New Argonian Buff coming next week (8% potion restore to 12%)

tinythinker

@Jar_Ek @PlagueMonk @Junkogen @ThatNeonZebraAgain

From today's ESO Live, buff to values from potion restore passive will now give 12% of max amount of health, stam, and mag to be on par with having a basic regen buff.

Jura23

Happy for you guys.

Wreuntzylla

It would be noteworthy if they changed it to an amount equal to 12% of your primary stat pool (instead of 12% of health pool, 12% of magicka pool and 12% of stamina pool).

The mechanic underlying the passive cripples its benefit.

Just add 50% chance for a potion to refill on use and we'll call it good.

attackjet

Cool

ThatNeonZebraAgain

12% is a solid return amount. I'm happy with that [EDIT] as a step in the right direction, not a complete fix.

Forestd16b14_ESO

Ok....... now did the figure out what be a passive for Argonians than a fast swim speed yet?

RAGUNAnoOne

sigh...I give up...it's hopeless...

tinythinker

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

Ok....... now did the figure out what be a passive for Argonians than a fast swim speed yet?

Swim speed is part of the same passive and is an extra. It's nice. Other races should have a similar non-combat lore aspect added to one of their passives, too.

tinythinker

ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »

12% is a solid return amount. I'm happy with that.

Yeah I suggested 12% for the potion bonus a while back in one of the many Argonian passive threads. Their calculations came to the same conclusion apparently (either that or they just said, "Hey, go with what tiny said and say we crunched some numbers"). I had also suggested 8 or 9% for max health bonus too... hmmmm

Slurg

Are people actually happy about this garbage? How about a passive that doesn't require me to use a potion (that has cool down time) to be effective, just like all the other races have?

Mojmir

Argonian Templar,the failure is complete

Artjuh90

according to wrobel agronian can use a potion when we are to 0 aka dead? really now? roflcopter

dodgehopper_ESO

tinythinker wrote: »

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

Ok....... now did the figure out what be a passive for Argonians than a fast swim speed yet?

Swim speed is part of the same passive and is an extra. It's nice. Other races should have a similar non-combat lore aspect added to one of their passives, too.

I agree, I don't want to lose this. If they want to give a little 'fun buff' to every race that's fine, and that's how I see this.

Jitterbug

meh

PlagueMonk

ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »

12% is a solid return amount. I'm happy with that.

While I'm going to go ahead and say its something, it is still just a bone (but yes a bigger bone) They just keep adding bits to existing racials instead of retooling them.

The problem is this "buff" is STILL tied to an ability that requires us to expend consumables and a measly +4% to each stat STILL does not offset that big disadvantage. If we don't have a potion, we get zero. (not to mention the fact this ability has a CD on top of that because of potion mechanics). Even if the return was 20% I don't see that as offsetting the fact it costs us money to gain benefit from our racial.

Now if Zenimax was willing to send Argonians a daily supply of max stat potions THEN I would quit bitching but i don't see that happening.

tinythinker

PlagueMonk wrote: »

The problem is this "buff" is STILL tied to an ability that requires us to expend consumables and a measly +4% to each stat STILL does not offset that big disadvantage.

True it is still tied to a consumable item, but with the health buff last week there is still progress.

PlagueMonk wrote: »

Now if Zenimax was willing to send Argonians a daily supply of max stat potions THEN I would quit bitching but i don't see that happening.

Would you settle for adding in that Argonians make one or two extra potions per craft?

kirk_lewis_ESO

Argonians are ESO's drug fiends.

ThatNeonZebraAgain

tinythinker wrote: »

ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »

12% is a solid return amount. I'm happy with that.

Yeah I suggested 12% for the potion bonus a while back in one of the many Argonian passive threads. Their calculations came to the same conclusion apparently (either that or they just said, "Hey, go with what tiny said and say we crunched some numbers"). I had also suggested 8 or 9% for max health bonus too... hmmmm

Yea I recall 12-15% being tossed around our threads. Glad they decided to take a larger leap than simply increasing by another 2%.

PlagueMonk wrote: »

ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »

12% is a solid return amount. I'm happy with that.

While I'm going to go ahead and say its something, it is still just a bone (but yes a bigger bone) They just keep adding bits to existing racials instead of retooling them.

The problem is this "buff" is STILL tied to an ability that requires us to expend consumables and a measly +4% to each stat STILL does not offset that big disadvantage. If we don't have a potion, we get zero. (not to mention the fact this ability has a CD on top of that because of potion mechanics). Even if the return was 20% I don't see that as offsetting the fact it costs us money to gain benefit from our racial.

