BRING BACK OLD RAPID MANOEUVRES ZOS - Discussion

LazyLewis

I get why they thought it might be a good idea to remove it but there is almost no way to beat large groups any more in open field. Most people are gonna say "be more tactful and choke etc..."But why should we always have to TRY and run to a choke while 30 people are trying to kill 12 of you. Should 12 people be able to kill 30? YES they should. If they have the skill and the other group lacks.

The key to groups who do not run full raids before this patch was out manoeuvring them. Not running face in..it was stringing them out, holding them in the right place, placing the perfect siege, spreading and re-condensing at the perfect time but not now, you cannot do that any more because you cannot heal with rapids up and other various abilities. Now almost every large group wins against every smaller group. Skill is not an equation any more. Before this patch if we killed a full raid with our 12 man is that because of Overpowered mechanics or broken ZoS bugs etc...??? NO? Everyone has acess to the same skill and abilities and tactics in the game. It was about who executed them better. NOW THAT IS NOT THE STORY AND IS A PURE NUMBERS GAMES!

So Ive seen 15 DC hold off 40-50 EP at a breach because thats just pure choking! Yes! Well Done ZOS! Zergs can no longer run over keeps with pure numbers anymore thats fine! Thats great! BUT! No open field fighting is a pure numbers game and is destroyed in every essence because our 12 man can no way in hell get away from a 24 man group in open field to outplay them because its simply not possible any more. We cannot heal or cast abilities with in rapids anymore and has destroyed our entire dynamic. This will sadly be ignored by ZoS and the Dev's. They rarely listen to our opinions...I would bet every top competitive PvP guild in the game would want rapids back and HEY! At the end of the day EVERYONE has access to the same pool of skills and does not unbalance anything by returning rapids to its former state. Keep everything else the same...purge...siege...We don't care..Just give us back our rapids so we can competitively PvP

Master_Kas

Ppl disliked ballgroups more than those megazergs. Now lets see how medium and smaller deal with those .

Ballgroups was the only thing which could kill these huge zergs people stack these days.

Edit: forgot to say that another big zerg could also wipe a big zerg. Which is what we have now mostly on EU server, and basiclly no organized ballgroups. Ping and FPS is *** nontheless ^^

kuro-dono

Come to azura star pc eu to witness folks actually having fun due to lack of aoe blobs, small scale elite heroes or something between. no issues with any balling or bowling or zerging. its just army vs army. try to have fun instead of find excuse to beat 30 with 4 or 8 or 12 or what ever lesser number. all those nerfs on aoe skills are doing us favor for the sake of game performance.

oh yes! server today with epic battles all around the map and worst i saw ping drop to was 350 or something with all factions pop locked. quite awesome when everyone is just trying to have fun instead of tryharding too much.

OBVIOUSLY there was small scaling going aswell and ganking and all that other typical thing that kept happening normally at azura star before it turned into non cp.

+++ our chars are all supposed to be something wee more than just usual soldiers, we are heroes.

Zabus

No I like the new change, it stops the huge zergs from being invincible. Before the change zergs could just spam purge and rapids and they could stack flags and flip them with sheer numbers. Now that is not possible anymore, nor can they run out of our damage when we bomb them. This speed/heal run through you strat doesn't work anymore, and I'm absolutely loving it.

kuro-dono

xsfkxnub19_ESO wrote: »

No I like the new change, it stops the huge zergs from being invincible. Before the change zergs could just spam purge and rapids and they could stack flags and flip them with sheer numbers. Now that is not possible anymore, nor can they run out of our damage when we bomb them. This speed/heal run through you strat doesn't work anymore, and I'm absolutely loving it.

exacly as he says. Makes also player farming lot harder to do as in, you dont die ever and enemies die repeatedly due to lack of brain to understand that they will never have chance to win these guys. dont ask me how many times i been trying to tell folks to not follow these aoe spamming small scalers around trees and rocks with their rapids and caltrops working magic for them.

Fallewarrior

Zerging only got worse. Take a look at Trueflame & Ebony @ eu server..
It's just multiple pugs stacking on eachother. Small groups have no chance anymore because we can't kite like we used to.
Once big groups catch up you will just die because heavily outnumbered.

