Zenimax Broke PVP and it will never be fixed

RinaldoGandolphi

As you will see in the video below, 1.5 was the last enjoyable PVP in this game.

you will notice multiple times that :

1. there are more then 20 people on screen, raids stacked together impulse and other AOE going off and lag is nearly non-existent.
2. Solo and small scale PVP was viable
3. The game was not zerg warfare
4. The gamer didn't have sets like Vicious Death and skills like Proxy Det encouraging 1 button pressing skinless kill game play.
5. It doesn't lag

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Twdk7CCUk-E


1.6 was the death of PVP in this game...regardless of what class you played...ESO best PVP days are behind it, and it will only get worse probably. I want everyone to see this video so they can see how this game actually worked before ZOS put that entire bugged code called the Champion System and other things in 1.6 that put the final nail in PVP performance.

in 1.5 the core game worked.

CC immunity worked
Weapon swap worked 99.9% of the time
Gap closers, Bombard and other such soft CC skills didn't freeze your toon and prevent you from swapping weapons
The game didn't lag
outnumbered PVP was possible.
Zergs were counterable by 3-4 smart players and they didn't need proxy det or Vicious Death one shot nonsense either
Blinding Flashes Templar;s were good against Zergs
Tank Dk were good against Zergs
Sorcs were good at stringing out smaller numbers seperating and killing
Nightblades were good at quick kills and getting away


This is a hard dose of reality for many of you....its doubt performance improves much if at all....They need to roll the game back to 1.5 code at the very least and do away with the CS and the layer of code it added to the game, but they are simply not going to do that...as they keep upping the CP cap and more passives get unlocked it will continue to wax worse and worse.

If only Zenimax would set up a 1.5 Server Cluster and make it sub only...i'd pay them 35 bucks a month easily for a 1.5 server with no CP and non of this other stuff...just take my money ZOS...buts its simply not gonna happen....whatever code they layered with the Cs in 1.6 put the final nail in PVP performance...the lighting patch hurt it bad, but 1.6 finished if off. What a shame....:(

Firerock2

I remember CC immunity being buggy forever and I do remember some lag but I agree that 1.5 was far better than anything that has come after it, it's really sad that they decided to change the game to this.

RadioheadSh0t

Xsorus

1.5 PvP was best we had...no doubt about that

But there was lag present in the game (more ping then FPS)

RadioheadSh0t

I really miss the way PvP used to be. It wasn't perfect, but it was far better than what we have currently.

Back in those days I could join a guild raid with Decibel on my Sorc or DK and play the map, or I could solo and find enough 1vX opportunities for fun. The game supported both styles. Now, when I solo I find very few players who aren't grouped in medium-to-large groups, and I can't jump into groups because performance has taken a nose-dive. At best when soloing, I can kill a couple people until their group comes and steamrolls me, and it seems everyone has gotten into the habit of chasing down solo players in large groups. Sure, people have always done that to some extent, but I remember leaving solo players alone when in group and other groups leaving me alone when I was soloing. That's long gone, and in its place are groups of 6 NBs who just hit you all at once from stealth with snipes... because thats skillful...

SoulScream

Before TG hit I wrote feedback that it looked bad to me and I would not play anymore. I haven't played since. I still check the forums in case there is a big change.

For me even if lag were fixed I wouldn't return as I don't like the way the game play has changed.

Master_Kas

Xsorus wrote: »

1.5 PvP was best we had...no doubt about that

But there was lag present in the game (more ping then FPS)

Agreed 1.5 was so guut. I want to cry IRL

manny254

Xsorus wrote: »

1.5 PvP was best we had...no doubt about that

But there was lag present in the game (more ping then FPS)

Yeah everyone exploiting Wall of Elements sure was fun.

Firerock2

manny254 wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

1.5 PvP was best we had...no doubt about that

But there was lag present in the game (more ping then FPS)

Yeah everyone exploiting Wall of Elements sure was fun.

This patch has far more cheese abilities than 1.5 did.

zyk

The experiences we had in patches past were not only the result of the state of the game at the time, but also the state of the eso playerbase.

IMO, the average player is much better now than then. I bet the average player utilizes far more server resources now than before -- by playing more mobile, better organized and executing abilities at a higher rate.

I felt 2.1 fixed much of the performance issues introduced with 1.6, but the gains made were erased by the broken game design; better server performance essentially enabled larger zergs.

ZOS itself says there are "no silver bullets" for server performance at a technical level. That is why they MUST redesign the gameplay. It should be also decoupled from PVE so that abilities can be better tailored for AvA without regard to the PVE impact; and vice versa.

Cormore

this made me cry

Emma_Overload

I shed a tear when I saw that Sorc rocking Unstoppable on his off bar... those were the days! Now it's useless, even for stamina builds.

Talcyndl

Azuras is as close to that as you'll get. No CP is good for PvP.

