KISS: attributes overhaul

RAGUNAnoOne

A basic overhaul idea

step 1 decouple magicka and stamina from damage and with a select few exceptions listed below the moves only scale off SD or WD
step 2 attribute points can be put into SD, WD, or mitigation
step 3 rebalance the content to reflect the DPS loss.

Exceptions: and special mechanics: shields with the exception of sorc shields and LA shield will scale off health. healing moves scale off the resource they use not SD or WD. Ultimates combine both the highest damage and highest resource (health included) for calculation. Some SB skills scale off of or use health in damage calculation. many Bow skills scale of the resource more than WD. destruction staves skills scale more with resources than SD.

What do you think, @Gidorick @tinythinker ?

Bossdonut

Ryan Seacrest sucks

Thevampirenight

Well, maybe they need to change some things, Maybe like giving five attributes, Strength, Intellegince, Agility, luck and willpower. I would like to see the renaming and changes to attributes to something more like oblivion's system.
Strength- improves damage all stamina abilities and weapons.
Agility- to increase speed of attacks and jumping and atheletics as well as increases stamina pool.
Intelligence- increases magical pool.
Willpower- increases health as well as increasing magical attacks with all magical abilites.
Luck- improves chances at finding gold rare items, fishing and hunting maybe a chance for a kill to count as a double kill meaning if you kill a zombie it counts as killing two zombies on achievement. Also increases chance for crit.

Also another mechanic needed for the game flanking damage, taking extra damage by attacking from behind- only armor like medium and heavy can give some ability to reduce flanking damage, flanking damage can't be blocked by a normal round shield, only by abilities that cover from behind. Like dragon shield abilty the dragonknights have that form armor of spikes on the back of your character, that should protect against flanking.
The shields the sorcerer has like the ward shield ability should protect against flanking. But flanking needs to be a thing so it can balance out the game.

WalkingLegacy

You want the game to be truly kiss, get rid of champion point system and fold those values into the character levels.

Thevampirenight

WalkingLegacy wrote: »

You want the game to be truly kiss, get rid of champion point system and fold those values into the character levels.

Well having the champion system is nice but they also need to do something with attributes what I posted up above is what I think they should do, not only to make it feel more like elder scrolls but also give more choices and balance, I would like to see them change the attributes, Also having a luck attribute would be nice as well.

Gidorick

I think that would be a good way to allow players to better tailor their characters to their own specific play style. Decoupling damage from Stamina and Magicka would mean adding an attribute point to Stamina or Magicka would mean an increase in that resource ONLY...

I actually have a concept that marries sort of what you are saying Raguna and what @Thevampirenight suggested.

My[url="(http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/199791/perpetual-independent-end-game-level-progression-concept/p1 ) "] Perpetual Independent End Game Progression concept [/url]suggested that sub-attributes be unlocked after a player reaches level 80. (I STILL think converting Vet Ranks to regular levels would be the best move for the long term health of ESO - http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/174148/level-50-80-vr-1-16-replacement-a-new-ish-concept/p1)... These sub attributes would be:

Gidorick wrote:

The Sub-Attributes would be:

• Magicka
  • Intelligence (+ Spell Damage)
  • Luck (+ Spell Critical)
  • Personality (+ Spell Resistance)
• Health
  • Willpower (+Magicka Recovery)
  • Constitution (+Health Recovery)
  • Endurance (+ Stamina Recovery)
• Stamina
  • Strength (+ Weapon Damage)
  • Speed (+ Weapon Critical)
  • Agility (+ Armor)

With the Sub-Attribute system, players would now increase their Damage, Critical, Resistance, and Recovery attributes one at a time on a more granular level. This progression would allow players to create the exact character they desire. It’s important to note that each sub-attribute point would raise the Sub-Attribute by a very small amount since this progression would be in conjunction with the champion system and would increase the base stats to which the champion system and enchantments provides buffs.

Note that there is no means to directly increase Max Magicka, Max health, or Max Stamina using the Sub-Attributes. This is another power mitigation design so that all players, post level 80, would be on an equal playing field when it comes to how much Magicka, Health, and Stamina they have available to them from the leveling system.

Taken from here: (http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/199791/perpetual-independent-end-game-level-progression-concept/p1 )

I could see this type of system being applied from level 1, which I wouldn't be adverse to at all...

