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Thieves Guild - fun for "good" characters too?
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Volkodav✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Sometimes I think some people here are way too serious about this game. Trying to make people think hard about moral choices in real life and a game is so weird.
Please,forgive me if I get this way,but some people just cannot tell the difference between the two.
(not the OP)
Sorry,I'll quit now.Edited by Volkodav on March 22, 2016 2:30AM -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »Crimsonwolf666 wrote: »I don't necessarily see the Thieves Guild as good or bad. Its always a matter of perspective. The characters of the TG seem very down to earth and kind, but they do steal. While lore wise the Thieves Guild has been known to give to the poor and take from the more well-to-do citizens or political officials, they also steal for their own comfort and prosperity. So I wouldn't sweat too much on the main story of TG as to whether that makes you a "bad guy" or "good guy". I just wouldn't do the dailies of the TG. The story doesn't place you in a bad or good light; if anything it puts you in more of a good light.
However, for the upcoming Dark Brotherhood....I have no answer to give as to whether your good character can go through that with a clean conscience lol.
Dark brotherhood is much more easy to justify it - by the same reason atrocities of any kind were justified in history - to serve a supreme being and consider all what this being is demanding as "good" - just like all religions in this world are doing it. In DB you serve Sithis - you do not serve mortals, so the choice is easy for someone who thinks in a lawful way - godly law outweights mortal law - simple as that. At least that is what many might think - I question this position for example.
Which is hilarious, when you remember that the Morag Tong's major issue with the Dark Brotherhood is that they have forsaken their sacred duty and run off in search of riches. Which the Tong is not amused with.
Yes, but morag tong is not really better, they have just a better excuse. -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »Crimsonwolf666 wrote: »I don't necessarily see the Thieves Guild as good or bad. Its always a matter of perspective. The characters of the TG seem very down to earth and kind, but they do steal. While lore wise the Thieves Guild has been known to give to the poor and take from the more well-to-do citizens or political officials, they also steal for their own comfort and prosperity. So I wouldn't sweat too much on the main story of TG as to whether that makes you a "bad guy" or "good guy". I just wouldn't do the dailies of the TG. The story doesn't place you in a bad or good light; if anything it puts you in more of a good light.
However, for the upcoming Dark Brotherhood....I have no answer to give as to whether your good character can go through that with a clean conscience lol.
Dark brotherhood is much more easy to justify it - by the same reason atrocities of any kind were justified in history - to serve a supreme being and consider all what this being is demanding as "good" - just like all religions in this world are doing it. In DB you serve Sithis - you do not serve mortals, so the choice is easy for someone who thinks in a lawful way - godly law outweights mortal law - simple as that. At least that is what many might think - I question this position for example.
Which is hilarious, when you remember that the Morag Tong's major issue with the Dark Brotherhood is that they have forsaken their sacred duty and run off in search of riches. Which the Tong is not amused with.
Yes, but morag tong is not really better, they have just a better excuse.
Not really. The Morag Tong worships Mephala... worships might be the wrong word, but, anyway. The Dark Brotherhood worships Sithis or, alternately, the Night Mother, or whatever is going on there.
Both are religious fanatics that kill for their cause and for gold. And between them there's a doctrinal dispute about who they're during the murdilating for.Co-Host of The Tenets: a podcast focused on bringing new players up to speed in ESO. -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »Crimsonwolf666 wrote: »I don't necessarily see the Thieves Guild as good or bad. Its always a matter of perspective. The characters of the TG seem very down to earth and kind, but they do steal. While lore wise the Thieves Guild has been known to give to the poor and take from the more well-to-do citizens or political officials, they also steal for their own comfort and prosperity. So I wouldn't sweat too much on the main story of TG as to whether that makes you a "bad guy" or "good guy". I just wouldn't do the dailies of the TG. The story doesn't place you in a bad or good light; if anything it puts you in more of a good light.
However, for the upcoming Dark Brotherhood....I have no answer to give as to whether your good character can go through that with a clean conscience lol.
Dark brotherhood is much more easy to justify it - by the same reason atrocities of any kind were justified in history - to serve a supreme being and consider all what this being is demanding as "good" - just like all religions in this world are doing it. In DB you serve Sithis - you do not serve mortals, so the choice is easy for someone who thinks in a lawful way - godly law outweights mortal law - simple as that. At least that is what many might think - I question this position for example.
