP
Tell me again, with a straight face, that these stats are bad for either tanking OR healing a vet dungeon or trial.
Tell me again, how 5HA is bad.
Holygoblin will disagree all day.
No where did I say that you could not successfully use HA, nor that it is bad. Just that it is not the optimal option given the average PvE circumstance. And given the stat of most dungeons now, you can tank or heal all dungeons wearing any type of armor.
However I would challenge you to tank vMoL with that setup in the PTS compared to Live, and you would see that HA actually has more problems now then before, so yes with a straight face I will say that your setup is not good for tanking vMoL (the only real dungeon that requires work from a tank now in good groups, I know that a few other trials do require some work from tanks as well, but none quite as intensive).
No, HA is not bad, however it is underpowered in the current state compared to other armors unless you think that 5% damage mitigation is better then an increase of 10-15% damage (depending on how charged up wrath is). Realize that damage mitigation from LA and MA is increased through dodge rolls and shields.
I would challenge you to tank vMoL in light or medium.
If you think people use heavy armor there because it's cheaper to block, you're sadly mistaken...
I think we can end the discussion right here.Retired.
Nord mDK0 -
SirSilverMask wrote: »Tell me with a straight face that this toon isnt strong for PvP
Tell me again, with a straight face, that these stats are bad for either tanking OR healing a vet dungeon or trial.
Tell me again, how 5HA is bad.
Holygoblin will disagree all day.
No where did I say that you could not successfully use HA, nor that it is bad. Just that it is not the optimal option given the average PvE circumstance. And given the state of most dungeons now, you can tank or heal all dungeons wearing any type of armor.
However I would challenge you to tank vMoL with that setup in the PTS compared to Live, and you would see that HA actually has more problems now then before, so yes with a straight face I will say that your setup is not good for tanking vMoL (the only real dungeon that requires work from a tank now in good groups, I know that a few other trials do require some work from tanks as well, but none quite as intensive).
No, HA is not bad, however it is underpowered in the current state compared to other armors unless you think that 5% damage mitigation is better then an increase of 10-15% damage (depending on how charged up wrath is). Realize that damage mitigation from LA and MA is increased through dodge rolls and shields.
It costs a LOT more to dodge roll than it does to block, and dodge rolls increase in cost per use within a certain timeframe. You will burn out way more stam trying to roll dodge than you ever would holding block, period end of discussion.
Avoidance tanks are absolute trash and every time I have ever ran with one, it ended badly. Miti tanks are the only ones that matter.
On the above magicka templar, I can spam harness and blazing shield FOR DAYS, especially against things hitting me with magic damage. Whatever gets through runs into 30k mitigation. I barely need to block, tbqh, only actually do on heavy hits which one learns to anticipate with practice. Ive never used heavy for the cost reduction to block, not only have there been enchants for that, there are also champ points, and there comes a time where you wont reduce it any further to matter.
Now add that in to the fact that my Templar, as is, can tank ANYTHING in the game without permablocking, and then add more regen from constitution for those times I need to block, and id say ive pretty much destroyed your whole argument.
Basically your whole thread rant is a huge veiled whine about bracing being removed, we can all see it now for what it is. Those of us that arent just taped down right mouse buttons do just fine thank you, and will do even better after DB hits live.
As for the dodge roll cost, yes it costs about 50% more to dodge roll then to block without anything decreasing the cost of either one. Also for dodge rolls you can dodge roll once every 5 seconds without the cost increasing, a MA user can use 7 dodge rolls with the same amount of stamina that LA or HA would use during 6 dodge rolls. Also a dodge roll provides phase for 3 seconds, so one extra dodge roll is 3 extra seconds of phase. A dodge roll mitigate 100%, but really that is only 1 extra dodge roll every 35 seconds of a fight, so that equates to 2.8% mitigation in a 1v1 with every attack hitting for the same damage and the extra dodge roll only mitigating one attack, otherwise if you dodge roll the stronger attacks it becomes slightly more. I have never said anything about permablocking, as I also think that is bad. You have in fact appeared to ignore most of the information, no where did I say that you could not tank in HA and no where did I say you have to permablock, and I really am trying to focus on the percent differences and the problems caused so that each armor is viable. Though if focusing on current costs, based on average reductions that people use to block, most seem to agree that the cost of blocking increased 100 stamina per block.
I agree that you will do just fine tanking after DB hits, but again what really requires a tank anymore? Additionally I present the argument that you could actually perform better tanking PvE in LA given your play style even after DB becomes live, especially 4 man dungeons.0 -
As a DK I don't see why I need heavy armor at all for PvE content now. I can couple bracing to a light armor Armor Master set, sit at mit cap, with tons of health, blocking like heavy armor, shielding like light armor, while liberally popping igneous shield, poisons and weapon glyphs for stamina. But even so, why should vMoL be the only reason to wear heavy armor in PvE content?SirSilverMask wrote: »Tell me with a straight face that this toon isnt strong for PvP
Tell me again, with a straight face, that these stats are bad for either tanking OR healing a vet dungeon or trial.
Tell me again, how 5HA is bad.
Holygoblin will disagree all day.
No where did I say that you could not successfully use HA, nor that it is bad. Just that it is not the optimal option given the average PvE circumstance. And given the stat of most dungeons now, you can tank or heal all dungeons wearing any type of armor.
However I would challenge you to tank vMoL with that setup in the PTS compared to Live, and you would see that HA actually has more problems now then before, so yes with a straight face I will say that your setup is not good for tanking vMoL (the only real dungeon that requires work from a tank now in good groups, I know that a few other trials do require some work from tanks as well, but none quite as intensive).
No, HA is not bad, however it is underpowered in the current state compared to other armors unless you think that 5% damage mitigation is better then an increase of 10-15% damage (depending on how charged up wrath is). Realize that damage mitigation from LA and MA is increased through dodge rolls and shields.
I would challenge you to tank vMoL in light or medium.
If you think people use heavy armor there because it's cheaper to block, you're sadly mistaken...
I think we can end the discussion right here.
Thanks for the addition. I have seen people try tanking vMoL in light armor, and the only problem becomes the ability to sustain blocks, because the armor mitigation can reach cap.
In order to mitigate this problem, maybe the mitigation cap needs to be removed so you can't receive the same mitigation while wearing LA as you do while wearing HA, which would ensure that the 5% difference in mitigation at least remains present.0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
As a DK I don't see why I need heavy armor at all for PvE content now. I can couple bracing to a light armor Armor Master set, sit at mit cap, with tons of health, blocking like heavy armor, shielding like light armor, while liberally popping igneous shield, poisons and weapon glyphs for stamina. But even so, why should vMoL be the only reason to wear heavy armor in PvE content?SirSilverMask wrote: »Tell me with a straight face that this toon isnt strong for PvP
Tell me again, with a straight face, that these stats are bad for either tanking OR healing a vet dungeon or trial.
Tell me again, how 5HA is bad.
Holygoblin will disagree all day.
No where did I say that you could not successfully use HA, nor that it is bad. Just that it is not the optimal option given the average PvE circumstance. And given the stat of most dungeons now, you can tank or heal all dungeons wearing any type of armor.
However I would challenge you to tank vMoL with that setup in the PTS compared to Live, and you would see that HA actually has more problems now then before, so yes with a straight face I will say that your setup is not good for tanking vMoL (the only real dungeon that requires work from a tank now in good groups, I know that a few other trials do require some work from tanks as well, but none quite as intensive).
No, HA is not bad, however it is underpowered in the current state compared to other armors unless you think that 5% damage mitigation is better then an increase of 10-15% damage (depending on how charged up wrath is). Realize that damage mitigation from LA and MA is increased through dodge rolls and shields.