Speely

Gidorick wrote: »

I think that would be a good way to allow players to better tailor their characters to their own specific play style. Decoupling damage from Stamina and Magicka would mean adding an attribute point to Stamina or Magicka would mean an increase in that resource ONLY...

I actually have a concept that marries sort of what you are saying Raguna and what @Thevampirenight suggested.

My[url="(http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/199791/perpetual-independent-end-game-level-progression-concept/p1 ) "] Perpetual Independent End Game Progression concept [/url]suggested that sub-attributes be unlocked after a player reaches level 80. (I STILL think converting Vet Ranks to regular levels would be the best move for the long term health of ESO - http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/174148/level-50-80-vr-1-16-replacement-a-new-ish-concept/p1)... These sub attributes would be:

Gidorick wrote:

The Sub-Attributes would be:

• Magicka
  • Intelligence (+ Spell Damage)
  • Luck (+ Spell Critical)
  • Personality (+ Spell Resistance)
• Health
  • Willpower (+Magicka Recovery)
  • Constitution (+Health Recovery)
  • Endurance (+ Stamina Recovery)
• Stamina
  • Strength (+ Weapon Damage)
  • Speed (+ Weapon Critical)
  • Agility (+ Armor)

With the Sub-Attribute system, players would now increase their Damage, Critical, Resistance, and Recovery attributes one at a time on a more granular level. This progression would allow players to create the exact character they desire. It’s important to note that each sub-attribute point would raise the Sub-Attribute by a very small amount since this progression would be in conjunction with the champion system and would increase the base stats to which the champion system and enchantments provides buffs.

Note that there is no means to directly increase Max Magicka, Max health, or Max Stamina using the Sub-Attributes. This is another power mitigation design so that all players, post level 80, would be on an equal playing field when it comes to how much Magicka, Health, and Stamina they have available to them from the leveling system.

Taken from here: (http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/199791/perpetual-independent-end-game-level-progression-concept/p1 )

I could see this type of system being applied from level 1, which I wouldn't be adverse to at all...

I really like the direction of this idea. It's a nice model at a glance. I certainly miss the more granular level of customization that more stats provide. Having three stats is pretty silly to me... Morrowind and even Oblivion had more in-depth levels of customization. The Skyrim effect of streamlining stats really does no favors to a game based on "play as you want."

Mojmir

Thevampirenight wrote: »

Well, maybe they need to change some things, Maybe like giving five attributes, Strength, Intellegince, Agility, luck and willpower. I would like to see the renaming and changes to attributes to something more like oblivion's system.
Strength- improves damage all stamina abilities and weapons.
Agility- to increase speed of attacks and jumping and atheletics as well as increases stamina pool.
Intelligence- increases magical pool.
Willpower- increases health as well as increasing magical attacks with all magical abilites.
Luck- improves chances at finding gold rare items, fishing and hunting maybe a chance for a kill to count as a double kill meaning if you kill a zombie it counts as killing two zombies on achievement. Also increases chance for crit.

Also another mechanic needed for the game flanking damage, taking extra damage by attacking from behind- only armor like medium and heavy can give some ability to reduce flanking damage, flanking damage can't be blocked by a normal round shield, only by abilities that cover from behind. Like dragon shield abilty the dragonknights have that form armor of spikes on the back of your character, that should protect against flanking.
The shields the sorcerer has like the ward shield ability should protect against flanking. But flanking needs to be a thing so it can balance out the game.

please for the love of everything holy no luck stat, they tried this in UO and it was pointless and gimmicky,im fine with other stats though.

dodgehopper_ESO

I agree with the idea of removing an attribute from its damage output. Its a big part of the problem they are having with game balance.

Speely

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

I agree with the idea of removing an attribute from its damage output. Its a big part of the problem they are having with game balance.

Pretty much. Making players focus on damage, max resource amount, and recovery seperately would add a lot to the game. Having all three so closely integrated under one stat is extremely limiting and absolutely makes any real attempt at balance a fool's errand from the start. When any ONE variable governs so much, anything affecting said variable has very potent consequences. Splitting things up a bit more allows for balancing at more specific levels and thus makes iterative changes easier to manage and less likely to become "overbalanced."

DanielMaxwell

while I do not object to the ideas , I would like to point out that none of the ones put forth actually make things simple . they add a level of complexity that (sadly IMHO) many of the current MMO's are removing .

Mojmir

if they did away with the damage based on stats it would make hybrid builds viable.