Please change rapids back to how they used to be..

Flake

Rapids are fine. You shouldn't be able to cast defensive skills while still being mobile. There are ways around it, people just haven't managed to work it out yet, give it time.

ToRelax

If you want to do something against zerging, then this is a good change, because it reduces the efficiency of adding more players into your group and run in relative proximity to each other, while also increasing the skill required for good movement on the battlefield, wich again helps the few who are actually good at it against the many who are not. Mobility is still very limited due to the charge snare though, and I think most can agree that needs to go as well.
If players have no tools to stop your 12 people, then obviously they can't do anything against 24+ either. And if that is not possible, what incentivizes them to not run in a group that size? Counters allow players to outplay their opponents, giving them the opportunity to prevail against larger numbers. When skilleffects do not have counters, like the old Maneuver, and the charges, it just frustrates those trying to win in any other way than bringing more numbers in.

Mojmir

the name of the game now is magicka NB with proxy det,and top it off with vicious death set, congrats you win PVP.

Master_Kas

Mojmir wrote: »

the name of the game now is magicka NB with proxy det,and top it off with vicious death set, congrats you win PVP.

Sorcerer seems good aswell of the magicka classes. I bolt over caltrops while rest of my group are snared and slayed behind me (specially the OP dks and templars ) Then I put a forward camp up

Mojmir

Master_Kas wrote: »

Mojmir wrote: »

the name of the game now is magicka NB with proxy det,and top it off with vicious death set, congrats you win PVP.

Sorcerer seems good aswell of the magicka classes. I bolt over caltrops while rest of my group are snared and slayed behind me (specially the OP dks and templars ) Then I put a forward camp up

i still have forward camps from long ago, this might solve the pvp issue of getting around,but rapids still bugs out on me,i get charged the resources but it doesnt fire off consistently.

zyk

Rapids was OP prior to 2.3. It's better balanced now and requires a little bit of intelligence to use. If I can manage rapids with a magicka build, I'm sure everyone else can figure it out.

Iyas

No new rapids is good

Zheg

Rapids is almost pointless now. I tend to rely more on momentum or shuffle (as an effing healer) than I do rapids from our stam guys when I'm in a group. Templars tend to notice the drawbacks of the rapids nerf more than any other class, hell, even our channeled focus removes rapids and that's just our self-armor buff -_-

So many are desperate for anything they see as anti-group or anti-zerg that they're willing to overlook something that's blatantly detrimental for the game as a whole and for all pvp styles.

frozywozy

I like the new rapids as they are. Bombard finally does something, about damn time. Please keep Maneuvers as it is. Finally keeps are not being rolled anymore in a matter of few minutes even with people defending it. People must actually consider opening an additional breach. The puzzle is finally getting resolved.

Another good way forward. That on top of the latency (ms) issues with too many players on the screen that got fixed with the several adjustments to LoS checks and abiliies with a large radius affecting an important amount of players.

Well done Zenimax and I hope we keep Maneuvers the way it is.

Zheg

frozywozy wrote: »

I like the new rapids as they are. Bombard finally does something, about damn time. Please keep Maneuvers as it is. Finally keeps are not being rolled anymore in a matter of few minutes even with people defending it. People must actually consider opening an additional breach. The puzzle is finally getting resolved.

Another good way forward. That on top of the latency (ms) issues with too many players on the screen that got fixed with the several adjustments to LoS checks and abiliies with a large radius affecting an important amount of players.

Well done Zenimax and I hope we keep Maneuvers the way it is.

The FPS and latency has gotten noticeably worse in this patch, what are you talking about? And I don't know about you, but the giant forward camp v forward camp fights at keeps now are resulting in more people at keeps on average than there were last patch. This patch is an absolute mess, how is it in any way deserving of praise?

timidobserver

It definitely gives a bigger advantage to numbers in open field. It makes medium(8-16) sized groups even less likely to defeat groups double or triple their size. Moving out of the path of server blobs is harder now. However, it can help against blobs in closed quarters like a keep or chokes.

frozywozy

Zheg wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

I like the new rapids as they are. Bombard finally does something, about damn time. Please keep Maneuvers as it is. Finally keeps are not being rolled anymore in a matter of few minutes even with people defending it. People must actually consider opening an additional breach. The puzzle is finally getting resolved.

