Dark Brotherhood Combat Changes

Sallington

Zheg wrote: »

As a whole, the combat changes in this patch are a great improvement over the balance (or lack there of) in the TG patch. I have some initial concerns over bone shield - largely that shields were a magicka build's defense, and now medium armor folks have shuffle, insane capacity to dodge roll (with well fitted scaling with both the MA passive AND CP stars), plus the same shield capacity as a magicka build. I think unbreakable negates (that can damage/heal) are a little overtuned as well, but nothing as blatantly broken like the bombard spam and rapids nerf you gave us in TG.

With that said, you're still not hitting the mark when it comes to class changes. The usual suspects are getting stronger and the red-headed stepchild keeps getting significant nerfs disguised as buffs. I'd also point out that the large skill cost increase via vet level removal only furthers class imbalances when it comes to resource management. Do you think a NB cares if funnel health is 16% more expensive when the base cost is negligible? Probably not, and probably even less so since they have siphon attacks. Do you think a templar cares about the cost increase when BoL is already one of the most expensive skills in the game? This templar cared enough to write off ever trying out heavy armor when healing.

There are many mistakes and broken skills that still need to be remedied when it comes to class balance. On paper, this patch seems like it will be far more successful for you than last one, but you still have a lot of work to do. As an example, you gave templars a new morph of Eclipse that is made substantially worse by one of the passives in the skill line. Just because players have endured and gotten tired of complaining about issues, it doesn't mean it's ok for the issues to never be addressed. There is some really bad class specific feedback on these forums, but there is also some really insightful feedback. You should be able to tell the difference. Please do leverage the good feedback, because some of your goals for classes still do not seem to line up with the reality of how players actually use those classes. I could rant on and on about templar issues, but I wouldn't want to detract from the many issues that stamina sorcs face, or the remaining issues DKs have. Why can't all classes be in as a good a balance position as NBs ?

Don't tell anyone, but I bought 5/5 well-fitted shield breaker set for <12k the day they dropped patch notes. I'm about to double the world's salt supply.

Joy_Division

Sallington wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

As a whole, the combat changes in this patch are a great improvement over the balance (or lack there of) in the TG patch. I have some initial concerns over bone shield - largely that shields were a magicka build's defense, and now medium armor folks have shuffle, insane capacity to dodge roll (with well fitted scaling with both the MA passive AND CP stars), plus the same shield capacity as a magicka build. I think unbreakable negates (that can damage/heal) are a little overtuned as well, but nothing as blatantly broken like the bombard spam and rapids nerf you gave us in TG.

With that said, you're still not hitting the mark when it comes to class changes. The usual suspects are getting stronger and the red-headed stepchild keeps getting significant nerfs disguised as buffs. I'd also point out that the large skill cost increase via vet level removal only furthers class imbalances when it comes to resource management. Do you think a NB cares if funnel health is 16% more expensive when the base cost is negligible? Probably not, and probably even less so since they have siphon attacks. Do you think a templar cares about the cost increase when BoL is already one of the most expensive skills in the game? This templar cared enough to write off ever trying out heavy armor when healing.

There are many mistakes and broken skills that still need to be remedied when it comes to class balance. On paper, this patch seems like it will be far more successful for you than last one, but you still have a lot of work to do. As an example, you gave templars a new morph of Eclipse that is made substantially worse by one of the passives in the skill line. Just because players have endured and gotten tired of complaining about issues, it doesn't mean it's ok for the issues to never be addressed. There is some really bad class specific feedback on these forums, but there is also some really insightful feedback. You should be able to tell the difference. Please do leverage the good feedback, because some of your goals for classes still do not seem to line up with the reality of how players actually use those classes. I could rant on and on about templar issues, but I wouldn't want to detract from the many issues that stamina sorcs face, or the remaining issues DKs have. Why can't all classes be in as a good a balance position as NBs ?