DanielMaxwell

Mojmir wrote: »

if they did away with the damage based on stats it would make hybrid builds viable.

that it might it could also make the game play slightly more challenging

Gidorick

DanielMaxwell wrote: »

while I do not object to the ideas , I would like to point out that none of the ones put forth actually make things simple . they add a level of complexity that (sadly IMHO) many of the current MMO's are removing .

hehe... Yea, I'm totally against the simplification of mechanics @DanielMaxwell . When you simply the tools available you take away player options and agency.

Vangy

RAGUNAnoOne wrote: »

A basic overhaul idea

step 1 decouple magicka and stamina from damage and with a select few exceptions listed below the moves only scale off SD or WD
step 2 attribute points can be put into SD, WD, or mitigation
step 3 rebalance the content to reflect the DPS loss.

Exceptions: and special mechanics: shields with the exception of sorc shields and LA shield will scale off health. healing moves scale off the resource they use not SD or WD. Ultimates combine both the highest damage and highest resource (health included) for calculation. Some SB skills scale off of or use health in damage calculation. many Bow skills scale of the resource more than WD. destruction staves skills scale more with resources than SD.

What do you think, @Gidorick @tinythinker ?

the idea is decent but I don't like the details.

Shields scaling off health except sorcs... Ok.

Ultimates combine the highest damage and resource... Already being done so ok.

S&B scaling off health for some skills... Sure. Much needed buff for real tanks. However a nice slap in the face for stamina duelling builds that focus on damage while using SnB for blocking while leaving magicka builds such as magicka dks relatively unaffected since all they need is invasion for a gap closer since chains still sucks.

Bow scale off resource? Why the f? Stam classes have a much smaller resource pool compared to magicka. My sorc has 45k magicka and my imperial dk has 40k stam... So NO. No more nerfs to stam please. This would hit stam Dps hard. Values for Wp needs to be adjusted for bow.

Destro staves scale off resource more then sp? Again why? Magicka has insane pools while stamina has smaller resource pools due to things like mages guild Passives. Again indirect buff to magicka ranged in comparison with the bow scenario which is utterly not needed.

Healing scales off max resource.... Again buff to magicka while nerf to stamina since any kind of magicka build has innately around 5k more resource then any stamina build. Even the ones running double kena and full spell power have like 45k magicka. Stamina heals would be hit harder then magicka heals. So no.... It's a solid nerf to my kitty kat stam nb who only has 38k stamina.

How about anything that has to do with non-s&b and non-shield, scales off either sp/Wp. Ie: all damage and all healing will scale of Wp/sp. You can have a slight rebalancing of destro staff/bow Wp/sp revising. Max resources only have a part to play in ultimates and resource management? How would u like that?

TLDR: a lot of the stamina vs magicka balance in this game comes from the fact that magicka builds have much larger resource pools while stamina has much higher Wp damage compared to spell power of magicka classes. Even this is circumvented by things like sorc running dual swords. This needs to be balanced before resources can be decoupled from damage and making healing based of resources etc.

Speely

Gidorick wrote: »

DanielMaxwell wrote: »

while I do not object to the ideas , I would like to point out that none of the ones put forth actually make things simple . they add a level of complexity that (sadly IMHO) many of the current MMO's are removing .

hehe... Yea, I'm totally against the simplification of mechanics @DanielMaxwell . When you simply the tools available you take away player options and agency.

This is kind of an important point to me. In a MMO where players are expected to spend literally HUNDREDS of hours playing one game, simplifying things is simply not needed. It's not like players aren't smart enough to learn the complexities of a real stat-based system when they are playing for such long periods. Adding sophistication and complexity merely gives them more variables with which to play.

RAGUNAnoOne

Vangy wrote: »

RAGUNAnoOne wrote: »

A basic overhaul idea

step 1 decouple magicka and stamina from damage and with a select few exceptions listed below the moves only scale off SD or WD
step 2 attribute points can be put into SD, WD, or mitigation
step 3 rebalance the content to reflect the DPS loss.

Exceptions: and special mechanics: shields with the exception of sorc shields and LA shield will scale off health. healing moves scale off the resource they use not SD or WD. Ultimates combine both the highest damage and highest resource (health included) for calculation. Some SB skills scale off of or use health in damage calculation. many Bow skills scale of the resource more than WD. destruction staves skills scale more with resources than SD.