I would challenge you to tank vMoL in light or medium.
If you think people use heavy armor there because it's cheaper to block, you're sadly mistaken...
I think we can end the discussion right here.
Wearing Armor Master, you already sacrifice any benefits you might hope to gain over heavy armor by using Light. It's 5 item slots dedicated to bringing your mitigation on par with a heavy armor user, where as heavy armor user can slot something that helps his dmg/healing/grp utility.
Try tanking without Armor Master in LA/MA - you'll simply get killed through block because you lack mitigation & you lack the health/healing received passives from heavy armor.
As for your point about other content... You're correct, heavy armor is not required there. Is there a reason for wearing it though? Well yes, if you dont want to dodge roll around or spam shields (when you don't have a healer keeping you alive), but would rather base your survivability on mitigation. In that case, there's a perfect reason for running with heavy armor.SirSilverMask wrote: »SirSilverMask wrote: »Tell me with a straight face that this toon isnt strong for PvP
Tell me again, with a straight face, that these stats are bad for either tanking OR healing a vet dungeon or trial.
Tell me again, how 5HA is bad.
Holygoblin will disagree all day.
No where did I say that you could not successfully use HA, nor that it is bad. Just that it is not the optimal option given the average PvE circumstance. And given the stat of most dungeons now, you can tank or heal all dungeons wearing any type of armor.
However I would challenge you to tank vMoL with that setup in the PTS compared to Live, and you would see that HA actually has more problems now then before, so yes with a straight face I will say that your setup is not good for tanking vMoL (the only real dungeon that requires work from a tank now in good groups, I know that a few other trials do require some work from tanks as well, but none quite as intensive).
No, HA is not bad, however it is underpowered in the current state compared to other armors unless you think that 5% damage mitigation is better then an increase of 10-15% damage (depending on how charged up wrath is). Realize that damage mitigation from LA and MA is increased through dodge rolls and shields.
I would challenge you to tank vMoL in light or medium.
If you think people use heavy armor there because it's cheaper to block, you're sadly mistaken...
I think we can end the discussion right here.
Mitigation is mitigation, lol. Sad he doesnt get it.
Except that LA spell penetration decreases the effect by 7.4%, so the HA wearer actually has 2.4% less mitigation overall less protection then the LA wearer in the PvP case. Add to all this that if you want to reach armor cap in 5 piece LA, you can. Meaning that anything above armor cap actually doesn't increase your mitigation. So a major difference in live becomes the ability to sustain blocks.
Excuse me, but where do you come up with the assumption that Heavy Armor gives only 5% more mitigation than Light Armor?
With min-maxed setups (following is always true: heavy chest, light belt, medium helm)
Physical Resistance
21661 5 Heavy 1 Light 1 Medium
15912 5 Light 1 Heavy 1 Medium
A difference of 5749, or in other words 8.71% mitigation.
Spell Resistance
28703 5 Heavy 1 Light 1 Medium
24406 5 Light 1 Heavy 1 Medium
A difference of 4297, or in other words 6.51% mitigation.
Just for your amusement, lets compare 7 Heavy armor to 7 Light:
Spell Resistance
30183 7 Heavy
22792 7 Light
A difference of 7391, or in other words 11.2% mitigation
Physical Resistance
23504 7 Heavy
13572 7 Light
A difference of 9932, or in other words 15% mitigation.
This is all without even using Reinforced traits, which would only make the differences even bigger.
Can we please stop this nonsense where you write numbers, and I have to correct them?Edited by DDuke on April 30, 2016 3:54PM0 -
Personofsecrets✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I use heavy in vMol because it makes it cheaper to block.Don't tank
"In future content we will probably adjust this model somewhat (The BOP model). It's definitely nice to be able to find a cool item that you don't need and trade it to someone who can't wait to get their hands on it." - Wrobel2 -
Sugaroverdose✭✭✭✭✭
What about to say where you get this values and what traits used on both LA and HA? If i remember it right on live my magplar have something like 17.8k on offensive bar with 5xHeavy, 2xLight (heavy chest reinforced, light hat reinforced)
As a DK I don't see why I need heavy armor at all for PvE content now. I can couple bracing to a light armor Armor Master set, sit at mit cap, with tons of health, blocking like heavy armor, shielding like light armor, while liberally popping igneous shield, poisons and weapon glyphs for stamina. But even so, why should vMoL be the only reason to wear heavy armor in PvE content?SirSilverMask wrote: »Tell me with a straight face that this toon isnt strong for PvP
Tell me again, with a straight face, that these stats are bad for either tanking OR healing a vet dungeon or trial.
Tell me again, how 5HA is bad.
Holygoblin will disagree all day.
No where did I say that you could not successfully use HA, nor that it is bad. Just that it is not the optimal option given the average PvE circumstance. And given the stat of most dungeons now, you can tank or heal all dungeons wearing any type of armor.
However I would challenge you to tank vMoL with that setup in the PTS compared to Live, and you would see that HA actually has more problems now then before, so yes with a straight face I will say that your setup is not good for tanking vMoL (the only real dungeon that requires work from a tank now in good groups, I know that a few other trials do require some work from tanks as well, but none quite as intensive).
No, HA is not bad, however it is underpowered in the current state compared to other armors unless you think that 5% damage mitigation is better then an increase of 10-15% damage (depending on how charged up wrath is). Realize that damage mitigation from LA and MA is increased through dodge rolls and shields.
I would challenge you to tank vMoL in light or medium.
If you think people use heavy armor there because it's cheaper to block, you're sadly mistaken...
I think we can end the discussion right here.
Wearing Armor Master, you already sacrifice any benefits you might hope to gain over heavy armor by using Light. It's 5 item slots dedicated to bringing your mitigation on par with a heavy armor user, where as heavy armor user can slot something that helps his dmg/healing/grp utility.
Try tanking without Armor Master in LA/MA - you'll simply get killed through block because you lack mitigation & you lack the health/healing received passives from heavy armor.
As for your point about other content... You're correct, heavy armor is not required there. Is there a reason for wearing it though? Well yes, if you dont want to dodge roll around or spam shields (when you don't have a healer keeping you alive), but would rather base your survivability on mitigation. In that case, there's a perfect reason for running with heavy armor.SirSilverMask wrote: »SirSilverMask wrote: »Tell me with a straight face that this toon isnt strong for PvP
Tell me again, with a straight face, that these stats are bad for either tanking OR healing a vet dungeon or trial.
Tell me again, how 5HA is bad.
Holygoblin will disagree all day.
No where did I say that you could not successfully use HA, nor that it is bad. Just that it is not the optimal option given the average PvE circumstance. And given the stat of most dungeons now, you can tank or heal all dungeons wearing any type of armor.
However I would challenge you to tank vMoL with that setup in the PTS compared to Live, and you would see that HA actually has more problems now then before, so yes with a straight face I will say that your setup is not good for tanking vMoL (the only real dungeon that requires work from a tank now in good groups, I know that a few other trials do require some work from tanks as well, but none quite as intensive).
No, HA is not bad, however it is underpowered in the current state compared to other armors unless you think that 5% damage mitigation is better then an increase of 10-15% damage (depending on how charged up wrath is). Realize that damage mitigation from LA and MA is increased through dodge rolls and shields.
I would challenge you to tank vMoL in light or medium.
If you think people use heavy armor there because it's cheaper to block, you're sadly mistaken...
I think we can end the discussion right here.
Mitigation is mitigation, lol. Sad he doesnt get it.
Except that LA spell penetration decreases the effect by 7.4%, so the HA wearer actually has 2.4% less mitigation overall less protection then the LA wearer in the PvP case. Add to all this that if you want to reach armor cap in 5 piece LA, you can. Meaning that anything above armor cap actually doesn't increase your mitigation. So a major difference in live becomes the ability to sustain blocks.
