Thieves Guild - fun for "good" characters too?

SamRothstein

I just renewed my subscription to get back into ESO after taking a break for a couple months. I'm super excited to check out probably over half the game I still haven't seen yet - which is all the other pacts/alliances territories and all of the DLC.

Question, is all of the thieves guild content pretty much mean you "have to be a bad guy" to enjoy it? I guess it doesn't really matter that much, I guess i've just always looked at my character as a good guy, not a bad guy.

Lysette

Then do it like me - I am role playing an undercover agent, who has to howl with the wolves (thief's guild) to find out more about the guild - and so I have to blend in and do stuff like them, to gain their trust - if you do it like that, you can play the good guy still.

SamRothstein

Lysette wrote: »

Then do it like me - I am role playing an undercover agent, who has to howl with the wolves (thief's guild) to find out more about the guild - and so I have to blend in and do stuff like them, to gain their trust - if you do it like that, you can play the good guy still.

I wasn't expecting such a brilliant answer, but that is exactly what I will do. LOL.

Abeille

It's complicated.

You do not target innocent people in any of the main quests or heists (you do in some of the repeatable quests, which are entirely optional as there are other repeatable quests), and you can help people recover the trinkets that have emotional value to them (some other repeatable quests).

So I would say that this DLC is for a character that is somehow heroic but don't mind committing a little crime here and there to reach his heroic goal (say, a "neutral good" character, who breaks the law if it results on a greater good than following it would?). It is not a good DLC for a completely heartless criminal, unless you ignore all the people you help.

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO

Also I mean the thieves guild are the good guys in my opinion. Fighting oppression from the man and all. Like Robin Hood.

LordTareq

Steel from the rich, give to the poor!

Kendaric

The thieves guild isn't evil (unlike the Dark Brotherhood), so you don't necessarily have to be a bad guy. It's more of a "would my character engage in (minor) criminal acts" kind of question.
I've done the questline on a character specifically created for it, as most of my characters wouldn't engage in stealing. The approach by @Lysette works well as justification for joining the guild if your character would do such a thing.

SamRothstein

Abeille wrote: »

It's complicated.

You do not target innocent people in any of the main quests or heists (you do in some of the repeatable quests, which are entirely optional as there are other repeatable quests), and you can help people recover the trinkets that have emotional value to them (some other repeatable quests).

So I would say that this DLC is for a character that is somehow heroic but don't mind committing a little crime here and there to reach his heroic goal (say, a "neutral good" character, who breaks the law if it results on a greater good than following it would?). It is not a good DLC for a completely heartless criminal, unless you ignore all the people you help.

Ok this helps make more sense of it too for me. Good responses by everyone I appreciate it.

Nestor

SamRothstein wrote: »

Question, is all of the thieves guild content pretty much mean you "have to be a bad guy" to enjoy it? I guess it doesn't really matter that much, I guess i've just always looked at my character as a good guy, not a bad guy.

Thieves in Elder Scrolls have never been really evil. More along the lines of Robin Hood types. Steal from the Rich to give to the poor and all that. They have been more of underground help to society at large and use their skills and resources to right the wrongs that government is unwilling or unable to do anything about or the people who need help feel they can't ask for help from the authorities..

Most of the quests have to do with taking down an evil influence on the guild and it's activities rather than promoting their own dastardly ends. Sure, the daily quests where you are sent to steal things would not be good for a Good Character, but the other quests can certainly be made to fit into a role that is more helpful to society than a hindrance.

WalkingLegacy

I did the first entry mission and haven't been back. Meh

Gidorick

Lysette wrote: »

Then do it like me - I am role playing an undercover agent, who has to howl with the wolves (thief's guild) to find out more about the guild - and so I have to blend in and do stuff like them, to gain their trust - if you do it like that, you can play the good guy still.

The sad thing is, the content should have been designed with this option. We should have been the option to work undercover for the iron wheel. Stealing thieves troves and turning them into the Iron Wheel instead of the fence... it wouldn't have been that much more content to produce.

