Why don't you just make PvE skillset separate from PvP?

Magdalina

A lot, if not most, of DB balance changes are clearly PvP oriented(which is amusing considering actual PvP content is getting neglected time and again but whatever, I suppose it's good at least something is being done there). "Nerf"(...which for some will be a buff) to shield stacking(because obviously that's a big issue in PvE), possibly giving heavy armor extra damage instead of block cost reduction(very useful for PvE tanks) etc etc...it's argueable whether or not those changes profit PvP community but there's absolutely no reason for them in PvE. And yes I'm mostly speaking as a magicka sorc whose best PvE skill is now worse than a non-class skill and who got nothing in return. Either way though, that's not even the point. Point is, why exactly don't you just give PvE and PvP a separate skillset, @ZOS?

I understand why you wouldn't do this before. Clearly you had open world PvP plans such as PvP Justice system etc but you scrapped those(...unfortunately). There's no reason not to do this now. You'll always have to keep tweaking skills for PvP balance and a lot of the time it's just going to whack PvE wildly out of balance for no reason at all. This idea has been mentioned so many times, I honestly don't see why you aren't at least working on making this a thing(are you?) now that open world PvP is out of the question.

phaneub17_ESO

I wondered that too, if shouldn't be too hard to make abilities function differently when in places like Cyrodiil or any future PvP zones. The rest of the game is strictly PvE, there's no possible way for any of the factions to confront each other outside of Cyrodiil.

magnusthorek

Not a separate skillset but skill definitions that works differently in PvE and in PvP. Like the shields case, for example: Let it be 20 seconds in PvE, as there are not PC controlled enemies crying about them, and cut it to 6s in PvP where there are most.

kongkim

Its one big game and not two different games. They just need to keep working on balance as it will never stop or be perfect. Just like any one ther game out there.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Magdalina wrote: »

why exactly don't you just give PvE and PvP a separate skillset, @ZOS?

Because their original plan was oriented towards PvPvE, a mix of the two.

Since they're increasingly giving up on that (gave up on PvP justice system, and a few other indicators) I wouldn't be surprised to see separate skill lines appear sooner or later.

And with the removal of vet ranks + shared CP, it will be easy for people to have separate charachters for PvP and PvE (min/maxers have them already).

Magdalina

kongkim wrote: »

Its one big game and not two different games. They just need to keep working on balance as it will never stop or be perfect. Just like any one ther game out there.

It's actually my first MMO so I can't say much about this, but don't some other MMOs have separate skillsets for PvE and PvP? At least that's what people seem to have been saying in posts on this topic I think.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

why exactly don't you just give PvE and PvP a separate skillset, @ZOS?

Because their original plan was oriented towards PvPvE, a mix of the two.

Since they're increasingly giving up on that (gave up on PvP justice system, and a few other indicators) I wouldn't be surprised to see separate skill lines appear sooner or later.

And with the removal of vet ranks + shared CP, it will be easy for people to have separate charachters for PvP and PvE (min/maxers have them already).

Which is basically what I'm saying...they gave up on open world PvP so it's frankly surprisingly to see DRASTIC changes to some skills in DB patch notes made purely accordance to PvP which are going to whack PvE out of balance a whole lot.

Mush55

kongkim wrote: »

Its one big game and not two different games. They just need to keep working on balance as it will never stop or be perfect. Just like any one ther game out there.

Ye and I dont play the pvp part of it, and every pvp nerf messes up the pve part.

Cernow

kongkim wrote: »

Its one big game and not two different games. They just need to keep working on balance as it will never stop or be perfect. Just like any one ther game out there.

It might be "one big game" but the balance requirements for PVE are very different than for PvP. It's as true in ESO as any other MMO. The difference is that many other MMOs have realised the difference and implemented measures to address this, whether this be separate skill and ability sets or making certain abilities work differently in each environment.