Which is hilarious, when you remember that the Morag Tong's major issue with the Dark Brotherhood is that they have forsaken their sacred duty and run off in search of riches. Which the Tong is not amused with.
Yes, but morag tong is not really better, they have just a better excuse.
Not really. The Morag Tong worships Mephala... worships might be the wrong word, but, anyway. The Dark Brotherhood worships Sithis or, alternately, the Night Mother, or whatever is going on there.
Both are religious fanatics that kill for their cause and for gold. And between them there's a doctrinal dispute about who they're during the murdilating for.
Urgs now I have pissed off Volkodav - I am not forcing anything on other players, I am just telling about what role play is to me and how I see thief's guild, dark brotherhood and my own - resp. my character's - choices in all of this. I am not saying that this is the right way to do it, but if someone considers alignments and how his/her characters behave in the game, then this is basically what could be part of his/her judgement process and part of the experience you can make as a role player in a game.Edited by Lysette on March 22, 2016 2:42AM -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Urgs now I have pissed off Volkodav - I am not forcing anything on other players, I am just telling about what role play is to me and how I see thief's guild, dark brotherhood and my own - resp. my character's - choices in all of this. I am not saying that this is the right way to do it, but if someone considers alignments and how his character's behave in the game, then this is basically what could be part of his judgement process and part of the experience you can make as a role player in a game.
Clearly, the only solution is ninja vanish flee for your life.
To be fair, sometimes, it can be hard to tell if someone is simply committing to their character's role, or if someone's completely lost touch with reality. Now, I didn't think the latter was the case with you (or Volkodav, for that matter). But, I get what Volk is saying... most of the time.Co-Host of The Tenets: a podcast focused on bringing new players up to speed in ESO. -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Morrowind was anyway very good when it comes to moral choices - like the intentions of the 3 houses - I choose Hlaalu, despite the fact, that it was clear to me, that they are doing mafia business and bully people for their own selfish gains. Work With intimidation and murder - money and wealth is their god - but at least they are pure with it, you know what you buy into, when you go with Hlaalu - the same is not true for Redoran and Telvani. -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Morrowind was anyway very good when it comes to moral choices - like the intentions of the 3 houses - I choose Hlaalu, despite the fact, that it was clear to me, that they are doing mafia business and bully people for their own selfish gains. Work With intimidation and murder - money and wealth is their god - but at least they are pure with it, you know what you buy into, when you go with Hlaalu - the same is not true for Redoran and Telvani.
In general, The Elder Scrolls has been pretty good with moral ambiguity. At least starting with Morrowind. (I've never gotten very far in Daggerfall, and never gotten out of the starter dungeon in Arena.)
Though, Morrowind is probably the best, with the interconnected faction questlines that directly conflicted.Co-Host of The Tenets: a podcast focused on bringing new players up to speed in ESO. -
Volkodav✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭starkerealm wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »Crimsonwolf666 wrote: »I don't necessarily see the Thieves Guild as good or bad. Its always a matter of perspective. The characters of the TG seem very down to earth and kind, but they do steal. While lore wise the Thieves Guild has been known to give to the poor and take from the more well-to-do citizens or political officials, they also steal for their own comfort and prosperity. So I wouldn't sweat too much on the main story of TG as to whether that makes you a "bad guy" or "good guy". I just wouldn't do the dailies of the TG. The story doesn't place you in a bad or good light; if anything it puts you in more of a good light.
However, for the upcoming Dark Brotherhood....I have no answer to give as to whether your good character can go through that with a clean conscience lol.
Dark brotherhood is much more easy to justify it - by the same reason atrocities of any kind were justified in history - to serve a supreme being and consider all what this being is demanding as "good" - just like all religions in this world are doing it. In DB you serve Sithis - you do not serve mortals, so the choice is easy for someone who thinks in a lawful way - godly law outweights mortal law - simple as that. At least that is what many might think - I question this position for example.
Which is hilarious, when you remember that the Morag Tong's major issue with the Dark Brotherhood is that they have forsaken their sacred duty and run off in search of riches. Which the Tong is not amused with.
Yes, but morag tong is not really better, they have just a better excuse.
Not really. The Morag Tong worships Mephala... worships might be the wrong word, but, anyway. The Dark Brotherhood worships Sithis or, alternately, the Night Mother, or whatever is going on there.