Don't tell anyone, but I bought 5/5 well-fitted shield breaker set for <12k the day they dropped patch notes. I'm about to double the world's salt supply.

You aren't alone

Shadowfx1970

I like the changes so far, great job. I like tweaking and adjusting builds and now there can be even more variety.

eserras7b16_ESO

That's all great, specialy the idea behind the changes is in the correct line.
I think that you should look upon item drops and traits even more: some items are clearly useless with a certain trait on them (a staff with more physical damage would be the case, or a dagger with spell penetration) also, many times 2 traits are good but one is just always better than the other. Giving variety is good but not that much. If the best DPS u can get out of a Maelstrom dagger is a powered dagger, people won't be happy to get the precise one!

PainfulFAFA

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Tyrannitar wrote: »

Reposting for visibility from sorc feedback thread:

Firstly, if you're a dev and you're reading this: thank you for the work you put in. It's not gone unnoticed. This game is amazing and I've loved it since the day it dropped. Hell, before that even! There's only one aspect of this patch that really bothers me, and judging by the wall of text that follows, I hope you can see how important this is to me.

For a game that focuses so heavily on build viability and diversity, it's kind of saddening that stamina sorcs got nerfed again.
I've run a khajiit stamina-sorc for literally years now, and I'll break it down to the devs why this PTS patch sorely nerfs one of the lowest end-game dps classes.

The thundering presence morph is great. It really is. BUT: it doesn't proc crit surge, it's an aoe that scales off of weapon damage and stamina now, which is nice, but when your main heal is derivitive of spike damage only (this needs to change as I can't even run rapid strikes on dw because of it), and saps us of major expidition, you can see why it's kind of a nerf... in a pvp setting at the very least.

Nerf in the sense that that "buff" was a trade-off for this class. We didn't get anything to compensate for a morph most of us won't use. After the wrecking blow nerf, we now also have to choose between the ONLY hard stamina cc we have available, or not coming in last place for any dps race... which we're still liable to do. I'm in the guild that completed vet maw, and pretty much every specialization besides stam sorc is able to push 28-32k dps. Sustained. I simply can't maintain/ compete with that even as is.

I don't even have empower available on any of my skills. Major Brutality galore! It's a shame though, because those don't stack. WB is still currently the only skill available that grants empower, which is still currently the only reason I can compete in any endgame content...

A possible solution I see to this issue is something that I feel is too commonly shrugged off.

Stam-poison-weapon-damage-scaling-crystal-frags-morph that grants empower when it's proc'd. Make it close-range only, and mimic the old wrecking blow...

Keep the CC, allow empower to only proc when the insta-cast is available. (Allow the insta-cast to proc off of stamina based skills). Or alternatively some kind of scaling where both morphs were based off of your higher stat... Like an overload scaling... Speaking of which, overload should do poison or physical damage for a stam sorc. Having to split CP in awkward ways to sustain end game dps #s is an eternal struggle for me in the current state.

It'd give us a good dps spike and CC in pvp, and it wouldn't cripple us in PVE. It wouldn't be spammable in pvp, either. Without a stamina CC, stam sorcs will be forced to choose between CC ing or having our main dps boon/ heal active. Even then, one bolt escape every 10 seconds won't change the tide of any fight. It'll force me to run magicka regen drinks.... which take a cut into my dps yet again...

The thundering presence morph, bound armaments, and crit surge stam morphs are all great, don't get me wrong, but we're the only class without a single target dps stam morph.

Read that again. The *only* class without a single target dps stam morph.

Not that it's necessarily viable to do so for their dps, but literally any other class could wb->stam jav/ jabs, or wb-> suprise attack, or wb-> stam whip/ unstable flames. Sorcs only have one option as is: wb-> wb
Or a heavy attack-> wb weave.

