Siphon attacks

nordickittyhawk

In the current version of the game in mostly pve nightblade use there siphon attacks to keep there rescources up during aoe and boss fights while using one or two dots.

In the current PTS they changed this to only procs off main hitting attacks.

The change to this destroyed alot peoples views of the night blade and has made it impossible for nightblades to tank now.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

Yes. Siphon attacks should proc off damage over time effects. (Current)

Without Caltrops and Path Shadow Tanks don't work out.

nordickittyhawk

Yes. Siphon attacks should proc off damage over time effects. (Current)

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Without Caltrops and Path Shadow Tanks don't work out.

exactly.... remeber "play how you want... if your a dk"

myrrrorb14_ESO

Not really sure how this will play out. But doesn't look good at first glance

nordickittyhawk

Yes. Siphon attacks should proc off damage over time effects. (Current)

myrrrorb14_ESO wrote: »

Not really sure how this will play out. But doesn't look good at first glance

I tested it... its bad so hard to keep rescources high

Autolycus

Yes. Siphon attacks should proc off damage over time effects. (Current)

My opinion is of course one of many, but in my experience this change doesn't make NB tanking less viable, it simply removes a considerable amount of utility from most builds, and removes some of the enjoyment of playing a NB tank. It's not impossible to tank without AoE procs; I've been NB tanking since just after launch, long before I ever had caltrops or use path of shadows.

Though I personally don't agree that SA procs on DoT ticks is unfair or overkill, I will not deny that perspective's validity. If a change needed to be made, there are better alternatives than removing the mechanic altogether.

I started a thread on this before, so I don't want to clog up your thread by re-stating a lot of what's already been mentioned. There are some really good points, and some great suggestions for alternate adjustments that could have been made instead. If anyone is interested in the other thread, here is the link:
PTS Natch Potes: NB Resource Gain Nerf

ThatNeonZebraAgain

Yes. Siphon attacks should proc off damage over time effects. (Current)

This poll doesn't quite get at the nuance of SA proccing on DoTs. SA already only procc'd off certain ground-target AoE DoTs after the initial hit. Twisting Path worked, but Refreshing Path didn't for example. As a single-target DoT, for example, Cripple already didn't proc it. Caltrops was somewhat different in terms of what it counted as (used to proc basic attack tick, then that was removed with IC update so it only had the % chance to proc).

The main issue with SA was coupling it with Caltrops. It was a really effective combo, but admittedly OP in some situations (though much less so since it's tweak in the IC update). It's important to state that Caltrops has a very high up front cost, which is a balance for the resource gain SA provides. Nonetheless, since Caltrops was the issue, why not just tweak it so Caltrops doesn't proc SA? Or that SA only procs off the first 6 targets (same limit as AoE dmg cap) hit by an AoE DoT?

Since ground-target AoE DoTs can't be blocked, it makes sense to me that abilities like Twisting/Refreshing Path should proc it. The size of these AoE DoTs is also much smaller than Caltrops, and thus poses less risk of mass proccing. In addition, NB tanks make use of these AoE DoTs already for the damage, utility, and Shadow lines passives, so allowing SA to proc off them would also support common NB tanking abilities. Non-ground target AoE DoTs, such as Cripple, Lotus Fan, or bleeds should not proc (so the same as it has been).

If ZOS doesn't go either of those routes, I think ZOS should have a look at the value of Siphoning Attack's stat return. Resource management was the main strong point of NB tanks, but that is now largely diminished because of the overall reduce chance to proc SA. Like others have pointed out, this is on top of the nerf to AoE ground target DoTs ticking every 1 second instead of the previous .5 second. Having a way to help sustain resources while blocking was key for boss fights where you can't afford to drop block often either because boss attacks are communicated well, bugged, attacks from adds at same time as boss, etc. SA still works nicely with light attack weaving, but blockcasting a cheap ability like Swallow Soul or Entropy only goes so far in maintaining stamina (and magicka) while blocking multiple attacks, taunting, buffing, etc. Sap Essence is still a strong way to proc it, but requires there to be multiple mobs, so not good for many prolonged boss fights or fights with lots of ranged adds.

SA has always been the bread and butter for NB tanks (who have also always been the tanking underdog), and it's on the chopping block yet again. I don't know if it is a technical or time constraint, but a more focused/nuanced fix to the SA+Caltrops 'problem' is what is needed, not a blanket removal of SA proccing on ground-target AoE DoTs as that is how the ability has been for the last 2 years.

Samphaa

Yes. Siphon attacks should proc off damage over time effects. (Current)

Huge nerf to NB tanks, quite a silly change imo

Tankqull

nordickittyhawk wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Without Caltrops and Path Shadow Tanks don't work out.

exactly.... remeber "play how you want... if your a dk"

this

Malmai

Samphaa wrote: »

Huge nerf to NB tanks, quite a silly change imo

ZOS is ZOS...

code65536

Yes. Siphon attacks should proc off damage over time effects. (Current)

Shouldn't this thread be in the PTS forum? ZOS has a very poor track record of looking at threads here.

(Then again, their track record there isn't stellar either.)