Poxheart

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Nightblades were good at quick kills and getting away

I wish I had more footage of my nightblade from this time. For me the class has never been as good as it was then.

Derra

Still think 1.5 was terrible pvp.

1.1 to 1.3 and 1.6 was nice.

VShane

maybe they will completely remove PVP rather than fix it?

Ghostbane

manny254 wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

1.5 PvP was best we had...no doubt about that

But there was lag present in the game (more ping then FPS)

Yeah everyone exploiting Wall of Elements sure was fun.

** Everyone relying on opponents to use Purge

Rakshat

1.1-1.3 and 1.5 was when I had the most fun in pvp even though it was just as laggy as it is now.
The non-CP campaign is not bad at all but it's way too crowded:<

BurritoESO

1.5 was the best, unfortunately ZOS will never let us see those days again though, this is the way the want their game, CP pumped players that can 3 shot people and never run out of resources. They don't care what we want, they care what they want, and what they want is extremely illogical in every decision they make because they don't even take the time to actually play their own game. They can't even take time out of their day to communicate to us anymore.

Kas

1.5 was totally broken. you just had fun farming noobs.
a group of 20+ closely stacking on the crown and stacking 5+ negates on impact so your side would be the one with 3 banners and shittons of healing springs up, would kill everything.

we only figured out how negates worked (removes everything except for enemy negates where it only overwrote ONE. i.e. stacking more then the enemy was the only thing important to secure a spot. timing was not necessary) FAAAR to late. but I don't think we lost a single fight during the last week where we had finally understood it.

E: suddenly i'm not so sure anymore. maybe imba negates was 1.4 and not 1.5. but at least broken 1.5 walls + purge were pretty stupid as well.

further, 1.5 ult generation and the dk passive was just broken.

I kinda like the current balance and playstyle, tbh. ofc, the lag is a HUGE problem, but THAT went downhill with the light-effects patch, much earlier than 1.5 and not with 1.6

Junipus

1.5 had massive lag.

Before then you'd have:

No skill bar swapping in combat
Having to dismount to apply rapid or eat food buffs
1 FPS gameplay at random until you relogged
Long queues to get into PvP as we do now
That brief wonderful/nightmare time when fighters guild would proc insta-death 100%
Infini-tank DKs with high dps who were unkillable
Perma-saptank bats
Igneous shield acting as proxy
Perma-bats
Lag so bad only light attacks worked.

Also:
No-one used bombard because the meta was stack and move like a slow ball of death, rooting to separate wasn't needed
Raids were just negate wars, whoever had the most sorcs won
CC immunity wasn't a major issue since everyone used pulsar, streak, talons or whip
Sorcs and NBs can still do what you claim was only/better in 1.5
1.5 was good for hybrid play, something we won't get back for a very long time.

Septimus_Magna

It might sound strange but pvp in Cyrodiil isnt working because there's the option to pve in Cyrodiil.

If there only was pvp in Cyrodiil there wouldnt be need for harvest nodes, dungeons with npcs etc. Without harvest nodes etc there's no point in running bots in Cyrodiil and which means that many server side processes could be pushed back to the client side (similar to before the lightning patch). This would allow us to enjoy lag free pvp all over Cyrodiil.

All the pve-content in Cyrodiil could remain accessabel through a non-pvp campaign for example.

An other option could be to only allow certified/checked add-ons (like Apps on Apple products) so its harder for people to cheat or create bots in the first place and more processes can be pushed to client side.

RinaldoGandolphi

Lag now is far worse then anything 1.5 had.

I would like to go back to the pre-lighting patch myself, just my two cents.

regardless, 1.6 put the final nail in the coffin for PVP performance though...does anyone recall the 50 meteor in que lag 999+ ping we got with 1.6 that really sent things down the drain?

Fact is, pre-lighting patch code was really the only code they had that made large scale PVP possible and for whatever reason they refuse to roll the game back to that state and take the game in a direction that works.

You don't need the Champion System as a form progression, what you need is frequent updates, gear progression that makes sense, and fresh content. Of course they would rather have a system of grinding mobs then progressive gear and content.

OdinForge

1.6 was the start of the end, the point at which this game could only get worse. Although I had a ton of fun as a small scale player in 1.6, I definitely had more fun in earlier patches and earlier patches had far less performance issues. But I remember friends back in the 1.x-1.5 days saying the usual lines of "I'm done with this game" or "Something needs to change or I'm leaving". It's the one constant theme among ESO that transcended every patch, and if those friends saw how the game is today they'd just laugh.

Reverse Slice group execute, gg.

RIP ESO

Firerock2

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Lag now is far worse then anything 1.5 had.

I would like to go back to the pre-lighting patch myself, just my two cents.

regardless, 1.6 put the final nail in the coffin for PVP performance though...does anyone recall the 50 meteor in que lag 999+ ping we got with 1.6 that really sent things down the drain?