Point being, stam-sorcs just took a HUGE dps loss, and migrated some of our remaining dps into an area that won't proc our heals... We're going to be the jokes of DB, (esp. in IC and pvp settings ) and for such a fun playstyle... and being that it's my only main, I'm not even sure I'll be able to compete endgame content anymore. It's very disappointing and I'm not certain I'd continue to play if the natch potes don't get a little bit reworked for stam sorcs at the very least...


Hell, make the stam frags a copy cat of the old wb as far as scaling and functionality go! 1 second cast, knockback, empower, close range

I'm not sure how you guys will go about this, but I NEED to be able to run trials on my main...

Every class got stamina spec buffs.... Why don't stam sorcs ever get any love? We're build diversity personified! Whatever happened to the sword-wielding casters of elderscrolls past? Plz rework wb... Give me a stam curse/ frags combo or *something* for pvp.

I love this game and really don't want to get left behind in buffs/ take unintended nerfs. Thank you for your time and I hope I didn't sound disrespectful. I really appreciate the work you guys do.

ZOS and stam sorcs is a touchy subject.

Make stam sorcs great!
Replace Crystal blast
Reinvent Storm Atronach
Redo Hurricane!
Give us nice passives we can work with!

NACtron

I appreciate the PvP developers taking the time to explain the philosophy behind certain changes. I wish they would do this more often. I'm willing to bet we don't give the Devs enough credit for the time and effort they put into the changes they make even if they aren't always perfect. I bet if they did this more often the overall animosity towards the Devs in the community would lower quite a bit.

driosketch

If you are going to gut the anti undead ect. theme of FG to make it a true stamina line, fine, but don't half way it. Rename or replace the skills entirely, e.g. Dawnbreaker becomes Mighty Strike or something. Make it level off regular kills.

Than salvage the anti vampire/werewolf/deadra/undead stuff and make a temple order guild line like Resolutes of Stendarr, Knights of the Eight, Dawn guard, Order of Meridia, or whatever. Not even asking for a brand-new quest line, a quick join up that mirrors the Vampire/Werewolf quests would be enough.

altemriel

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

I like the changes of course I play a stamina based nightblade so dont think we got any nerfs at all. They killed wrecking blow but honestly i had stopped depending on it and went into dual wield. I find dual wield to be far superior to one hander.

oh, ***, really!!!

ZOS, WHY YOU NERFED MY STAMDRAGONKNIGHT AGAIN????!!!!

altemriel

I hate this company

Rylana

Joy_Division wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

Feynn wrote: »

Wrobel wrote: »

If you spend 6 seconds trying to finish off someone and get a kill, your shields will drop and you’ll be vulnerable to a counter attack. This change allows damage shields to be strong, lets you continue stacking shields if you wish, but is much more challenging to play offensively at the same time.

I really get the impression that you are considering this only from a PvP point of view. I dont' know whether you are a PvPer yourself and I understand that many PvPers consider PvE as "easy mode", but please please please, keep PvEers in mind as well. So people have been complaining about Sorcerers stacking shields in PvP? Then make shields unstackable (at least in Cyrodiil), but don't take a sledgehammer to a class-defining ability. Besides, you are not giving Sorcerers anything in return for this huge nerf. You made Negate viable again maybe, sure. But what's the point? Sorcerers need to keep their ultimate for Overload anyway, since that's the only viable way they have of contributing to DPS. Please take a moment to get out of the PvP mindset and consider PvEers as well.

Only viable way? really mate? There aint a damn piece of content in this game that requires anything more than 15k DPS from any individual damage dealer. I can get that JUST by hard casting frags and weaving in velocious curses.

If by "viable" you mean "must meet some arbitrary minimum contrived number someone decided was pro, but is totally overkill and unnecessary" then sure, sorc doesnt have many options. But for realistic achievement and completion? (15 minute vCoA run, for example) 15k DPS on both damage roles is more than enough.

It won't make sorcs unviable in PvE(...if nothing else then because PvE is so damn easy and they're nerfing it moar with DB, but whatever), you're right there.

