Official Discussion Thread for "Meet Your New Assistants"

UrQuan

Giraffon wrote: »

A story problem!

Test group of 400 players:

10% is 40, so 40 people in the test group would purchase at 5000 crowns = 200,000 in crown sales
30% is 120, so 120 people in the test group would purchase at 2000 crowns = 240,000 in crown sales.

Price lower make more!

Funny you should pick those numbers... It's almost like you were checking out this poll:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/256386/at-5000-crowns-each-will-you-buy-the-new-assistants/p1
that shows only 10% of the over 400 people responding are willing to buy assistants at a price of 5000 Crowns.

NolaArch

I logged in earlier to get the assistants. Saw the price was per assistant. Promptly logged out, and saved my money.

Rizzai

This is all fine and good, but until you can tell me what ZOS's financial requirements are, we're all talking funny money, and yes, I get that more sales = more money, but you also get what you pay for.

If ZOS were to go the "Free To Play" route, and made everything a REQUIRED micro transaction just to play most of the content like have happened in so many other MMO's, it ruins it because you go for the low end, and in the short term yes, you, (in this case ZOS) makes a good deal of money, and if you're in it just for a quick buck, that makes sense, however, if you want long term loyal customers, you go more the route of the subbed model.

What they are doing is rather different in that you "pay to play" so at least you have people invested in your game enough that they actually aren't just "fly by night" game of the week casual gamers that never stay in one place long, and never really make you any money, and yes, ZOS still needs to pay the bills, regardless of how we think they can do this or should do that.

Going somewhere in-between, we have a cash shop AND are required to buy something, this is where the problem begins.

NO GAME is bug free, nothing online is, but sure, you may say this product is better than that, fine, go play the one you like!

What I don't get, is often the people who cry the loudest AREN'T INTERESTED IN BUYING ANYWAY.

So as a person who works selling things for a living, first off the LAST thing you do is worry about the loudest complainers.

Sure, if the majority thought 1,000 crowns was the best price and ZOS did that, and yet then could not pay the bills, would it be better?

No, because then the game would end if it's too cheap and they cannot pay their expenses!

Personally, I really wish they would go with the most successful of models which is a purely subbed game, and I have been playing these kinds of games for over 20 years, it's MUCH better for developers to be able to have a stable amount coming in that they can count on instead of a fickle volatile market such as we have now where you have so many whiners who aren't buyers anyway.

Henry Ford didn't make a revolutionary product because he gave everyone what ever they wanted, he made a good product ONE WAY that everyone could afford, asking all these payment options, getting them, and then complaining about prices for items you're not prepared to buy anyway, is like saying "But I wanted a Model T in Pink!"

It's a good thing Henry Ford didn't listen to those kind of people, and I really hope ZOS isn't to moved by the loudest whiners, it's already caused enough grief using the crown store model instead of a subbed anyway, and you never please everyone, and I for one, have been paying for this game since early release (I would have if I could have done the beta too) and I will continue.

This is one of the best MMO's and beloved IP's in gaming much lest Online Gaming, and if you don't like the game, please go do something else since you say this one is so terrible, and let those who enjoy it do just that in peace!

UrQuan

Rizzai wrote: »

Sure, if the majority thought 1,000 crowns was the best price and ZOS did that, and yet then could not pay the bills, would it be better?

No, because then the game would end if it's too cheap and they cannot pay their expenses!

You're not looking at this from the point of view of an electronic product.

It's not like a traditional product or service where there's a cost associated with each discrete sale. If the majority of people thought $1,000 was the best price for a truck and Ford decided to listen to them and price their trucks at $1,000, then they'd go out of business because the price people are paying isn't enough to cover the cost per unit of producing and delivering those trucks and there's no profit.

With an electronic product you've got a fixed cost to produce it once regardless of the number of units sold. So say (using totally imaginary numbers here) it costs ZOS $5,000 to produce a certain crown store item. If they price it so that it costs the equivalent of $25 in crowns, then they need to sell 200 to break even, and every sale beyond that is profit (some of which will obviously go back to pay for the ongoing static costs of keeping the game running - note that those costs are effectively a constant as they are unaffected by how many of the crown store item are sold). If they price the same item at the equivalent of $10 in crowns, then they need to sell 500 to break even, and every sale beyond that is profit.

