The "magicka vs stamina" thing

Browiseth

I wasn't really sure what to title this, since it's such a huge subject, but we'll just go with that for now.

So. Magicka vs stamina. It's a pretty big topic for the community of this game, and ZoS is definitely taking steps to appease both ends of the spectrum. The ultimate goal seeming to be to make both styles of DPS'ing equally viable in every way.

And I seriously mean every way. We have the Law of Julianos set as hard proof of this, and while I don't explicitly have an issue with the design of this gear set, I do take issue with the design mentality.
We can see it happening right now; Vicious Death is (I assume) a powerful set, and many want a stamina version of it, to which I say; "Why not just go magicka and build around vicious death?"

Actually, real quick I need to get this out of the way; Please don't make a stamina version of Vicious Death, ZoS.

Anyway, the ultimate issue with a stamina vicious death is (I hope) obvious. What's the point? If you want to use vicious death, build your character around it! This sort of mentality is something I've seen far too many ESO players suggest, and it's...Selfish. Let's take a step back to Julianos. Before Orsinium came out, Hundings Rage was (as far as I'm aware) the only gearset to provide such a large and easy boost to a damage stat. Magicka players saw this and said; "Players with different playstyles have a different benefit to my own platstyle's? I want it too! I want all the advantages!" or something along those lines.

Please don't misunderstand me for trying to insult Magicka players by the way, because the entire point of this thread is to ultimately rant on stamina things. I dislike everything equally, you see. I also don't really have an issue with Law of Julianos either, as it's a simple concept for a gear set that doesn't do anything too rediculous for its' user, I more so just roll my eyes at the mentality behind the design.

So I suppose in conclusion of this rant, I want to turn it into something of a plea. Please, ZoS, (and ESO community) turn away from designing the game around the magicka vs stamina debate, as its starting to feel like a "rich get richer" situation. Focus on more important things, like tanking, making these countless pointless abilities in the game worth using, and make crystal blast stamina pretty please with a cherry on top.

Apherius

Browiseth wrote: »

and make crystal blast stamina pretty please with a cherry on top.

yeah , pleeaaaasssssse

khele23eb17_ESO

Balancing shouldnt be about: Greens have X, Blues should have X too.
Its about: Greens have X and Blues dont, but are Greens more effective because of it? Maybe not because Blues already have Y which Greens dont. If so, Blues dont need X.

Danksta

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

Balancing shouldnt be about: Greens have X, Blues should have X too.
Its about: Greens have X and Blues dont, but are Greens more effective because of it? Maybe not because Blues already have Y which Greens dont. If so, Blues dont need X.

Exactly! The majority of players (or at least the loudest ones) seem to think that because these guys have this that they need it too. When they should just be asking for a counter or something different to get their class (or in this case Mag/Stam) on par with the others. If the community was balancing this game all classes (and variations of those classes) would have the same skills, they'd just look different and have different names.

phreatophile

I don't want Stamina VD

I would like there to be fewer ways to NOT regenerate stamina.

It gets shut off while sneaking, sprinting, blocking. If magicka users lost regen tics for a good portion of the things they use magicka for, they'd be pretty upset, too.

Forestd16b14_ESO

OR and try to follow me here...... Screw your DPS both magicka and stamina and buff and balance tank and healers already.

Katahdin

They better do something because as it stands there is almost no reason to be stamina right now. Might as well have everyone go magicka and whomever can get VD and/or prox det off first wins.

phreatophile

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

OR and try to follow me here...... Screw your DPS both magicka and stamina and buff and balance tank and healers already.

Yes, please! Fixing stupid blocking stamina regen nerf would be great for tanks.

Nestor

The Julianos set was a long time coming, we needed it. And, contrary to what I say below, brought some parity to the magic users with regards to the stamina users. This coming from PvE play on both types, not PvP.

I do think balance should be the overall capabilities of the one type of character should be close to the same as another type, but done in different ways. Like one has great initial burst, but DPS falls off after that, others have steady DPS but not so much defense, others have good defense, but not so much DPS. I am not sure that is possible with the current Meta of All Magic or All Stamina. It was more so back when we had Soft Caps and could run Hybrid Builds.

