So Archery tho...

Anti_Virus

vontariel wrote: »

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

Heck there isn't even a cool represention of Archers in PVE Mobs most of them are never a threat anyways (except for taking aim skill) I think there are only 2 Archer bosses, and NPCs don't have any cool animations not do they pose a thread like the warrior and mage and Rouge NPCs.

You are very wrong on that.
All strongest archers in tamriel are in vMSA. This is only place in whole game when focusing and killing archers are biggest priority.

I see, I haven't really played maelstrom arena (Vet version) so forgive my ignorance on that one

Anti_Virus

Moonshadow66 wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

Read the Patch Notes, and I love the changes so far.... heavy armor tanks got buffed, vamps got buffed, FG etc. But archery got very little buffs.

Poison injectiom got a 12% increase, that's good.
Draining shot got a heal after its use (although Idk how it works)

And that's it *sigh* I guess it's safe to say that archers are in the minority in this game I guess not alot of people try to main hand a bow in this game hence the small buffs each update.

I guess my favorite play style will be left in the dust.....

The best builds are rarely, if at all, full weapon builds. I do not know of a Dstaff build that is full dstaff nor a 2H or DW build full of skills from those skill trees.

Though it would be great if this was possible

I started levelling a bow and DW with two characters only at VR16, and with a 3rd VR16 also but she was halfway through already. While trying to get all these skills up and enough skills where finally unlocked, I had the bow bar full of bow skills and the DW bar full of DW skills (just to level those lines quicker). It does work, but it's really hard with a bow to stay alive when the enemies get closer. Whenever I died too often and tried again, I had to switch to the DW bar to finish it.

So I guess it is possible with all active skills being weapon skills up to a certain point, but it's not really viable. Also, I was doing this mainly while playing the Wrothgar content, it's still easy enough for this, well, except the died-and-use-DW moments. I don't think it's the best idea in PvP or dungeons, though.

I was trying using a bow back in beta already and hated it; to me it felt like "throwing eggs". I came straight from Skyrim where I "favor the bow" (as the guards say^^) and the differences couldn't be any bigger. I'm aware that ESO is an MMO and the combat mechanics are very different, but what I missed a LOT was, besides of the enormous damage, using tactics.

The arrows aren't "real", that's one thing; you cannot trick the enemy by shooting an arrow behind them to let them search for you in the wrong direction of the area while waiting for the perfect moment to put them an "arrow to the knee". And their AI is different as well. Tactics like this are not possible in ESO, but what's archery without tactics? For having to do it without, the skills should be stronger, imo.
I got used to the bow in ESO and even like it now, but I don't "favor it".

Same, I played Dragons Dogma (I know I keep referring to that) and the ranger class is a combo of Range and Melee except they they are a primarily focused on archery with daggers as there secondary weapon.

I wanted to emulate that in this game but currently (for me at least) its just not that viable.

I'll have to link a game play video of the ranger class in this thread to clarify what i'm talking about because most people don't really understand what my concern with the bow is.

vontariel

The only way for archers to be functional both in PvP and PvE is for them to have reliable dps tools.
As long as snipe will be unreliable and have no real alternative there will be problems with it. It'seems kinda ironic that propably most missed shot in game come from skill named SNIPE.
Reduced travel time will net more reliable hits both in PvE (less wasted shots) and especially PVP.
Reduced cast from 1 to 0.75 will bring more responsiveness in both pvp (more time outside of casting) and will net about 10-15% of dps increase which archers VERY much need.

Anti_Virus

vontariel wrote: »

The only way for archers to be functional both in PvP and PvE is for them to have reliable dps tools.
As long as snipe will be unreliable and have no real alternative there will be problems with it. It'seems kinda ironic that propably most missed shot in game come from skill named SNIPE.
Reduced travel time will net more reliable hits both in PvE (less wasted shots) and especially PVP.
Reduced cast from 1 to 0.75 will bring more responsiveness in both pvp (more time outside of casting) and will net about 10-15% of dps increase which archers VERY much need.

This. As long as snipe functions the way it does now, Archery will continue to suck and only be good for group play or stealth Ganking....

Eryas

A part of the problem in my eyes is that stam archers have no good ranged ult and the class & guild skill lines don't add to the playstyle like they do to for example mag staff users.

