Animation Cancelling Explained

JackDaniell

I hope you guys all enjoy, Please post any questions or comments you may have!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWHMCNFC4F0

neville_bart0s

thankyou

mdylan2013

More people avoiding intended animations... Just what we all need

neville_bart0s

mdylan2013 wrote: »

More people avoiding intended animations... Just what we all need

what does that even mean???

you can either learn how to animation cancel or you can get destroyed in PVP..... if you arent animation cancelling you are wrong

qrichou

JackDaniell wrote: »

I hope you guys all enjoy, Please post any questions or comments you may have!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWHMCNFC4F0

and why is this not glitching , cheating but seen as a skill ? This question is for our dear eso peeps

Jhunn

Oh stop crying about animation cancelling, please.

mdylan2013

neville_bart0s wrote: »

mdylan2013 wrote: »

More people avoiding intended animations... Just what we all need

what does that even mean???

you can either learn how to animation cancel or you can get destroyed in PVP..... if you arent animation cancelling you are wrong

I don't animation cancel and I can assure you I don't get destroyed in PVP.

"If you arent animation cancelling you are wrong" - yeah because avoiding an intended animation is so right.

zyk

qrichou wrote: »

and why is this not glitching , cheating but seen as a skill ? This question is for our dear eso peeps

Essentially because ZOS said so. ZOS has explained the benefits of animation cancelling are unintended, but cancelling is not considered an exploit.

It's an unintended consequence of part of the design intended to make combat feel more responsive.

However, they do recognize animations should be displayed and have been working to improve the current system. There were changes made to combat animations in 2.3 PTS that were rolled back for further tweaking.

It's important that animations are displayed because ESO was designed with a minimal UI with the idea that players would respond to cues from animations instead of UI cues. (playing the game vs playing the UI)

jcasini222ub17_ESO

I've often wonder if spamming prac incant/remembrance is an exploit or just taking advantage of the unintended consequences of lag in large fights. Same goes for nova.

GrumpyDuckling

Animation canceling just flat out doesn't make sense. Have you ever heard the argument that ZOS makes for why players can't "hide" the physical appearance of Bound Armor? They say it's because it serves as an essential visual cue to other players about battle mechanics. With that logic in mind...

How in the world is animation canceling, which hides animations of attacks, an intended and fair combat tactic? I will never agree with anyone who thinks that animation canceling is good for a game.

K4RMA

mdylan2013 wrote: »

neville_bart0s wrote: »

mdylan2013 wrote: »

More people avoiding intended animations... Just what we all need

what does that even mean???

you can either learn how to animation cancel or you can get destroyed in PVP..... if you arent animation cancelling you are wrong

I don't animation cancel and I can assure you I don't get destroyed in PVP.

"If you arent animation cancelling you are wrong" - yeah because avoiding an intended animation is so right.

ZOS has already said they arent removing animation cancelling as its an intended mechanic in the game so if i were you i would stop whining about it and learn it

Lexxypwns

mdylan2013 wrote: »

neville_bart0s wrote: »

mdylan2013 wrote: »

More people avoiding intended animations... Just what we all need

what does that even mean???

you can either learn how to animation cancel or you can get destroyed in PVP..... if you arent animation cancelling you are wrong

I don't animation cancel and I can assure you I don't get destroyed in PVP.

"If you arent animation cancelling you are wrong" - yeah because avoiding an intended animation is so right.

I can assure you, if you fight good player, using animation canceling, you can't consistently compete with them without animation canceling

idk

mdylan2013 wrote: »

More people avoiding intended animations... Just what we all need

At this point in the game the animation cancelling is considered part of the game. Devs have even given their blessing. It is a good part of the game and mostly fairly easy to do.

idk

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Animation canceling just flat out doesn't make sense. Have you ever heard the argument that ZOS makes for why players can't "hide" the physical appearance of Bound Armor? They say it's because it serves as an essential visual cue to other players about battle mechanics. With that logic in mind...

How in the world is animation canceling, which hides animations of attacks, an intended and fair combat tactic? I will never agree with anyone who thinks that animation canceling is good for a game.