Another good way forward. That on top of the latency (ms) issues with too many players on the screen that got fixed with the several adjustments to LoS checks and abiliies with a large radius affecting an important amount of players.

Well done Zenimax and I hope we keep Maneuvers the way it is.

The FPS and latency has gotten noticeably worse in this patch, what are you talking about? And I don't know about you, but the giant forward camp v forward camp fights at keeps now are resulting in more people at keeps on average than there were last patch. This patch is an absolute mess, how is it in any way deserving of praise?

Last patch, as soon as a large raid would appear in my radius, my ms would instantly go above 200-300. During a keep defense, with 40+ on the screen, my ping would go to 600ms with no groups engaging yet, just being in the same radius. The engagement of the ballgroup coming afterward would spike me up to 1.2k-2k ms.

With this new patch, my latency never goes above 200ms even with large amount of players on the screen. The lag still gets pretty bad when two 24men groups are engaging each other. This problem could be fixed if AOE caps would be removed and if people would discipline themselves to run smaller groups.

Regarding the framerates, I can now run the game with high graphics (from medium) and I even increased my view distance from 25 to 50 with a 4K resolution (3840x2160p)! This is a huge increase for me FPS wise on the 64bits client. Definitely improvements there aswell. I know that FPS and crashes don't affect every players the same way though. Depends of a whole lot of factors.

Back on topic, this nerf was intented to slow down 24men ball groups purge / maneuver spammers who run straight inside breaches without any penality cost. It works really well as we've seen several times already.

Regarding the forward camps, I personally wish camps could not be deployed more than once in the same area for X minutes. The Cyrodiil map could be separated with different zones just like that. This would avoid endless defenses and regrouping of 3/4 of the faction in one spot. Like what happened at Glademist the other day for 30mins straight.

Or simply use camps offensively only (never in the radius of any keep, friendly or not).

Derra

NO.

No discussion needed.

Satiar

Derra wrote: »

NO.

No discussion needed.

Let me guess, you play a sorc

Didgerion

LazyLewis wrote: »

I get why they thought it might be a good idea to remove it but there is almost no way to beat large groups any more in open field. Most people are gonna say "be more tactful and choke etc..."But why should we always have to TRY and run to a choke while 30 people are trying to kill 12 of you. Should 12 people be able to kill 30? YES they should. If they have the skill and the other group lacks.

The key to groups who do not run full raids before this patch was out manoeuvring them. Not running face in..it was stringing them out, holding them in the right place, placing the perfect siege, spreading and re-condensing at the perfect time but not now, you cannot do that any more because you cannot heal with rapids up and other various abilities. Now almost every large group wins against every smaller group. Skill is not an equation any more. Before this patch if we killed a full raid with our 12 man is that because of Overpowered mechanics or broken ZoS bugs etc...??? NO? Everyone has acess to the same skill and abilities and tactics in the game. It was about who executed them better. NOW THAT IS NOT THE STORY AND IS A PURE NUMBERS GAMES!

So Ive seen 15 DC hold off 40-50 EP at a breach because thats just pure choking! Yes! Well Done ZOS! Zergs can no longer run over keeps with pure numbers anymore thats fine! Thats great! BUT! No open field fighting is a pure numbers game and is destroyed in every essence because our 12 man can no way in hell get away from a 24 man group in open field to outplay them because its simply not possible any more. We cannot heal or cast abilities with in rapids anymore and has destroyed our entire dynamic. This will sadly be ignored by ZoS and the Dev's. They rarely listen to our opinions...I would bet every top competitive PvP guild in the game would want rapids back and HEY! At the end of the day EVERYONE has access to the same pool of skills and does not unbalance anything by returning rapids to its former state. Keep everything else the same...purge...siege...We don't care..Just give us back our rapids so we can competitively PvP

Here is an idea that might work.

If you are 12 people, then retreat as soon as you notice the other group, watch for their intentions. If they are after you then let 3 players from your group cloak up and detonate that formation from behind, if they are still chasing you then one more detonation ...and one more....if they stopped then mission is accomplished....you don't need the old rapids just new tactics.