CP5

I recall a video that was posted a while ago showing a fight with both 2H and bow. The 2H fight was quick and boring, and the bow fight took significantly longer but was far more interesting and engaging. Why is it so much to ask for bow to be a reliable weapon and not just a support tool people use for the dots to buff their dps?

cyclonus11

Eryas wrote: »

A part of the problem in my eyes is that stam archers have no good ranged ult and the class & guild skill lines don't add to the playstyle like they do to for example mag staff users.

I use the Ultimate from the Soul Trap skill line, since it hits from ranged and snares. Sucks that it isn't instant, though.

Anti_Virus

CP5 wrote: »

I recall a video that was posted a while ago showing a fight with both 2H and bow. The 2H fight was quick and boring, and the bow fight took significantly longer but was far more interesting and engaging. Why is it so much to ask for bow to be a reliable weapon and not just a support tool people use for the dots to buff their dps?

This brought a Tear to my eye.
Thank you.

Anti_Virus

Eryas wrote: »

A part of the problem in my eyes is that stam archers have no good ranged ult and the class & guild skill lines don't add to the playstyle like they do to for example mag staff users.

Yep, No good ranged stamina skills either which also sucks

CasNation

Has anyone, oh, I don't know, actually parsed bow as main hand dps yet? The changes to scorched earth were huge, and one of the main Dots got buffed. That doesn't change the issue of snipe being the only spammable, but has anyone actually tried yet? Anyone? Did I miss a post earlier?

SneaK

I think it depends heavily on what class you play.

I recall seeing a video of an archer stam sorc (Dawg, if he's around) that was awesome. He used surge to get his major brut and could use streak to kite around while dishing out his arrows. He had an impressive build, that meshed well with his class. I think you'll just have to find some common ground between the bow and your class. How to maintain distance, mainly. I picture Stamplar being the hardest class to main a bow.

CP5

CasNation wrote: »

Has anyone, oh, I don't know, actually parsed bow as main hand dps yet? The changes to scorched earth were huge, and one of the main Dots got buffed. That doesn't change the issue of snipe being the only spammable, but has anyone actually tried yet? Anyone? Did I miss a post earlier?

Problem remains that bows snare/root is 20m range and you would need that to reliably keep enemies inside of volley's aoe. But since you need to be beyond that range to benefit the most from the ranged damage buff you either keep enemies in volley and keep it useful, or get the most out of your passives to deal damage. The buff to poison arrow will make poison injection very strong on low health targets, will say that much.

olsborg

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

Read the Patch Notes, and I love the changes so far.... heavy armor tanks got buffed, vamps got buffed, FG etc. But archery got very little buffs.

Poison injectiom got a 12% increase, that's good.
Draining shot got a heal after its use (although Idk how it works)

And that's it *sigh* I guess it's safe to say that archers are in the minority in this game I guess not alot of people try to main hand a bow in this game hence the small buffs each update.

I guess my favorite play style will be left in the dust.....

Draining shot got a heal, yes, but for pvp its not that great, you cant utilize it as a heal on someone that is:

1. Blocking
2. CC Immune

Wich makes it very, very situational at best. If they simply added a mechanic like:

• It heals you when cc is over or broken
• If target is cc immune, the heal will happen after 5 seconds (the duration of the cc)

That would make it useful for pvp aswell.

Anti_Virus

CasNation wrote: »

Has anyone, oh, I don't know, actually parsed bow as main hand dps yet? The changes to scorched earth were huge, and one of the main Dots got buffed. That doesn't change the issue of snipe being the only spammable, but has anyone actually tried yet? Anyone? Did I miss a post earlier?

I've tried to make it work

I currently have a bow build but its under construction:

5 peice Eternal Hunt
3 peice Nightmothers
3 Agility(2 robust, 1 healthy)
All jewelry is Weapon dmg

All gear is max Stam

My Bow has Disease enchant
Daggers have Poison enchant

Skills:
Bow bar: focused aim, Draining shot,Mark target, Shadowy disguise, Poison Injection ultimate is Dawnbreaker.

Dual wield:
Flurry, flying blade,vigor,shuffle, Killers blade Ultimate is DawnBreaker.


Stats:

Blue Orsinium Food (Max health and stam regen)

Magic: 9K
Health: 17K
Stam: 30K

Stam regen: 2.1K( 2.3k buffed with potions)

Bow weapon dmg 2800 (3.2K buffed)
Daggers weapon dmg 3.1K ( 3.7K buffed)

Eternal hunt Is used for defense since its poison it deals decent dmg (6K crit in pvp) and immobilizes acting like a boot leg daedric mine.

