I Feel Sad for the Players Who Run Trade Guilds

Conquistador

The trading system in this game might be okay. No question. However, it's the most disgusting thing from a game developer to have put people in this sort of situation because of how hard it actually is to maintain a trade guild. The management and volunteers suffer greatly from this game's trading system, who have to serve hours and hours of "gaming" to produce one small aspect of a game.

The main cities should have more trading caravans or something. Zenimax should produce better guild tools that are designed for different types of guilds or something. The first time I have seen what a large trading guild does behind the scenes made me sick. Google docs, spreadsheets, waking up at dawnbreak to make sure they secured a trader, pushing for raffles and donations, not enjoying the game. Why they do it I will never know. What I do know is that something needs to be done about it.

Most people don't care because they don't understand this small aspect of gaming.

goatlyonesub17_ESO

I've notice several calls for "volunteers" to fill positions as guild officers to handle store-related chores. I've been cautious about them so far.

emily3989

Well, people do it, despite not enjoying the game I guess. That's their business, but certainly there are enough willing to do all that to populate Tamriel with guild traders, so who are any of us to want to change it? If someone wants to volunteer to do a crappy job on their own time, who am I to go to their boss and tell them to change things?

Katahdin

Yea more trade kiosks would be a good thing. The timing of bids does suck, but it could be changed to make it easier on people.

Good guilds will have multiple people willing to help and helping so that it doesn't fall to one person all the time.

Nacacia

I think that a lot of the people who run the larger and more successful trading guilds, and certainly those that volunteer to help them, like that sort of detail oriented responsibility. To be honest, updating a spreadsheet or running a raffle seems just as tedious as running the same group dungeons over and over and over and over and over again, just one benefits hundreds of players and the other not so many...

Necrelios

We need more gold sinks other than stockpiling mats for the next major update. What we need is some way for guild traders to flaunt their wealth. Where is the flaunting?! Having stuff to spend gold on would make it more worthwhile IMHO.

WalkingLegacy

Or something.

Erraln

Some people feel rewarded by organizing events and groups to help others, you know. Early Monday mornings aside (That part does suck!) the time-sink doesn't have to be very intense, and I wouldn't call it 'suffering' by a long shot. An active officer team makes all the difference; trying to run a large guild by yourself is a part-time or full-time job.

New guild tools, though, would be great. Many suggestions have been made on that front in the past, anything they could come up with which expands guild interaction would be cool.

Thelon

Its a young man's game

WalkingLegacy

Thelon wrote: »

Its a young man's game

I think it's a jobless or stay at home *fillinblank* type of game.

Erraln

WalkingLegacy wrote: »

Thelon wrote: »

Its a young man's game

I think it's a jobless or stay at home *fillinblank* type of game.

Nope. The best guild leaders tend to have experience dealing with people constructively irl.

Trikfut

You would be surprised to discover that some people actually enjoy doing that kind of thing in a game. I had such an online friend once that did similar things for a game we played. Yea, it seems a bit overwhelming even in my opinion, but i'd say that in the end it's up to those players who are doing it. No one's holding a gun to their head and saying they have to do it.
I do agree though that a few more traders won't hurt the system and possibly a way to establish a trade specific guild with some handy tools for it. Of course those would be limited in other ways to avoid possible unfairness towards the normal guilds.

Pandorii

I agree with the OP that it's a lot of work to run a trader guild with the current system. I don't think adding more kiosks is the solution. This will just create more trader guilds with more organizers doing the same work. I'm inclined to suggest a universal auction house system instead. I haven't seen any strong arguments against it, with the caveat that they add an item search feature.

GarnetFire17

You get better it at it like any other aspect in the game I suppose, though i am only and officer i feel like i am doing much of the actual work. And guilds get stronger over time after kicking out the inactives and those that won't donate a penny and recruiting more generous members. After you have the member base you want and aren't recruiting so much it's not all that stressful. I enjoy participating in the auctions, even do some auctioning myself. It's fun.

Esquire1980g_ESO

2nd on the more vendors, expecialy in the main pact cities.

This systems not that bad, even from 1 who played SWG for 8 years+. Player vendors were something I always liked there. In fact, they could do the same thing that SWG did by letting players place vendors in their houses/cities (however that comes out) and have another gold sink in the game, all at the same time.

Reevster

An easy solution is to have a list of all guild traders in all the zones so players can actually find other guilds traders with out spending hours running around looking for them.

code65536

You get used to it. That said, there are things I'd improve if I had dictatorial powers at ZOS.

A bid system where you only pay enough to outbid the competition instead of the full amount you bid would relieve a lot of stress and guesswork.

A better way to manage guild finances would be nice, too. A seller currently loses 8% of a sale. 1% to listing fees (gold sink), and 7% to the "House Cut". What most people don't realizes is that only half of that 7% goes to the guild. The other 3.5% goes to ZOS and is another gold sink. This is why trade guilds need raffles and donations, because a 3.5% sales tax is not nearly enough for the weekly bids.