I fail to see substance here. Especially since the devs have given their blessing to animation canceling over a year ago. The conversation about whether it is a legit part of the game is over. Animation canceling is appropriately part of the game.

mdylan2013

Lord_Legion wrote: »

mdylan2013 wrote: »

neville_bart0s wrote: »

mdylan2013 wrote: »

More people avoiding intended animations... Just what we all need

what does that even mean???

you can either learn how to animation cancel or you can get destroyed in PVP..... if you arent animation cancelling you are wrong

I don't animation cancel and I can assure you I don't get destroyed in PVP.

"If you arent animation cancelling you are wrong" - yeah because avoiding an intended animation is so right.

ZOS has already said they arent removing animation cancelling as its an intended mechanic in the game so if i were you i would stop whining about it and learn it

It wasn't intended, they never intended for certain abilities to be insta cast, hence why they had animations. I do believe they're working on changing the way animations work, which will help with countering animation cancellers. I'm not whining, far from it, I don't need to learn it either... I do just fine in PVP.

Gilliamtherogue

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Animation canceling just flat out doesn't make sense. Have you ever heard the argument that ZOS makes for why players can't "hide" the physical appearance of Bound Armor? They say it's because it serves as an essential visual cue to other players about battle mechanics. With that logic in mind...

How in the world is animation canceling, which hides animations of attacks, an intended and fair combat tactic? I will never agree with anyone who thinks that animation canceling is good for a game.

But costumes...

mdylan2013

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Animation canceling just flat out doesn't make sense. Have you ever heard the argument that ZOS makes for why players can't "hide" the physical appearance of Bound Armor? They say it's because it serves as an essential visual cue to other players about battle mechanics. With that logic in mind...

How in the world is animation canceling, which hides animations of attacks, an intended and fair combat tactic? I will never agree with anyone who thinks that animation canceling is good for a game.

But costumes...

I thought costumes turned bound armour off?

zyk

I haven't watched the video, but... it should be noted (for the sake of discussion) there are different types of animation cancelling. For example:

- block cancel
- bash cancel
- roll dodge cancel
- bar swap cancel (it's not really a full cancel per se as the animation partially plays while the bar is swapped)
- light/heavy attack weaves (cancelling the animation of light/heavy attacks by using an ability)
- ultimate cancel (cancelling a LA/HA by using an ultimate)

If I recall correctly, the rolled back changes on 2.3 PTS mainly addressed block and bash cancelling and may have adjusted LA/HA weaves slightly. So some forms of cancelling will always persist. The key is that ability animations remain clear.

My opinion regarding cancelling and competitive play:

Some form of cancelling is required IMO. LA/HA weaves are easy to do and can provide a big benefit. Bar swap/roll dodge cancels are also fairly easy and provide big benefits. Cancelling an ability animation with an ultimate can provide a huge benefit when it comes to bursting down an opponent. I generally don't block cancel in PVP as I always play on laggy campaigns and it rarely seems to be worth it in that environment.

Here is the 2.3 PTS Prioritization of Combat Animations thread which gives insight to what ZOS is trying to accomplish:

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/245038/official-feedback-thread-for-prioritization-of-combat-animations/

Edit:

@JackDaniell

I now have watched the video. It explains very well the concepts of animation cancelling. I would like to suggest using the Recount addon while recording videos like this to better demonstrate how quickly attacks are being executed. When I practice cancelling, I always compare my cancelled/uncancelled performance using Recount to get an idea of the practical benefits.

GrumpyDuckling

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Animation canceling just flat out doesn't make sense. Have you ever heard the argument that ZOS makes for why players can't "hide" the physical appearance of Bound Armor? They say it's because it serves as an essential visual cue to other players about battle mechanics. With that logic in mind...

How in the world is animation canceling, which hides animations of attacks, an intended and fair combat tactic? I will never agree with anyone who thinks that animation canceling is good for a game.

I fail to see substance here. Especially since the devs have given their blessing to animation canceling over a year ago. The conversation about whether it is a legit part of the game is over. Animation canceling is appropriately part of the game.

I fail to see substance in your argument. Just because, according to your word, "the devs gave their blessing to animation canceling" doesn't mean that it's a legit part of the game. Perhaps animation canceling would take too much work to fix so they didn't consider it worth the time and effort, and instead prioritized other things.

If animation canceling wasn't intended, then it's not "appropriate." That's the definition of "exploiting a game mechanic."

GrumpyDuckling

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Animation canceling just flat out doesn't make sense. Have you ever heard the argument that ZOS makes for why players can't "hide" the physical appearance of Bound Armor? They say it's because it serves as an essential visual cue to other players about battle mechanics. With that logic in mind...