But it will take away the one unique great thing we had going for us in PvE. Shields are great in PvE. They let you keep dps-ing without ever needing heals, allowing your healer to go full dps and tank not worry about an ad that ran loose. They let you stay alive when a boss bugs out, ignores taunt and comes to give you a pat of love. They let you stand in red and res safely(yes, some people still die...it happens ). They let you underman/solo stuff with ease, or carry bad groups through. It lets you focus on dps(which is already rather mediocre compared to other classes) rather than avoiding damage. We have no good group utility, no reliable selfheals(Surge is great...when the heal procs. When it doesn't, you die. That's not what I call "reliable"), no spammable dps skill, no group heals that don't depend on a pet with 10k health(babysitting her with 20 second Ward is alright, babysitting her with 6 second Ward is just ridiculous)...

Will we still be able to compete content as a sorc? Oh yeah sure. But why would you want to if virtually any other class can do it better(=faster, more efficiently and with providing better utility to their group) in any role?

Thing about shields is though, they can be anim canceled. They are pretty cheap, especially harness in PvE (most crap thrown at you is magicka based bar the occasional WB or Snipe spamming npc.... sounds like PvP a bit here...) and that just keeps that sustain going, Hardened and healing ward arent even essentials.

Like dont get me wrong, I am a hardcore PvPer, I only PvE when I need something (undaunted, a drop, some XP, a skillpoint from an undone vet dungeon quest, etc). I may not be a paragon of knowledge of all things Dungeon, but what I do know, is the few times a month I run dungeons, I barely ever have to cast my shields except v bosses and only if healer sucks. Otherwise its just DPS spam and dont stand in stupid (usually overload/curse/procfrag/entropy shenanigans). I really dont see how a six second shield is honestly going to hurt PvE at all. All dem dere pro 30k DPS sorcs just throw hardened ward on their overload bar, hit it in between overloads, no real DPS loss.

Someone hasn't given vMA a try yet ...

That would be assuming I even have that DLC in the first place.

It would also assume I PvE enough to want to spend 8 hours in a solo dragonstar like environment

It would also assume magicka sorcs werent the original FOTM to beat that content either.

But I digress.

Ghost-Shot

Rylana wrote: »

Feynn wrote: »

Wrobel wrote: »

If you spend 6 seconds trying to finish off someone and get a kill, your shields will drop and you’ll be vulnerable to a counter attack. This change allows damage shields to be strong, lets you continue stacking shields if you wish, but is much more challenging to play offensively at the same time.

I really get the impression that you are considering this only from a PvP point of view. I dont' know whether you are a PvPer yourself and I understand that many PvPers consider PvE as "easy mode", but please please please, keep PvEers in mind as well. So people have been complaining about Sorcerers stacking shields in PvP? Then make shields unstackable (at least in Cyrodiil), but don't take a sledgehammer to a class-defining ability. Besides, you are not giving Sorcerers anything in return for this huge nerf. You made Negate viable again maybe, sure. But what's the point? Sorcerers need to keep their ultimate for Overload anyway, since that's the only viable way they have of contributing to DPS. Please take a moment to get out of the PvP mindset and consider PvEers as well.

Only viable way? really mate? There aint a damn piece of content in this game that requires anything more than 15k DPS from any individual damage dealer. I can get that JUST by hard casting frags and weaving in velocious curses.

If by "viable" you mean "must meet some arbitrary minimum contrived number someone decided was pro, but is totally overkill and unnecessary" then sure, sorc doesnt have many options. But for realistic achievement and completion? (15 minute vCoA run, for example) 15k DPS on both damage roles is more than enough.

Look if you can't hit the 40k single target mark, we just will not be able to complete the Wayrest pledge, its simple math...

Frawr

@Wrobel

My responses below to your post:

Heavy Armor
Your paragraph on heavy armour literally just said 'we want you to be able to do basically the same thing in whichever armour you want to wear. That is sadly - homogenisation - and makes the game that little bit more bland and boring.