Fact is, pre-lighting patch code was really the only code they had that made large scale PVP possible and for whatever reason they refuse to roll the game back to that state and take the game in a direction that works.

You don't need the Champion System as a form progression, what you need is frequent updates, gear progression that makes sense, and fresh content. Of course they would rather have a system of grinding mobs then progressive gear and content.

Completely agree with you and that's why I hardly play this game anymore, I browse the forums every now and then hoping though.

frozywozy

The game is in a much better state than it has ever been. There are things that got worse and things that got better. Overall, I would never go back behind. I would like to get some aspects of the game back though. This being said, I would like to give a special shoutout to the dev team for all the bug fixes that most people tend to forget and neglect super fast. You guys did a great job fixing lot of them past two years.

RIP ground oil.

_Chaos

frozywozy wrote: »

The game is in a much better state than it has ever been. There are things that got worse and things that got better. Overall, I would never go back behind. I would like to get some aspects of the game back though. This being said, I would like to give a special shoutout to the dev team for all the bug fixes that most people tend to forget and neglect super fast. You guys did a great job fixing lot of them past two years.

RIP ground oil.

I see you went back stam, chicken.

Minno

frozywozy wrote: »

The game is in a much better state than it has ever been. There are things that got worse and things that got better. Overall, I would never go back behind. I would like to get some aspects of the game back though. This being said, I would like to give a special shoutout to the dev team for all the bug fixes that most people tend to forget and neglect super fast. You guys did a great job fixing lot of them past two years.

RIP ground oil.

They just need a hard look at how CP affects their balance (and obvious performance issues). It was crazy how much the non-CP campaign negated many balance issues but was chastised as the place that only took away your hard grinding work. Those burst builds you see in videos, don't exist in Azura because you have to add regen that many builds today artificially placed into their CP placement.

If we could pop-lock Azura, ID like to hear people's thoughts afterwards.

starlizard70ub17_ESO

I'm in agreement with @Septimus_Magna here. The single best way to fix Cryodiil is to have a PvE version along with a normal PvP campaigns. I'm like a lot of players I think, I'll PvP sometimes when I feel like it, but I mainly PvE. So here I am in Cryodiil (and IC), collecting skyshards, grinding xp, etc when I'm bored of/ or running out of places in PvE land to do those things. Meanwhile I'm adding to lag, taking up a campaign slot that a PvPer would use, not contributing to or for that matter not even caring who's "winning" the war. And why am I in Cryodiil? Because after I've played through the DLC content a dozen times or more, there really isn't any place challenging other than Cryodiil. Cryodiil has become the go to place to kill time for PvEers while waiting for the next DLC. Please don't suggest Craghorn, what could have been is not what is. Everyone, (except maybe Zeni), knows Craghorn is a huge waste of space, only useful for farming nincrux from time to time. For the 2 years I've been playing, I've resisted seperating Cryodiil into PvP and PvE sections. However with the seeming limited ability or will to fix the problems in PvP Cryodiil (and IC), this is the only plan I can think of that would work to some extent.

RinaldoGandolphi

Minno wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

The game is in a much better state than it has ever been. There are things that got worse and things that got better. Overall, I would never go back behind. I would like to get some aspects of the game back though. This being said, I would like to give a special shoutout to the dev team for all the bug fixes that most people tend to forget and neglect super fast. You guys did a great job fixing lot of them past two years.

RIP ground oil.

They just need a hard look at how CP affects their balance (and obvious performance issues). It was crazy how much the non-CP campaign negated many balance issues but was chastised as the place that only took away your hard grinding work. Those burst builds you see in videos, don't exist in Azura because you have to add regen that many builds today artificially placed into their CP placement.

If we could pop-lock Azura, ID like to hear people's thoughts afterwards.

Agreed 100% no CP and removal of Battle Spirit nerf and softcaps we would have something pretty good.

Zheg

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

The game is in a much better state than it has ever been. There are things that got worse and things that got better. Overall, I would never go back behind. I would like to get some aspects of the game back though. This being said, I would like to give a special shoutout to the dev team for all the bug fixes that most people tend to forget and neglect super fast. You guys did a great job fixing lot of them past two years.

RIP ground oil.

They just need a hard look at how CP affects their balance (and obvious performance issues). It was crazy how much the non-CP campaign negated many balance issues but was chastised as the place that only took away your hard grinding work. Those burst builds you see in videos, don't exist in Azura because you have to add regen that many builds today artificially placed into their CP placement.

If we could pop-lock Azura, ID like to hear people's thoughts afterwards.

Agreed 100% no CP and removal of Battle Spirit nerf and softcaps we would have something pretty good.

Do you have any idea how broken (even more so than what we currently have, which says a lot) removing battle spirit would make pvp? Do that and who will care about CP and regen, all you need is to hit a single prox and ultimate and GG.