Iyas

Satiar wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

NO.

No discussion needed.

Let me guess, you play a sorc

Let me guess, you play a ballgrp

Master_Kas

Iyas wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

NO.

No discussion needed.

Let me guess, you play a sorc

Let me guess, you play a ballgrp

When will you realize it's not _ONLY_ ballgroups who have a problem with this change ?

Satiar

Iyas wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

NO.

No discussion needed.

Let me guess, you play a sorc

Let me guess, you play a ballgrp

You do realize the OP plays in a smaller group, right? 8-10 mostly? I know it's going to be difficult to reply with something other than "OMG BALL GROUP" but please make the effort.

strikeback1247

Satiar wrote: »

Iyas wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

NO.

No discussion needed.

Let me guess, you play a sorc

Let me guess, you play a ballgrp

You do realize the OP plays in a smaller group, right? 8-10 mostly? I know it's going to be difficult to reply with something other than "OMG BALL GROUP" but please make the effort.

OMFG BALL GROUP

There.

Iyas

Satiar wrote: »

Iyas wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

NO.

No discussion needed.

Let me guess, you play a sorc

Let me guess, you play a ballgrp

You do realize the OP plays in a smaller group, right? 8-10 mostly? I know it's going to be difficult to reply with something other than "OMG BALL GROUP" but please make the effort.

Same thing for you. Don't expect a good answer if you ask snippy questions

Cinbri

Remove one of the best changes? No, thx.

Satiar

Iyas wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Iyas wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

NO.

No discussion needed.

Let me guess, you play a sorc

Let me guess, you play a ballgrp

You do realize the OP plays in a smaller group, right? 8-10 mostly? I know it's going to be difficult to reply with something other than "OMG BALL GROUP" but please make the effort.

Same thing for you. Don't expect a good answer if you ask snippy questions

I didn't ask you.

And the point of it is that a sorc Doesn't Need maneuvers so it's hilarious to see one going "lol no" in this convo.

Iyas

Satiar wrote: »

Iyas wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Iyas wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

NO.

No discussion needed.

Let me guess, you play a sorc

Let me guess, you play a ballgrp

You do realize the OP plays in a smaller group, right? 8-10 mostly? I know it's going to be difficult to reply with something other than "OMG BALL GROUP" but please make the effort.

Same thing for you. Don't expect a good answer if you ask snippy questions

I didn't ask you.

And the point of it is that a sorc Doesn't Need maneuvers so it's hilarious to see one going "lol no" in this convo.

You do realize that Derra and I are in the same guild? But who cares. flame on little ball grp guy

Satiar

Iyas wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Iyas wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Iyas wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

NO.

No discussion needed.

Let me guess, you play a sorc

Let me guess, you play a ballgrp

You do realize the OP plays in a smaller group, right? 8-10 mostly? I know it's going to be difficult to reply with something other than "OMG BALL GROUP" but please make the effort.

Same thing for you. Don't expect a good answer if you ask snippy questions

I didn't ask you.

And the point of it is that a sorc Doesn't Need maneuvers so it's hilarious to see one going "lol no" in this convo.

You do realize that Derra and I are in the same guild? But who cares. flame on little ball grp guy

He's a sorc who doesn't need maneuvers arguing no one else needs then either. It's a bad argument.

Iyas

Satiar wrote: »

Iyas wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Iyas wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Iyas wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

NO.

No discussion needed.

Let me guess, you play a sorc

Let me guess, you play a ballgrp

You do realize the OP plays in a smaller group, right? 8-10 mostly? I know it's going to be difficult to reply with something other than "OMG BALL GROUP" but please make the effort.

Same thing for you. Don't expect a good answer if you ask snippy questions

I didn't ask you.

And the point of it is that a sorc Doesn't Need maneuvers so it's hilarious to see one going "lol no" in this convo.

You do realize that Derra and I are in the same guild? But who cares. flame on little ball grp guy

He's a sorc who doesn't need maneuvers arguing no one else needs then either. It's a bad argument.

ok now for you:

hes a sorc who runs with a small scale grp 2- 6 ppl and most of the time hes the only sorc in grp.

We play with stamplar/ mageplar, stam dk, mag dk, nbs and we dont need rapid.