What do you think, @Gidorick @tinythinker ?

the idea is decent but I don't like the details.

Shields scaling off health except sorcs... Ok.
Ultimates combine the highest damage and resource... Already being done so ok.
S&B scaling off health for some skills... Sure. Much needed buff for real tanks.

Bow scale off resource? Why the f? Stam classes have a much smaller resource pool compared to magicka. My sorc has 45k magicka and my imperial dk has 40k stam... So NO. No more nerfs to stam please. This would hit stam Dps hard. Values for Wp needs to be adjusted for bow.

Destro staves scale off resource more then sp? Again why? Magicka has insane pools while stamina has smaller resource pools due to things like mages guild Passives. Again indirect buff to magicka ranged in comparison with the bow scenario which is utterly not needed.

Healing scales off max resource.... Again buff to magicka while nerf to stamina since any kind of magicka build has innately around 5k more resource then any stamina build. Even the ones running double kena and full spell power have like 45k magicka. Stamina heals would be hit harder then magicka heals. So no.... It's a solid nerf to my kitty kat stam nb who only has 38k stamina.

How about anything that has to do with non-s&b and non-shield, scales off either sp/Wp. Ie: all damage and all healing will scale of Wp/sp. You can have a slight rebalancing of destro staff/bow Wp/sp revising. Max resources only have a part to play in ultimates and resource management? How would u like that?

It's just destruction staff the most subpar weapon ever for burst compared to other weapons even 1HS has more potential and you have flawless dawnbreaker. the class and mages guild skills will be reduced because resources will no longer provide more damage because it is so easy to get up without these being involved in those calculations the only way to buff mages is to increase SD and mages will only aid in resource or the staff and will create more synergy. Plus bow deal more burst than staff as is if anything it will make bows better. I guess stamina heals should have half WD in the calculation but we do need resources involved in some moves to avoid a FOTM build of pure burst and heals ect. my main goal is to eventually separate the builds into a classic role system.

Gidorick

Speely wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

DanielMaxwell wrote: »

while I do not object to the ideas , I would like to point out that none of the ones put forth actually make things simple . they add a level of complexity that (sadly IMHO) many of the current MMO's are removing .

hehe... Yea, I'm totally against the simplification of mechanics @DanielMaxwell . When you simply the tools available you take away player options and agency.

This is kind of an important point to me. In a MMO where players are expected to spend literally HUNDREDS of hours playing one game, simplifying things is simply not needed. It's not like players aren't smart enough to learn the complexities of a real stat-based system when they are playing for such long periods. Adding sophistication and complexity merely gives them more variables with which to play.

I call it the iEffect @Speely , as in how apple products simplify tasks to the point of removing user freedom.

Thevampirenight

Mojmir wrote: »

Thevampirenight wrote: »

Well, maybe they need to change some things, Maybe like giving five attributes, Strength, Intellegince, Agility, luck and willpower. I would like to see the renaming and changes to attributes to something more like oblivion's system.
Strength- improves damage all stamina abilities and weapons.
Agility- to increase speed of attacks and jumping and atheletics as well as increases stamina pool.
Intelligence- increases magical pool.
Willpower- increases health as well as increasing magical attacks with all magical abilites.
Luck- improves chances at finding gold rare items, fishing and hunting maybe a chance for a kill to count as a double kill meaning if you kill a zombie it counts as killing two zombies on achievement. Also increases chance for crit.

Also another mechanic needed for the game flanking damage, taking extra damage by attacking from behind- only armor like medium and heavy can give some ability to reduce flanking damage, flanking damage can't be blocked by a normal round shield, only by abilities that cover from behind. Like dragon shield abilty the dragonknights have that form armor of spikes on the back of your character, that should protect against flanking.
The shields the sorcerer has like the ward shield ability should protect against flanking. But flanking needs to be a thing so it can balance out the game.

please for the love of everything holy no luck stat, they tried this in UO and it was pointless and gimmicky,im fine with other stats though.

Well I am sure I would love the luck attribute, as would others, either that or a passive skill line for fishing and achievement hunting, fishing and get trophies for achievements has got to be the hardest achievements to get at the moment. The luck attribute is one way to make it easier to get what you want.

WalkingLegacy

Thevampirenight wrote: »

WalkingLegacy wrote: »

You want the game to be truly kiss, get rid of champion point system and fold those values into the character levels.