Both are religious fanatics that kill for their cause and for gold. And between them there's a doctrinal dispute about who they're during the murdilating for.
Urgs now I have pissed off Volkodav - I am not forcing anything on other players, I am just telling about what role play is to me and how I see thief's guild, dark brotherhood and my own - resp. my character's - choices in all of this. I am not saying that this is the right way to do it, but if someone considers alignments and how his/her characters behave in the game, then this is basically what could be part of his/her judgement process and part of the experience you can make as a role player in a game.
No,no,sweety.I am not pissed off at you.Not at all.I was just saying that RL and game life shouldnt be compared,really.
I am sorry if you thought that.It's entirely my fault. -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »Urgs now I have pissed off Volkodav - I am not forcing anything on other players, I am just telling about what role play is to me and how I see thief's guild, dark brotherhood and my own - resp. my character's - choices in all of this. I am not saying that this is the right way to do it, but if someone considers alignments and how his character's behave in the game, then this is basically what could be part of his judgement process and part of the experience you can make as a role player in a game.
Clearly, the only solution is ninja vanish flee for your life.
To be fair, sometimes, it can be hard to tell if someone is simply committing to their character's role, or if someone's completely lost touch with reality. Now, I didn't think the latter was the case with you (or Volkodav, for that matter). But, I get what Volk is saying... most of the time.
To me it is role play - but nature has invented "to play" in order to learn something for real life in a playful manner. And I can learn something about myself by immersing me into the role's of my characters. I learnt for example, that wealth and money cannot corrupt me - but where I am vulnerable is when it comes to "pride" - like Lucian Lachance got to me with his praise of the art of performing a masterpiece of death - praise and pride - these are my weaknesses. I have to be very careful to not make choice in my real life which trigger my pride - this could lead to wrong or unwise decisions - this is what I learnt from this about myself. -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭To me it is role play - but nature has invented "to play" in order to learn something for real life in a playful manner.
Yeah, that's actually pretty normal... more or less.
This might be slightly off topic, but it reminds me of something from John Cleese...
Co-Host of The Tenets: a podcast focused on bringing new players up to speed in ESO. -
Moonscythe✭✭✭✭✭Is this thieves guild like skyrim's because they were bad guys, propping up corruption and doing rotten deeds just to stay on the good side of the Blackbriars. I hated it. The main quest was fine but not the early parts. Morrowind was more Robin Hood. So which is this? I was not going to get this DLC because I figured it would be darker than I like to play.
And don't hit me with the just a game thing because I don't care. I'm old enough to know who I am and I play myself within the confines of the game. That means I don't harm innocents and I avoid the bad options. I may subscribe for a month to check out TG if it looks inviting enough. I am curious because I love stealth and don't actually have a problem with thievery so much as the dirty tricks that were part of Skyrim. I much preferred the reverse thievery required to become the head of the guild in Morrowind.Edited by Moonscythe on March 22, 2016 3:33AMScura di Notte - Altmer Nightblade (gear)
Lalin del Sombra - Bosmer Sorcerer (alchemy/enchanting)
Angevin Sarkany - Bosmer Dragonknight
Alkemene Velothi - Dunmer Warden (Morrowind)
Sanna yos'Phalen - Altmer Sorcerer (provisioning)
Cosima di Mattina -Altmer Sorcerer
Naria Andrano - Dunmer Templar
Luca della Serata - Redguard Templar -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Moonscythe wrote: »Is this thieves guild like skyrim's because they were bad guys, propping up corruption and doing rotten deeds just to stay on the good side of the Blackbriars. I hated it. The main quest was fine but not the early parts. Morrowind was more Robin Hood. So which is this? I was not going to get this DLC because I figured it would be darker than I like to play.
It's less like Skyrim, more like Oblivion or Morrowind's. You're not affiliated with anyone like the Blackbriars. You're playing in a Guild that's being hunted down by a fanatical group of mercenary/enforcer types. Trying to restore the guild, and get them off your back.
EDIT: To be fair, you're not actively altruistic, like in Oblivion, but still... nothing like the Blackbriars.Edited by starkerealm on March 22, 2016 3:21AMCo-Host of The Tenets: a podcast focused on bringing new players up to speed in ESO. -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »
This is very interesting to me - as well on a professional level - I did not know this talk - thank you for the link. -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »
This is very interesting to me - as well on a professional level - I did not know this talk - thank you for the link.