Now let's assume that there are 5,000 players who might potentially buy the item. Priced at $25 only 10% of them will buy it, so the income from the item is $12,500, less the $5,000 cost of producing it, for a profit of $7,500. If it was priced at $10 then 30% of them will buy it, so the income for the item is $15,000, less the $5,000 cost of producing it, for a profit of $10,000.

CMz

LearnThis wrote: »

So... I have asked this before, but what value does this place on ESO's DLC when re-skins and add-ons cost more than the actual DLC? Did someone come up with the entire DLC in a week so ZOS was like, "It is worth $20." Then, someone else spent the past year deciding what color the re-skin should be so ZOS said, "That should cost $40 and be a limited time offer."

I am truly baffled at this. ZOS releases an entire new story and it costs less than some guy that pops up and will hold your items. For those of you that can remember, right now I am picturing the Grey Poupon commerical and some guy popping up and asking to hold my items.

I do not understand. Am I supposed to understand? Is this supposed to make sense? Is this some reverse psychology marketing? Should my clothing store start selling my ties for $320 and my suits for $50? Would they stay in business?

WHY IS THIS SO CONFUSING?!

Razor and blades; a tried and true model. Pricing; watching the forum and chat they may have over charged for the first set of blades. The pricing will come down; and hopefully, the scope of services these assistants provide will be expanded over time.

Tommy1979AtWar

After grinding through the TG questline to check out the smuggler assistant I found her to be equally as pointless, a 35% cut is extornionate, 10% I could live with and would seem fair to save me the 3 minute trip but I'll stick to using a wayshrine on principle, I got her free with the dlc for 2000 crowns so no harm no foul but I don't see the justification for asking 5000 crowns per "banker" or "merchant" assistant, the banker assistant is as useful as the one in the theives guild which isn't very as even that one has no guild bank or store access so with such limited funcionality you'd have to be a bit of a tool to buy one tbh.

Rizzai

I get it, I really do, however, I find that if you actually subscribe to the game, all of these "over priced items" really are a non-issue. I rarely spend crowns, and I bought the banker (purely convenience) because I do a ton of crafting, but I could easily have afforded the vendor too, but it wouldn't make much sense for me because I don't see much advantage over current bouncing of mail, especially since the vendor doesn't repair or sell repair kits (which makes perfect sense, as this would take away from any need for repair kits).

The reason for the crown store is to give more people options, and if you are only interested in the basic vanilla game, you can be very happy with that model, however, yes, if you want to do most things that a sub would allow, and don't understand that it will always cost more up-front through a cash shop, then maybe you really should think about subscribing or realizing this fact.

This is the same reason buying each part of a car over a long period of time and assembling it would end up costing FAR MORE than just buying it up front, or buying anything on credit VS saving up and just buying it.

Imagine buying a computer that is already built with everything on it from the start, sure, you pay more up-front, but your "bargain PC" really isn't if you then have to up-grade it most every year just to do what you're wanting to do since your margin of performance was so slim vs cost, and in the end you pay more for your "bargain".

I build and sell electric vehicles, and a good one is not cheap, however, you can of course buy different price points of vehicles, but $ per $, you ALWAYS get more for your money if you get something that is more than you think you're going to need, because it will never be over-stressed like the "cheaper" model that CAN do the same work, but will wear-out much sooner.

Much is the same principal here, if you cannot afford a sub, just understand that you're not going to be able to do as much as those who pay more, however, I still say, as long as it is not a huge advantage (imagine if extra bank space were ONLY available in the crown store, or XP items, or extra character slots, etc.) granted by crowns only, let them sell what they believe will make ends meet.

UrQuan

Rizzai wrote: »

I get it, I really do, however, I find that if you actually subscribe to the game, all of these "over priced items" really are a non-issue. I rarely spend crowns, and I bought the banker (purely convenience) because I do a ton of crafting, but I could easily have afforded the vendor too, but it wouldn't make much sense for me because I don't see much advantage over current bouncing of mail, especially since the vendor doesn't repair or sell repair kits (which makes perfect sense, as this would take away from any need for repair kits).