Well having the champion system is nice but they also need to do something with attributes what I posted up above is what I think they should do, not only to make it feel more like elder scrolls but also give more choices and balance, I would like to see them change the attributes, Also having a luck attribute would be nice as well.

It's not that nice. I don't feel empowered increasing x by %. It's an artificial hook for us to continue grinding out on lack of content releases.

Vangy

RAGUNAnoOne wrote: »

Vangy wrote: »

RAGUNAnoOne wrote: »

A basic overhaul idea

step 1 decouple magicka and stamina from damage and with a select few exceptions listed below the moves only scale off SD or WD
step 2 attribute points can be put into SD, WD, or mitigation
step 3 rebalance the content to reflect the DPS loss.

Exceptions: and special mechanics: shields with the exception of sorc shields and LA shield will scale off health. healing moves scale off the resource they use not SD or WD. Ultimates combine both the highest damage and highest resource (health included) for calculation. Some SB skills scale off of or use health in damage calculation. many Bow skills scale of the resource more than WD. destruction staves skills scale more with resources than SD.

What do you think, @Gidorick @tinythinker ?

the idea is decent but I don't like the details.

Shields scaling off health except sorcs... Ok.
Ultimates combine the highest damage and resource... Already being done so ok.
S&B scaling off health for some skills... Sure. Much needed buff for real tanks.

Bow scale off resource? Why the f? Stam classes have a much smaller resource pool compared to magicka. My sorc has 45k magicka and my imperial dk has 40k stam... So NO. No more nerfs to stam please. This would hit stam Dps hard. Values for Wp needs to be adjusted for bow.

Destro staves scale off resource more then sp? Again why? Magicka has insane pools while stamina has smaller resource pools due to things like mages guild Passives. Again indirect buff to magicka ranged in comparison with the bow scenario which is utterly not needed.

Healing scales off max resource.... Again buff to magicka while nerf to stamina since any kind of magicka build has innately around 5k more resource then any stamina build. Even the ones running double kena and full spell power have like 45k magicka. Stamina heals would be hit harder then magicka heals. So no.... It's a solid nerf to my kitty kat stam nb who only has 38k stamina.

How about anything that has to do with non-s&b and non-shield, scales off either sp/Wp. Ie: all damage and all healing will scale of Wp/sp. You can have a slight rebalancing of destro staff/bow Wp/sp revising. Max resources only have a part to play in ultimates and resource management? How would u like that?

It's just destruction staff the most subpar weapon ever for burst compared to other weapons even 1HS has more potential and you have flawless dawnbreaker. the class and mages guild skills will be reduced because resources will no longer provide more damage because it is so easy to get up without these being involved in those calculations the only way to buff mages is to increase SD and mages will only aid in resource or the staff and will create more synergy. Plus bow deal more burst than staff as is if anything it will make bows better. I guess stamina heals should have half WD in the calculation but we do need resources involved in some moves to avoid a FOTM build of pure burst and heals ect. my main goal is to eventually separate the builds into a classic role system.

There is a reason (imo) staff has lesser burst. Cos of sustain. Elemental drain/mystic orb etc. I can run with 700 magicka regen on my sorc in pvp while keeping up a 60-80% uptime on kena with my healer running orbs and drain. On the flip side my stamina nb or dk need at least 1200 regen with shards. No shards aka no Templar =no go. And I wouldn't dream of running kena on my dk or nb. Also the ONLY thing bow is good for in pvp is bombard snare or snipe gank. In pve, well poison injection just for a dot and volley with maelstrom bow. That's it. Even flying blade spam with weaving does more damage then bow. You seem to think bow is actually good for dps as a main weapon. It's not, it's used as a buff/dot/backup weapon. It's just used with maelstrom bow or for the dots or for the oh *** boss is on fire I can't get close situations. Back when Morag tongs was a thing yes bow was good. Now not so much.... Also flawless dawnbreaker does jack all for now since u want bow to scale off resource and not weapon damage....

The whole stamina vs magicka resource pools and bigger weapon damage vs spell damage as well as stamina sustain needs more options like orbs and drain need to be addressed before any of these changes can happen. I for one have 0 confidence zos can ever implement something as complicated as this without totally and utterly destroying the game. They cant even nerf/buff single abilities without breaking 10 other things man...