Excuse me, but where do you come up with the assumption that Heavy Armor gives only 5% more mitigation than Light Armor?
With min-maxed setups (following is always true: heavy chest, light belt, medium helm)
Physical Resistance
21661 5 Heavy 1 Light 1 Medium
15912 5 Light 1 Heavy 1 Medium
A difference of 5749, or in other words 8.71% mitigation.
Spell Resistance
28703 5 Heavy 1 Light 1 Medium
24406 5 Light 1 Heavy 1 Medium
A difference of 4297, or in other words 6.51% mitigation.
Just for your amusement, lets compare 7 Heavy armor to 7 Light:
Spell Resistance
30183 7 Heavy
22792 7 Light
A difference of 7391, or in other words 11.2% mitigation
Physical Resistance
23504 7 Heavy
13572 7 Light
A difference of 9932, or in other words 15% mitigation.
This is all without even using Reinforced traits, which would only make the differences even bigger.
Can we please stop this nonsense where you write numbers, and I have to correct them?
0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Sugaroverdose wrote: »
What about to say where you get this values and what traits used on both LA and HA? If i remember it right on live my magplar have something like 17.8k on offensive bar with 5xHeavy, 2xLight (heavy chest reinforced, light hat reinforced)
As a DK I don't see why I need heavy armor at all for PvE content now. I can couple bracing to a light armor Armor Master set, sit at mit cap, with tons of health, blocking like heavy armor, shielding like light armor, while liberally popping igneous shield, poisons and weapon glyphs for stamina. But even so, why should vMoL be the only reason to wear heavy armor in PvE content?SirSilverMask wrote: »Tell me with a straight face that this toon isnt strong for PvP
Tell me again, with a straight face, that these stats are bad for either tanking OR healing a vet dungeon or trial.
Tell me again, how 5HA is bad.
Holygoblin will disagree all day.
No where did I say that you could not successfully use HA, nor that it is bad. Just that it is not the optimal option given the average PvE circumstance. And given the stat of most dungeons now, you can tank or heal all dungeons wearing any type of armor.
However I would challenge you to tank vMoL with that setup in the PTS compared to Live, and you would see that HA actually has more problems now then before, so yes with a straight face I will say that your setup is not good for tanking vMoL (the only real dungeon that requires work from a tank now in good groups, I know that a few other trials do require some work from tanks as well, but none quite as intensive).
No, HA is not bad, however it is underpowered in the current state compared to other armors unless you think that 5% damage mitigation is better then an increase of 10-15% damage (depending on how charged up wrath is). Realize that damage mitigation from LA and MA is increased through dodge rolls and shields.
I would challenge you to tank vMoL in light or medium.
If you think people use heavy armor there because it's cheaper to block, you're sadly mistaken...
I think we can end the discussion right here.
Wearing Armor Master, you already sacrifice any benefits you might hope to gain over heavy armor by using Light. It's 5 item slots dedicated to bringing your mitigation on par with a heavy armor user, where as heavy armor user can slot something that helps his dmg/healing/grp utility.
Try tanking without Armor Master in LA/MA - you'll simply get killed through block because you lack mitigation & you lack the health/healing received passives from heavy armor.
As for your point about other content... You're correct, heavy armor is not required there. Is there a reason for wearing it though? Well yes, if you dont want to dodge roll around or spam shields (when you don't have a healer keeping you alive), but would rather base your survivability on mitigation. In that case, there's a perfect reason for running with heavy armor.SirSilverMask wrote: »SirSilverMask wrote: »Tell me with a straight face that this toon isnt strong for PvP
Tell me again, with a straight face, that these stats are bad for either tanking OR healing a vet dungeon or trial.
Tell me again, how 5HA is bad.
Holygoblin will disagree all day.
No where did I say that you could not successfully use HA, nor that it is bad. Just that it is not the optimal option given the average PvE circumstance. And given the stat of most dungeons now, you can tank or heal all dungeons wearing any type of armor.
However I would challenge you to tank vMoL with that setup in the PTS compared to Live, and you would see that HA actually has more problems now then before, so yes with a straight face I will say that your setup is not good for tanking vMoL (the only real dungeon that requires work from a tank now in good groups, I know that a few other trials do require some work from tanks as well, but none quite as intensive).
No, HA is not bad, however it is underpowered in the current state compared to other armors unless you think that 5% damage mitigation is better then an increase of 10-15% damage (depending on how charged up wrath is). Realize that damage mitigation from LA and MA is increased through dodge rolls and shields.
I would challenge you to tank vMoL in light or medium.
If you think people use heavy armor there because it's cheaper to block, you're sadly mistaken...
I think we can end the discussion right here.
Mitigation is mitigation, lol. Sad he doesnt get it.
Except that LA spell penetration decreases the effect by 7.4%, so the HA wearer actually has 2.4% less mitigation overall less protection then the LA wearer in the PvP case. Add to all this that if you want to reach armor cap in 5 piece LA, you can. Meaning that anything above armor cap actually doesn't increase your mitigation. So a major difference in live becomes the ability to sustain blocks.
Excuse me, but where do you come up with the assumption that Heavy Armor gives only 5% more mitigation than Light Armor?
With min-maxed setups (following is always true: heavy chest, light belt, medium helm)
Physical Resistance
21661 5 Heavy 1 Light 1 Medium
15912 5 Light 1 Heavy 1 Medium
A difference of 5749, or in other words 8.71% mitigation.
Spell Resistance
28703 5 Heavy 1 Light 1 Medium
24406 5 Light 1 Heavy 1 Medium
A difference of 4297, or in other words 6.51% mitigation.
Just for your amusement, lets compare 7 Heavy armor to 7 Light:
Spell Resistance
30183 7 Heavy
22792 7 Light
A difference of 7391, or in other words 11.2% mitigation
Physical Resistance
23504 7 Heavy
13572 7 Light
A difference of 9932, or in other words 15% mitigation.
This is all without even using Reinforced traits, which would only make the differences even bigger.
Can we please stop this nonsense where you write numbers, and I have to correct them?
The stats are from PTS template (Breton Templar, if that matters). I just literally logged on, equipped 7 heavy pieces of that new Galerion set (it has no physical & spell resistance bonuses) then I equipped 7 light pieces & compared.
I also did the same with 5/1/1 setups using the same set & same traits (Infused on large parts & divines on small ones).
All legendary quality btwEdited by DDuke on April 30, 2016 4:26PM0 -
As a DK I don't see why I need heavy armor at all for PvE content now. I can couple bracing to a light armor Armor Master set, sit at mit cap, with tons of health, blocking like heavy armor, shielding like light armor, while liberally popping igneous shield, poisons and weapon glyphs for stamina. But even so, why should vMoL be the only reason to wear heavy armor in PvE content?SirSilverMask wrote: »Tell me with a straight face that this toon isnt strong for PvP
Tell me again, with a straight face, that these stats are bad for either tanking OR healing a vet dungeon or trial.
Tell me again, how 5HA is bad.
Holygoblin will disagree all day.
No where did I say that you could not successfully use HA, nor that it is bad. Just that it is not the optimal option given the average PvE circumstance. And given the stat of most dungeons now, you can tank or heal all dungeons wearing any type of armor.
However I would challenge you to tank vMoL with that setup in the PTS compared to Live, and you would see that HA actually has more problems now then before, so yes with a straight face I will say that your setup is not good for tanking vMoL (the only real dungeon that requires work from a tank now in good groups, I know that a few other trials do require some work from tanks as well, but none quite as intensive).