Kendaric

Gidorick wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Then do it like me - I am role playing an undercover agent, who has to howl with the wolves (thief's guild) to find out more about the guild - and so I have to blend in and do stuff like them, to gain their trust - if you do it like that, you can play the good guy still.

The sad thing is, the content should have been designed with this option. We should have been the option to work undercover for the iron wheel. Stealing things trolls and turning them into the Iron Wheel instead of the fence... it wouldn't have been that much more content to produce.

Yeah, that would have been great but sadly they didn't do it. Let's hope they'll give us an option with the Dark Brotherhood...

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO

Gidorick wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Then do it like me - I am role playing an undercover agent, who has to howl with the wolves (thief's guild) to find out more about the guild - and so I have to blend in and do stuff like them, to gain their trust - if you do it like that, you can play the good guy still.

The sad thing is, the content should have been designed with this option. We should have been the option to work undercover for the iron wheel. Stealing things trolls and turning them into the Iron Wheel instead of the fence... it wouldn't have been that much more content to produce.

I dont know I think developing an entirely new "iron wheel" passive skill line and separate fences, quests and all might have been a lot more content to produce.

staracino_ESO

Outside of the tip board repeatable quests, you really do not have to actually steal much, and the stuff you do steal is from bad people. I do not want to spoil but if you stick to the main quest line you only have to steal like 2 things from people that aren't inherently evil.
Heists are a perfect example. Any place you go to for a heist there are literally evil mobs guarding the treasures. I personally think that was a bad idea because that is not really thieving, it is just more dungeon delving with stealth. Heists should have you stealing from big mansions and such, and from people who have done nothing wrong outside of accumulate wealth.

starkerealm

Nestor wrote: »

Thieves in Elder Scrolls have never been really evil.

Mercer Frey.

staracino_ESO wrote: »

Outside of the tip board repeatable quests, you really do not have to actually steal much, and the stuff you do steal is from bad people. I do not want to spoil but if you stick to the main quest line you only have to steal like 2 things from people that aren't inherently evil.
Heists are a perfect example. Any place you go to for a heist there are literally evil mobs guarding the treasures. I personally think that was a bad idea because that is not really thieving, it is just more dungeon delving with stealth. Heists should have you stealing from big mansions and such, and from people who have done nothing wrong outside of accumulate wealth.

There is also the legendary items to steal. Which come from a variety of sources. But, yeah, in general, you're right.

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Then do it like me - I am role playing an undercover agent, who has to howl with the wolves (thief's guild) to find out more about the guild - and so I have to blend in and do stuff like them, to gain their trust - if you do it like that, you can play the good guy still.

The sad thing is, the content should have been designed with this option. We should have been the option to work undercover for the iron wheel. Stealing things trolls and turning them into the Iron Wheel instead of the fence... it wouldn't have been that much more content to produce.

I dont know I think developing an entirely new "iron wheel" passive skill line and separate fences, quests and all might have been a lot more content to produce.

The irony is, if the Iron Wheel was playable, they'd probably be the evil option. Torture someone because you think they might be a thief? And we already know they do make mistakes, from the first quest. Accusing people of being in the guild when they're not. There's even times when they go after non-thieves because they suspect their target has an association with the guild. Which is way over the line.

We don't see them dragging off legitimate merchants because a competitor fingered them as a fence. But, it's certainly consistent with their behavior. No, the Iron Wheel is a Grade A witchhunt. They would be the evil option, if given.

Beardimus

I had this same feeling about the DLC. Made a thief Alt specifically for it. Will explore the zone with my main but planned to avoid the quest line. That said I like the idea of being 'under cover' from the second poster.

Dark Brotherhood doesn't sound too good an idea to me if that too favours the 'bad guys' loved Wrothgar just hope all DLC on console is to that standard.