ProfessorKittyhawk

I wouldn't be opposed to them revamping the stat system. FFXIV had stats broken down similar to what's presented in this topic. And in addition, it would be interesting if they added subclasses, or to borrow from FFXIV, "job" classes. Additional classes you attain after maxing your class skills or reaching a certain level that allows you to customize your build, such as a stamina based dps sorc, or a tank or healer, whatever. And these stats changes would tie in with those new "jobs".

DanielMaxwell

Gidorick wrote: »

DanielMaxwell wrote: »

while I do not object to the ideas , I would like to point out that none of the ones put forth actually make things simple . they add a level of complexity that (sadly IMHO) many of the current MMO's are removing .

hehe... Yea, I'm totally against the simplification of mechanics @DanielMaxwell . When you simply the tools available you take away player options and agency.

adding some complexity can be good so long as it is not confusing complexity , I know that sound like a oxy-moron but it does make a little sense .

Gidorick wrote: »

Speely wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

DanielMaxwell wrote: »

while I do not object to the ideas , I would like to point out that none of the ones put forth actually make things simple . they add a level of complexity that (sadly IMHO) many of the current MMO's are removing .

hehe... Yea, I'm totally against the simplification of mechanics @DanielMaxwell . When you simply the tools available you take away player options and agency.

This is kind of an important point to me. In a MMO where players are expected to spend literally HUNDREDS of hours playing one game, simplifying things is simply not needed. It's not like players aren't smart enough to learn the complexities of a real stat-based system when they are playing for such long periods. Adding sophistication and complexity merely gives them more variables with which to play.

I call it the iEffect @Speely , as in how apple products simplify tasks to the point of removing user freedom.

sadly that is true and not just with apple products it is something that is flowing into gaming at an alarming rate .

Speely

Gidorick wrote: »

Speely wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

DanielMaxwell wrote: »

while I do not object to the ideas , I would like to point out that none of the ones put forth actually make things simple . they add a level of complexity that (sadly IMHO) many of the current MMO's are removing .

hehe... Yea, I'm totally against the simplification of mechanics @DanielMaxwell . When you simply the tools available you take away player options and agency.

This is kind of an important point to me. In a MMO where players are expected to spend literally HUNDREDS of hours playing one game, simplifying things is simply not needed. It's not like players aren't smart enough to learn the complexities of a real stat-based system when they are playing for such long periods. Adding sophistication and complexity merely gives them more variables with which to play.

I call it the iEffect @Speely , as in how apple products simplify tasks to the point of removing user freedom.

Hah well put. It's just disheartening since the ES games became my favorite IP partly because of how dumbed down they WEREN'T. Not that ESO isn't great... It could just be a lot better if players could dig in even more specifically.

Vangy

Additionally the only thing I feel needs to happen is all healing/shields/resistances should scale off health. It would stop the mindless stacking of stamina/magicka with Wp/sp dmg to get huge vigo/rally heals and 15k hardened wards/healing wards while still putting out *** tons of damage.

Much simpler and much more realistic and fully within the capabilities of zos.... I hope.

Armann

Decoupling magicka and stamina from damage and healing calculations needs to happen at some point if we ever are going to see viable hybrids. Race is now a huge factor to how effective your character can be and so we have people asking for race change all the time, percentage bonuses from racial to maxed mag/stam and it's already out of control with some races being garbage.

And no, tweaking health and resource gains for argonians next patch is not a fix, just a bandaid in the current state. The removal of softcaps and the champion system brought this state of the game we have now and I don't like it at all. Make attributes consistent with how they work in the main Elder Scrolls series.

DanielMaxwell

Vangy wrote: »

Additionally the only thing I feel needs to happen is all healing/shields/resistances should scale off health. It would stop the mindless stacking of stamina/magicka with Wp/sp dmg to get huge vigo/rally heals and 15k hardened wards/healing wards while still putting out *** tons of damage.

Much simpler and much more realistic and fully within the capabilities of zos.... I hope.

putting aside ZOS's proven coding skill , or lack there of , could you image the tears from some players when their shields become so much weaker as compared know ?

It would make attribute spending require a small amount of thought .

Faulgor

I tackled the same issues in my suggestion for additional attributes. Give it a read if you like:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/240195/streamlining-eso



At the core is the philosophy that you have a limited amount of attribute points, and all other stats, increases, buffs, etc are derived from that - so you can't become the best at everything, or negate your weaknesses with the right food and gear.

tinythinker

WalkingLegacy wrote: »

... get rid of champion point system ...