I'm a subscriber (2 years of subscription with no break) and at the moment I'm sitting on just over 24,000 crowns (picked some up when they were on sale, plus I had a whole bunch from my sub). I can very easily afford to buy both of the assistants. That doesn't make the over-priced items a non-issue. They're an issue because they're actively bad for the long-term health of the game. The price point doesn't make sense from the point of view of maximizing ZOS's profits, and it doesn't make sense from the point of view of player satisfaction.

It doesn't have to be priced low enough that everyone will buy it (that can be just as bad as having it over-priced), but it has to be priced at a point where a majority of people will look at it and seriously consider buying it - and then have a majority of those people decide that it's worth it. Having it priced so that roughly 1/3-1/2 of the active player base buys it would likely be the sweet spot.

Lolssi

Was waiting for the banker and saving my 3600 crowns but won't be getting it with that price. 5000 is more expensive than two actual content dlcs! I'll rather just keep wayshrining my ass to town after couple of quests like before. Just my two cents.

Septimus_Magna

What ZOS imagined with these ridiculous prices.

anitajoneb17_ESO

UrQuan wrote: »

That doesn't make the over-priced items a non-issue. They're an issue because they're actively bad for the long-term health of the game. The price point doesn't make sense from the point of view of maximizing ZOS's profits, and it doesn't make sense from the point of view of player satisfaction.

It doesn't have to be priced low enough that everyone will buy it (that can be just as bad as having it over-priced), but it has to be priced at a point where a majority of people will look at it and seriously consider buying it - and then have a majority of those people decide that it's worth it. Having it priced so that roughly 1/3-1/2 of the active player base buys it would likely be the sweet spot.

Those are YOUR conclusions based on YOUR assumptions and YOUR vision.
Do you really think ZOS people are stupid ? Do you think you know better than them what is good for the game ?
They have figures that you don't have : player profiles, type of crown store expenditures, etc. , when you don't even have a clue how many people play the game, how long, and with what expectations.
And yes MAYBE they could make more money short-term by pricing the assistants lower, in the short term, but MAYBE they prefer to keep it more "exclusive" in order to not have everyone running around with them and not have city hubs deserted. That would be a long-term vision.
And MAYBE they could make the assistants more attractive by expanding their functionalities, that would make them sell more in the short-term, but MAYBE they are really careful to keep their promises that crown store items would never be as useful/efficient as ingame items, so that the game never becomes P2W ?

Believe me, ZOS has balanced everything out before deciding on their pricing, considering far more aspects of it than you, and using reliable data that you don't have.

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO

There are a ton of these I see in the game. So looks like ZOS was pretty smart as far as pricing.

UrQuan

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

That doesn't make the over-priced items a non-issue. They're an issue because they're actively bad for the long-term health of the game. The price point doesn't make sense from the point of view of maximizing ZOS's profits, and it doesn't make sense from the point of view of player satisfaction.

It doesn't have to be priced low enough that everyone will buy it (that can be just as bad as having it over-priced), but it has to be priced at a point where a majority of people will look at it and seriously consider buying it - and then have a majority of those people decide that it's worth it. Having it priced so that roughly 1/3-1/2 of the active player base buys it would likely be the sweet spot.

Those are YOUR conclusions based on YOUR assumptions and YOUR vision.
Do you really think ZOS people are stupid ? Do you think you know better than them what is good for the game ?
They have figures that you don't have : player profiles, type of crown store expenditures, etc. , when you don't even have a clue how many people play the game, how long, and with what expectations.
And yes MAYBE they could make more money short-term by pricing the assistants lower, in the short term, but MAYBE they prefer to keep it more "exclusive" in order to not have everyone running around with them and not have city hubs deserted. That would be a long-term vision.
And MAYBE they could make the assistants more attractive by expanding their functionalities, that would make them sell more in the short-term, but MAYBE they are really careful to keep their promises that crown store items would never be as useful/efficient as ingame items, so that the game never becomes P2W ?