Champion Points is a good example of this lack of understanding of the different requirements of PVE and PvP. The CP system is a shockingly blinkered bit of game development. It's boggles the mind that the devs thought they could implement an open-ended vertical PVE power up system and not have it massively affect PvP balance. What did they think was going to happen? Hence the mess of CP caps, CP-free campaigns, VR removal and C-based gear etc etc.

clayandaudrey_ESO

Which games do this? Just curious.

idk

Cernow wrote: »

kongkim wrote: »

Its one big game and not two different games. They just need to keep working on balance as it will never stop or be perfect. Just like any one ther game out there.

It might be "one big game" but the balance requirements for PVE are very different than for PvP. It's as true in ESO as any other MMO. The difference is that many other MMOs have realised the difference and implemented measures to address this, whether this be separate skill and ability sets or making certain abilities work differently in each environment.

Champion Points is a good example of this lack of understanding of the different requirements of PVE and PvP. The CP system is a shockingly blinkered bit of game development. It's boggles the mind that the devs thought they could implement an open-ended vertical PVE power up system and not have it massively affect PvP balance. What did they think was going to happen? Hence the mess of CP caps, CP-free campaigns, VR removal and C-based gear etc etc.

CP system isn't open ended. There is a cap. Currently 501 points At that, they had said they would incresse the cap by 50/quarter but looks like their going slower than that.

Open ends, I think not with how's it's being managed.

Katahdin

Because two seperate skill sets/descriptions would be too confusing for most of the playerbase and less people would be willing to give pvp a try if the skills were different.

tinythinker

Katahdin wrote: »

Because two seperate skill sets/descriptions would be too confusing for most of the playerbase and less people would be willing to give pvp a try if the skills were different.

yeah this came up at one point a long time ago, can't direct people to where it came up (forums, ESO Live, dev video?), but that was an issue.

Necrelios

Stamina and its morphs is the PvP skillset. Stamina = PvP. Magicka = PvE. They've made that pretty clear by now with the upcoming changes.

NewBlacksmurf

Makes sense but for now
All morphs should also allow choice of stamina or magic (where it makes sense) not 100% all

bloodenragedb14_ESO

they wont do it because it fixes the problem, since zos seems to only be intrested in band-aid fixes, well news flash, a band-aid isnt going to do *** to fix a broken leg

QuebraRegra

phaneub17_ESO wrote: »

I wondered that too, if shouldn't be too hard to make abilities function differently when in places like Cyrodiil or any future PvP zones. The rest of the game is strictly PvE, there's no possible way for any of the factions to confront each other outside of Cyrodiil.

It's already done in some ways, look at skills where the tooltip specifically states "2 second immobilize against players"., versus a stun in PVE. Just needs to be expanded on?

bloodenragedb14_ESO

I would honestly take a fix that takes months or even a year to implement, than the band-aid not-really-fixes that seem to go with every update

Nestor

Most every change to my skills that take away what I can do is for "PvP Balance". Its getting tiring. I have to relearn how to achieve the same DPS and survive-ability as I had before just because of PvP.

People speak like it would be this huge undertaking to introduce separate skills for PvP than for PvE. Why? ZOS has already thrown out or completely overhauled skills several times since this game launched. All skills are is a trigger to do a math equation to come up with a Damage number or a Heal number or a Mitigation number and apply it to a target, they are not trying to land an orbiter on the moon. We know skills can be redone, so why can't they make skills just for PvP?

Once done, they can tweak and re-balance PvP to their hearts content. It could also introduce a whole new chapter in build diversity.

NewBlacksmurf

Nestor wrote: »

Most every change to my skills that take away what I can do is for "PvP Balance". Its getting tiring. I have to relearn how to achieve the same DPS and survive-ability as I had before just because of PvP.

People speak like it would be this huge undertaking to introduce separate skills for PvP than for PvE. Why? ZOS has already thrown out or completely overhauled skills several times since this game launched. All skills are is a trigger to do a math equation to come up with a Damage number or a Heal number or a Mitigation number and apply it to a target, they are not trying to land an orbiter on the moon. We know skills can be redone, so why can't they make skills just for PvP?