As for the rest of the thread, lots of interesting ideas, each with potential drawbacks in practicality, *but*, still good to see a conversation about stacking one stat/lack of viable build diversity. The changes since 1.6/2.0, including the loss of soft caps, have caused the game to be really unbalanced and they are trying to fix it by:

- nerfing all damage in Cyro (didn't work, people still do ridiculous burst coupled with crippling CC)
- nerfing block/roll dodge (didn't work, tanks have suffered but roll-dodge spammers keep rollin')
- nerfing item sets (didn't work, people just switched to new sets that made them just as powerful)
- introducing new item sets (didn't work, people only wanted the new sets that favored the new meta, the rest are considered junk)
- nerfing class skills (didn't work, because it couldn't, because the underlying imbalance is still there, but it sure has made class balance worse as part of a clumsy effort at a fix and has also ticked a lot of players off).

My prediction: ZOS will just keep trying these same bandaids over and over for several more months at least. Either they don't see what people in this thread are talking about as a serious issue or they haven't figured out/decided yet what to do about it.

tinythinker

Gidorick wrote: »

I think that would be a good way to allow players to better tailor their characters to their own specific play style. Decoupling damage from Stamina and Magicka would mean adding an attribute point to Stamina or Magicka would mean an increase in that resource ONLY...

I actually have a concept that marries sort of what you are saying Raguna and what @Thevampirenight suggested.

My[url="(http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/199791/perpetual-independent-end-game-level-progression-concept/p1 ) "] Perpetual Independent End Game Progression concept [/url]suggested that sub-attributes be unlocked after a player reaches level 80. (I STILL think converting Vet Ranks to regular levels would be the best move for the long term health of ESO - http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/174148/level-50-80-vr-1-16-replacement-a-new-ish-concept/p1)... These sub attributes would be:

Gidorick wrote:

The Sub-Attributes would be:

• Magicka
  • Intelligence (+ Spell Damage)
  • Luck (+ Spell Critical)
  • Personality (+ Spell Resistance)
• Health
  • Willpower (+Magicka Recovery)
  • Constitution (+Health Recovery)
  • Endurance (+ Stamina Recovery)
• Stamina
  • Strength (+ Weapon Damage)
  • Speed (+ Weapon Critical)
  • Agility (+ Armor)

With the Sub-Attribute system, players would now increase their Damage, Critical, Resistance, and Recovery attributes one at a time on a more granular level. This progression would allow players to create the exact character they desire. It’s important to note that each sub-attribute point would raise the Sub-Attribute by a very small amount since this progression would be in conjunction with the champion system and would increase the base stats to which the champion system and enchantments provides buffs.

Note that there is no means to directly increase Max Magicka, Max health, or Max Stamina using the Sub-Attributes. This is another power mitigation design so that all players, post level 80, would be on an equal playing field when it comes to how much Magicka, Health, and Stamina they have available to them from the leveling system.

Taken from here: (http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/199791/perpetual-independent-end-game-level-progression-concept/p1 )

I could see this type of system being applied from level 1, which I wouldn't be adverse to at all...

Looks fun, but it could be a headache for new players worried that they aren't making the right choices. ZOS started off making the game something you could pick up right away and intuitively grasp, where you could change rolls just by changing your armor and weapons. Now it's gotten so complicated. If they redesigned the Champion System to work with these sub-attributes in a clear and easily graspable way, it could work, otherwise even more players would come here or to places like Tamriel Foundry begging others who've done the math to point them toward the "best build".

I_killed_Vivec

Gidorick wrote: »

Speely wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

DanielMaxwell wrote: »

while I do not object to the ideas , I would like to point out that none of the ones put forth actually make things simple . they add a level of complexity that (sadly IMHO) many of the current MMO's are removing .

hehe... Yea, I'm totally against the simplification of mechanics @DanielMaxwell . When you simply the tools available you take away player options and agency.

This is kind of an important point to me. In a MMO where players are expected to spend literally HUNDREDS of hours playing one game, simplifying things is simply not needed. It's not like players aren't smart enough to learn the complexities of a real stat-based system when they are playing for such long periods. Adding sophistication and complexity merely gives them more variables with which to play.

I call it the iEffect @Speely , as in how apple products simplify tasks to the point of removing user freedom.

And then sell the story that by hiding the intricacies it somehow frees you to be more "creative".

Creative enough to be the same as everyone else...