Believe me, ZOS has balanced everything out before deciding on their pricing, considering far more aspects of it than you, and using reliable data that you don't have.

So you think that ZOS intended to price it at a point where only 10% of people are willing to buy it? Somehow I highly doubt that. I think it's far more likely that they didn't put much scientific analysis into what the right price should be, and instead picked a number that felt right to them. An awful lot of companies price things using the old "I feel like it will be best if I price this at X" method.

Turelus

Both purchased, what else was I going to spend all the crowns I got in discount on?

I do agree price is a little stupid, I was expecting something around the level of a high end mount (2500) but whatevs, you need to make your money somewhere and I am sure there are plenty of mugs like me who got them any way.

anitajoneb17_ESO

UrQuan wrote: »

So you think that ZOS intended to price it at a point where only 10% of people are willing to buy it?

You don't actually know about that, it's your guess.

UrQuan wrote: »

I think it's far more likely that they didn't put much scientific analysis into what the right price should be, and instead picked a number that felt right to them. An awful lot of companies price things using the old "I feel like it will be best if I price this at X" method.

I believe the opposite : if there's ONE thing ZOS does extremely carefully, it's the accurate and detailed analysis of their market segment. Furthermore, the family shop next door might have a "feeling-based" pricing policy, but not a company like ZOS with shareholders to account to.

Only things we can say for sure are :
- WE DON'T KNOW how they chose that price.
- Your opinion that this price isn't right IS feeling-based and not fact-based.

martinhpb16_ESO

Too expensive.

martinhpb16_ESO

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

- Your opinion that this price isn't right IS feeling-based and not fact-based.

Nope. Pricing beyond the customer's desire to pay can decrease sales. That's a fact not a feeling.

What a customer is willing to pay is a fact and not a feeling.

anitajoneb17_ESO

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

- Your opinion that this price isn't right IS feeling-based and not fact-based.

Nope. Pricing beyond the customer's desire to pay can decrease sales. That's a fact not a feeling.

What a customer is willing to pay is a fact and not a feeling.

But you have NO CLUE what the customers are willing to pay. All you know for sure is what YOU are willing to pay. Everything else is pure feeling and assumption.

MissBizz

I'm not here to argue about whether the assistants are over-priced or not. They are, but I still bought the banker and enjoy him.

@ZOS_GinaBruno I really think the tooltips need to be made more clear immediately about these assistants. As someone who already knows the limitations, I could pick out the fact that in the tooltip for the banker it only says "personal bank" etc. That's all fine and dandy.. but someone who has no idea about the limitations and takes a quick read will not catch that. I feel that the tool tips need to CLEARLY state the banker offers no guild bank/store access, and the merchant is a shabby merchant who has no wares to sell - and as well failed armor repair class and can't repair your armor. I'm sure you could think of some cute way to say it while being a lot more clear than the tooltips currently are.

These are very expensive - so I definitely feel the buyer needs to be aware of the limitations BEFORE they purchase. There are already people who purchased them and didn't know and now feel ripped off.

Elsonso

UrQuan wrote: »

So you think that ZOS intended to price it at a point where only 10% of people are willing to buy it? Somehow I highly doubt that. I think it's far more likely that they didn't put much scientific analysis into what the right price should be, and instead picked a number that felt right to them. An awful lot of companies price things using the old "I feel like it will be best if I price this at X" method.

I suspect that 10% of the player base buying this might exceed their goals.

They walk a fine line with this one because too many of them will pull people away from cities.

Dober

5k Crowns? For each? Not usable in the sewers? For real? I buy a lot of *** n senseless stuff but this? 5k??? Sorry no I got the 10min to go to Shornhelm n do my business there. Lower the price n I might get it!

nimander99

UrQuan wrote: »

Copied from another thread for the benefit of @Rizzai so that he (or she - I don't know which) can understand the real issue with these prices.

One thing that a lot of people saying things like "Who cares - if it's not worth it to you just don't buy it" are missing is that this isn't just about whether we think the price is too high for us. It's that this price is actively bad for ZOS.

There are generally 3 types of Crown Store purchases, and they need different pricing strategies to be successful.

