Proximity Detonation - Its time for a serious disscussion ZOS

GRxKnight

leepalmer95 wrote: »

GRxKnight wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Just wait until people realise alchemist isn't only good for proxy.

Then you'll have stamina snipers with 5k wpn dmg, 45k stamina, with an empowered guarantee snipe with 190%~ Crit dmg modifier. From 54+ meters away.

All hail the 24k tooltip snipes...

It'll one shot my hardened ward...and then I'll recast it

It'll stun you, then the next one will crit for 24k.

Gl.

I mean idk about you but when i break cc im holding block so Idk about 24k...isn't theory pvp awesome?

HeroOfNone

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Just wait until people realise alchemist isn't only good for proxy.

Then you'll have stamina snipers with 5k wpn dmg, 45k stamina, with an empowered guarantee snipe with 190%~ Crit dmg modifier. From 54+ meters away.

All hail the 24k tooltip snipes...

You forgot about the DK's molten Armaments to add even more fun to the mix =D. I think most are more concerned though that prox det takes on groups or single just fine, low draw backs, while bow single targets and has poor AOE capability if there are multiple. Also, vicious death, which will be distributed out next patch, is magicka based and will make this take down any two or more people down quick. Seems little reason go with other abilities as a result.

Xeven

Rinaldo the last thing we need to be worried about is s*** doing too much damage. People need to die faster. The current battle spirit is absurd.

You can't compare crushing shock to proxy. For one you can do 8 crushing shocks for every 1 prox det. One is sustained DPS the other is burst. Theyre not even in the same category.

I've already shown that the single target damage vs someone who is not a scrub is manageable. You start taking away single target burst from magicka users, and you'll never kill anything.

The problem with this game is not proxy, it's FAR from proxy, and you're wasting your *** time talking about proxy.

GRxKnight

Xeven wrote: »

Rinaldo the last thing we need to be worried about is s*** doing too much damage. People need to die faster. The current battle spirit is absurd.

You can't compare crushing shock to proxy. For one you can do 8 crushing shocks for every 1 prox det. One is sustained DPS the other is burst. Theyre not even in the same category.

I've already shown that the single target damage vs someone who is not a scrub is manageable. You start taking away single target burst from magicka users, and you'll never kill anything.

The problem with this game is not proxy, it's FAR from proxy, and you're wasting your *** time talking about proxy.

Completely agree...if proxy gets reworked there's literally no reason to play as magicka other than Templar healer...the only reason my characters are magicka is because i like the aspect of a burst combo with proxy instead of being a potato spamming Wrecking Blow or steel tornado

HeroOfNone

Xeven wrote: »

Rinaldo the last thing we need to be worried about is s*** doing too much damage. People need to die faster. The current battle spirit is absurd.

You can't compare crushing shock to proxy. For one you can do 8 crushing shocks for every 1 prox det. One is sustained DPS the other is burst. Theyre not even in the same category.

I've already shown that the single target damage vs someone who is not a scrub is manageable. You start taking away single target burst from magicka users, and you'll never kill anything.

The problem with this game is not proxy, it's FAR from proxy, and you're wasting your *** time talking about proxy.

Why do we need folks dying faster? Seems we need to address the rampant regenerations that let them live forever. Lets not make this Counter Strike:ESO where you turn a corner and you're dead from a random headshot.

=P

Xeven

HeroOfNone wrote: »

Why do we need folks dying faster? Seems we need to address the rampant regenerations that let them live forever.

What you just said, basically, was "Why do we need folks dying faster? We should nerf regen so that they die faster."

It doesnt matter if you nerf mitigation or increase damage output, they both achieve the same result. They are essentially the same thing. If you nerf mitigation you are indirectly increasing DPS. If you buff DPS you are indirectly decreasing mitigation.

leepalmer95

HeroOfNone wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Just wait until people realise alchemist isn't only good for proxy.

Then you'll have stamina snipers with 5k wpn dmg, 45k stamina, with an empowered guarantee snipe with 190%~ Crit dmg modifier. From 54+ meters away.

All hail the 24k tooltip snipes...

You forgot about the DK's molten Armaments to add even more fun to the mix =D. I think most are more concerned though that prox det takes on groups or single just fine, low draw backs, while bow single targets and has poor AOE capability if there are multiple. Also, vicious death, which will be distributed out next patch, is magicka based and will make this take down any two or more people down quick. Seems little reason go with other abilities as a result.

Yeah, well proxy won't do more than 7k on it's own, even on the most max dmg burst build if the person who is being hit knows how to gear for pvp right.

Run more than 20k hp and you won't be able to be burst down with a pure proxy/tether combo or such.

This patch it's no longer fine to run around with 18k-20k hp anymore.

olsborg

Agreed, proxy hits too hard on few ppl, specially singletarget.