No, HA is not bad, however it is underpowered in the current state compared to other armors unless you think that 5% damage mitigation is better then an increase of 10-15% damage (depending on how charged up wrath is). Realize that damage mitigation from LA and MA is increased through dodge rolls and shields.
I would challenge you to tank vMoL in light or medium.
If you think people use heavy armor there because it's cheaper to block, you're sadly mistaken...
I think we can end the discussion right here.
Wearing Armor Master, you already sacrifice any benefits you might hope to gain over heavy armor by using Light. It's 5 item slots dedicated to bringing your mitigation on par with a heavy armor user, where as heavy armor user can slot something that helps his dmg/healing/grp utility.
Try tanking without Armor Master in LA/MA - you'll simply get killed through block because you lack mitigation & you lack the health/healing received passives from heavy armor.
As for your point about other content... You're correct, heavy armor is not required there. Is there a reason for wearing it though? Well yes, if you dont want to dodge roll around or spam shields (when you don't have a healer keeping you alive), but would rather base your survivability on mitigation. In that case, there's a perfect reason for running with heavy armor.SirSilverMask wrote: »SirSilverMask wrote: »Tell me with a straight face that this toon isnt strong for PvP
Tell me again, with a straight face, that these stats are bad for either tanking OR healing a vet dungeon or trial.
Tell me again, how 5HA is bad.
Holygoblin will disagree all day.
No where did I say that you could not successfully use HA, nor that it is bad. Just that it is not the optimal option given the average PvE circumstance. And given the stat of most dungeons now, you can tank or heal all dungeons wearing any type of armor.
However I would challenge you to tank vMoL with that setup in the PTS compared to Live, and you would see that HA actually has more problems now then before, so yes with a straight face I will say that your setup is not good for tanking vMoL (the only real dungeon that requires work from a tank now in good groups, I know that a few other trials do require some work from tanks as well, but none quite as intensive).
No, HA is not bad, however it is underpowered in the current state compared to other armors unless you think that 5% damage mitigation is better then an increase of 10-15% damage (depending on how charged up wrath is). Realize that damage mitigation from LA and MA is increased through dodge rolls and shields.
I would challenge you to tank vMoL in light or medium.
If you think people use heavy armor there because it's cheaper to block, you're sadly mistaken...
I think we can end the discussion right here.
Mitigation is mitigation, lol. Sad he doesnt get it.
Except that LA spell penetration decreases the effect by 7.4%, so the HA wearer actually has 2.4% less mitigation overall less protection then the LA wearer in the PvP case. Add to all this that if you want to reach armor cap in 5 piece LA, you can. Meaning that anything above armor cap actually doesn't increase your mitigation. So a major difference in live becomes the ability to sustain blocks.
Excuse me, but where do you come up with the assumption that Heavy Armor gives only 5% more mitigation than Light Armor?
With min-maxed setups (following is always true: heavy chest, light belt, medium helm)
Physical Resistance
21661 5 Heavy 1 Light 1 Medium
15912 5 Light 1 Heavy 1 Medium
A difference of 5749, or in other words 8.71% mitigation.
Spell Resistance
28703 5 Heavy 1 Light 1 Medium
24406 5 Light 1 Heavy 1 Medium
A difference of 4297, or in other words 6.51% mitigation.
Just for your amusement, lets compare 7 Heavy armor to 7 Light:
Spell Resistance
30183 7 Heavy
22792 7 Light
A difference of 7391, or in other words 11.2% mitigation
Physical Resistance
23504 7 Heavy
13572 7 Light
A difference of 9932, or in other words 15% mitigation.
This is all without even using Reinforced traits, which would only make the differences even bigger.
Can we please stop this nonsense where you write numbers, and I have to correct them?
Again thank you for the addition, but please remember that you are not correcting anything, you are providing a different scenario. Not everyone has time to keep running dungeons and always have the helm and shoulders that they actually want, though that is changing a little with the sets being sold in cyrodiil. For those who truly min max characters in that way you are correct, and if you noticed I also noted that reinforced does change numbers.
Please remember that no where did I say that HA was "extremely underpowered," I just noted that it is slightly underpowered. Additionally, please remember that I think LA can do with a few tweaks to make it better match MA.
For HA, only a 5% increase in mitigation and 5% more resources from constitution would make it sync up better. For HA, someone noted earlier that a 2.5%/5% passive boost in mitigation would work, and I agree with that. It would be nice if that was added onto the final mitigation and could take the possible mitigation from 50 to 55% but only for people wearing 5 pieces of HA, so no matter what LA and MA wearers could never achieve the maximum possible mitigation which could be provided by HA wearers. Shields should not be able to counteract the armor penetration and critical chance of LA, and the same should apply for MA.1 -
Armitas✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
Wearing Armor Master, you already sacrifice any benefits you might hope to gain over heavy armor by using Light. It's 5 item slots dedicated to bringing your mitigation on par with a heavy armor user, where as heavy armor user can slot something that helps his dmg/healing/grp utility.
Try tanking without Armor Master in LA/MA - you'll simply get killed through block because you lack mitigation & you lack the health/healing received passives from heavy armor.
As for your point about other content... You're correct, heavy armor is not required there. Is there a reason for wearing it though? Well yes, if you dont want to dodge roll around or spam shields (when you don't have a healer keeping you alive), but would rather base your survivability on mitigation. In that case, there's a perfect reason for running with heavy armor.
The only thing I can think of that I lose form not having heavy armor is health recovery, max health, and increased healing, but I gain back the recovery and healing through my magicka sustain for self healing, and I get my max health back through the armor master set. I get damage from crit and penetration through the light armor, and I don't know what you mean by something you slot from heavy armor that gives you damage, healing and group utility.
I don't lack mitigation. You can reach the mit cap in light armor.Edited by Armitas on April 30, 2016 4:32PMRetired.
Nord mDK0 -
Sugaroverdose✭✭✭✭✭
It seems like that galerion is fully reinforced which is not a case for pvp or for people who need to block a lot, while light sets have or infused or divines. So HA values what you presend are bigger for 16% than they should be.Sugaroverdose wrote: »
What about to say where you get this values and what traits used on both LA and HA? If i remember it right on live my magplar have something like 17.8k on offensive bar with 5xHeavy, 2xLight (heavy chest reinforced, light hat reinforced)
As a DK I don't see why I need heavy armor at all for PvE content now. I can couple bracing to a light armor Armor Master set, sit at mit cap, with tons of health, blocking like heavy armor, shielding like light armor, while liberally popping igneous shield, poisons and weapon glyphs for stamina. But even so, why should vMoL be the only reason to wear heavy armor in PvE content?SirSilverMask wrote: »Tell me with a straight face that this toon isnt strong for PvP
Tell me again, with a straight face, that these stats are bad for either tanking OR healing a vet dungeon or trial.
Tell me again, how 5HA is bad.
Holygoblin will disagree all day.
No where did I say that you could not successfully use HA, nor that it is bad. Just that it is not the optimal option given the average PvE circumstance. And given the stat of most dungeons now, you can tank or heal all dungeons wearing any type of armor.
However I would challenge you to tank vMoL with that setup in the PTS compared to Live, and you would see that HA actually has more problems now then before, so yes with a straight face I will say that your setup is not good for tanking vMoL (the only real dungeon that requires work from a tank now in good groups, I know that a few other trials do require some work from tanks as well, but none quite as intensive).
No, HA is not bad, however it is underpowered in the current state compared to other armors unless you think that 5% damage mitigation is better then an increase of 10-15% damage (depending on how charged up wrath is). Realize that damage mitigation from LA and MA is increased through dodge rolls and shields.
I would challenge you to tank vMoL in light or medium.
If you think people use heavy armor there because it's cheaper to block, you're sadly mistaken...
I think we can end the discussion right here.