Let us set our own tax rates. This way, guilds in premium spots can charge high taxes, and guilds out in the wilderness can charge much lower taxes. Soooo much of the work of managing a trade guild is rounding up the funds for the weekly bid. Letting us set a tax rate that's self-sustainable would eliminate the need for raffles, donations, weekly dues or whatever other schemes guilds have to use to keep afloat. And it gives the sellers a more meaningful choice. A seller in Rawl'kha would likely have to pay much higher taxes, but they'll reach a much larger customer base. It's also more equitable: the people who benefit the most from a good trader location are also the ones paying the most to help keep that.

Oh, and 30 shelf spots are way too low. How about letting people rent more shelf space? The funds from that can go to the guild. The sellers who benefit the most from the guild can now list more items and support the guild's bids at the same time.

wenchmore420b14_ESO

I am a professional chef in RL, and my management skills definitely help me in running a guild. I have friends who run a few of the biggest trade guilds in NA/PC, and I can honestly say, yes, it is a job. I have had times I stopped playing as it became a job and not for fun, but, thank Azura I got past that with the help of some GREAT guild mates. A guild is not one person or just the GM's, it is for all the guildies and they are what makes a good, fun guild.
New guild tools for GM's is SO needed, and has been since launch. Below is a great thread concerning Guild tools. Maybe time to start it up again...Huzzah!

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/145742/help-we-need-more-guild-management-tools/p1

Wolfster

If you've ever played EVE Online you know that actually some people get a lot out of this kind of organisation, and I can promise you that a trade guild in ESO is way less effort than running a major nullsec alliance.

Way.

Less.

Effort.

OrangeTheCat

OP, as someone who GMed a trading guild (Dominion Merchant's Guild) for about 1.5 years, I agree - it was horrible. Guild is now defunct and I won't resurrect it.

Conquistador

Wolfster wrote: »

If you've ever played EVE Online you know that actually some people get a lot out of this kind of organisation, and I can promise you that a trade guild in ESO is way less effort than running a major nullsec alliance.

Way.

Less.

Effort.

Thanks for the valuable input.

OrangeTheCat

Necrelios wrote: »

We need more gold sinks other than stockpiling mats for the next major update. What we need is some way for guild traders to flaunt their wealth. Where is the flaunting?! Having stuff to spend gold on would make it more worthwhile IMHO.

They spend their money on the three traders (in AD) that are worth anything - the ones in one city - Rawl'kha. All of the other traders are pretty much worthless.

Thanks for this "great" trading system ZOS.

RoyalPink06

I feel bad for them too, especially the ones who bust their a$$es only to have the fruits of their efforts start to fail after so long because of inactive players and those who don't donate (can't, or won't?). On the other hand, would you want to be part of a guild where the guildmaster is laissez-faire and doesn't put in the effort that would make the most of the guild?

I'm part of a rather large one that's been around forever, pretty well known around PSA NA DC, and the guildmaster just recently stepped down and gave it away to someone else. I really liked the guildmaster too and I'm sad for the change (to be fair though I have not spoken to him since then to find out the reason for the change). Not sure if i'll stay. But bids are getting outrageous (for prime real estate anyway), and even if you have 500 members, if only 50 ever contribute, its just not gonna happen and that's unfortunate. I guess a guild can only be as effective as its collective members.

On guilds and trading in general though, this is my first MMO so I'm not familiar with other games' guild and trading systems, but it sure seems like a universal access point to all listings from all guilds and more specific search parameters would make a huge difference. There was one time where it took me like 5 hours to find 3 damn Willpower pieces. I was literally falling asleep while scrolling through pages and pages of items.

Soresina

Whilst people may not disagree there is obviously a lot of thought that has been applied to this economy, and like it or not, blind bidding on the guild traders has its place. As one who is part of the process and goes through that stress every guild store changeover I can honestly say that I wouldn't change anything.

The separate guild stores encourage a more competitive market and therefore cheaper prices all round. Yes there are items that are priced high but that is true in any economy real or simulated. Having the option to shop elsewhere makes it hard for prices to be pushed up to ridiculous amounts that make it outside the reach of the average player as happens in other games quite frequently, particularly with the dropped armour and weapons.

Unlike in other games, new players can start selling some of the higher priced items from the moment they hit Tamriel such as Perfect Roe from fishing, tempers and the such from refining. Whilst some items are gated by level such as nirncrux, pledge drops and the level assigned to armour and weapons on pickup, the vast majority of items are available early on in the game, especially if you take the time to level the crafts and with help that is not such a great investment of time.
It is this system that made me able to earn the money to buy up my bank and inventory space much quicker than in any other game. It also makes it possible for casual players to have the money to buy goods that would normally be out of their reach in other games.

Overall I give ESO a thumbs up for their managing of the economy. That will not stop me bitching when drop rates are nerfed because there is too much of a particular item available because I know this is being done to increase the prices when they have dropped too low. The opposite also happens when the prices are too high so it balances out in the end. What it means is that prices are kept within the reach of the majority rather than the minority as happens in most other games. The only thing I want is a better interface in the guild store, everything else can stay the same. And this most particularly includes stressing me out once a week whilst I have to wait to see if I have a guild store.