HeroOfNone

Xeven wrote: »

HeroOfNone wrote: »

Why do we need folks dying faster? Seems we need to address the rampant regenerations that let them live forever.

What you just said, basically, was "Why do we need folks dying faster? We should nerf regen so that they die faster."

It doesnt matter if you nerf mitigation or increase damage output, they both achieve the same result. They are essentially the same thing. If you nerf mitigation you are indirectly increasing DPS. If you buff DPS you are indirectly decreasing mitigation.

Actually I'd say buff mitigation by about 50% and reduce regens & resource generating abilities by 50%, adjust those numbers till the right feel is given. Gives reason to have a tanky build but puts permanent blockers and low regen builds a disadvantage. The reason you can't increase mitigation now is regens would let folks survive hours without dropping block or health ebough without a 12 man dog pile.

leepalmer95 wrote: »

HeroOfNone wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Just wait until people realise alchemist isn't only good for proxy.

Then you'll have stamina snipers with 5k wpn dmg, 45k stamina, with an empowered guarantee snipe with 190%~ Crit dmg modifier. From 54+ meters away.

All hail the 24k tooltip snipes...

You forgot about the DK's molten Armaments to add even more fun to the mix =D. I think most are more concerned though that prox det takes on groups or single just fine, low draw backs, while bow single targets and has poor AOE capability if there are multiple. Also, vicious death, which will be distributed out next patch, is magicka based and will make this take down any two or more people down quick. Seems little reason go with other abilities as a result.

Yeah, well proxy won't do more than 7k on it's own, even on the most max dmg burst build if the person who is being hit knows how to gear for pvp right.

Run more than 20k hp and you won't be able to be burst down with a pure proxy/tether combo or such.

This patch it's no longer fine to run around with 18k-20k hp anymore.

Still seeing crit of it hitting hard on solo targets, which is part of the OP'S post is about. That along with its time delay makes it a generic velocious curse on some classes with already high burst. I guess the other way to look at is what draw backs to it would make you want to run an thing but this inside any magicka build, single or group?

Tsar_Bogatyr

because <10 players doesn't make it pvp but an rp event in cyro. please join bigger grps to make pvp more viable for everyone in the game

Xsorus

Number 1 - I disagree with; I think the range is perfect

Number 2 - I agree with..They need to reduce the damage of the ability so hitting 1 or 2 people isn't that much..But anything past that starts adding up a crap ton... If it hits say 16 people..It should absolutely DECIMATE that group....but if it hits say 6 it shouldn't be that bad....

Ampnode

So far the reasonable counters the defenders of this skill have stated:

Move out of the circle
- You realize how big the radius is, right? By all means move out of the circle, but there's a special skill in the game called a gap closer. How any of you think of this is a valid tactic is beyond me.

Block
- Don't get me wrong, this counter is effective at some points in PvP; however, decent players will CC you into their combo. Once that happens you're either dead or are fighting to get your health back up from 10%.

These are somewhat valid counters, but they're mostly effective on a one versus one scenario. Ever see 6+ prox dets? Ever been in side that ****storm? Yeah, blocking won't be too much of a valid option when you're getting hit with 5K+ while blocking. Those of you who are telling us to learn to play just seriously need to step out of your large scale groups for once. You can't possibly think that an AoE bomb doing 8K+ single target, which is really meant for dealing damage to groups, is a healthy way of gameplay.

Essentially, the damage needs to be halved of what it is currently. Range is okay, imo.

Soulac

Tsar_Bogatyr wrote: »

because <10 players doesn't make it pvp but an rp event in cyro. please join bigger grps to make pvp more viable for everyone in the game

How about no.

Minno

Xeven wrote: »

HeroOfNone wrote: »

Why do we need folks dying faster? Seems we need to address the rampant regenerations that let them live forever.

What you just said, basically, was "Why do we need folks dying faster? We should nerf regen so that they die faster."

It doesnt matter if you nerf mitigation or increase damage output, they both achieve the same result. They are essentially the same thing. If you nerf mitigation you are indirectly increasing DPS. If you buff DPS you are indirectly decreasing mitigation.

It's really not about the deaths. It's about providing viable and effective spells with proper counters/tradeoffs.

If a spell exists that surpasses most class/weapon skills & ultimates in pvp effectivness, then we cannot guarantee ZOS will be able to objectively balance the classes when that time comes to fully review.

At single target, all classes should have access to a unique time delay and/or burst spell. But not one whose design intention is also supposed to burst down large groups of people; its conflicting.

Xeven

The argument in this thread is that single target proxy damage is too high. The math doesnt support that, and the reality in game doesnt support that. Given Legendary Nirnhoned and 5 Light Armor with a top-notch 12k tooltip:

Jhunn

Xeven wrote: »

Rinaldo the last thing we need to be worried about is s*** doing too much damage. People need to die faster. The current battle spirit is absurd.