Wearing Armor Master, you already sacrifice any benefits you might hope to gain over heavy armor by using Light. It's 5 item slots dedicated to bringing your mitigation on par with a heavy armor user, where as heavy armor user can slot something that helps his dmg/healing/grp utility.
Try tanking without Armor Master in LA/MA - you'll simply get killed through block because you lack mitigation & you lack the health/healing received passives from heavy armor.
As for your point about other content... You're correct, heavy armor is not required there. Is there a reason for wearing it though? Well yes, if you dont want to dodge roll around or spam shields (when you don't have a healer keeping you alive), but would rather base your survivability on mitigation. In that case, there's a perfect reason for running with heavy armor.SirSilverMask wrote: »SirSilverMask wrote: »Tell me with a straight face that this toon isnt strong for PvP
Tell me again, with a straight face, that these stats are bad for either tanking OR healing a vet dungeon or trial.
Tell me again, how 5HA is bad.
Holygoblin will disagree all day.
No where did I say that you could not successfully use HA, nor that it is bad. Just that it is not the optimal option given the average PvE circumstance. And given the stat of most dungeons now, you can tank or heal all dungeons wearing any type of armor.
However I would challenge you to tank vMoL with that setup in the PTS compared to Live, and you would see that HA actually has more problems now then before, so yes with a straight face I will say that your setup is not good for tanking vMoL (the only real dungeon that requires work from a tank now in good groups, I know that a few other trials do require some work from tanks as well, but none quite as intensive).
No, HA is not bad, however it is underpowered in the current state compared to other armors unless you think that 5% damage mitigation is better then an increase of 10-15% damage (depending on how charged up wrath is). Realize that damage mitigation from LA and MA is increased through dodge rolls and shields.
I would challenge you to tank vMoL in light or medium.
If you think people use heavy armor there because it's cheaper to block, you're sadly mistaken...
I think we can end the discussion right here.
Mitigation is mitigation, lol. Sad he doesnt get it.
Except that LA spell penetration decreases the effect by 7.4%, so the HA wearer actually has 2.4% less mitigation overall less protection then the LA wearer in the PvP case. Add to all this that if you want to reach armor cap in 5 piece LA, you can. Meaning that anything above armor cap actually doesn't increase your mitigation. So a major difference in live becomes the ability to sustain blocks.
Excuse me, but where do you come up with the assumption that Heavy Armor gives only 5% more mitigation than Light Armor?
With min-maxed setups (following is always true: heavy chest, light belt, medium helm)
Physical Resistance
21661 5 Heavy 1 Light 1 Medium
15912 5 Light 1 Heavy 1 Medium
A difference of 5749, or in other words 8.71% mitigation.
Spell Resistance
28703 5 Heavy 1 Light 1 Medium
24406 5 Light 1 Heavy 1 Medium
A difference of 4297, or in other words 6.51% mitigation.
Just for your amusement, lets compare 7 Heavy armor to 7 Light:
Spell Resistance
30183 7 Heavy
22792 7 Light
A difference of 7391, or in other words 11.2% mitigation
Physical Resistance
23504 7 Heavy
13572 7 Light
A difference of 9932, or in other words 15% mitigation.
This is all without even using Reinforced traits, which would only make the differences even bigger.
Can we please stop this nonsense where you write numbers, and I have to correct them?
The stats are from PTS template (Breton Templar, if that matters). I just literally logged on, equipped 7 heavy pieces of that new Galerion set (it has no physical & spell resistance bonuses) then I equipped 7 light pieces & compared.
I also did the same with 5/1/1 setups using the same set & same traits (Infused on large parts & divines on small ones).
All legendary quality btwEdited by Sugaroverdose on April 30, 2016 4:32PM0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭SirSilverMask wrote: »
As a DK I don't see why I need heavy armor at all for PvE content now. I can couple bracing to a light armor Armor Master set, sit at mit cap, with tons of health, blocking like heavy armor, shielding like light armor, while liberally popping igneous shield, poisons and weapon glyphs for stamina. But even so, why should vMoL be the only reason to wear heavy armor in PvE content?SirSilverMask wrote: »Tell me with a straight face that this toon isnt strong for PvP
Tell me again, with a straight face, that these stats are bad for either tanking OR healing a vet dungeon or trial.
Tell me again, how 5HA is bad.
Holygoblin will disagree all day.
No where did I say that you could not successfully use HA, nor that it is bad. Just that it is not the optimal option given the average PvE circumstance. And given the stat of most dungeons now, you can tank or heal all dungeons wearing any type of armor.
However I would challenge you to tank vMoL with that setup in the PTS compared to Live, and you would see that HA actually has more problems now then before, so yes with a straight face I will say that your setup is not good for tanking vMoL (the only real dungeon that requires work from a tank now in good groups, I know that a few other trials do require some work from tanks as well, but none quite as intensive).
No, HA is not bad, however it is underpowered in the current state compared to other armors unless you think that 5% damage mitigation is better then an increase of 10-15% damage (depending on how charged up wrath is). Realize that damage mitigation from LA and MA is increased through dodge rolls and shields.
I would challenge you to tank vMoL in light or medium.
If you think people use heavy armor there because it's cheaper to block, you're sadly mistaken...
I think we can end the discussion right here.
Wearing Armor Master, you already sacrifice any benefits you might hope to gain over heavy armor by using Light. It's 5 item slots dedicated to bringing your mitigation on par with a heavy armor user, where as heavy armor user can slot something that helps his dmg/healing/grp utility.
Try tanking without Armor Master in LA/MA - you'll simply get killed through block because you lack mitigation & you lack the health/healing received passives from heavy armor.
As for your point about other content... You're correct, heavy armor is not required there. Is there a reason for wearing it though? Well yes, if you dont want to dodge roll around or spam shields (when you don't have a healer keeping you alive), but would rather base your survivability on mitigation. In that case, there's a perfect reason for running with heavy armor.SirSilverMask wrote: »SirSilverMask wrote: »Tell me with a straight face that this toon isnt strong for PvP
Tell me again, with a straight face, that these stats are bad for either tanking OR healing a vet dungeon or trial.
Tell me again, how 5HA is bad.
Holygoblin will disagree all day.
No where did I say that you could not successfully use HA, nor that it is bad. Just that it is not the optimal option given the average PvE circumstance. And given the stat of most dungeons now, you can tank or heal all dungeons wearing any type of armor.
However I would challenge you to tank vMoL with that setup in the PTS compared to Live, and you would see that HA actually has more problems now then before, so yes with a straight face I will say that your setup is not good for tanking vMoL (the only real dungeon that requires work from a tank now in good groups, I know that a few other trials do require some work from tanks as well, but none quite as intensive).
No, HA is not bad, however it is underpowered in the current state compared to other armors unless you think that 5% damage mitigation is better then an increase of 10-15% damage (depending on how charged up wrath is). Realize that damage mitigation from LA and MA is increased through dodge rolls and shields.
I would challenge you to tank vMoL in light or medium.
If you think people use heavy armor there because it's cheaper to block, you're sadly mistaken...
I think we can end the discussion right here.
Mitigation is mitigation, lol. Sad he doesnt get it.
Except that LA spell penetration decreases the effect by 7.4%, so the HA wearer actually has 2.4% less mitigation overall less protection then the LA wearer in the PvP case. Add to all this that if you want to reach armor cap in 5 piece LA, you can. Meaning that anything above armor cap actually doesn't increase your mitigation. So a major difference in live becomes the ability to sustain blocks.
Excuse me, but where do you come up with the assumption that Heavy Armor gives only 5% more mitigation than Light Armor?
With min-maxed setups (following is always true: heavy chest, light belt, medium helm)
Physical Resistance
21661 5 Heavy 1 Light 1 Medium
15912 5 Light 1 Heavy 1 Medium
A difference of 5749, or in other words 8.71% mitigation.