Tryxus

In a way, you are being a good guy by doing the main quest:

you're helping to expose a plot in which the TG got involuntarily involved with, got the blame for and is now on the verge of being wiped out

Gidorick

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Then do it like me - I am role playing an undercover agent, who has to howl with the wolves (thief's guild) to find out more about the guild - and so I have to blend in and do stuff like them, to gain their trust - if you do it like that, you can play the good guy still.

The sad thing is, the content should have been designed with this option. We should have been the option to work undercover for the iron wheel. Stealing things trolls and turning them into the Iron Wheel instead of the fence... it wouldn't have been that much more content to produce.

I dont know I think developing an entirely new "iron wheel" passive skill line and separate fences, quests and all might have been a lot more content to produce.

No, you misunderstand. You'd still get the Thieves skills @jamesharv2005ub17_ESO ... you'd just turn quests into the iron wheel. You'd be a thief to report to the iron wheel. It would have been a back and forth the whole questline of having to decide who to side with and in the end the Thieves Guild would have prevailed, obviously.

Lysette

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Then do it like me - I am role playing an undercover agent, who has to howl with the wolves (thief's guild) to find out more about the guild - and so I have to blend in and do stuff like them, to gain their trust - if you do it like that, you can play the good guy still.

The sad thing is, the content should have been designed with this option. We should have been the option to work undercover for the iron wheel. Stealing things trolls and turning them into the Iron Wheel instead of the fence... it wouldn't have been that much more content to produce.

I dont know I think developing an entirely new "iron wheel" passive skill line and separate fences, quests and all might have been a lot more content to produce.

Yeah, it was maybe an issue with having too less time to do that before reaching the deadline - I just remembered what Elloa said about her interview with the devs in regards to TG DLC content. And she said, they have not done a public dungeon due to lack of time to create one. This is not a good sign, IMO, 4 DLCs per year might be just too much of a task for them to get this done properly and in time.

I mean my solution with being undercover works somewhat, still it would have made lawful-good characters happy, to be able to work officially for the iron wheel. I know this paladin-like game play very well. Those who accept a role with such high requirements in regards to a firm morality, which is rock solid, unselfish and without personal gain (other than fame), have a much harder time to accept anything what is against the law or not good. I had always a little problem with this kind of alignment, because characters like this might consider something good just because it is the law - and that can be a very questionable moral. History is full of atrocities done by lawful characters who thought they were doing good, just because it was the law.

Volkodav

WalkingLegacy wrote: »

I did the first entry mission and haven't been back. Meh

Your loss.It's a lot of fun.:)

Volkodav

Why dont people talk about some of the other quests where you steal?
Like the one in Stone Falls where you steal some wine for a guy.Or "I need you to get me this or that,dont get caught". There are a lot of quests you should evaluate then if it bothers you guys about thievery or murder.
People go on about their morals being compromised,but they play a violent game with both thievery and killng.Not war either.
"This person upset me,kill them" Or "defeat so and so,who are just in their house minding their own business.
For the most part the quests in the game are about good,but there are those that arent too.
Dont get made at me for saying this,..but it's true.

Lysette

To me having heard now that the TG has a "robin hood" approach to many things, will make it a very interesting time in the guild, because this is tempting me, to maybe even fall for this and getting corrupted. It will make it a lot more interesting, having to make a choice (in a role play like way, with no or not much impact on my actual game play) where my loyalties will be in the end. Will I be with the guild or will I stick to my undercover agency and be a traitor in regards to the TG.

Lysette

Volkodav wrote: »

Why dont people talk about some of the other quests where you steal?
Like the one in Stone Falls where you steal some wine for a guy.Or "I need you to get me this or that,dont get caught". There are a lot of quests you should evaluate then if it bothers you guys about thievery or murder.
People go on about their morals being compromised,but they play a violent game with both thievery and killng.Not war either.
"This person upset me,kill them" Or "defeat so and so,who are just in their house minding their own business.
For the most part the quests in the game are about good,but there are those that arent too.
Dont get made at me for saying this,..but it's true.

Of course, and that is good, that there is this twilight, so that role player can make a choice and say, no this is not a task which I want to do, because it is against my inner self - especially when there is a lot wealth to be gained or a valuable item. This makes this choice even more relevant - will I stick with my morals or with my wallet. This makes it interesting.