You can't compare crushing shock to proxy. For one you can do 8 crushing shocks for every 1 prox det. One is sustained DPS the other is burst. Theyre not even in the same category.

I've already shown that the single target damage vs someone who is not a scrub is manageable. You start taking away single target burst from magicka users, and you'll never kill anything.

The problem with this game is not proxy, it's FAR from proxy, and you're wasting your *** time talking about proxy.

Truest thing written in this thread. +100

Ampnode

Xeven wrote: »

The argument in this thread is that single target proxy damage is too high. The math doesnt support that, and the reality in game doesnt support that. Given Legendary Nirnhoned and 5 Light Armor with a top-notch:

And somehow I'm still getting hit with 8K+ with these things. Fengrush's magblade hit me with a whopping 10.2K single target on me yesterday. Plus the 7.6K Concealed Weapon, and then I died... Maybe I'll need to learn to play against this some more.

Xeven

Ampnode wrote: »

Maybe I'll need to learn to play against this some more.

Clearly.

EDIT:
And you got ganked. He was buffed to the moon, likely using Alchemist. I'd squash him like a bug if the attempt failed because he is a glass cannon designed to do one thing. Suicide bomb people. His build works. That's what its supposed to do. You just got rekt son.

Nerf Fengrush not proxy.

Morozov

Etaniel wrote: »

Proxy det should deal zero damage if you hit less than 6 targets, the current damage is fine imo. Also add something like a mana burn if you hit less than 6 people, or if you refresh the cast before it explodes, that way it keeps lagtrains from using it.

You now have a zergbuster skill that is not usable by zergs and that comes with a drawback if you spam it

mana burn, or stam burn. Possibly at a health loss? It goes off and you go with it?

AbraXuSeXile

Something has to be done about deto, it was better with the windup it had but in this patch with damage scaling its ridiculously no skill and too mych damage, geared my pve char to pvp first time i played nag nb and wrecking groups.

Zerg bombing used to be fun when it was hard

leepalmer95

AbraXuSeXile wrote: »

Something has to be done about deto, it was better with the windup it had but in this patch with damage scaling its ridiculously no skill and too mych damage, geared my pve char to pvp first time i played nag nb and wrecking groups.

Zerg bombing used to be fun when it was hard

What would be the difference with a wind-up, people would just take 1.1s longer to bomb you.

Just wait until you find a group thats not a bunch of pve's and you attempt to bomb them and get them to 35%~ then heal and kill you.

Yolokin_Swagonborn

In the now famous AOE Caps "Discussion,"

@Wrobel said:

We want AoE abilities to be useful in PvP. That being said, we don’t want them to be the end all be all - single target abilities should also be useful. The intention of the caps and falloff is that AoE damage will be able to outpace healing in large group battles, but not dominate it.

i]Emphasis Added[/i

Wrobel, if that is your design philosophy, then in order to prevent AoE's in general from becoming the "end all and be all" you have instead created ONE SINGULAR SKILL that has become the very thing you claim to be trying to prevent.

Proximity Detonation IS PvP now. You want single target abilities to be useful too? Well, you are in luck! Prox Det is also a great single target ability! Its the one go-to skill that every organized group, every solo-er, every zerg and pug either uses or tries to mitigate now that everyone can earn it so quickly. It will get even worse when everyone is fully geared with vicious death. It reduces skill and build diversity even further.

Just remove the inevitable det morph, make a duplicate stamina variant of prox det and limit everyone's bars to one ability. PvP in a nutshell.

Wreuntzylla

Is this only a sorc complaint then?

Prox det is not killing you through a shield stack of 15-20k. Something like Prox det + curse + dawnbreaker + insta frags is bursting you through the shields and 10k health. Use seven impen and 60 points into resistant to be able to survive the burst without blocking (although the execute that follows is a &^*$%).

Even with no impen you can avoid the burst. In 1v1, listen to the proxy sound as it increases in frequency, and when you hear the 6.5-7sec frequency, move into your opponent and roll dodge forward, or if not face to face, just roll dodge backward. If you are cc'd prior to that, you have time to break free and block.

If you are deaf I fully support your complaint.

Xsorus

I do find it funny that i've instant killed a few sorcs who've let their shields get slightly low..and since they all run like no impen cause they get free impen with just having their op shields up...they instant die from the Burst...

Meanwhile I eat Prox Dets left and right solo...and I don't die from it because i have to stack Impen so I don't die to those hits.

however I do think Prox Det needs a reduction solo and for less numbers....