Spell Resistance
28703 5 Heavy 1 Light 1 Medium
24406 5 Light 1 Heavy 1 Medium
A difference of 4297, or in other words 6.51% mitigation.
Just for your amusement, lets compare 7 Heavy armor to 7 Light:
Spell Resistance
30183 7 Heavy
22792 7 Light
A difference of 7391, or in other words 11.2% mitigation
Physical Resistance
23504 7 Heavy
13572 7 Light
A difference of 9932, or in other words 15% mitigation.
This is all without even using Reinforced traits, which would only make the differences even bigger.
Can we please stop this nonsense where you write numbers, and I have to correct them?
Again thank you for the addition, but please remember that you are not correcting anything, you are providing a different scenario. Not everyone has time to keep running dungeons and always have the helm and shoulders that they actually want, though that is changing a little with the sets being sold in cyrodiil. For those who truly min max characters in that way you are correct, and if you noticed I also noted that reinforced does change numbers.
Please remember that no where did I say that HA was "extremely underpowered," I just noted that it is slightly underpowered. Additionally, please remember that I think LA can do with a few tweaks to make it better match MA.
For HA, only a 5% increase in mitigation and 5% more resources from constitution would make it sync up better. For HA, someone noted earlier that a 2.5%/5% passive boost in mitigation would work, and I agree with that. It would be nice if that was added onto the final mitigation and could take the possible mitigation from 50 to 55% but only for people wearing 5 pieces of HA, so no matter what LA and MA wearers could never achieve the maximum possible mitigation which could be provided by HA wearers. Shields should not be able to counteract the armor penetration and critical chance of LA, and the same should apply for MA.
C'mon, why can't you just admit you were wrong? <.<
There's no shame in it.
I'm not saying the armor types are perfect and not improvable in any way, but saying that heavy armor is underpowered (even slightly) is a strech. It may be so for certain builds, but it sure as **** isn't the case with other builds.
Next patch I see as a huge step forward in terms of build diversity, since heavy armor stamina builds ("warrior" type builds with 2H weapons & high dmg/mitigation, not the ones that block 24/7) look like they could finally be a thing with the buffed Constitution passive and Wrath.
In fact, one change that would buff people who want to be extremely tanky (and who don't care about dealing damage as well) would be increasing the armor mitigation cap to somewhere around 66-75%.
That way, you could become incredibly tanky with the proper gear - but you'd have to make big sacrifices for it.0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Sugaroverdose wrote: »
It seems like that galerion is fully reinforced which is not a case for pvp or for people who need to block a lot, while light sets have or infused or divines. So HA values what you presend are bigger for 16% than they should be.Sugaroverdose wrote: »
What about to say where you get this values and what traits used on both LA and HA? If i remember it right on live my magplar have something like 17.8k on offensive bar with 5xHeavy, 2xLight (heavy chest reinforced, light hat reinforced)
As a DK I don't see why I need heavy armor at all for PvE content now. I can couple bracing to a light armor Armor Master set, sit at mit cap, with tons of health, blocking like heavy armor, shielding like light armor, while liberally popping igneous shield, poisons and weapon glyphs for stamina. But even so, why should vMoL be the only reason to wear heavy armor in PvE content?SirSilverMask wrote: »Tell me with a straight face that this toon isnt strong for PvP
Tell me again, with a straight face, that these stats are bad for either tanking OR healing a vet dungeon or trial.
Tell me again, how 5HA is bad.
Holygoblin will disagree all day.
No where did I say that you could not successfully use HA, nor that it is bad. Just that it is not the optimal option given the average PvE circumstance. And given the stat of most dungeons now, you can tank or heal all dungeons wearing any type of armor.
However I would challenge you to tank vMoL with that setup in the PTS compared to Live, and you would see that HA actually has more problems now then before, so yes with a straight face I will say that your setup is not good for tanking vMoL (the only real dungeon that requires work from a tank now in good groups, I know that a few other trials do require some work from tanks as well, but none quite as intensive).
No, HA is not bad, however it is underpowered in the current state compared to other armors unless you think that 5% damage mitigation is better then an increase of 10-15% damage (depending on how charged up wrath is). Realize that damage mitigation from LA and MA is increased through dodge rolls and shields.
I would challenge you to tank vMoL in light or medium.
If you think people use heavy armor there because it's cheaper to block, you're sadly mistaken...
I think we can end the discussion right here.
Wearing Armor Master, you already sacrifice any benefits you might hope to gain over heavy armor by using Light. It's 5 item slots dedicated to bringing your mitigation on par with a heavy armor user, where as heavy armor user can slot something that helps his dmg/healing/grp utility.
Try tanking without Armor Master in LA/MA - you'll simply get killed through block because you lack mitigation & you lack the health/healing received passives from heavy armor.
As for your point about other content... You're correct, heavy armor is not required there. Is there a reason for wearing it though? Well yes, if you dont want to dodge roll around or spam shields (when you don't have a healer keeping you alive), but would rather base your survivability on mitigation. In that case, there's a perfect reason for running with heavy armor.SirSilverMask wrote: »SirSilverMask wrote: »Tell me with a straight face that this toon isnt strong for PvP
Tell me again, with a straight face, that these stats are bad for either tanking OR healing a vet dungeon or trial.
Tell me again, how 5HA is bad.
Holygoblin will disagree all day.
No where did I say that you could not successfully use HA, nor that it is bad. Just that it is not the optimal option given the average PvE circumstance. And given the stat of most dungeons now, you can tank or heal all dungeons wearing any type of armor.
However I would challenge you to tank vMoL with that setup in the PTS compared to Live, and you would see that HA actually has more problems now then before, so yes with a straight face I will say that your setup is not good for tanking vMoL (the only real dungeon that requires work from a tank now in good groups, I know that a few other trials do require some work from tanks as well, but none quite as intensive).
No, HA is not bad, however it is underpowered in the current state compared to other armors unless you think that 5% damage mitigation is better then an increase of 10-15% damage (depending on how charged up wrath is). Realize that damage mitigation from LA and MA is increased through dodge rolls and shields.
I would challenge you to tank vMoL in light or medium.
If you think people use heavy armor there because it's cheaper to block, you're sadly mistaken...
I think we can end the discussion right here.
Mitigation is mitigation, lol. Sad he doesnt get it.
Except that LA spell penetration decreases the effect by 7.4%, so the HA wearer actually has 2.4% less mitigation overall less protection then the LA wearer in the PvP case. Add to all this that if you want to reach armor cap in 5 piece LA, you can. Meaning that anything above armor cap actually doesn't increase your mitigation. So a major difference in live becomes the ability to sustain blocks.
Excuse me, but where do you come up with the assumption that Heavy Armor gives only 5% more mitigation than Light Armor?
With min-maxed setups (following is always true: heavy chest, light belt, medium helm)
Physical Resistance
21661 5 Heavy 1 Light 1 Medium
15912 5 Light 1 Heavy 1 Medium
A difference of 5749, or in other words 8.71% mitigation.
Spell Resistance
28703 5 Heavy 1 Light 1 Medium
24406 5 Light 1 Heavy 1 Medium
A difference of 4297, or in other words 6.51% mitigation.
Just for your amusement, lets compare 7 Heavy armor to 7 Light:
Spell Resistance
30183 7 Heavy
22792 7 Light
A difference of 7391, or in other words 11.2% mitigation
Physical Resistance
23504 7 Heavy
13572 7 Light
A difference of 9932, or in other words 15% mitigation.
This is all without even using Reinforced traits, which would only make the differences even bigger.
Can we please stop this nonsense where you write numbers, and I have to correct them?