It's the same for me, my job is why I remember that video exists. And, glad I could pass it on, further.Co-Host of The Tenets: a podcast focused on bringing new players up to speed in ESO. -
Volkodav✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭starkerealm wrote: »
I watched this in it's entirity and loved it.This man is amazing,
Points I thought relative to some things here:
"Play is distinct from ordinary life"
Also
"Play is possible when separated from everyday life"
There is a lot a person can take from his words.
And the jokes are great!
Edited by Volkodav on March 22, 2016 3:51AM -
WhimsyDragon✭✭✭I had the same reaction as the OP, wondering if the DLC pack made sense for my goody goody character. I've avoided getting involved with the justice system, as stealing is not my templar's cup of tea. But I think that sometimes you do need to step back from the fact that it's a game and not everything within it is black and white. There are a number of times when players have to make decisions without knowing whether they are doing it for NPCs with good intentions or whether good intentions are even enough. In reality, sometimes trusting the wrong people has pretty awful consequences, but in ESO, hopefully you're not haunted by every adventure -- like oh hey, maybe you shoulda heard the other side of the story before taking out that whole village! Though I do like some of the clarifications on background here and the roleplay ideas. I'm intending to play through, though probably not all at once. -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »
I watched this in it's entirity and loved it.This man is amazing,
Points I thought relative to some things here:
"Play is distinct from ordinary life"
Also
"Play is possible when separated from everyday life"
There is a lot a person can take from his words.
And the jokes are great!
Also worth remembering that when you're wandering into these forums, some people do extend their play from the game onto here. Others do not.Co-Host of The Tenets: a podcast focused on bringing new players up to speed in ESO. -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I had the same reaction as the OP, wondering if the DLC pack made sense for my goody goody character. I've avoided getting involved with the justice system, as stealing is not my templar's cup of tea.
To be fair, I honestly don't plan to play through the TG content on all my characters because of that.Co-Host of The Tenets: a podcast focused on bringing new players up to speed in ESO. -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »
This is very interesting to me - as well on a professional level - I did not know this talk - thank you for the link.
It's the same for me, my job is why I remember that video exists. And, glad I could pass it on, further.
It is interesting because we use pairs of interconnected complex adaptive systems to achieve a more natural form of AI, which is not based on understanding of the problem, but on using a directed adaptation process to find creative and working solutions, which in the end turn out to be quite clever - even no one has thought here, it is just a simple evolutionary process which creates all this - and in this video at about minute 30 he makes a vital point, which is actually the case in a complex adaptive process - it is not based on logic - it has rational and irrational components - what is common is, that all steps worked at some point in time and were successful - or in other words, the way to a good solution might not always be reasonable, but it might still lead to reasonable results.
Another thing which was interesting is, that when you observe a complex adaptive system unfolding, you find as well these open and closed modes - open modes are evolutionary jumps - something has so high of an advantage that it comes to a phase shift in the system, rapid "creativity" is happening - but it is followed by a closed mode - a phase where these changes are distributed in the "gene" pool and not much seems to happen - this is the closed mode, where traits are mixed and interchanged and altered until a new open mode - an evolutionary jump - will happen - this is just like he described, just that this is not about humans in our case, but about machines, which are intelligent and creative by these means.
This about why this is interesting to me.Edited by Lysette on March 22, 2016 4:20AM -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »
This is very interesting to me - as well on a professional level - I did not know this talk - thank you for the link.
It's the same for me, my job is why I remember that video exists. And, glad I could pass it on, further.
It is interesting because we use pairs of interconnected complex adaptive systems to achieve a more natural form of AI, which is not based on understanding of the problem, but on using a directed adaptation process to find creative and working solutions, which in the end turn out to be quite clever - even no one has thought here, it is just a simple evolutionary process which creates all this - and in this video at about minute 30 he makes a vital point, which is actually the case in a complex adaptive process - it is not based on logic - it has rational and irrational components - what is common is, that all steps worked at some point in time and were successful - or in other words, the way to a good solution might not always be reasonable, but it might still lead to reasonable results.