Now, we are pretty much forced to go all in on one Resource or the other. That really complicates balance. For a while, Magic was the way to go and Stamina was the Redheaded step child and only iconoclasts went Stamina. Then Stamina became the top of the heap, and Magic Suffered, now its back to magic.

I say bring back the Soft Caps, then we can build a character the way we want to, and be competitive with various styles of play. It could also make balance something easier to achieve as they would not have to come up with well intentioned sets and skills that end up being used in combos that give way more damage than intended. Soft Caps would go along way to mitigate the excesses of anyone build. Just my thoughts on the matter.

Resipsa131

Magicka users had Kagnaracs prior to Orsimium it was the hundings rage for magicka users.

idk

not sure where to start. So I won't.

Nestor

Resipsa131 wrote: »

Magicka users had Kagnaracs prior to Orsimium it was the hundings rage for magicka users.

Being an 8 Trait Set, it was not the Hundings Rage of Magic sets. Yes, the stats were helpful to a magic character, but it takes a long time to get to 8 traits, where it takes much less time to get to 6 traits. It is also ironic that it is locked behind finishing the FG Quest line, where it should have been one of the Eveya set stations.

whiteshadow711jppreub18_ESO

I think they should make set's now that work off both Stam and Magicka,

They have already started doing it,

Lets look at the Clever alchemist set,

(2 Items) Adds 1064 Maximum Health
(3 Items) Adds 1064 Maximum Health
(4 Items) Adds 129 Spell Damage / Weapon Damage
(5 Items) When you drink a potion you feel a rush of energy, gaining 638 Weapon and Spell Damage for 15 seconds.

They could start doing something along these lines, (the one below is just an Example, OK people...)

the "Sneaky Paragon" set (made up name)
(2 Items) Adds 967 Maximum Stamina / Adds 967 Maximum Magicka or Adds 129 Stam recovery/adds 129 Magicka recovery.
(3 Items) Adds 688 Spell Critical/ Weapon Critical
(4 Items) Adds 129 Spell Damage / Weapon Damage
(5 Items) Whatever the special ability is.. and or it scales off the highest Attribute (like a Ultimate, if needed) or kinda what the Clever alchemist has with weapon and spell damage.

This could be a little OP at first so they would have to balance it out a little bit (probably lower the amount of attribute Health/Stam/Magicka amount from the points we get, or Champion points, etc.) or lower the Amount of Attribute amounts the set gives you but then it would also help Hybrid characters as well, they could take advantage of both Attributes and the recovery on both sides..

Now you could just Stack Magicka or Stamina and still take advantage of it, and you will get a little bit more of a Attribute, for example More Magicka on a Stamina Character, so a Nightblade could use cloak a bit more and it works the other way, a Magicka Character would have a little bit more Stamina for break free and sneaking if needed.

Now on Hybrid characters it helps, as well as it would for Tank characters to have more of Both Attributes.

ABILITY MORPH'S

Now on to Morph's from Magicka and Stamina for class skills, this is the Change I initially thought would take place when I first heard of Magicka and Stamina morphs that ZOS was making, not what we got.

We should be able to to morph each ability to either Magicka or Stamina, it should include a box that when we morph an ability, then we can pick and choose what we want.

So for example, you want Concealed Weapon (Morph of Veiled Strike, in the Shadow Line of the Nightblade Class) when you tick the Magicka Box it runs off of Magicka and scales off of Spell damage, if you tick the Stamina Box it runs off of Stamina and scales off of weapon damage and you will still get the Sneak speed that that ability provides.

All class Abilities could be like this, weapon abilities should remain the same at this point (or until someone comes up with a better Idea)

Same thing for other Abilities. This would make peoples builds so vastly different when comparing other peoples, you could change a execute either way, from spell damage to weapon damage by respecc'ing.

Looking toward the Future,

Spell Crafting, I know people want this, hell I want this but if it only runs off Magicka it will be a Balancing Nightmare (probably the reason it's not being worked on at this Time..) well if ZOS had this system in place, OMG it could be done and it would work.

This means that a Stamina build or a Hybrid could take advantage of this, that when you made the spell that you could choose what it ran off of, as would Magicka builds.