The stats are from PTS template (Breton Templar, if that matters). I just literally logged on, equipped 7 heavy pieces of that new Galerion set (it has no physical & spell resistance bonuses) then I equipped 7 light pieces & compared.
I also did the same with 5/1/1 setups using the same set & same traits (Infused on large parts & divines on small ones).
All legendary quality btw
Pretty much all the template sets are only in Divines/Infused, including Galerion - both Heavy & Light armor sets. Feel free to test it yourself on PTS, I've wasted enough time as is. In fact, I'd be curious as to how big the difference would be with reinforced traits (if you manage to find them somewhere).
Wearing Armor Master, you already sacrifice any benefits you might hope to gain over heavy armor by using Light. It's 5 item slots dedicated to bringing your mitigation on par with a heavy armor user, where as heavy armor user can slot something that helps his dmg/healing/grp utility.
Try tanking without Armor Master in LA/MA - you'll simply get killed through block because you lack mitigation & you lack the health/healing received passives from heavy armor.
As for your point about other content... You're correct, heavy armor is not required there. Is there a reason for wearing it though? Well yes, if you dont want to dodge roll around or spam shields (when you don't have a healer keeping you alive), but would rather base your survivability on mitigation. In that case, there's a perfect reason for running with heavy armor.
The only thing I can think of that I lose form not having heavy armor is health recovery, max health, and increased healing, but I gain back the recovery and healing through my magicka sustain for self healing, and I get my max health back through the armor master set. I get damage from crit and penetration through the light armor, and I don't know what you mean by something you slot from heavy armor that gives you damage, healing and group utility.
I don't lack mitigation. You can reach the mit cap in light armor.
Yes, you can reach mitigation cap - but you sacrifice a lot of damage/sustain in order to do so (you gain 0 from Armor Mastery set).
Is the damage/sustain you sacrifice by using a set like that worth using light armor over heavy (which doesn't sacrifice anything to reach those mitigation levels)? I don't think it is.
Just a crude example:
In terms of damage, you lose 1k magicka, 300 spell dmg (375 with Major+Minor Sorcery) & 6.4% crit if the other option instead of Armor Master was Julianos.
All that, just to get close to Heavy Armor levels of mitigation.
I'm not saying it's bad, I'm sure there are builds making good use of that.
and what I meant by group utility is sets like Lunar Bastion or Fassalas, which also benefit the people you play it (while still giving about the same mitigation as a light armor Armor Master set).Edited by DDuke on April 30, 2016 4:48PM0 -
@DDuke
If you think that armor can be improved please tell how you think it would need to be improved, that is really what I want this thread to focus on.
My idea in terms of numbers is for constitution to provide 9 more magicka and stamina per piece of armor equipped, and increase HA mitigation by 2.5%/5% to be able to go above the 50% cap (slightly different but along the same line of the idea you presented of increasing armor mitigation cap to 66-75%).
Also allow crit strikes to happen against shields, which is probably the easiest way to better balance PvE and PvP LA and MA wearers.0 -
Personofsecrets✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭DDuke doesn't want heavy armor improved.Don't tank
"In future content we will probably adjust this model somewhat (The BOP model). It's definitely nice to be able to find a cool item that you don't need and trade it to someone who can't wait to get their hands on it." - Wrobel1 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭SirSilverMask wrote: »@DDuke
If you think that armor can be improved please tell how you think it would need to be improved, that is really what I want this thread to focus on.
My idea in terms of numbers is for constitution to provide 9 more magicka and stamina per piece of armor equipped, and increase HA mitigation by 2.5%/5% to be able to go above the 50% cap (slightly different but along the same line of the idea you presented of increasing armor mitigation cap to 66-75%).
Also allow crit strikes to happen against shields, which is probably the easiest way to better balance PvE and PvP LA and MA wearers.
See, the problem is... if you simply add 2.5%/5% more mitigation to Heavy Armor as it stands, it also buffs the Heavy Armor builds which are already very strong - possibly most likely making them overpowered and FOTM for everyone to use.
The way it'd work with mitigation going up to 66-75% is that you'd have to make huge sacrifices to reach the highest levels of mitigation, but it'd be doable. You'd have a reason to use sets such as Pariah etc, and you'd be incentivized to get a ton of Spell/Physical Resistance bonuses on your gear. This would come at the cost of offense, thus balancing things.
With the amount of enrage mechanics & one shots in current high-end PvE, I don't think it'd be too unbalancing to do this either.
At the moment, I'm wearing only 5 Heavy (1 Light 1 Medium) & I'm already way over the soft cap when it comes to Spell Resistance as a Breton templar. While dual wielding, I might add.
This is with zero set bonuses towards physical/spell resistance and only 10 Champion Points (5%) in spell resistance.Edited by DDuke on April 30, 2016 4:58PM0 -
Sugaroverdose✭✭✭✭✭
Rechecked, yah my bad they also non-reinforced.Sugaroverdose wrote: »
It seems like that galerion is fully reinforced which is not a case for pvp or for people who need to block a lot, while light sets have or infused or divines. So HA values what you presend are bigger for 16% than they should be.Sugaroverdose wrote: »
What about to say where you get this values and what traits used on both LA and HA? If i remember it right on live my magplar have something like 17.8k on offensive bar with 5xHeavy, 2xLight (heavy chest reinforced, light hat reinforced)
As a DK I don't see why I need heavy armor at all for PvE content now. I can couple bracing to a light armor Armor Master set, sit at mit cap, with tons of health, blocking like heavy armor, shielding like light armor, while liberally popping igneous shield, poisons and weapon glyphs for stamina. But even so, why should vMoL be the only reason to wear heavy armor in PvE content?SirSilverMask wrote: »Tell me with a straight face that this toon isnt strong for PvP
Tell me again, with a straight face, that these stats are bad for either tanking OR healing a vet dungeon or trial.
Tell me again, how 5HA is bad.
Holygoblin will disagree all day.
No where did I say that you could not successfully use HA, nor that it is bad. Just that it is not the optimal option given the average PvE circumstance. And given the stat of most dungeons now, you can tank or heal all dungeons wearing any type of armor.
However I would challenge you to tank vMoL with that setup in the PTS compared to Live, and you would see that HA actually has more problems now then before, so yes with a straight face I will say that your setup is not good for tanking vMoL (the only real dungeon that requires work from a tank now in good groups, I know that a few other trials do require some work from tanks as well, but none quite as intensive).
No, HA is not bad, however it is underpowered in the current state compared to other armors unless you think that 5% damage mitigation is better then an increase of 10-15% damage (depending on how charged up wrath is). Realize that damage mitigation from LA and MA is increased through dodge rolls and shields.
I would challenge you to tank vMoL in light or medium.
If you think people use heavy armor there because it's cheaper to block, you're sadly mistaken...
I think we can end the discussion right here.
Wearing Armor Master, you already sacrifice any benefits you might hope to gain over heavy armor by using Light. It's 5 item slots dedicated to bringing your mitigation on par with a heavy armor user, where as heavy armor user can slot something that helps his dmg/healing/grp utility.
Try tanking without Armor Master in LA/MA - you'll simply get killed through block because you lack mitigation & you lack the health/healing received passives from heavy armor.
As for your point about other content... You're correct, heavy armor is not required there. Is there a reason for wearing it though? Well yes, if you dont want to dodge roll around or spam shields (when you don't have a healer keeping you alive), but would rather base your survivability on mitigation. In that case, there's a perfect reason for running with heavy armor.SirSilverMask wrote: »SirSilverMask wrote: »Tell me with a straight face that this toon isnt strong for PvP
Tell me again, with a straight face, that these stats are bad for either tanking OR healing a vet dungeon or trial.