Anti_Virus

SneaK wrote: »

I think it depends heavily on what class you play.

I recall seeing a video of an archer stam sorc (Dawg, if he's around) that was awesome. He used surge to get his major brut and could use streak to kite around while dishing out his arrows. He had an impressive build, that meshed well with his class. I think you'll just have to find some common ground between the bow and your class. How to maintain distance, mainly. I picture Stamplar being the hardest class to main a bow.

I remeber that guy Dagh with a stam sorc Kajiit right? His build was very unique and I wish more people would try that.

I play Nightblade so I beleive that its the easiest to keep your distance (cloak) but no matter what you can't keep your distance sadly you can only cloak/Streak so many times.

And yeah while some classes can Kite others can't so maybe some new revisions would help.

SneaK

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

I think it depends heavily on what class you play.

I recall seeing a video of an archer stam sorc (Dawg, if he's around) that was awesome. He used surge to get his major brut and could use streak to kite around while dishing out his arrows. He had an impressive build, that meshed well with his class. I think you'll just have to find some common ground between the bow and your class. How to maintain distance, mainly. I picture Stamplar being the hardest class to main a bow.

I remeber that guy Dagh with a stam sorc Kajiit right? His build was very unique and I wish more people would try that.

I play Nightblade so I beleive that its the easiest to keep your distance (cloak) but no matter what you can't keep your distance sadly

And yeah while some classes can Kite others can't so maybe some now revisions would help.

Yea that's him.

(Probably already have..) As a NB, you could try shadow image, mass hysteria, and maneuvers to try to keep distance... I think a NB archer could be successful.

Also, the change to Relentless Focus could be a good resource for an archer build.

Mojmir

Should draining shot attempt to heal on every hit? The visual is cool but I don't see it on every hit,new health bars aren't good either they're same color.

idk

wrong area. Deleted.

Anti_Virus

SneaK wrote: »

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

I think it depends heavily on what class you play.

I recall seeing a video of an archer stam sorc (Dawg, if he's around) that was awesome. He used surge to get his major brut and could use streak to kite around while dishing out his arrows. He had an impressive build, that meshed well with his class. I think you'll just have to find some common ground between the bow and your class. How to maintain distance, mainly. I picture Stamplar being the hardest class to main a bow.

I remeber that guy Dagh with a stam sorc Kajiit right? His build was very unique and I wish more people would try that.

I play Nightblade so I beleive that its the easiest to keep your distance (cloak) but no matter what you can't keep your distance sadly

And yeah while some classes can Kite others can't so maybe some now revisions would help.

Yea that's him.

(Probably already have..) As a NB, you could try shadow image, mass hysteria, and maneuvers to try to keep distance... I think a NB archer could be successful.

Also, the change to Relentless Focus could be a good resource for an archer build.

I REALLY want that skill to cost stamina and just be a dps skill instead if what it is now, that would be cool

Imagine: relentless focus, cost stamina

Now fires a spectral bow dealing ex Disease dmg no longer has minor berserk and allows you to fire it multiple times after 4 light attacks for the duration.

But but the problem is if that skill did what I described it would alienate non NBs that use a bow.

vontariel

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

I REALLY want that skill to cost stamina and just be a dps skill instead if what it is now, that would be cool.
Imagine: relentless focus, cost stamina

I dunno what you are talking about. Relentless focus already scales of max stamina (or magicka whatever higher). It costing stamina would be only nerf for us, as it would create another stamina drain. With new patch one of morphs damage type is changed to disease, so this skill doesn't need ANY fixes.

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

Now fires a spectral bow dealing ex Disease dmg no longer has a and allows you to fire it multiple times after 4 light attacks for the duration.

Although it would be good to have, it would be way too OP cost-wise, and this change is NOT needed.

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

But but the problem is if that skill did what I described it would alienate non NBs that use a bow.

Problem is, changes you propose would make it broken OP.

Bow is NOT in terrible position right now, and especially on PTS.
It is worse than other stam weapons, sure, but what is needed are tweaks to snipe, and maybe additional stack of new passive to be on par with other weapons, because that would net this missing ~3-5k DPS to catch other weapons, and make this weapon much, MUCH more reliable.
Because, let's be real; range is only advantage when you are allowed to use it. In most competetive PvE there is no option to stay on 20+m and snipe peacefully. Especially on vMSA, where is matter of seconds, before something sits on your face, dealing 8-12k dmg per hit. And in PvP there are too many gap closers.