Eventually this is what I hope changes for the game, the abilities could be balanced more and the classes could have way more choices and could be balanced. This would give so much more freedom for players and such a wide array of class ability choices.

what do others say??

Refuse2GrowUp

I am pretty tired of the magicka vs stamina debates and all the whining on both sides of the house. I try to have an unbiased opinion on everything, and it helps because I play both a magicka and stamina of each class and I am both an avid PvE and PvPer.

Simply, you cannot compare apples to oranges. Both have their strengths and weaknesses. Yes, magicka has Proxy Det and more ults that benefit from CPs, powerful class heals/shields, and a weapon skill line that grants powerful heals/shields. Stam has massive AoEs like Steelnade - that are also an execute, more choices in terms of weapon skill lines and build diversity, a helm 1pc that grants recovery, a very powerful heal that is universal (i.e. not tied to a class of wpn skill line), and an Ult that boosts all dmg just for having it slotted. The list goes on and on. They do not need the same perks as the other; they are both powerful and capable.

The biggest problem as I see it is that the devs are not giving the stam players enough class morph options. Currently, If you play a Stam toon, especially if a Stam DK or Stam Sorc, you identify as a wpn skill line more so than a class. It would be nice to be a stam Sorc and feel like you are a Sorc, or a DK and feel like you are a DK. However, with this comes the realization that with the current two morph option coding, it will potentially cripple some class builds - take for example the DK whip...Molten is for PvE and Flame Lash is for PvP (conceptually anyway). Ideally, the devs should offer a third morph option with two being their original concept (magicka or stamina) and the third being for the alternative build (for lack of better terms). So again, using the DK whip as an example, the devs would keep the current two magicka morphs but offer a third morph which would be stamina. However the devs decide to implement, simply stamina users should be able to better feel they are playing a class instead of playing a skill line.

I will also throw in that I still believe there should be separate profiles for PvE and PvP. And by this I mean that the devs should be able to change skills and mechanics for PvP without effecting PvE, and visa versa. I believe this is the ONLY way the devs will ever truly be able to balance the game. Furthermore, it gives us players the option of choosing separate morphs for each (i.e. I want Molten Whip for PvE and Flame Lash in PvP)

Just my 2 cents~

templesus

Don't worry guys, stam getting a morph of reverse slice to do more against zergs! Problem solved!

acw37162

Yeah, um, well, umm, yeah.....

That's about it then.

Strider_Roshin

Magicka users want all the advantages of stamina while bearing none of the disadvantages. For example it used to be stamina hits harder, but magicka has better healing and survivability with damage shields, and both magicka and stamina had great resource management.

Now magicka pumps out more damage than stamina, has a ton better resource management, and still has better heals and survivability with damage shields.

mdylan2013

phreatophile wrote: »

I don't want Stamina VD

I would like there to be fewer ways to NOT regenerate stamina.

It gets shut off while sneaking, sprinting, blocking. If magicka users lost regen tics for a good portion of the things they use magicka for, they'd be pretty upset, too.

Magicka users use all those things too... We just don't have as much stamina available to make the most out of them like stamina users would have.

On the topic as a whole though I kinda agree with the OP. I do think that there needs to be some things that stam users will excel at whilst there should be some things that magicka users excel at.

Lynx7386

Ideally, hybridizing between both resources should yield the best outcome, but with how passives and sets in this game work hybrids have become completely obsolete.

Tonnopesce

I'm somehow sadisfied with the current Mag-vs- Stam situation the only classes that need some love are still Templars and Sorcerers especially for the passives.

With my Stamplar i've managed even to morph my dogeroll into a badass 7k ground attack tanks to the Eternal Hunt set.
Dogeroll is not a waste of stamina no more.

SanTii.92

I think the disparity problem is deeper than just itemization. While the proper dmge type scaling with next patch will help substantially it will not be enough, because there is a systemic issue underneath. It makes no sense that range dps output surpass melee ones, it shouldn't even be equal. Simply because it's inherently safer. There are no mechanics that punish range over melee, none whatsoever. But the contrary is pretty common, just look at Wgt. It's immensely harder, if not plain impossible to equal the dps from a range character in fights like the Elite Guard, Inhibitor or Kena. You are forced out of melee too often.