Now if Zenimax was willing to send Argonians a daily supply of max stat potions THEN I would quit bitching but i don't see that happening.

I agree, anything potion-related will always be limited by the cooldown and the cost of the potion itself, which must be taken into account when balancing. Another way to increase the value of potion passives is to provide ways to viably reduce the potion cooldown beyond the 15 seconds that 3 jewelry glyphs would grant. However, V16 gold jewelry enchants for regen or damage are very hard to pass up, especially for potions whose buff values are locked.

Could Amphibious still have a higher value and not be OP? Yes, but at least things are starting to finally fall into place. Could the value of healing received be increased still to offset its relatively low value compared to max stat or regen? Yes as well. But it seems pretty clear that we are unfortunately not going to see a big retooling of racial passives (don't know if they are still going with their plan of overhauling racials before offering race change in Crown Store), so getting the current ones increased is currently the most obtainable fix we will get.

tinythinker

ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »

tinythinker wrote: »

ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »

12% is a solid return amount. I'm happy with that.

Yeah I suggested 12% for the potion bonus a while back in one of the many Argonian passive threads. Their calculations came to the same conclusion apparently (either that or they just said, "Hey, go with what tiny said and say we crunched some numbers"). I had also suggested 8 or 9% for max health bonus too... hmmmm

Yea I recall 12-15% being tossed around our threads. Glad they decided to take a larger leap than simply increasing by another 2%.

PlagueMonk wrote: »

ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »

12% is a solid return amount. I'm happy with that.

While I'm going to go ahead and say its something, it is still just a bone (but yes a bigger bone) They just keep adding bits to existing racials instead of retooling them.

The problem is this "buff" is STILL tied to an ability that requires us to expend consumables and a measly +4% to each stat STILL does not offset that big disadvantage. If we don't have a potion, we get zero. (not to mention the fact this ability has a CD on top of that because of potion mechanics). Even if the return was 20% I don't see that as offsetting the fact it costs us money to gain benefit from our racial.

Now if Zenimax was willing to send Argonians a daily supply of max stat potions THEN I would quit bitching but i don't see that happening.

I agree, anything potion-related will always be limited by the cooldown and the cost of the potion itself, which must be taken into account when balancing. Another way to increase the value of potion passives is to provide ways to viably reduce the potion cooldown beyond the 15 seconds that 3 jewelry glyphs would grant. However, V16 gold jewelry enchants for regen or damage are very hard to pass up, especially for potions whose buff values are locked.

Could Amphibious still have a higher value and not be OP? Yes, but at least things are starting to finally fall into place. Could the value of healing received be increased still to offset its relatively low value compared to max stat or regen? Yes as well. But it seems pretty clear that we are unfortunately not going to see a big retooling of racial passives (don't know if they are still going with their plan of overhauling racials before offering race change in Crown Store), so getting the current ones increased is currently the most obtainable fix we will get.

I think I tossed out adding "reduce potion cool-down by 5/10 seconds" in that PTS thread you guys made. Three VR16 glyphs only get you from 45s to 30s, so this would make it 20s for Argonians only. Doubt we'll see it with the value increase announced and that new Clever Alchemist set. Hmm, maybe 3/5s? Hmmmm... naw.

sneakymitchell

Well argonians are getting buffs what next nords and I don't know what else right after that if they can't squeeze any more buffs on bad racial passives on races that are not good with their passives.


Like nords are not have the great effect on tanking with rugged this guy on the forums tested it with having high resistance said that rugged is like getting 3% than normally would.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/2596653/#Comment_2596653

tinythinker

sneakymitchell wrote: »

Well argonians are getting buffs what next nords and I don't know what else right after that if they can't squeeze any more buffs on bad racial passives on races that are not good with their passives.


Like nords are not have the great effect on tanking with rugged this guy on the forums tested it with having high resistance said that rugged is like getting 3% than normally would.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/2596653/#Comment_2596653

Hmm, maybe we could give that 3/5s potion cool-down to the Nords?

sneakymitchell

tinythinker wrote: »

sneakymitchell wrote: »

Well argonians are getting buffs what next nords and I don't know what else right after that if they can't squeeze any more buffs on bad racial passives on races that are not good with their passives.