Another thing which was interesting is, that when you observe a complex adaptive system unfolding, you find as well these open and closed modes - open modes are evolutionary jumps - something has so high of an advantage that it comes to a phase shift in the system, rapid "creativity" is happening - but it is followed by a close mode - a phase where these changes are distributed in the "gene" pool and not much seems to happen - this is the closed mode, where traits are mixed and interchanged and altered until a new open mode - an evolutionary jump - will happen - this is just like he described, just that this is not about humans in our case, but about machines, which are intelligent and creative by these means.
This about why this is interesting to me.
I just write for a living, so being creative is an occupational requirement.
To be fair, also the point about the first apparent solution not, always, being the right one, or at least not the most creative one, is something I try to keep in mind..Co-Host of The Tenets: a podcast focused on bringing new players up to speed in ESO. -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »
This is very interesting to me - as well on a professional level - I did not know this talk - thank you for the link.
It's the same for me, my job is why I remember that video exists. And, glad I could pass it on, further.
It is interesting because we use pairs of interconnected complex adaptive systems to achieve a more natural form of AI, which is not based on understanding of the problem, but on using a directed adaptation process to find creative and working solutions, which in the end turn out to be quite clever - even no one has thought here, it is just a simple evolutionary process which creates all this - and in this video at about minute 30 he makes a vital point, which is actually the case in a complex adaptive process - it is not based on logic - it has rational and irrational components - what is common is, that all steps worked at some point in time and were successful - or in other words, the way to a good solution might not always be reasonable, but it might still lead to reasonable results.
Another thing which was interesting is, that when you observe a complex adaptive system unfolding, you find as well these open and closed modes - open modes are evolutionary jumps - something has so high of an advantage that it comes to a phase shift in the system, rapid "creativity" is happening - but it is followed by a close mode - a phase where these changes are distributed in the "gene" pool and not much seems to happen - this is the closed mode, where traits are mixed and interchanged and altered until a new open mode - an evolutionary jump - will happen - this is just like he described, just that this is not about humans in our case, but about machines, which are intelligent and creative by these means.
This about why this is interesting to me.
I just write for a living, so being creative is an occupational requirement.
To be fair, also the point about the first apparent solution not, always, being the right one, or at least not the most creative one, is something I try to keep in mind..
Reminds me of "I am sorry, to have written such a long letter, but I just did not have the time for a shorter one".
Edit: I'll give you another perspective on writing, maybe as a creative impulse - see it from a salesman perspective - you have to sell a story, how would a good salesman go on with it, how would he describe his product, how to make the reader interested into the storyline, how to keep his interest, how to make him smile and laugh, how to make him think, how to make him getting involve and pulled into the story, to the point, tht he has to read it - this all has a lot to do with how good salesman do their job. Just think about it.Edited by Lysette on March 22, 2016 4:34AM -
lihentian✭✭✭✭✭thieves guild dlc only offer 15 quest or so.. out of these quest two are for delve, one is for trail... all the rest is thieves guild line..
there are also repeatable which is just pickpocket/strongbox in random zone.. and one heist per day, which you enter a dungeon to steal several item..
in another word no.. -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »
This is very interesting to me - as well on a professional level - I did not know this talk - thank you for the link.
It's the same for me, my job is why I remember that video exists. And, glad I could pass it on, further.
It is interesting because we use pairs of interconnected complex adaptive systems to achieve a more natural form of AI, which is not based on understanding of the problem, but on using a directed adaptation process to find creative and working solutions, which in the end turn out to be quite clever - even no one has thought here, it is just a simple evolutionary process which creates all this - and in this video at about minute 30 he makes a vital point, which is actually the case in a complex adaptive process - it is not based on logic - it has rational and irrational components - what is common is, that all steps worked at some point in time and were successful - or in other words, the way to a good solution might not always be reasonable, but it might still lead to reasonable results.
Another thing which was interesting is, that when you observe a complex adaptive system unfolding, you find as well these open and closed modes - open modes are evolutionary jumps - something has so high of an advantage that it comes to a phase shift in the system, rapid "creativity" is happening - but it is followed by a close mode - a phase where these changes are distributed in the "gene" pool and not much seems to happen - this is the closed mode, where traits are mixed and interchanged and altered until a new open mode - an evolutionary jump - will happen - this is just like he described, just that this is not about humans in our case, but about machines, which are intelligent and creative by these means.
This about why this is interesting to me.
I just write for a living, so being creative is an occupational requirement.