Volkodav

Lysette wrote: »

To me having heard now that the TG has a "robin hood" approach to many things, will make it a very interesting time in the guild, because this is tempting me, to maybe even fall for this and getting corrupted. It will make it a lot more interesting, having to make a choice (in a role play like way, with no or not much impact on my actual game play) where my loyalties will be in the end. Will I be with the guild or will I stick to my undercover agency and be a traitor in regards to the TG.

Such an interesting line of thought. I would have a hard time being the traitor.I tend to be very loyal.So along those lines,I'd be a traitor either way.If I went with the Thieves Guild,Id be a traitor to my agency.And visa versa.
Hard moral issue.However,since I am only playing a game,I dont mind being a Thief.

Lysette

Volkodav wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

To me having heard now that the TG has a "robin hood" approach to many things, will make it a very interesting time in the guild, because this is tempting me, to maybe even fall for this and getting corrupted. It will make it a lot more interesting, having to make a choice (in a role play like way, with no or not much impact on my actual game play) where my loyalties will be in the end. Will I be with the guild or will I stick to my undercover agency and be a traitor in regards to the TG.

Such an interesting line of thought. I would have a hard time being the traitor.I tend to be very loyal.So along those lines,I'd be a traitor either way.If I went with the Thieves Guild,Id be a traitor to my agency.And visa versa.
Hard moral issue.However,since I am only playing a game,I dont mind being a Thief.

Yeah, or think of Oblivion and the dark brotherhood - when you have done your first murder (accidently maybe even) and then you sleep and Lucian Lachance is visting you, embracing your art of death, soothing you into this family thing and the love of sithis and the night mother. Once you fall for this, your moral code is corrupted and you change, you might become lawful in the sense, that you are serving a higher being, where you think this is ok, because it is a higher being - and so you loose on the good-evil axis, become neutral there and in the course of being a member of the DB, you might even convert into an evil character. This is very interesting to experience, how this transition can happen - it is good to experience that in a game, so that you can avoid that in real life.

Volkodav

Lysette wrote: »

Volkodav wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

To me having heard now that the TG has a "robin hood" approach to many things, will make it a very interesting time in the guild, because this is tempting me, to maybe even fall for this and getting corrupted. It will make it a lot more interesting, having to make a choice (in a role play like way, with no or not much impact on my actual game play) where my loyalties will be in the end. Will I be with the guild or will I stick to my undercover agency and be a traitor in regards to the TG.

Such an interesting line of thought. I would have a hard time being the traitor.I tend to be very loyal.So along those lines,I'd be a traitor either way.If I went with the Thieves Guild,Id be a traitor to my agency.And visa versa.
Hard moral issue.However,since I am only playing a game,I dont mind being a Thief.

Yeah, or think of Oblivion and the dark brotherhood - when you have done your first murder (accidently maybe even) and then you sleep and Lucian Lachance is visting you, embracing your art of death, soothing you into this family thing and the love of sithis and the night mother. Once you fall for this, your moral code is corrupted and you change, you might become lawful in the sense, that you are serving a higher being, where you think this is ok, because it is a higher being - and so you loose on the good-evil axis, become neutral there and in the course of being a member of the DB, you might even convert into an evil character. This is very interesting to experience, how this transition can happen - it is good to experience that in a game, so that you can avoid that in real life.

yeah,but I would never take anything form a game into my real life though.These games arent meant to be real life inspirations,and if younger ones take the content in them to heart,it isnt a good thing.
They are only me ant to be distractions from boredom,and entertainment.Like movies.There is too much expectation about games and movies providing people with moral grounding.
We should be depending on our parents and ourselves for that.Not gamea or movies.