Like nords are not have the great effect on tanking with rugged this guy on the forums tested it with having high resistance said that rugged is like getting 3% than normally would.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/2596653/#Comment_2596653

Hmm, maybe we could give that 3/5s potion cool-down to the Nords?

No.

I don't care about that.

It just that when I used to run good reinforced back then I was new to the game when consoles came out. I thought the reinforced will be good to help nords reduce the damage mitigation but instead in downgrades the passive to 3% to what SkylarkAU was saying.

SkylarkAU

sneakymitchell wrote: »

tinythinker wrote: »

sneakymitchell wrote: »

Well argonians are getting buffs what next nords and I don't know what else right after that if they can't squeeze any more buffs on bad racial passives on races that are not good with their passives.


Like nords are not have the great effect on tanking with rugged this guy on the forums tested it with having high resistance said that rugged is like getting 3% than normally would.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/2596653/#Comment_2596653

Hmm, maybe we could give that 3/5s potion cool-down to the Nords?

No.

I don't care about that.

It just that when I used to run good reinforced back then I was new to the game when consoles came out. I thought the reinforced will be good to help nords reduce the damage mitigation but instead in downgrades the passive to 3% to what SkylarkAU was saying.

Just to explain for others..

From the testing I've done mitigation is calculated in steps as opposed to simply being stacked, presumably to prevent players from reaching 100% mitigation, e.g.

You have maximum resistance (50% mitigation) + Nord passive:

----Step 1----
10,000 damage coming to you
- 50% from resistance
= 5,000 damage
----Step 2----
5,000 damage coming to you
- 6% from nord passive
= 4,700 damage

as opposed to:

You have maximum resistance (50% mitigation) + Nord passive:

----Step 1----
10,000 damage coming to you
- 56% from resistance + Nord passive
= 4,400 damage


So you can see that the higher your base resistance the less effective additional mitigation passives/bonuses are (diminishing returns)

sneakymitchell

SkylarkAU wrote: »

sneakymitchell wrote: »

tinythinker wrote: »

sneakymitchell wrote: »

Well argonians are getting buffs what next nords and I don't know what else right after that if they can't squeeze any more buffs on bad racial passives on races that are not good with their passives.


Like nords are not have the great effect on tanking with rugged this guy on the forums tested it with having high resistance said that rugged is like getting 3% than normally would.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/2596653/#Comment_2596653

Hmm, maybe we could give that 3/5s potion cool-down to the Nords?

No.

I don't care about that.

It just that when I used to run good reinforced back then I was new to the game when consoles came out. I thought the reinforced will be good to help nords reduce the damage mitigation but instead in downgrades the passive to 3% to what SkylarkAU was saying.

Just to explain for others..

From the testing I've done mitigation is calculated in steps as opposed to simply being stacked, presumably to prevent players from reaching 100% mitigation, e.g.

You have maximum resistance (50% mitigation) + Nord passive:

----Step 1----
10,000 damage coming to you
- 50% from resistance
= 5,000 damage
----Step 2----
5,000 damage coming to you
- 6% from nord passive
= 4,700 damage

as opposed to:

You have maximum resistance (50% mitigation) + Nord passive:

----Step 1----
10,000 damage coming to you
- 56% from resistance + Nord passive
= 4,400 damage


So you can see that the higher your base resistance the less effective additional mitigation passives/bonuses are (diminishing returns)

SkylarkAU So what is the highest resistance that you get from numbers other than % ? And how do i calculate this ?

dodgehopper_ESO

SkylarkAU wrote: »

sneakymitchell wrote: »

tinythinker wrote: »

sneakymitchell wrote: »

Well argonians are getting buffs what next nords and I don't know what else right after that if they can't squeeze any more buffs on bad racial passives on races that are not good with their passives.


Like nords are not have the great effect on tanking with rugged this guy on the forums tested it with having high resistance said that rugged is like getting 3% than normally would.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/2596653/#Comment_2596653

Hmm, maybe we could give that 3/5s potion cool-down to the Nords?

No.

I don't care about that.

It just that when I used to run good reinforced back then I was new to the game when consoles came out. I thought the reinforced will be good to help nords reduce the damage mitigation but instead in downgrades the passive to 3% to what SkylarkAU was saying.

Just to explain for others..

From the testing I've done mitigation is calculated in steps as opposed to simply being stacked, presumably to prevent players from reaching 100% mitigation, e.g.