To be fair, also the point about the first apparent solution not, always, being the right one, or at least not the most creative one, is something I try to keep in mind..
Reminds me of "I am sorry, to have written such a long letter, but I just did not have the time for a shorter one".
I do always love when someone finds a new way to understand advice. I mean, Cleese's advice is really good for being creative. But, actually looking at these patterns to extrapolate more natural AI behavior? It blows my mind.
Of course, I'm also one of those weird guys that looks at stuff like Art of War and says, "yeah, no, you can totally apply this to everyday life."Co-Host of The Tenets: a podcast focused on bringing new players up to speed in ESO. -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »
This is very interesting to me - as well on a professional level - I did not know this talk - thank you for the link.
It's the same for me, my job is why I remember that video exists. And, glad I could pass it on, further.
It is interesting because we use pairs of interconnected complex adaptive systems to achieve a more natural form of AI, which is not based on understanding of the problem, but on using a directed adaptation process to find creative and working solutions, which in the end turn out to be quite clever - even no one has thought here, it is just a simple evolutionary process which creates all this - and in this video at about minute 30 he makes a vital point, which is actually the case in a complex adaptive process - it is not based on logic - it has rational and irrational components - what is common is, that all steps worked at some point in time and were successful - or in other words, the way to a good solution might not always be reasonable, but it might still lead to reasonable results.
Another thing which was interesting is, that when you observe a complex adaptive system unfolding, you find as well these open and closed modes - open modes are evolutionary jumps - something has so high of an advantage that it comes to a phase shift in the system, rapid "creativity" is happening - but it is followed by a close mode - a phase where these changes are distributed in the "gene" pool and not much seems to happen - this is the closed mode, where traits are mixed and interchanged and altered until a new open mode - an evolutionary jump - will happen - this is just like he described, just that this is not about humans in our case, but about machines, which are intelligent and creative by these means.
This about why this is interesting to me.
I just write for a living, so being creative is an occupational requirement.
To be fair, also the point about the first apparent solution not, always, being the right one, or at least not the most creative one, is something I try to keep in mind..
Reminds me of "I am sorry, to have written such a long letter, but I just did not have the time for a shorter one".
I do always love when someone finds a new way to understand advice. I mean, Cleese's advice is really good for being creative. But, actually looking at these patterns to extrapolate more natural AI behavior? It blows my mind.
Of course, I'm also one of those weird guys that looks at stuff like Art of War and says, "yeah, no, you can totally apply this to everyday life."
Bingo
Edit: I just compared that what he said with our own research about natural machine intelligence - and it has it's parallels.Edited by Lysette on March 22, 2016 4:40AM -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »
This is very interesting to me - as well on a professional level - I did not know this talk - thank you for the link.
It's the same for me, my job is why I remember that video exists. And, glad I could pass it on, further.
It is interesting because we use pairs of interconnected complex adaptive systems to achieve a more natural form of AI, which is not based on understanding of the problem, but on using a directed adaptation process to find creative and working solutions, which in the end turn out to be quite clever - even no one has thought here, it is just a simple evolutionary process which creates all this - and in this video at about minute 30 he makes a vital point, which is actually the case in a complex adaptive process - it is not based on logic - it has rational and irrational components - what is common is, that all steps worked at some point in time and were successful - or in other words, the way to a good solution might not always be reasonable, but it might still lead to reasonable results.
Another thing which was interesting is, that when you observe a complex adaptive system unfolding, you find as well these open and closed modes - open modes are evolutionary jumps - something has so high of an advantage that it comes to a phase shift in the system, rapid "creativity" is happening - but it is followed by a close mode - a phase where these changes are distributed in the "gene" pool and not much seems to happen - this is the closed mode, where traits are mixed and interchanged and altered until a new open mode - an evolutionary jump - will happen - this is just like he described, just that this is not about humans in our case, but about machines, which are intelligent and creative by these means.
This about why this is interesting to me.
I just write for a living, so being creative is an occupational requirement.
To be fair, also the point about the first apparent solution not, always, being the right one, or at least not the most creative one, is something I try to keep in mind..
Reminds me of "I am sorry, to have written such a long letter, but I just did not have the time for a shorter one".
I do always love when someone finds a new way to understand advice. I mean, Cleese's advice is really good for being creative. But, actually looking at these patterns to extrapolate more natural AI behavior? It blows my mind.