Anyway, this is the second nerf they've made to nb tanks. The first when they nerfed the SA return on abilities, from a generous percentage return to a smaller flat return. But at least that nerf had a silver lining in that SA became viable for DPS. But this one is just a flat-out nerf...

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

Yes. Siphon attacks should proc off damage over time effects. (Current)

@ZOS_RichLambert is speaking loud and clear that Nightblades have to go. Learning to buff the other two classes is harder then blanket nerfing one.

Jumper45

Yes. Siphon attacks should proc off damage over time effects. (Current)

I do not see a problem with this if you have an internal cooldown so you dont proc 50 times off an aoe for example. Not everyone is going to use light or heavy attacks and infact this forces weaving and ACing. It also makes you question using heavy. Youre going to use it for resource bump but its too slow to use with siphon. Would it say.. Change your heavy attack returns into light returns and still get the same amount? well see with the values. If thats the case then sure. You could get off several lights in the time heavy does.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

Yes. Siphon attacks should proc off damage over time effects. (Current)

Jumper45 wrote: »

I do not see a problem with this if you have an internal cooldown so you dont proc 50 times off an aoe for example. Not everyone is going to use light or heavy attacks and infact this forces weaving and ACing. It also makes you question using heavy. Youre going to use it for resource bump but its too slow to use with siphon. Would it say.. Change your heavy attack returns into light returns and still get the same amount? well see with the values. If thats the case then sure. You could get off several lights in the time heavy does.

But the amount of light attacks needed to heal, block, bash is just too much to be done without AoEs.

Coming from a Nightblade Tank with T Thunderous Plate a set with a 10% chance to do 5k AoE shock damage when hit with Melee hits. Even with the extra damage Proc I still need AoEs this with other nerfs will put Nightblades right back to square one and PvP will be 90% of a different class buffing all it better then nerfing one.

lonewolf26

Yes. Siphon attacks should proc off damage over time effects. (Current)

I tested this extensively on the PTS and found the siphoning attack revisions to almost break my sap tank. I only found it workable when being fed by shards and repentance. This needs to change. If they do not revert this change, they need to up the proc rate and resource return.

hrothbern

lonewolf26 wrote: »

I tested this extensively on the PTS and found the siphoning attack revisions to almost break my sap tank. I only found it workable when being fed by shards and repentance. This needs to change. If they do not revert this change, they need to up the proc rate and resource return.

This confirms my concern that nerfing SA, just to get the combat logic consistent (no DOT procs), will weaken the NB Siphoning Tank to a niche build for experienced players that know very well how to handle the resource squeeze.

Perhaps the bulk of players will not even notice the severity of the SA nerf, because they see NB as that OP DPS build ganking around.

And perhaps, perhaps, the devs are not seeing either clearly what this nerf means for the NB Tanks...

I agree with your suggestion to buff the resource return for sap tanks !!!

nordickittyhawk

Yes. Siphon attacks should proc off damage over time effects. (Current)

code65536 wrote: »

Shouldn't this thread be in the PTS forum? ZOS has a very poor track record of looking at threads here.

(Then again, their track record there isn't stellar either.)

Anyway, this is the second nerf they've made to nb tanks. The first when they nerfed the SA return on abilities, from a generous percentage return to a smaller flat return. But at least that nerf had a silver lining in that SA became viable for DPS. But this one is just a flat-out nerf...

@code65536 you cant make pts polls sorry

WolfingHour

Yes. Siphon attacks should proc off damage over time effects. (Current)

nordickittyhawk wrote: »

In the current version of the game in mostly pve nightblade use there siphon attacks to keep there rescources up during aoe and boss fights while using one or two dots.

In the current PTS they changed this to only procs off main hitting attacks.

The change to this destroyed alot peoples views of the night blade and has made it impossible for nightblades to tank now.

The funny thing is that I bet most people think caltrops+SA is cheesy and something you use all the time. It's not. You don't use it on a single target boss, for instance. You're better off not spending the stamina since the return is minuscule.

Trash too, to an extent. We're not swimming in unlimited stamina like before - once all those mobs start wailing at you and you do a couple of skills (leash, heroic slash, expert hunter, vigor), most times you need to pop a pot if the dps is not through the roof.

You know what was biggest contributor to the overflood of stamina? Sta regen while blocking. Once that was gone there was no infinite resource anymore.

ThatNeonZebraAgain

Yes. Siphon attacks should proc off damage over time effects. (Current)

Check out my thread on Siphoning Attacks in the PTS forum.

ScruffyWhiskers

Yes. Siphon attacks should proc off damage over time effects. (Current)

Love how not a single No vote can bother to come and post why not.

It's like Nerf NB's! I hate NB's. Whatever NB's are for, I'm against it!

myrrrorb14_ESO

I think we need a third option. Yes proc on DoTs but modify how it currently works.

Surge had similar issues with proc and was eventually and painfully brought into something still useable.

Tiphis

Yes. Siphon attacks should proc off damage over time effects. (Current)

Samphaa wrote: »

Huge nerf to NB tanks, quite a silly change imo

And naturally that's my main