I want to put on heavy armour (its made of metal!) and soak up damage. I don't need to put on heavy armour and be very slightly more tanky than medium or light armour - its pointless.

Armour, specifically, should be really different in heavy, medium or light. making them feel really different would actually provide more interesting and diverse gameplay.

Your current changes make it less diverse and more bland.

They also, as others have said, make the armour worse because you now lose resources so much faster when tanking multiple enemies (pve or pvp). Thus, we might as well wear medium Armour Master gear instead of any heavy armour.

I would much rather see heavy armour being able to soak up tonnes of damage.

Charges
Awesome, great job that you're fixing this. Thanks

As an aside, it would be great if you could make Silver Leash and Chains useful again.

i.e.,
- give them a separate cc immunity (immune to repeated pulling) so that they don't trigger the global CC immunity.
- allow us to pull people up and down off keep walls again. I appreciate that this was put in to stop people cheating their way to emperor, however, I find this too niche an issue for the trade-off of the skills being rubbish. I would much rather be able to pull people off walls because it is really really cool!
-
Damage Shields
6 seconds on all damage shields could be nice. it balances strong defence with a requirement to monitor it more actively. Higher skilled players are unlikely to be affected. Newbs likely to be melted.

As for Harness absorbing all damage, the jury is out. Feels rather like homogenisation.

Vampire
Interesting changes. I guess that this is geared more toward the solo-y ES rpg players rather than the MMO aspects overall.
Nice changes to mist form. dot heal is cool on paper but probably useless/situational at best (and therefore, not the heal of choice) in the burst dps PVP world.

Fighters Guild
Fighter's guild is about killing deadra and undead so I am not sure how I feel about having them affect everyone. This feels a rather like homogenisation.

Improved Item Traits
Some nice traits created. Good job. I hope that you make them drop equally, as opposed to the current meta of '50% well-fitted'.

bowmanz607

@Wrobel what about adding like 10% crit resistance to heavy armor. this would make them more tanky without going over the top.

Mysticman

Wrobel wrote: »

Damage Shields
Ultimately, we want to see you commit to being either offensive or defensive when using damage shields, instead of both simultaneously. Decreasing the duration of all damage shields to 6 seconds means that they are just as powerful for stopping high amounts of burst damage. However, there is now less safety with the decreased duration and more skill is required to activate damage shields at the correct time. If you spend 6 seconds trying to finish off someone and get a kill, your shields will drop and you’ll be vulnerable to a counter attack. This change allows damage shields to be strong, lets you continue stacking shields if you wish, but is much more challenging to play offensively at the same time. .

So what you're saying is that you're nerfing the hell out of shields because of the constantly whining by PVP players about shield stacking in PVP and PVE players are also getting their shields rendered useless because of that. I don't understand the logic of that this way of thinking this a "Elder Scrolls" games this is a online RPG game that means PVE PVE and more PVE, PVP is just a very small part of this game that's preferred by very small part of the population so why are you treating ESO as if it revolves around PVP and that change in the game should to be based on what whining PvP players want. Any company that that caters to a small percentage of their customers at the expense of the majority of their customers will not be in business for very long. If you want to stop players from stacking shelves then you should just make shields unstackable instead of nerfing shields so badly that they are now not worth having on your bar.

Also would you like to explain your reasoning behind having everyone suffer a cost increase for abilities on the PTS of between 5-15%. This is contrary to the patch notes claiming that most abilities will cost the same. In fact you need around 40% cost reduction for abilities on the PTS to be the same as on Live.

condumitru

Great post, in laying out your team's ideas with respect to combat balance for this patch implementation. I think this is the level of communication ppl are happy with. At the same time ppl should understand that these ideas are the starting point, as designed by the team and should be taken into account when pondering further changes.

100% behind what was said for charges, shields, vamp, FG and traits. I think this will be a great patch for the game (we'll see about poisons balance with cyro groups).
Heavy Armor might still need some iterations but it's an ongoing process like in many mmos.