Of course, I'm also one of those weird guys that looks at stuff like Art of War and says, "yeah, no, you can totally apply this to everyday life."
Bingo
Edit: I just compared that what he said with our own research about natural machine intelligence - and it has it's parallels.
Yeah, I understood that. It's also really cool. I just didn't have anything articulate or coherent to add beyond, "neat."Co-Host of The Tenets: a podcast focused on bringing new players up to speed in ESO. -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »
This is very interesting to me - as well on a professional level - I did not know this talk - thank you for the link.
It's the same for me, my job is why I remember that video exists. And, glad I could pass it on, further.
It is interesting because we use pairs of interconnected complex adaptive systems to achieve a more natural form of AI, which is not based on understanding of the problem, but on using a directed adaptation process to find creative and working solutions, which in the end turn out to be quite clever - even no one has thought here, it is just a simple evolutionary process which creates all this - and in this video at about minute 30 he makes a vital point, which is actually the case in a complex adaptive process - it is not based on logic - it has rational and irrational components - what is common is, that all steps worked at some point in time and were successful - or in other words, the way to a good solution might not always be reasonable, but it might still lead to reasonable results.
Another thing which was interesting is, that when you observe a complex adaptive system unfolding, you find as well these open and closed modes - open modes are evolutionary jumps - something has so high of an advantage that it comes to a phase shift in the system, rapid "creativity" is happening - but it is followed by a close mode - a phase where these changes are distributed in the "gene" pool and not much seems to happen - this is the closed mode, where traits are mixed and interchanged and altered until a new open mode - an evolutionary jump - will happen - this is just like he described, just that this is not about humans in our case, but about machines, which are intelligent and creative by these means.
This about why this is interesting to me.
I just write for a living, so being creative is an occupational requirement.
To be fair, also the point about the first apparent solution not, always, being the right one, or at least not the most creative one, is something I try to keep in mind..
Reminds me of "I am sorry, to have written such a long letter, but I just did not have the time for a shorter one".
I do always love when someone finds a new way to understand advice. I mean, Cleese's advice is really good for being creative. But, actually looking at these patterns to extrapolate more natural AI behavior? It blows my mind.
Of course, I'm also one of those weird guys that looks at stuff like Art of War and says, "yeah, no, you can totally apply this to everyday life."
Bingo
Edit: I just compared that what he said with our own research about natural machine intelligence - and it has it's parallels.
Yeah, I understood that. It's also really cool. I just didn't have anything articulate or coherent to add beyond, "neat."
My favorite quote from The Art of War is this one - the second half is often forgotten to be quoted, but it is actually that part, which is vital if you want to be a successful leader. Just the first part alone will just spoil them.
Regard your soldiers as your children, and they will follow you into the deepest valleys; look upon them as your own beloved sons, and they will stand by you even unto death. If, however, you are indulgent, but unable to make your authority felt; kind-hearted, but unable to enforce your commands; and incapable, moreover, of quelling disorder: then your soldiers must be likened to spoilt children; they are useless for any practical purpose. -
TheShadowScout✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Personally I would -love- adding an "iron wheel" questline to Hews Bane... either go there following the TG storyline, or go there following a quest for justice, notice the witchhunting iron wheel isn't just, and lead an internal opposition to them being the catspaw of a manipulating master merchant who might be a former thief lord... pick one of the other, get one thievery skill line or one for justice!starkerealm wrote: »The irony is, if the Iron Wheel was playable, they'd probably be the evil option. Torture someone because you think they might be a thief? And we already know they do make mistakes, from the first quest. Accusing people of being in the guild when they're not. There's even times when they go after non-thieves because they suspect their target has an association with the guild. Which is way over the line.
We don't see them dragging off legitimate merchants because a competitor fingered them as a fence. But, it's certainly consistent with their behavior. No, the Iron Wheel is a Grade A witchhunt. They would be the evil option, if given.
Not that it's all that likely to ever happen... with them dropping the idea of justice system PvP...
...but--- I'd buy it as a sub-DLC! Even if it was the same area (though of course, that questline could -start- in hews bane, and then follow the iron wheel back to their homebase and continue the quest for justive. Possibly involving vigilantism and a suit of medium armor with a bat motiv, or a heavy plate mail with a skull shaped breastplate... oh, sorry, wrong universes!
)