You have maximum resistance (50% mitigation) + Nord passive:

----Step 1----
10,000 damage coming to you
- 50% from resistance
= 5,000 damage
----Step 2----
5,000 damage coming to you
- 6% from nord passive
= 4,700 damage

as opposed to:

You have maximum resistance (50% mitigation) + Nord passive:

----Step 1----
10,000 damage coming to you
- 56% from resistance + Nord passive
= 4,400 damage


So you can see that the higher your base resistance the less effective additional mitigation passives/bonuses are (diminishing returns)

I could actually see this as intentional, because Nords are known characteristically for being tough but also tending to wear 'medium armor' I think this damage reduction fits them perfectly in that sense, though I realize why it is annoying that it works this way.

sneakymitchell

Either way we won't see another combat and gameplay change in 2 to 3 months when thieves guild update comes out.

Sethro_27

Yay for improvement to the movement I guess.

Teflondon75

ok ok ok....how does this help exactly? lol. Honestly, when you are leveling up ok sure, but once you are V16/gold kit and a good build etc is sustain really a problem that people often run into that a little return on potion use actually makes or breaks?

Still a race that will "NEVER" be considered for min/max(not saying it needs to...just stating it will never be) because it has no stat max and health is whatever @shrugs@ They created a game that almost screams for max magicka or stamina and then throw out a few races that have no bonus to these. Why exactly would they do that is my question.

Despite the extra cost I would have preferred a slight reduction on potion cooldown. At least that would be excellent with the alchemist set. But they are seemingly hell-bent on keeping some races as more flavor and some as the Srs Bsns races for the big boys (nGirls) club.

SkylarkAU

sneakymitchell wrote: »

SkylarkAU wrote: »

sneakymitchell wrote: »

tinythinker wrote: »

sneakymitchell wrote: »

Well argonians are getting buffs what next nords and I don't know what else right after that if they can't squeeze any more buffs on bad racial passives on races that are not good with their passives.


Like nords are not have the great effect on tanking with rugged this guy on the forums tested it with having high resistance said that rugged is like getting 3% than normally would.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/2596653/#Comment_2596653

Hmm, maybe we could give that 3/5s potion cool-down to the Nords?

No.

I don't care about that.

It just that when I used to run good reinforced back then I was new to the game when consoles came out. I thought the reinforced will be good to help nords reduce the damage mitigation but instead in downgrades the passive to 3% to what SkylarkAU was saying.

Just to explain for others..

From the testing I've done mitigation is calculated in steps as opposed to simply being stacked, presumably to prevent players from reaching 100% mitigation, e.g.

You have maximum resistance (50% mitigation) + Nord passive:

----Step 1----
10,000 damage coming to you
- 50% from resistance
= 5,000 damage
----Step 2----
5,000 damage coming to you
- 6% from nord passive
= 4,700 damage

as opposed to:

You have maximum resistance (50% mitigation) + Nord passive:

----Step 1----
10,000 damage coming to you
- 56% from resistance + Nord passive
= 4,400 damage


So you can see that the higher your base resistance the less effective additional mitigation passives/bonuses are (diminishing returns)

SkylarkAU So what is the highest resistance that you get from numbers other than % ? And how do i calculate this ?

So the cap that armor can mitigate is 50%, in terms of resistance that cap is equal to 32,500 spell or physical resist (depending on which type of damage you're mitigating).

This is calculated with the following formula(s):

(49+v16)*10 = 650
650*50 = 32,500
(taken and adjusted from forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/150528/1-6-armor-mitigation-formula)

So for example:
32,500 = 50% mitigation
16,250 = 25% mitigation
etc..


There is something called penetration which determines how much damage mitigation is ignored on hit. I don't 100% know how this works (so don't quote me!) but based on how the CP system in thieves guild is layed out I assume at this stage that its a flat subtraction.. so,

(you have) 32,500 resistance / 50% mitigation
(enemy has) 5000 penetration
(you now have) 27,500 resistance / 42.3% mitigation

Is this correct @ZOS_GinaBruno ?

SkylarkAU

Anyway I for one welcome our new Argonian overlords

Jar_Ek

I am rather disappointed with this considering the many decent suggestions. It is still feels relatively low return for something that can occur every 45s (30s if you gimp yourself with cool down jewellery) and requires a consumable. I would certainly advocate for a potion cool down to be built in to the passive at 2.5s per rank.

Ultimately I can't see this making Argonians any more popular and any less of an underdog (underlizard).