Anti_Virus

vontariel wrote: »

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

I REALLY want that skill to cost stamina and just be a dps skill instead if what it is now, that would be cool.
Imagine: relentless focus, cost stamina

I dunno what you are talking about. Relentless focus already scales of max stamina (or magicka whatever higher). It costing stamina would be only nerf for us, as it would create another stamina drain. With new patch one of morphs damage type is changed to disease, so this skill doesn't need ANY fixes.

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

Now fires a spectral bow dealing ex Disease dmg no longer has a and allows you to fire it multiple times after 4 light attacks for the duration.

Although it would be good to have, it would be way too OP cost-wise, and this change is NOT needed.

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

But but the problem is if that skill did what I described it would alienate non NBs that use a bow.

Problem is, changes you propose would make it broken OP.

Bow is NOT in terrible position right now, and especially on PTS.
It is worse than other stam weapons, sure, but what is needed are tweaks to snipe, and maybe additional stack of new passive to be on par with other weapons, because that would net this missing ~3-5k DPS to catch other weapons, and make this weapon much, MUCH more reliable.
Because, let's be real; range is only advantage when you are allowed to use it. In most competetive PvE there is no option to stay on 20+m and snipe peacefully. Especially on vMSA, where is matter of seconds, before something sits on your face, dealing 8-12k dmg per hit. And in PvP there are too many gap closers.

Meh, thats why it was a suggestion but Then again ya.
But I don't think bow is bad at all especially with the CP changes and hawk eye changes, but it just need a good spammable dps skill that's all.

I though Assassins Scourge would do it but then I realized how OP that would be.

FOR EVERYONE HERE: Don't get the wrong Idea Here I'm noy Advocating for Archery to be an OP fotm playstyle, just offering up ridiculous suggestions from other MMOs that have actual dedicated archers.

Also most of my posts are typed on my phone so sorry for spelling errors.

Teko

Have anyone done some real testing on PTS with bows because they doesn't look so bad on a paper atm with DB and last changes from TG ?

vontariel

I tested it.
I can't tell real difference cause FTC is not available on PTS atm, but it feels *slightly* better. Mainly because draining shot is somewhat usable (it's powerful, yet very limited; it doesn't work in situations when you need it most), or maybe just because relentless focus get scaling from mighty.

I don't count changes in scorched earth (hail of arrows) or poison injection, since nearly every stamina DPS uses those skills, so this helps nothing in closing the power gap.

Anti_Virus

vontariel wrote: »

I tested it.
I can't tell real difference cause FTC is not available on PTS atm, but it feels *slightly* better. Mainly because draining shot is somewhat usable (it's powerful, yet very limited; it doesn't work in situations when you need it most), or maybe just because relentless focus get scaling from mighty.

I don't count changes in scorched earth (hail of arrows) or poison injection, since nearly every stamina DPS uses those skills, so this helps nothing in closing the power gap.

How is Assassins Scourge preforming with the changes that make it scale with mighty?

Teko

I don't have access to PTR but can someone do a small test because i wounder how DK archer would perform with all the changes to they skills and passives.

I mean i am kinda new player but Combustion + World in Ruin should increase damage with Lethal Arrow,Poison Injection and Acid Spray nicely and Noxious Breath may be worth to keep up ?

lathbury

vontariel wrote: »

Kimba_Do wrote: »

This one suspect a killing could be made selling sharp sticks for people to poke each other.

That being said, one alt is an archer/NB, albeit still low level. It seems functional, if a bit fragile. A good mix of abilities on the bar helps, but Khajiit suspects technique is the prime factor in making an archer a success. In other words, skill comes from the player more than the abilities - no matter how worthless/devastating an ability is, should one lack the knowledge and skills to use it effectively, one will fail on a regular basis.

That's true, to the certain degree. No matter how skilled you are, you couldn't breach gap between potential performance of one and other builds. On competetive environment most magicka builds are something like 25-30k single target DPS for whole fights (more than 1 min ofc). DW/2H are reaching something like ~25k-28k DPS. For Bow it's struggle to maintain that magic 20k cap. No matter how you look at it its 25-30% difference in overall performance.

wrong dw dk is 40k+ most other dw builds and nb casters are 30-35k