In my opinion, something like 10% extra dmge from the back should be implemented. Something along that line to justify the risk that implies being on melee range.

SanTii.92

Refuse2GrowUp wrote: »

Simply, you cannot compare apples to oranges. Both have their strengths and weaknesses. Yes, magicka has Proxy Det and more ults that benefit from CPs, powerful class heals/shields, and a weapon skill line that grants powerful heals/shields. Stam has massive AoEs like Steelnade - that are also an execute, more choices in terms of weapon skill lines and build diversity, a helm 1pc that grants recovery, a very powerful heal that is universal (i.e. not tied to a class of wpn skill line), and an Ult that boosts all dmg just for having it slotted. The list goes on and on. They do not need the same perks as the other; they are both powerful and capable.

Just my 2 cents~

Objectivly, there isn't a single advantage that stam dps has over magicka ones. Talking strictly about a Pve Perspective. You could make a case that stam has better Aoe but even then it's marginal and sometimes just not true. Compare these combos from nightblades. A stamina one would cast buffs: relentless focus, siphoning attacks, camo hunter. Place caltrops, cast arrow barrage, trap beast, shooting star and proceed to spam steel tornado: 45k to 60k dps depending on the trash pack.
A magicka nightblade. Would cast buffs: merciless resolve, siphoning attacks, proxy det. Places twisting path, blockade, shooting star and sap essence spam. pretty much the same dps. Plus some extra utility from sap essence heals.

So I question, what is that stamina chars do better than magicka? Why would you roll one

Refuse2GrowUp

sAnn92 wrote: »

Refuse2GrowUp wrote: »

Simply, you cannot compare apples to oranges. Both have their strengths and weaknesses. Yes, magicka has Proxy Det and more ults that benefit from CPs, powerful class heals/shields, and a weapon skill line that grants powerful heals/shields. Stam has massive AoEs like Steelnade - that are also an execute, more choices in terms of weapon skill lines and build diversity, a helm 1pc that grants recovery, a very powerful heal that is universal (i.e. not tied to a class of wpn skill line), and an Ult that boosts all dmg just for having it slotted. The list goes on and on. They do not need the same perks as the other; they are both powerful and capable.

Just my 2 cents~

Objectivly, there isn't a single advantage that stam dps has over magicka ones. Talking strictly about a Pve Perspective. You could make a case that stam has better Aoe but even then it's marginal and sometimes just not true. Compare these combos from nightblades. A stamina one would cast buffs: relentless focus, siphoning attacks, camo hunter. Place caltrops, cast arrow barrage, trap beast, shooting star and proceed to spam steel tornado: 45k to 60k dps depending on the trash pack.
A magicka nightblade. Would cast buffs: merciless resolve, siphoning attacks, proxy det. Places twisting path, blockade, shooting star and sap essence spam. pretty much the same dps. Plus some extra utility from sap essence heals.

So I question, what is that stamina chars do better than magicka? Why would you roll one

Are you speaking strictly from a PvE perspective?

Most of the stam vs mag arguments are more focused on PvP, as that is where class, build, skill, and mechanical differences really get highlighted. That is also the community from which most of the complaining comes from. Therefore my comments are more directed towards PvP.

Before commenting on PvE, i must caveat that I am a console player. Therefore we do not have DPS parses and a lot of the add-ons that provide a significant amount of information that PC players have at their disposal to truly evaluate the statements I am about to make. Our only way of comparing DPS is with an unassisted Blood Spawn test...tank holds Blood Spawn in place and does minimal taunting to keep aggro and maintain fracture; tank cannot hit any synergies or do any DPS other than minimal puncture. Healer may be there but only to heal; no synergies and no buffs such as SPC. So, with that said, we have some phenomenal players that are sub one-minute fights on stamina builds, which rivals our best magicka players. Stam AoEs are better. And although, generally speaking, stam toons do seem to fall behind magicka ones in PvE, there are those players who can do just as well, if not better, with stamina toons in PvE vs their magicka counterparts. I will also point out that many of the fastest boss kill videos are werewolf packs that have amazing burst...something a magicka toon will never compete with.