Once done, they can tweak and re-balance PvP to their hearts content. It could also introduce a whole new chapter in build diversity.

Ya know. They don't even have to do new skills.
They just need the same skills to have different affects in PvE and PvP. Literally use the same animations and stuff.

I think I had a thread on this....

failkiwib16_ESO

I long for a separation of skills. I enjoy both pve and pvp, but these nerfs annoy me at every major patch

greylox

Same skills, different stats for PvE/PvP. Shields for instance are already lower in pvp so just adjust values to keep shields as they were for pve.

Nebthet78

If they can't put in two different skillsets for PVE and PVP then they need to reintroduce the softcaps back to PVP.

I am sick and tired of all the nerfs to our PCs and NPCs in PVE due the "balance" issues in PVP. I used to love tanking for my guild, but now with all the crappy changes that have been made, not only do I not longer run the daily dungeons any more, I no longer run trials with my guild because my playstyle keeps getting continuosly nerfed into the ground and I am tired of having to recraft my stuff to make up for the changes.

And what's the point of having the CP system if we can't continue to improve our characters? No CP cap increase for DB in addition to skill/passive nerfs and increased costs to CC, Dodge, Block etc, that have to once again, be compensated for in the CP system. I wish it was never instituted!!

Lightninvash

phaneub17_ESO wrote: »

I wondered that too, if shouldn't be too hard to make abilities function differently when in places like Cyrodiil or any future PvP zones. The rest of the game is strictly PvE, there's no possible way for any of the factions to confront each other outside of Cyrodiil.

I have seen this in other games the skill will say does x then as a side note says does x if the target is a player. Basically it takes a skill that is moderately OP in pve and makes it balanced for pvp. An example it was a magic attack that dealt physical dmg. if you used a certain skill before hand it would place a debuff on the enemy to take more damage if npc it was 500% bonus damage(kinda op) and against players was 125% bonus damage(more balanced for pvp.)

something like this would work.

failkiwib16_ESO

@Lightninvash that is a really good idea tbh.

We already give full damage to enemy NPCs in Cyrodiil and Imperial City, and less damage to players + we have armor sets that benefits only pve (Roar of Alkosh) or pvp (Vicious Death)..

imenace

they make balance changes towards pvp because pve is pve, so damn easy it doesnt matter what you run.

Pirhana7_ESO

Because this was always planned and built as a mixed PVp and PVE game where you need to do both to maximize your self. Cyrodiil is not just a pvp zone, it is labbled as a mixed PVP / PVE zone. this is also for those who enjoy PVE with PVP happening.

I dont understand why everyone wants to seperate them, an enemy is an enemy regarless of if AI or a player is controllig it. Its also a seige warfare area that has a purpose....

You came to game that was created for both mixed. if you want them seperated there are better game choices like GW2 that seperates them

Bofrari

Yeah I could care less about most of the changes on the PvP side shields actually only last 4-6 in pvp but pve is different plus the block nerf it dumb for pve side PvP maybe not they need to seperate the two the fact is I don't think they know how or simply are too lazy the team that designs all of this has went way down hill they have done dug themselves a hole so deep that have to look up to see the Buttom.

babylon

imenace wrote: »

they make balance changes towards pvp because pve is pve, so damn easy it doesnt matter what you run.

Spot the guy who only ever grinds mobs lower than he is in big grind groups.

Destyran

I have asked for this quite a bit when i do it the community is horrible to me. But its right there battle spirit tack pvp based skill changes to battle spirit problem solved

Nacacia

City of Heroes used to have one power function differently against PVE mobs and PVP players... values would be different and in some cases the effects would apply differently to one or the other... seems like every modern MMO should be designed like this to avoid having to nerf PVE for the sake of PVP.

City of Heroes wasn't really known for PVP but at least they had a good workable power system to handle both sides separately.

susmitds

People who think shields were nerfed for only PvP is quite wrong. It was also done to narrow the gap between sorcerers and other classes in PvE leaderboards.