Minalan

@Wrobel

Shield Change: 6 seconds is too short. It doesn't require skill or strategy to mash the same button every five seconds. It's mind numbing and tedious. I've sat through lag spikes longer than the new shields last.

You are wrecking PVE. As usual the Cyrodiil mini game is allowed to ruin 90% of the rest. How is a sorc supposed to pick an intermediate lock while fire-caged in veteran wgt? How is a sorc supposed to res a healer that gets cursed and nuked by adds before he can get to the purge panel in vet maw? How is a pet build supposed to survive now, when most of them don't have the bar slots for Magicka increasing abilities, and they certainly don't have the sustain. Six. Seconds. Is. Too. Short. For. PVE.

Harness Magicka: What were you thinking when you made Harness Magicka better in every way than Hardened Ward? They're the same duration, about the same size, they both proc frags, Harness Magicka can be used while hidden where Hardened Ward reveals you, and Harness Magicka is a great source of regen. Why would a sorc use their class skill when the other is better, except to stack them?

Why would you give every light armor user a physical shield, when most have their own defensive mechanics? Why didn't you put say, a three second reflect on it instead, or a combat cloak?

I'm glad you buffed stamina builds, it's their time. Much of it is overdue, especially heavy armor. But this whole patch doesn't need to ruin Magicka sorcerers at the same time. It seems like a lot of this wasn't thought out.

NBrookus

Sallington wrote: »

Don't tell anyone, but I bought 5/5 well-fitted shield breaker set for <12k the day they dropped patch notes. I'm about to double the world's salt supply.

I don't have any stam toons so I didn't do it, but I had the same thought!

NBrookus

bowmanz607 wrote: »

@Wrobel what about adding like 10% crit resistance to heavy armor. this would make them more tanky without going over the top.

That would do nothing for PvE tanks, who are the ones mostly getting hit with the bracing nerf.

Pangnirtung

Minalan wrote: »

@Wrobel
You are wrecking PVE. As usual the Cyrodiil mini game is allowed to ruin 90% of the rest.

This over and over and over and over again.

Zheg

Pangnirtung wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

@Wrobel
You are wrecking PVE. As usual the Cyrodiil mini game is allowed to ruin 90% of the rest.

This over and over and over and over again.

AoE caps can't be removed because of PVE, but being forced to do easy dungeons and faceroll questing with only a 6 second shield instead of 20 seconds is a crime against humanity. Nothing that guy talked about in his post takes longer than 6 seconds.

Minalan

Pangnirtung wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

@Wrobel
You are wrecking PVE. As usual the Cyrodiil mini game is allowed to ruin 90% of the rest.

This over and over and over and over again.

*sarcasm*

Quiet you. I know better than you do. This is all the reasoning my tiny brain could come up with.

Now get back in there and mash buttons in your new street-fighter online MMO!

Xsorus

I get why they did 6 second shields..you have to remember Shields are like Blocking and Dodge Rolling in this game..They're suppose to be an active defense. So now that's what they are..They're an active defense just like those two that you have to manage and do during combat..no longer can you stack 30k of shields (in magicka case) on your back bar and swap to front bar and just DPS away.

I also don't worry about Stamina users doing it either..You pretty much require 40k+ stamina and a lot of Bastion to get a somewhat reasonable 8k shield in PvP.....and its not a cheap shield when you consider you're using it for your other active defense measures....like CC Break/Dodging/Blocking along with DPS and Healing.

It also not really needed

Minalan

Xsorus wrote: »

I get why they did 6 second shields..you have to remember Shields are like Blocking and Dodge Rolling in this game..They're suppose to be an active defense. So now that's what they are..They're an active defense just like those two that you have to manage and do during combat..no longer can you stack 30k of shields (in magicka case) on your back bar and swap to front bar and just DPS away.