SanTii.92

Refuse2GrowUp wrote: »

sAnn92 wrote: »

Refuse2GrowUp wrote: »

Simply, you cannot compare apples to oranges. Both have their strengths and weaknesses. Yes, magicka has Proxy Det and more ults that benefit from CPs, powerful class heals/shields, and a weapon skill line that grants powerful heals/shields. Stam has massive AoEs like Steelnade - that are also an execute, more choices in terms of weapon skill lines and build diversity, a helm 1pc that grants recovery, a very powerful heal that is universal (i.e. not tied to a class of wpn skill line), and an Ult that boosts all dmg just for having it slotted. The list goes on and on. They do not need the same perks as the other; they are both powerful and capable.

Just my 2 cents~

Objectivly, there isn't a single advantage that stam dps has over magicka ones. Talking strictly about a Pve Perspective. You could make a case that stam has better Aoe but even then it's marginal and sometimes just not true. Compare these combos from nightblades. A stamina one would cast buffs: relentless focus, siphoning attacks, camo hunter. Place caltrops, cast arrow barrage, trap beast, shooting star and proceed to spam steel tornado: 45k to 60k dps depending on the trash pack.
A magicka nightblade. Would cast buffs: merciless resolve, siphoning attacks, proxy det. Places twisting path, blockade, shooting star and sap essence spam. pretty much the same dps. Plus some extra utility from sap essence heals.

So I question, what is that stamina chars do better than magicka? Why would you roll one

Are you speaking strictly from a PvE perspective?

Most of the stam vs mag arguments are more focused on PvP, as that is where class, build, skill, and mechanical differences really get highlighted. That is also the community from which most of the complaining comes from. Therefore my comments are more directed towards PvP.

Before commenting on PvE, i must caveat that I am a console player. Therefore we do not have DPS parses and a lot of the add-ons that provide a significant amount of information that PC players have at their disposal to truly evaluate the statements I am about to make. Our only way of comparing DPS is with an unassisted Blood Spawn test...tank holds Blood Spawn in place and does minimal taunting to keep aggro and maintain fracture; tank cannot hit any synergies or do any DPS other than minimal puncture. Healer may be there but only to heal; no synergies and no buffs such as SPC. So, with that said, we have some phenomenal players that are sub one-minute fights on stamina builds, which rivals our best magicka players. Stam AoEs are better. And although, generally speaking, stam toons do seem to fall behind magicka ones in PvE, there are those players who can do just as well, if not better, with stamina toons in PvE vs their magicka counterparts. I will also point out that many of the fastest boss kill videos are werewolf packs that have amazing burst...something a magicka toon will never compete with.

I'm not saying Stam dps is dead and they are worthless, not by any chance. But what I want to point out, and I think it's the root of most problems regarding mag vs stamina, is that magicka dps being ranged are substantially safer while offering no drawbacks campared to stamina, melee ones. And what's more astonishing is that even on ideal conditions magicka dps will output stamina most of the times.

Let's take Wgt as an example.
Elite guard: the amount of consistent melee aoe dps these guys have is extremely annoying for a stamina character. It's impossible to compete here.
Inhibitor: You just can't dps while in blue phase
Kena: Immensely harder to keep the dps while avoiding lighting walls, especially on hard mode, compared to a ranged character.

Could you point me out a single fight where a melee dps has any type of advantage over a range one? I've just found 3 in a single dungeon.

Melee should always output range on a static target. Simply because will always involve more risk. When this is granted, we would add fights that are easier at range and some that are easier at melee. This is balance. Both of these interactions doesn't occur currently. And both of them are detrimental to stamina, melee characters.

AddictionX

So to sum up this thread...



Magicka > Stamina

SanTii.92

AddictionX wrote: »

So to sum up this thread...



Magicka > Stamina

come on man, I typed a lot. But yea..

Cinbri

for duels Stamina > Magicka.
Fact that VD set works so great for NBs not making magicka any better...hm, or maybe it does since everyone rolled nbs and cyro nowfays is just army of cloned nbs.

M_TeK_9

Melee and physical abilities should be using something different than stamina. As stamina is required by all classes for breakout etc, it's clearly unfair to to restrict the regeneration which obviously affects one more than the other.

Have stamina for running, blocking, breakout, sneak etc but have physical abilities use a this resource called power. It would solve everything