How in the world is animation canceling, which hides animations of attacks, an intended and fair combat tactic? I will never agree with anyone who thinks that animation canceling is good for a game.

But costumes...

Yup, I don't get it either. But that's what they said on an ESO Live when asked why Bound Armor couldn't be hidden to show a character's real armor.

Alcast

People that do think animation canceling is hurting the game simply need to l2p...l2p super hard and better now than QQ about it. Because it will never be removed from the game.

Gilliamtherogue

mdylan2013 wrote: »

Lord_Legion wrote: »

mdylan2013 wrote: »

neville_bart0s wrote: »

mdylan2013 wrote: »

More people avoiding intended animations... Just what we all need

what does that even mean???

you can either learn how to animation cancel or you can get destroyed in PVP..... if you arent animation cancelling you are wrong

I don't animation cancel and I can assure you I don't get destroyed in PVP.

"If you arent animation cancelling you are wrong" - yeah because avoiding an intended animation is so right.

ZOS has already said they arent removing animation cancelling as its an intended mechanic in the game so if i were you i would stop whining about it and learn it

It wasn't intended, they never intended for certain abilities to be insta cast, hence why they had animations. I do believe they're working on changing the way animations work, which will help with countering animation cancellers. I'm not whining, far from it, I don't need to learn it either... I do just fine in PVP.

Incorrect. All the changes do is change visual display, while keeping animation cancelling doable. All it does is force your character into a fluff animation, while actual actions are still able to be done (once it's actually working). As ZoS stated, this change when implemented correctly, will have NO change to damage potential. The reason it was pushed back was because it was hindering certain abilities and actions. Zenimax understands that animation cancelling and weaving is apart of why this game has made it this far, it adds an extremely thick layer of depth to the game and keeps it entertaining for long term players who take the time to learn and master it. They also understand that dying to abilities that a player cannot see is no fun, which is why they aim at having specific abilities be prioritized in animation instead of being clipped to hide the action. Server side however, the damage is still calculated at the same time, and you are able to queue your next attack immediately.

Likely in long term scenarios this change will actually hinder the game, as it will appear as people are desynced animation wise from when they actually deal damage. We'll just have to wait and see though.

Speely

While I am not a fan of the dynamic, I use it constantly because if I don't I am self-nerfing my output in both PvP and PvE situations, thus rendering me objectively and factually sub-par compared to other players.

I would prefer a more commitment-based system where animations played out and their speeds were varied based on skill balance, but it's far from a deal-breaker for me. Just makes the game a bit twitchier, and one upside is that it does provide for more responsive play in a sense.

Caveat to the above benefit: One could say that making players commit to animations would provide for more strategic play since there would be more visual feeback between players, and so while instant resolution would be sacrificed, more information would be available visually on the field, resulting in "better" response as opposed to "faster."

Just musing here. I don't mind ani cancelling much. Very informative vid, btw.

JadeNaria

qrichou wrote: »

JackDaniell wrote: »

I hope you guys all enjoy, Please post any questions or comments you may have!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWHMCNFC4F0

and why is this not glitching , cheating but seen as a skill ? This question is for our dear eso peeps

I played DC Universe Online for many years and was there from the beginning. DCUO had clipping which was a bit easier than what we do here in ESO but in larger rotations took concentration. There is no cheating here, it does take skill and THE ONLY cheating here is the person who does not want to learn on how to do it thus cheating themselves out of a potential increase in performance.

Knowledge is the only thing that separates one person from the other.

flguy147ub17_ESO

Alcast wrote: »

People that do think animation canceling is hurting the game simply need to l2p...l2p super hard and better now than QQ about it. Because it will never be removed from the game.

Man i appreciate some of the videos you have posted but it does hurt some people's enjoyment of the game, as in the fun part. Its not a L2P issue for many people, its just their personal taste in what they like in combat. I will even do some animation cancelling but its because i feel forced to do it not because i like it as a combat system which is a difference. I agree it wont ever be removed but as you know, ZOS always stated prelaunch they wanted players to see the animations within the game. Yes they are working on making it better from a visual standpoint but some players actually care about enjoying the combat system instead of performance only. Most gamers play casually for fun so when a combat system isnt fun to them they will be vocal about its, its called giving feedback.