I also don't worry about Stamina users doing it either..You pretty much require 40k+ stamina and a lot of Bastion to get a somewhat reasonable 8k shield in PvP.....and its not a cheap shield when you consider you're using it for your other active defense measures....like CC Break/Dodging/Blocking along with DPS and Healing.

It also not really needed

If it were an invulnerability shield with no hit points, I'd agree. But they aren't.

If this were just one stacked defense ability on top of great heals, tanking, dodge, or cloak, I'd agree. But it isn't.

A 10K or so shield is all that's between us and 20K of squishy health. It isn't a choice between offense or 'Playing extra defense', because we have nothing else that other classes don't do MUCH better than a sorcerer, or we already share the ability.

Zheg

Minalan wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

I get why they did 6 second shields..you have to remember Shields are like Blocking and Dodge Rolling in this game..They're suppose to be an active defense. So now that's what they are..They're an active defense just like those two that you have to manage and do during combat..no longer can you stack 30k of shields (in magicka case) on your back bar and swap to front bar and just DPS away.

I also don't worry about Stamina users doing it either..You pretty much require 40k+ stamina and a lot of Bastion to get a somewhat reasonable 8k shield in PvP.....and its not a cheap shield when you consider you're using it for your other active defense measures....like CC Break/Dodging/Blocking along with DPS and Healing.

It also not really needed

If it were an invulnerability shield with no hit points, I'd agree. But they aren't.

If this were just one stacked defense ability on top of great heals, tanking, dodge, or cloak, I'd agree. But it isn't.

A 10K or so shield is all that's between us and 20K of squishy health. It isn't a choice between offense or 'Playing extra defense', because we have nothing else that other classes don't do MUCH better than a sorcerer, or we already share the ability.

6 seconds of INVULNERABILITY and you'd agree. Yeah, you've just further demonstrated why no one should be listening to you right now.

Minalan

Zheg wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

I get why they did 6 second shields..you have to remember Shields are like Blocking and Dodge Rolling in this game..They're suppose to be an active defense. So now that's what they are..They're an active defense just like those two that you have to manage and do during combat..no longer can you stack 30k of shields (in magicka case) on your back bar and swap to front bar and just DPS away.

I also don't worry about Stamina users doing it either..You pretty much require 40k+ stamina and a lot of Bastion to get a somewhat reasonable 8k shield in PvP.....and its not a cheap shield when you consider you're using it for your other active defense measures....like CC Break/Dodging/Blocking along with DPS and Healing.

It also not really needed

If it were an invulnerability shield with no hit points, I'd agree. But they aren't.

If this were just one stacked defense ability on top of great heals, tanking, dodge, or cloak, I'd agree. But it isn't.

A 10K or so shield is all that's between us and 20K of squishy health. It isn't a choice between offense or 'Playing extra defense', because we have nothing else that other classes don't do MUCH better than a sorcerer, or we already share the ability.

6 seconds of INVULNERABILITY and you'd agree. Yeah, you've just further demonstrated why no one should be listening to you right now.

It's gone in one shot, Incap or wrecking blow. Can you say the same for reflect and anything projectile-based?

Should a Templar heal last for six seconds and take all of the healed damage back?

Does cloak have to be refreshed every few seconds in AND out of combat?

Who else has their primary defense wrecked by this? The shield isn't nearly large enough in Cyrodiil to warrant a short timer on them.

Dovahmiim

Minalan wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

I get why they did 6 second shields..you have to remember Shields are like Blocking and Dodge Rolling in this game..They're suppose to be an active defense. So now that's what they are..They're an active defense just like those two that you have to manage and do during combat..no longer can you stack 30k of shields (in magicka case) on your back bar and swap to front bar and just DPS away.

I also don't worry about Stamina users doing it either..You pretty much require 40k+ stamina and a lot of Bastion to get a somewhat reasonable 8k shield in PvP.....and its not a cheap shield when you consider you're using it for your other active defense measures....like CC Break/Dodging/Blocking along with DPS and Healing.