Okay enough forum participation - the game is finally patching smiley:

Conquistador

RoyalPink06 wrote: »

I feel bad for them too, especially the ones who bust their a$$es only to have the fruits of their efforts start to fail after so long because of inactive players and those who don't donate (can't, or won't?). On the other hand, would you want to be part of a guild where the guildmaster is laissez-faire and doesn't put in the effort that would make the most of the guild?

I'm part of a rather large one that's been around forever, pretty well known around PSA NA DC, and the guildmaster just recently stepped down and gave it away to someone else. I really liked the guildmaster too and I'm sad for the change (to be fair though I have not spoken to him since then to find out the reason for the change). Not sure if i'll stay. But bids are getting outrageous (for prime real estate anyway), and even if you have 500 members, if only 50 ever contribute, its just not gonna happen and that's unfortunate. I guess a guild can only be as effective as its collective members.

On guilds and trading in general though, this is my first MMO so I'm not familiar with other games' guild and trading systems, but it sure seems like a universal access point to all listings from all guilds and more specific search parameters would make a huge difference. There was one time where it took me like 5 hours to find 3 damn Willpower pieces. I was literally falling asleep while scrolling through pages and pages of items.

This is the kind of thing that makes players quit the game. At what point does one thing become too exhausting? Well, there it is.

OrangeTheCat

RoyalPink06 wrote: »

I feel bad for them too, especially the ones who bust their a$$es only to have the fruits of their efforts start to fail after so long because of inactive players and those who don't donate (can't, or won't?). On the other hand, would you want to be part of a guild where the guildmaster is laissez-faire and doesn't put in the effort that would make the most of the guild?

snip

I would rather that there would not need to be any trading guilds AT ALL.

GarnetFire17

code65536 wrote: »

You get used to it. That said, there are things I'd improve if I had dictatorial powers at ZOS.

A bid system where you only pay enough to outbid the competition instead of the full amount you bid would relieve a lot of stress and guesswork.

A better way to manage guild finances would be nice, too. A seller currently loses 8% of a sale. 1% to listing fees (gold sink), and 7% to the "House Cut". What most people don't realizes is that only half of that 7% goes to the guild. The other 3.5% goes to ZOS and is another gold sink. This is why trade guilds need raffles and donations, because a 3.5% sales tax is not nearly enough for the weekly bids.

Let us set our own tax rates. This way, guilds in premium spots can charge high taxes, and guilds out in the wilderness can charge much lower taxes. Soooo much of the work of managing a trade guild is rounding up the funds for the weekly bid. Letting us set a tax rate that's self-sustainable would eliminate the need for raffles, donations, weekly dues or whatever other schemes guilds have to use to keep afloat. And it gives the sellers a more meaningful choice. A seller in Rawl'kha would likely have to pay much higher taxes, but they'll reach a much larger customer base. It's also more equitable: the people who benefit the most from a good trader location are also the ones paying the most to help keep that.

Oh, and 30 shelf spots are way too low. How about letting people rent more shelf space? The funds from that can go to the guild. The sellers who benefit the most from the guild can now list more items and support the guild's bids at the same time.

The big guilds don't need any help in generating more money for themselves imo.

GarnetFire17

OrangeTheCat wrote: »

RoyalPink06 wrote: »

I feel bad for them too, especially the ones who bust their a$$es only to have the fruits of their efforts start to fail after so long because of inactive players and those who don't donate (can't, or won't?). On the other hand, would you want to be part of a guild where the guildmaster is laissez-faire and doesn't put in the effort that would make the most of the guild?

snip

I would rather that there would not need to be any trading guilds AT ALL.

well you could ignore them. then it's like they aren't there at all.

GarnetFire17

I think the root of the problem comes from looking for certain pieces of set gear. maybe the compromise is to have an universial gear store only for gear. If you wan to enhance that gear you still either need to farm and refine and craft yourself, or buy the mats from a guild store and have someone do it for you. Really, the could get rid of the guild stores and not have any trading or anything like that and make you...gasp...farm, or hope you get a lucky drop.

Necrelios

OrangeTheCat wrote: »

Necrelios wrote: »

We need more gold sinks other than stockpiling mats for the next major update. What we need is some way for guild traders to flaunt their wealth. Where is the flaunting?! Having stuff to spend gold on would make it more worthwhile IMHO.

They spend their money on the three traders (in AD) that are worth anything - the ones in one city - Rawl'kha. All of the other traders are pretty much worthless.

Thanks for this "great" trading system ZOS.

MHmm... that's some fine flaunting . Not really.

Anslay

It is a lot of work, but I really enjoy the guild and the sense of community that it has brought to the game for myself and I hear this echoed by many others. A strong team of officers to split the responsibilities and a great community make all the difference.

There are some aspects that are less than ideal and many guild leaders have made quality of life requests of ZOS that would help more than just trade guild leaders. For now and to make it a bit easier, myself and others have invested the effort to code addons to help manage the guild and automate the raffles, etc. It's still daily work, but the GMs/officers that want to play, find time to do such. For some, this is how they play and the aspect of the game they enjoy.