Lysette

Volkodav wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Volkodav wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

To me having heard now that the TG has a "robin hood" approach to many things, will make it a very interesting time in the guild, because this is tempting me, to maybe even fall for this and getting corrupted. It will make it a lot more interesting, having to make a choice (in a role play like way, with no or not much impact on my actual game play) where my loyalties will be in the end. Will I be with the guild or will I stick to my undercover agency and be a traitor in regards to the TG.

Such an interesting line of thought. I would have a hard time being the traitor.I tend to be very loyal.So along those lines,I'd be a traitor either way.If I went with the Thieves Guild,Id be a traitor to my agency.And visa versa.
Hard moral issue.However,since I am only playing a game,I dont mind being a Thief.

Yeah, or think of Oblivion and the dark brotherhood - when you have done your first murder (accidently maybe even) and then you sleep and Lucian Lachance is visting you, embracing your art of death, soothing you into this family thing and the love of sithis and the night mother. Once you fall for this, your moral code is corrupted and you change, you might become lawful in the sense, that you are serving a higher being, where you think this is ok, because it is a higher being - and so you loose on the good-evil axis, become neutral there and in the course of being a member of the DB, you might even convert into an evil character. This is very interesting to experience, how this transition can happen - it is good to experience that in a game, so that you can avoid that in real life.

yeah,but I would never take anything form a game into my real life though.These games arent meant to be real life inspirations,and if younger ones take the content in them to heart,it isnt a good thing.
They are only me ant to be distractions from boredom,and entertainment.Like movies.There is too much expectation about games and movies providing people with moral grounding.
We should be depending on our parents and ourselves for that.Not gamea or movies.

Did you watch "crimson tide" by any chance - this is such a choice to be made - do I follow the order on hand, despite that there is not enough information to make a wise decision, and be lawful and if I am not right i put the world into a nuclear war - or on the other hand, do I abandon the order on hand, and go against military rules and give common sense a chance, get the information required to make a wise choice, even it it would mean, that I risk the life of millions by simply being too late with the task on hand - this movie teaches a lot about such situation, where you have to make moral choices, which are not easy. And you see the struggle which characters have in the movie when morals and orders conflict.

Edit: to me real life is just another game - which you play and can't reload - life is not giving you 2nd chances to the most part - it is vital to make good choices - and a game can teach you how to make them IMO.

Crimsonwolf666

I don't necessarily see the Thieves Guild as good or bad. Its always a matter of perspective. The characters of the TG seem very down to earth and kind, but they do steal. While lore wise the Thieves Guild has been known to give to the poor and take from the more well-to-do citizens or political officials, they also steal for their own comfort and prosperity. So I wouldn't sweat too much on the main story of TG as to whether that makes you a "bad guy" or "good guy". I just wouldn't do the dailies of the TG. The story doesn't place you in a bad or good light; if anything it puts you in more of a good light.
However, for the upcoming Dark Brotherhood....I have no answer to give as to whether your good character can go through that with a clean conscience lol.

Volkodav

Lysette wrote: »

Volkodav wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Volkodav wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

To me having heard now that the TG has a "robin hood" approach to many things, will make it a very interesting time in the guild, because this is tempting me, to maybe even fall for this and getting corrupted. It will make it a lot more interesting, having to make a choice (in a role play like way, with no or not much impact on my actual game play) where my loyalties will be in the end. Will I be with the guild or will I stick to my undercover agency and be a traitor in regards to the TG.

Such an interesting line of thought. I would have a hard time being the traitor.I tend to be very loyal.So along those lines,I'd be a traitor either way.If I went with the Thieves Guild,Id be a traitor to my agency.And visa versa.
Hard moral issue.However,since I am only playing a game,I dont mind being a Thief.

Yeah, or think of Oblivion and the dark brotherhood - when you have done your first murder (accidently maybe even) and then you sleep and Lucian Lachance is visting you, embracing your art of death, soothing you into this family thing and the love of sithis and the night mother. Once you fall for this, your moral code is corrupted and you change, you might become lawful in the sense, that you are serving a higher being, where you think this is ok, because it is a higher being - and so you loose on the good-evil axis, become neutral there and in the course of being a member of the DB, you might even convert into an evil character. This is very interesting to experience, how this transition can happen - it is good to experience that in a game, so that you can avoid that in real life.

yeah,but I would never take anything form a game into my real life though.These games arent meant to be real life inspirations,and if younger ones take the content in them to heart,it isnt a good thing.
They are only me ant to be distractions from boredom,and entertainment.Like movies.There is too much expectation about games and movies providing people with moral grounding.
We should be depending on our parents and ourselves for that.Not gamea or movies.