Tell me again, how 5HA is bad.
Holygoblin will disagree all day.
No where did I say that you could not successfully use HA, nor that it is bad. Just that it is not the optimal option given the average PvE circumstance. And given the stat of most dungeons now, you can tank or heal all dungeons wearing any type of armor.
However I would challenge you to tank vMoL with that setup in the PTS compared to Live, and you would see that HA actually has more problems now then before, so yes with a straight face I will say that your setup is not good for tanking vMoL (the only real dungeon that requires work from a tank now in good groups, I know that a few other trials do require some work from tanks as well, but none quite as intensive).
No, HA is not bad, however it is underpowered in the current state compared to other armors unless you think that 5% damage mitigation is better then an increase of 10-15% damage (depending on how charged up wrath is). Realize that damage mitigation from LA and MA is increased through dodge rolls and shields.
I would challenge you to tank vMoL in light or medium.
If you think people use heavy armor there because it's cheaper to block, you're sadly mistaken...
I think we can end the discussion right here.
Mitigation is mitigation, lol. Sad he doesnt get it.
Except that LA spell penetration decreases the effect by 7.4%, so the HA wearer actually has 2.4% less mitigation overall less protection then the LA wearer in the PvP case. Add to all this that if you want to reach armor cap in 5 piece LA, you can. Meaning that anything above armor cap actually doesn't increase your mitigation. So a major difference in live becomes the ability to sustain blocks.
Excuse me, but where do you come up with the assumption that Heavy Armor gives only 5% more mitigation than Light Armor?
With min-maxed setups (following is always true: heavy chest, light belt, medium helm)
Physical Resistance
21661 5 Heavy 1 Light 1 Medium
15912 5 Light 1 Heavy 1 Medium
A difference of 5749, or in other words 8.71% mitigation.
Spell Resistance
28703 5 Heavy 1 Light 1 Medium
24406 5 Light 1 Heavy 1 Medium
A difference of 4297, or in other words 6.51% mitigation.
Just for your amusement, lets compare 7 Heavy armor to 7 Light:
Spell Resistance
30183 7 Heavy
22792 7 Light
A difference of 7391, or in other words 11.2% mitigation
Physical Resistance
23504 7 Heavy
13572 7 Light
A difference of 9932, or in other words 15% mitigation.
This is all without even using Reinforced traits, which would only make the differences even bigger.
Can we please stop this nonsense where you write numbers, and I have to correct them?
The stats are from PTS template (Breton Templar, if that matters). I just literally logged on, equipped 7 heavy pieces of that new Galerion set (it has no physical & spell resistance bonuses) then I equipped 7 light pieces & compared.
I also did the same with 5/1/1 setups using the same set & same traits (Infused on large parts & divines on small ones).
All legendary quality btw
Pretty much all the template sets are only in Divines/Infused, including Galerion - both Heavy & Light armor sets. Feel free to test it yourself on PTS, I've wasted enough time as is. In fact, I'd be curious as to how big the difference would be with reinforced traits (if you manage to find them somewhere).
Wearing Armor Master, you already sacrifice any benefits you might hope to gain over heavy armor by using Light. It's 5 item slots dedicated to bringing your mitigation on par with a heavy armor user, where as heavy armor user can slot something that helps his dmg/healing/grp utility.
Try tanking without Armor Master in LA/MA - you'll simply get killed through block because you lack mitigation & you lack the health/healing received passives from heavy armor.
As for your point about other content... You're correct, heavy armor is not required there. Is there a reason for wearing it though? Well yes, if you dont want to dodge roll around or spam shields (when you don't have a healer keeping you alive), but would rather base your survivability on mitigation. In that case, there's a perfect reason for running with heavy armor.
The only thing I can think of that I lose form not having heavy armor is health recovery, max health, and increased healing, but I gain back the recovery and healing through my magicka sustain for self healing, and I get my max health back through the armor master set. I get damage from crit and penetration through the light armor, and I don't know what you mean by something you slot from heavy armor that gives you damage, healing and group utility.
I don't lack mitigation. You can reach the mit cap in light armor.
Yes, you can reach mitigation cap - but you sacrifice a lot of damage/sustain in order to do so (you gain 0 from Armor Mastery set).
Is the damage/sustain you sacrifice by using a set like that worth using light armor over heavy (which doesn't sacrifice anything to reach those mitigation levels)? I don't think it is.
Just a crude example:
In terms of damage, you lose 1k magicka, 300 spell dmg (375 with Major+Minor Sorcery) & 6.4% crit if the other option instead of Armor Master was Julianos.
All that, just to get close to Heavy Armor levels of mitigation.
I'm not saying it's bad, I'm sure there are builds making good use of that.
and what I meant by group utility is sets like Lunar Bastion or Fassalas, which also benefit the people you play it (while still giving about the same mitigation as a light armor Armor Master set).
It's not he's request, it's mine which i said without any theorycraft(so it may be OP a little), i just thinking that HA in PVE and PVP must give advantage which is specific for 'knight'(lives a lot) like gameplay than changing it to something like 'berserk'(deals much damage than instantly dies while being focused)SirSilverMask wrote: »@DDuke
If you think that armor can be improved please tell how you think it would need to be improved, that is really what I want this thread to focus on.
My idea in terms of numbers is for constitution to provide 9 more magicka and stamina per piece of armor equipped, and increase HA mitigation by 2.5%/5% to be able to go above the 50% cap (slightly different but along the same line of the idea you presented of increasing armor mitigation cap to 66-75%).
Also allow crit strikes to happen against shields, which is probably the easiest way to better balance PvE and PvP LA and MA wearers.Edited by Sugaroverdose on April 30, 2016 4:59PM0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Personofsecrets wrote: »DDuke doesn't want heavy armor improved.
Why, I am happy it gets buffed via Constitution & Wrath. I made magicka templar work, now it's time to make my stamina heavy armor sorcerer warrior* work
See, I play multiple characters wearing heavy armor. In fact, 2/4 of my V16s wear heavy (Templar & Sorc), where as I have only 1 Light & 1 Medium user.
*Note to self: come up with a better name for this monstrosityEdited by DDuke on April 30, 2016 5:01PM0 -
SirSilverMask wrote: »@DDuke
If you think that armor can be improved please tell how you think it would need to be improved, that is really what I want this thread to focus on.
My idea in terms of numbers is for constitution to provide 9 more magicka and stamina per piece of armor equipped, and increase HA mitigation by 2.5%/5% to be able to go above the 50% cap (slightly different but along the same line of the idea you presented of increasing armor mitigation cap to 66-75%).
Also allow crit strikes to happen against shields, which is probably the easiest way to better balance PvE and PvP LA and MA wearers.
See, the problem is... if you simply add 2.5%/5% more mitigation to Heavy Armor as it stands, it also buffs the Heavy Armor builds which are already very strong - possibly most likely making them overpowered and FOTM for everyone to use.
The way it'd work with mitigation going up to 66-75% is that you'd have to make huge sacrifices to reach the highest levels of mitigation, but it'd be doable. You'd have a reason to use sets such as Pariah etc, and you'd be incentivized to get a ton of Spell/Physical Resistance bonuses on your gear. This would come at the cost of offense, thus balancing things.
You are focused on PvP here, and I am trying to find a way to make it work for both.
First off do you think that increasing constitution gain by 9 magicka and stamina per piece of armor every 4 seconds is overkill? Because that should put it better in line with LA and MA.
If they were to go the route of increasing mitigation cap, I think another effective trade on HA would be to allow HA to choose wrath 100/200 additional power or a bonus of 2.5/5% mitigation.
Lastly, do you think that allowing crit strikes on shields would better balance MA and LA builds in both PvE and PvP then the way it currently stands?0