DLC: These should always be priced significantly lower than the actual amount of effort that goes into creating them would seem to indicate. DLC = content, and content is what's going to keep people playing the game, potentially get new players interested in the game, and potentially draw old players who stopped playing back into the game.

As such, it needs to be at a price point where the majority of players will see the value in it - especially as any group content in the DLC will fail utterly if most of the player base doesn't see the value in getting the DLC, because then anyone who did get it will have trouble finding groups for that content.

Cosmetic items: These should be priced in all ranges. Some cosmetic items should be cheap, some should be moderately priced, and some should be expensive. Cosmetic items are aimed at a different target audience than DLC. Purely cosmetic items automatically have a smaller target audience, as there's always a portion of the player base that only cares about gameplay and not at all about cosmetics. Additionally, different people have different taste in cosmetics, so there will never be a cosmetic item that appeals to everyone who cares about cosmetics.

As such, you want to price some cosmetics (usually ones that look more "common" in the game world - example: the various common horse skins) cheap enough that everyone who cares about cosmetics can look at them and say "yeah sure, at that price I'll get it". You want to price some (usually ones that are a bit less "common" in the game world, and more specialized - example: the various guar skins) moderately so that the smaller subset of people who would be interested in those ones anyway will look at them and say "hmm, that's more expensive than X but not that expensive, and I like it enough to get it at that price". Then you want to price some (usually ones that should be exotic in the game world, and generally ones that people may look at as something extra special or cool - example: the Frostmare mount) expensively as it's going to appeal to a more narrow market of people anyway, and the people who it appeals to are likely to say "that's cool enough that I'm willing to pay more than I normally would for it".

Convenience items: These should never be priced too low (if they're too low they'll generally take away from the base game as people find it way easier to buy these than to play, and then it becomes a game of nothing but tons of micro-transactions), and they should never be priced too high (I'll get into that). Instead they should be priced moderately, or on the low end of expensive.

The target market for convenience items is the entire player base, but you don't want the entire player base using them excessively (particularly if they are consumable). You want people to look at it and say "hmm, that's a pretty good item at that price so I'll buy it" but you don't want people feeling like they have no choice but to buy it, because then the game quickly becomes P2W and people get pissed off and leave. If you price it too high, far far fewer people will buy it and you'll simply make less money. If only 10% of people will buy it at 5,000 Crowns (not a number I pulled out of my ass: in this poll 90% of people have said they won't buy the assistants at 5,000 Crowns), but 30% of people will buy it at 2,000 Crowns then you're simply going to make more money by pricing it at the lower price point.

Additionally, when you price a convenience item at a price that the majority of people see as being far too high, people get pissed off and are more likely to feel like there's an attempt to rip them off (you also see this when cosmetic items are priced particularly high, but as more people are likely to say that they didn't want a particular cosmetic item anyway, the effect is more noticeable with convenience items). This leads to people vowing not to support the company anymore, not to buy anything from the store, etc. Not everyone, naturally, but the more this happens the more customers you lose.

So the bottom line is that when an item like this is priced too high, it's a big deal because it's bad for ZOS and bad for the game in the long-term.

I learned this very lesson selling Moon Sugar, which isn't legal, in high school and college. And I'll tell you what, it stuck and applies to everything in a free market.

I.E Always stress the flip

UrQuan

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

So you think that ZOS intended to price it at a point where only 10% of people are willing to buy it?

You don't actually know about that, it's your guess.

You should really know better than to think I just pulled that number out of nowhere.

LearnThis

I keep checking to see if this price was an April Fool's joke. Guess not.

anitajoneb17_ESO

UrQuan wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

So you think that ZOS intended to price it at a point where only 10% of people are willing to buy it?

You don't actually know about that, it's your guess.

You should really know better than to think I just pulled that number out of nowhere.

Don't tell me this joke of a poll is your basis for believing to know ESO's playerbase ??? LOL !!!!!!