Did you watch "crimson tide" by any chance - this is such a choice to be made - do I follow the order on hand, despite that there is not enough information to make a wise decision, and be lawful and if I am not right i put the world into a nuclear war - or on the other hand, do I abandon the order on hand, and go against military rules and give common sense a chance, get the information required to make a wise choice, even it it would mean, that I risk the life of millions by simply being to late with the task on hand - this movie teaches a lot about such situation, where you have to make moral choices, which are not easy.

Movies are created to manipulate your feelings,nothing more.They are meant to take you away from real life,not make you think of how you will live yours. If you mean the film Crimson Tide,I loved it.Did I choose to make my life's decisions based on their type of choices? No,not at all,as their situation will never come up in my world.I have learned all my morals from my Father,..and from living life,not from some tv show or movie.
Anyone who believes that movies are the teachers of life's lessons is a serious fool.
Either that,or humans have evolved to the point that they have no real teachers in their lives any longer.No one to look up to anymore so they need false heroes.

Lysette

Crimsonwolf666 wrote: »

I don't necessarily see the Thieves Guild as good or bad. Its always a matter of perspective. The characters of the TG seem very down to earth and kind, but they do steal. While lore wise the Thieves Guild has been known to give to the poor and take from the more well-to-do citizens or political officials, they also steal for their own comfort and prosperity. So I wouldn't sweat too much on the main story of TG as to whether that makes you a "bad guy" or "good guy". I just wouldn't do the dailies of the TG. The story doesn't place you in a bad or good light; if anything it puts you in more of a good light.
However, for the upcoming Dark Brotherhood....I have no answer to give as to whether your good character can go through that with a clean conscience lol.

Dark brotherhood is much more easy to justify it - by the same reason atrocities of any kind were justified in history - to serve a supreme being and consider all what this being is demanding as "good" - just like all religions in this world are doing it. In DB you serve Sithis - you do not serve mortals, so the choice is easy for someone who thinks in a lawful way - godly law outweights mortal law - simple as that. At least that is what many might think - I question this position for example.

Edit: I am not worried about that - I like to have to make this choices in games - that is role play, and it is exciting to see how my characters unfold and how their mind set and morals are evolving throughout the game. This is what role play is like to me - to me things like that matter and are part of the fun of an RPG.

starkerealm

Lysette wrote: »

Crimsonwolf666 wrote: »

I don't necessarily see the Thieves Guild as good or bad. Its always a matter of perspective. The characters of the TG seem very down to earth and kind, but they do steal. While lore wise the Thieves Guild has been known to give to the poor and take from the more well-to-do citizens or political officials, they also steal for their own comfort and prosperity. So I wouldn't sweat too much on the main story of TG as to whether that makes you a "bad guy" or "good guy". I just wouldn't do the dailies of the TG. The story doesn't place you in a bad or good light; if anything it puts you in more of a good light.
However, for the upcoming Dark Brotherhood....I have no answer to give as to whether your good character can go through that with a clean conscience lol.

Dark brotherhood is much more easy to justify it - by the same reason atrocities of any kind were justified in history - to serve a supreme being and consider all what this being is demanding as "good" - just like all religions in this world are doing it. In DB you serve Sithis - you do not serve mortals, so the choice is easy for someone who thinks in a lawful way - godly law outweights mortal law - simple as that. At least that is what many might think - I question this position for example.

Which is hilarious, when you remember that the Morag Tong's major issue with the Dark Brotherhood is that they have forsaken their sacred duty and run off in search of riches. Which the Tong is not amused with.