It also not really needed

If it were an invulnerability shield with no hit points, I'd agree. But they aren't.

If this were just one stacked defense ability on top of great heals, tanking, dodge, or cloak, I'd agree. But it isn't.

A 10K or so shield is all that's between us and 20K of squishy health. It isn't a choice between offense or 'Playing extra defense', because we have nothing else that other classes don't do MUCH better than a sorcerer, or we already share the ability.

6 seconds of INVULNERABILITY and you'd agree. Yeah, you've just further demonstrated why no one should be listening to you right now.

It's gone in one shot, Incap or wrecking blow. Can you say the same for reflect and anything projectile-based?

Should a Templar heal last for six seconds and take all of the healed damage back?

Does cloak have to be refreshed every few seconds in AND out of combat?

Who else has their primary defense wrecked by this? The shield isn't nearly large enough in Cyrodiil to warrant a short timer on them.

Dude... stop... it hurts to read

Xsorus

Minalan wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

I get why they did 6 second shields..you have to remember Shields are like Blocking and Dodge Rolling in this game..They're suppose to be an active defense. So now that's what they are..They're an active defense just like those two that you have to manage and do during combat..no longer can you stack 30k of shields (in magicka case) on your back bar and swap to front bar and just DPS away.

I also don't worry about Stamina users doing it either..You pretty much require 40k+ stamina and a lot of Bastion to get a somewhat reasonable 8k shield in PvP.....and its not a cheap shield when you consider you're using it for your other active defense measures....like CC Break/Dodging/Blocking along with DPS and Healing.

It also not really needed

If it were an invulnerability shield with no hit points, I'd agree. But they aren't.

If this were just one stacked defense ability on top of great heals, tanking, dodge, or cloak, I'd agree. But it isn't.

A 10K or so shield is all that's between us and 20K of squishy health. It isn't a choice between offense or 'Playing extra defense', because we have nothing else that other classes don't do MUCH better than a sorcerer, or we already share the ability.

I'm confused where you're going with this

You can achieve Great Heals/Dodge fairly easy on a Magicka Sorc.....and You have Bolt Escape which is your version of Cloak.

Hell you have basically the Melee Version of Reflective Scale in the form of Daedric Mines....so i'm not exactly sure how you think you have zero defense besides Shields.

LMar

The slayer passives benefited all builds though, with them now removed it will be more difficult for magicka classes to complete certain stages in the Maelstrom Arena

Personofsecrets

OLD BLOCK COST @ 58% = Fortress + Bracing + Def Stance

NEW BLOCK COST @ 58% = Fortress + Defensive Stance + 100 Champion Point + 2-3 Sturdy Trait

In exchange for 100 CP and 2-3 Traits, if we get hit a bunch of time, then we get a minimum amount of extra damage that we most likely wont even get to utilize because we are getting hit a bunch of times and need to focus on surviving. Don't forget that the base value for block cost is increasing with the Dark Brotherhood.

ZOS IS KILLING US ON THESE TRADE DEALS

The value that players are ever going to get from Sturdy is about half of what the Sturdy tool tip says. This discrepancy is due to how diminished returns work. Bracing didn't have that issue.

" - The combination of the Fortress and Bracing passive effects are something that I appreciate. I think that development really carefully considered block cost mitigation during its initial creation. It is frustrating that diminished returns severely affects this stat, but these two passives, and especially so in tandem, are what really make sword and board or heavy armor valuable." - Personofsecrets February 2016

Personofsecrets

"Heavy Armor has more resources and damage than before" - @Wrobel

That isn't necessarily true because you removed the best HA passive.

The better way for HA users to get damage would have been to let them decide to use divines trait gear with the Thief or Shadow stone.

I personally challenge you, @Wrobel , to a duel on live just so that I can show you that a HA user can stack up decent damage without their best passive ability being ruined.