Zabus

Highest I've gotten hit for is 7k. I don't even wear impen, also it's about the only way to get past those cheesy shield stacking sorcs. How else are people supposed to get through 20k+ shields. And then of course sorcs complain about proxy because they wear no impen under those shields lol.

leepalmer95

xsfkxnub19_ESO wrote: »

Highest I've gotten hit for is 7k. I don't even wear impen, also it's about the only way to get past those cheesy shield stacking sorcs. How else are people supposed to get through 20k+ shields. And then of course sorcs complain about proxy because they wear no impen under those shields lol.

Hardened + Harness Shouldn't stack.

Xsorus

xsfkxnub19_ESO wrote: »

Highest I've gotten hit for is 7k. I don't even wear impen, also it's about the only way to get past those cheesy shield stacking sorcs. How else are people supposed to get through 20k+ shields. And then of course sorcs complain about proxy because they wear no impen under those shields lol.

That's bout as hard as I've been hit as well.. But I'm mostly by myself... Though I swear I died to two ID and 3 prox dets from 5 different people on my kill log lol...

MrBM

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

@Wrobel

Ok for the record, im in support of Proxy Det being very good against large numbers and being very good against zergs. Thats the whole point of the skill, to hit multiple people hard. However, that's simply not the case. As it stands right now, Proxy Det is being used as a viable Single Target spell and simply put the spell does too much damage to 1-3 people that it no longer is fulfilling the purpose the spell was designed for.

Proxy Det needs some adjustments.

1. Proxy Det range needs to be reduced from 8 meters to 6 meters - Right now the range on this skill is simply too much. Its comparable to the days Impulse had a huge range on it, Impulse is still perfectly good with a 6 meter range, so this will by no means kill the skill. The fact Invis can hide the Proxy Red circle it makes sense to reduce this slighty, 8 meters is far too much.

2. Proxy Det base damage needs to be reduced by 80% and the damage multiplier increased to make it effective against 5 or more players The skills base damage is too high. Its being used as a single target skill and its also being used to one shot 1-3 players, this is just plain broken. 1-3 players isn't a zerg and Proxy Det shouldn't be one shotting such small numbers of players. Its far too effective against 1-3 players. Reducing the damage and increasing the multiplier makes it function as a zerg busting tool. Simply put, unless your hitting 5 players Proxy Det should not do very much damage.

The ranged morph of this spell has a huge 1.8 sec cast time which is a real downside leaving the caster vulnerable and gives the target plenty of time to simply block, Proxy Det and its red circle can be hidden by invis and used to one shot 1-3 players who are not shield stacking sorcs, this is imply broken.

This needs to be fixed, Proxy Det was intended to be a zerg buster, not one of the best single target burst spells in the game.

if your not hitting atleast 4-5 people, it should not be doing large amounts of damage. Right now its simply broken.

How about no. Just go away. Do you want it to be zerg zerg zerg zerg zerg all the time? What your saying will help zergs out the way it is on this patch needs to stay. If not how about we just go back to 20% in PvP instead of 50% cuz zergs didn't like that at all either. If you die to a proxy and only you then it's your fault for not blocking or avoiding it some how or not having your points spend accordingly or not enough spell resist. maybe it's just a L2P here.

Well after reading some of the OPs replies he clearly needs to L2P. I don't even have any Impen at the moment and never have I died to anybody's proxy alone. Sure you can combo with proxy but hey if you let them combo you with it then that's another L2P issue right?

RinaldoGandolphi

MrBM wrote: »

How about no. Just go away. Do you want it to be zerg zerg zerg zerg zerg all the time? What your saying will help zergs out the way it is on this patch needs to stay. If not how about we just go back to 20% in PvP instead of 50% cuz zergs didn't like that at all either. If you die to a proxy and only you then it's your fault for not blocking or avoiding it some how or not having your points spend accordingly or not enough spell resist. maybe it's just a L2P here.

Well after reading some of the OPs replies he clearly needs to L2P. I don't even have any Impen at the moment and never have I died to anybody's proxy alone. Sure you can combo with proxy but hey if you let them combo you with it then that's another L2P issue right?

Its clearly obvious you didn't read or you simply don't understand the context of the conversation. This discussion has ZERO to do with:

1. Dying to Proxy Det
2. Wearing Impen
3. Or any counters to Proxy Det

What the Conversation IS about is:

Proxy Det As an AOE(thats what the skill is) is too effective in single target scenarios.

AOE skills are not intended to be effective against single targets, and with the exception of Proxy Det every single AOE skill in the game is horribly inefficient resource wise to damage output when used against a single target but become the best skills in the game in damage output to resource cost when used against multiple enemies.

As for the rest and the snide L2P comments with no basis

Xeven

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Proxy Det As an AOE(thats what the skill is) is too effective in single target scenarios.

So, you're saying 4-5k single target, unblocked, is too high? Why do you think it's too high, and how do you propose a magicka templar/nightblade for example burst down high end players? You only complain. You do not provide any solutions for your imaginary problems, let alone the problems you would create.