UrQuan

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Animation canceling just flat out doesn't make sense. Have you ever heard the argument that ZOS makes for why players can't "hide" the physical appearance of Bound Armor? They say it's because it serves as an essential visual cue to other players about battle mechanics. With that logic in mind...

How in the world is animation canceling, which hides animations of attacks, an intended and fair combat tactic? I will never agree with anyone who thinks that animation canceling is good for a game.

I fail to see substance here. Especially since the devs have given their blessing to animation canceling over a year ago. The conversation about whether it is a legit part of the game is over. Animation canceling is appropriately part of the game.

I fail to see substance in your argument. Just because, according to your word, "the devs gave their blessing to animation canceling" doesn't mean that it's a legit part of the game. Perhaps animation canceling would take too much work to fix so they didn't consider it worth the time and effort, and instead prioritized other things.

If animation canceling wasn't intended, then it's not "appropriate." That's the definition of "exploiting a game mechanic."

OK, I don't really understand what your position is here. Are you saying that you've missed every time a ZOS employee has talked about animation canceling, or are you saying that ZOS doesn't get to decide what is and isn't an exploit in their game?

FloppyFrank

flguy147ub17_ESO wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

People that do think animation canceling is hurting the game simply need to l2p...l2p super hard and better now than QQ about it. Because it will never be removed from the game.

Man i appreciate some of the videos you have posted but it does hurt some people's enjoyment of the game, as in the fun part. Its not a L2P issue for many people, its just their personal taste in what they like in combat. I will even do some animation cancelling but its because i feel forced to do it not because i like it as a combat system which is a difference. I agree it wont ever be removed but as you know, ZOS always stated prelaunch they wanted players to see the animations within the game. Yes they are working on making it better from a visual standpoint but some players actually care about enjoying the combat system instead of performance only. Most gamers play casually for fun so when a combat system isnt fun to them they will be vocal about its, its called giving feedback.

Yeah, and some players also want to go hybrid builds, but they feel "forced" to go either stamina or magicka. Yeah you can go hybrid, but it's gonna gimp your character and make him worthless, so they don't.

Whatzituyah

FloppyFrank wrote: »

flguy147ub17_ESO wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

People that do think animation canceling is hurting the game simply need to l2p...l2p super hard and better now than QQ about it. Because it will never be removed from the game.

Man i appreciate some of the videos you have posted but it does hurt some people's enjoyment of the game, as in the fun part. Its not a L2P issue for many people, its just their personal taste in what they like in combat. I will even do some animation cancelling but its because i feel forced to do it not because i like it as a combat system which is a difference. I agree it wont ever be removed but as you know, ZOS always stated prelaunch they wanted players to see the animations within the game. Yes they are working on making it better from a visual standpoint but some players actually care about enjoying the combat system instead of performance only. Most gamers play casually for fun so when a combat system isnt fun to them they will be vocal about its, its called giving feedback.

Yeah, and some players also want to go hybrid builds, but they feel "forced" to go either stamina or magicka. Yeah you can go hybrid, but it's gonna gimp your character and make him worthless, so they don't.

To add magicka needs some stanima how else would you dodge roll and block?

zyk

Alcast wrote: »

People that do think animation canceling is hurting the game simply need to l2p...l2p super hard and better now than QQ about it. Because it will never be removed from the game.

Animation cancelling isn't inherently good or bad. A lot of it comes down to personal preference and the goals of the game designers. It's apparent there are many players who can and do cancel for competitive reasons, but do not enjoy it.

Speely

zyk wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

People that do think animation canceling is hurting the game simply need to l2p...l2p super hard and better now than QQ about it. Because it will never be removed from the game.

Animation cancelling isn't inherently good or bad. A lot of it comes down to personal preference and the goals of the game designers. It's apparent there are many players who can and do cancel for competitive reasons, but do not enjoy it.

Well-said. I anicancel constantly to be competitive. I am really, really good at it. I "learned to play." I just don't like it in a design sense and think the game would be better without it.

Jhunn

zyk wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

People that do think animation canceling is hurting the game simply need to l2p...l2p super hard and better now than QQ about it. Because it will never be removed from the game.

Animation cancelling isn't inherently good or bad. A lot of it comes down to personal preference and the goals of the game designers. It's apparent there are many players who can and do cancel for competitive reasons, but do not enjoy it.

I've never, ever heard someone competetive say they don't enjoy animation cancelling. It's there, it's part of the game.