First thing, a forum poll is NOT representative of a group of which 95% do not even visit the forums.
Second thing, the 90% who voted "no" include a variety of reasons - no money, no interest, other priorities, whatever. Nowhere does it ask if people would buy it if it was cheaper. Those 90% even include MY vote : but I wouldn't buy them either if they were priced 100 crowns instead of 5000. And not because the product is bad, I think it's very good, but simply because I made the choice long ago to never buy anything from the crown store besides DLCs, and I stick to that decision. Simple as that.
Third thing, yes, maybe ZOS intended to price it at a point where only 10% of people would be willing to buy it, because they want to keep city hubs ingame busy and not clutter the whole world with everyone's personal banker/merchant.

So yes, I insist : you know nothing about the playerbase, nothing about people's wishes and intentions, and nothing either about ZOS' strategy and targets when it comes to pricing this kind of items.

newtinmpls

Giraffon wrote: »

As a non-subscriber that buys all of the DLC as I go this price point is too high, but if I was still subscribing I would likely have more crowns than I would know what to do with so I would buy these both without giving it a thought.

I do sub (twice) and it's not worth it to me.

UrQuan

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

So you think that ZOS intended to price it at a point where only 10% of people are willing to buy it?

You don't actually know about that, it's your guess.

You should really know better than to think I just pulled that number out of nowhere.

Don't tell me this joke of a poll is your basis for believing to know ESO's playerbase ??? LOL !!!!!!

First thing, a forum poll is NOT representative of a group of which 95% do not even visit the forums.
Second thing, the 90% who voted "no" include a variety of reasons - no money, no interest, other priorities, whatever. Nowhere does it ask if people would buy it if it was cheaper. Those 90% even include MY vote : but I wouldn't buy them either if they were priced 100 crowns instead of 5000. And not because the product is bad, I think it's very good, but simply because I made the choice long ago to never buy anything from the crown store besides DLCs, and I stick to that decision. Simple as that.

You know, for someone who claims to base everything on logic, you might want to try actually using some one of these days.

Logically, when asking if people will by X at price Y the people who say no will always include some who wouldn't buy it at any price, and some who would buy it at various prices below the price listed, ranging from the absurdly low to prices very close to the listed price.

Logically, lowering the price will always result in more of the people who initially said they wouldn't buy it changing their mind, on a sliding scale with more buying it the lower the price gets.

Logically, the portion of people who wouldn't buy the item at any price need to be taken into account (as in: you don't just say "50% of people who are interested will buy it at X, therefore I expect 50% of the players to buy it") when projecting expected sales, but need to be ignored when determining pricing strategy.

Logically, when talking about how many people will actually buy it, and whether it makes sense to price it so that only 10% of people will, it's entirely irrelevant what the breakdown of the reasons is for the 90% as we know for a fact their reasons will be mixed, and we know for a fact that a portion of them would change their mind if the price was lower.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Third thing, yes, maybe ZOS intended to price it at a point where only 10% of people would be willing to buy it, because they want to keep city hubs ingame busy and not clutter the whole world with everyone's personal banker/merchant.

Logically, that would make no sense because they wouldn't have been promoting the assistants so heavily if they only wanted 10% of the player base to buy them.

Logically, if they intended on keeping the city hubs busy through the mechanism of putting a price on the assistants that was too high for the vast majority of the players to consider buying them, then they wouldn't have also included limitations on the assistants (no guild bank/store access for the banker, no items for sale/repair service for the merchant) that were placed for the express purpose of making sure that people still had to go to the city hubs.

Don't worry though: I know it's actually utterly pointless to continue talking to you. More than probably anyone else on the forums, your posting history over the last couple of years illustrates very clearly that you're simply not capable of ever changing your mind about anything, no matter what.

anitajoneb17_ESO

@UrQuan :

Personal attacks and insults are the useless weapons used by those who have run out of arguments. I don't change my mind if I think I'm right - I do when I think I'm wrong, which is not the case here.

Your "logic" is polluted by your own personal assumptions. If you worked in market research you'd know better about statistical representativity of a population via a sample, and the art of asking unbiased questions.

Leandor

UrQuan vs. Anitajoneb: 1:0

Mojmir

yea i slammed the door on the assistants,anything that overpriced is not allowed into this templars house.