What Do You Consider "Good" DPS?

UrQuan

NoMoreChillies wrote: »

wish there was a uniform mob to get dps results from, too many variables.

Lots of variables for sure - that's why I've been trying to test on a bunch of different targets to try to figure out what my baseline is.

Islyn

aLi3nZ wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

10k+ is acceptable, 15k-20k is top.

40k+ is sorc overlord rage mode.

Not sure if anyone mentioned. But I think this is all correct but only if it is a single target and maintained for 30-60seconds. Killed mobs with AOE can get my DPS up to 50k with liquid lightning and pulsar going, but single target is more like 10-13kDPS with no ultimate as a sourcer.

AOE does not count when measuring DPS.

Islyn

dday3six wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

30k-40k like i said is only sorc overload god territory.

DK's both Stamina and Magicka can pull 30k-35k, but yes to get any closer to 40k is pretty much only doable by a Magicka Sorc. However it's important to note that both instances are fully group supported, as in provided several group buffs to maximize damage output.

I'd love to see parses proving the above for Mana DK for this current patch because I seriously doubt that.

I cannot speak for Stam DK DPS because I rarely play with them in my groups other than in PVP.

Not being rude, honest - but the BEST players I know (I mean BEST BEST like VMA BEST) are NOT making those numbers on mana DK even with FULL support.

The DPS to which the OP refers is single target, sustained (more than 30 sec or even whole boss fight).

No one is talking about 15 sec AOE mobs when we talk about DPS.

Dexter411

I made threath about it. Most people said that "good dps" is around 15k-18k. 25k and above is top kek and so on.

Mojmir

its dead, im not, pledge is over, no one died....alot

dday3six

Islyn wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

30k-40k like i said is only sorc overload god territory.

DK's both Stamina and Magicka can pull 30k-35k, but yes to get any closer to 40k is pretty much only doable by a Magicka Sorc. However it's important to note that both instances are fully group supported, as in provided several group buffs to maximize damage output.

I'd love to see parses proving the above for Mana DK for this current patch because I seriously doubt that.

I cannot speak for Stam DK DPS because I rarely play with them in my groups other than in PVP.

Not being rude, honest - but the BEST players I know (I mean BEST BEST like VMA BEST) are NOT making those numbers on mana DK even with FULL support.

The DPS to which the OP refers is single target, sustained (more than 30 sec or even whole boss fight).

No one is talking about 15 sec AOE mobs when we talk about DPS.

http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/pvewhips-n-chains-the-naughty-version-of-magicka-dk-by-iwm/

There is a parse for Mantikora of 33k in the OP parse/media section.

Rylana

When you measure DPS, you have to have a control situation.

The reason, is because of time. A lot of the people spouting 25k+ DPS usually run in premade groups that kill bosses in 30 seconds. And in reality, all four contribute heavily to the DPS. Even healers. This means all of their initial buffup and precharged ultimates are counted in what is really a 30 second burst. Pay attention to the duration of DK standard and Nova, as well as meteor ticks. Then realize the shorter the fight, the heavier that ultimate burst is weighted.

Want to check real DPS? Take a healer/tank with you, work your way to the Blood Spawn boss in Vet Spindle, and then solo DPS him without any help. He has just under 1.6 million health.

If you can do it in under 90 seconds your DPS is very good (about 20k). If you can kill him in under 3 minutes your DPS is enough for anything (about 10k). Most players cannot finish him before the 2-minute mark where he goes "rage mode" permaquake (finishing right at the 2 minute mark is 15k dps approximately). Simple is as simple does. It is actually rare to see a player clock over 20k in this test, even overload sorcs. Only a choice few ever go much higher.

Add-on numbers are also a potential fallacy, dont trust them, like if adds are present, or youre sharing DPS time with another player that has a big gap with you (a high DPS overloader paired with someone that has relatively mediocre DPS will favor the mediocre guy because engagement time is shorter, therefore initial ults + execute range gets factored much more heavily), or if you happen to be running with "that guy" who is probably a healer, that just radiants the boss at the end and posts a 10 second 20k.

LadyNalcarya

~15k is more or less acceptable for daily pledges.
20k is good.
25k is even better.
30+ is top.
Single target of course.

But of course, 30k parses require a good team. Dont think its possible (unless you're sorc with overload) when a healer thinks its not his job to support the team, tank loses aggro all the time or doesnt have taunt and another dd pulls whooping 5k dps.

Arkraptor

All numbers are single target, and sustained (meaning you can maintain them for 1-2 minutes, not just bursting).

10k is the typical quoted minimum dps to finish vWGT/vICP without a lot of hardship. Both dps will have to pull this much, and gives very little margin of error. 10k is very easily achievable by build that has both 20% spell/wep damage, +10% crit buff, a DoT, and a spammable; and decent set gear.

15k-20k -- very good dps for majority of people not in top 1% of players. If you pull this much damage, most content will be very doable (provided you don't die), including trials. A lot of the time, you can even ignore some, if not all, of boss mechanics and do fast burn if both dps can pull this number (e.g., second boss in vCOA, SO's Possessed Mantikora). Generally requires fairly optimized build, gear, and rotation.

25k+ -- top end dps. Generally only achievable with the very best build/gear/rotation, plus additional buffs from allies (typical ones are Aggressive Warhorn, Spell Power Cure). Will generally run spell/weapon power pots.

30k+ -- godlike. Very few players will pull this number. Definitely require as much buff from teammates (100% uptime of warhorn, SPC), must set up the fight fairly well (have ult at the beginning, etc).

Then there is the other category:

40k+ -- you must be a sorc. (Also, the fight must be very well set up, must have full overload and short enough fight so that the much lower non-overload dps doesn't pull the number down too much). I actually consider this burst damage, as you can not possibly sustain this number over a long fight.

Jar_Ek

Basically 10k sustained is decent DPS, 15k is good and 20k+ is very good.

code65536

Rylana wrote: »

When you measure DPS, you have to have a control situation.

The reason, is because of time. A lot of the people spouting 25k+ DPS usually run in premade groups that kill bosses in 30 seconds. And in reality, all four contribute heavily to the DPS. Even healers. This means all of their initial buffup and precharged ultimates are counted in what is really a 30 second burst. Pay attention to the duration of DK standard and Nova, as well as meteor ticks. Then realize the shorter the fight, the heavier that ultimate burst is weighted.

Want to check real DPS? Take a healer/tank with you, work your way to the Blood Spawn boss in Vet Spindle, and then solo DPS him without any help. He has just under 1.6 million health.

If you can do it in under 90 seconds your DPS is very good (about 20k). If you can kill him in under 3 minutes your DPS is enough for anything (about 10k). Most players cannot finish him before the 2-minute mark where he goes "rage mode" permaquake (finishing right at the 2 minute mark is 15k dps approximately). Simple is as simple does. It is actually rare to see a player clock over 20k in this test, even overload sorcs. Only a choice few ever go much higher.

Add-on numbers are also a potential fallacy, dont trust them, like if adds are present, or youre sharing DPS time with another player that has a big gap with you (a high DPS overloader paired with someone that has relatively mediocre DPS will favor the mediocre guy because engagement time is shorter, therefore initial ults + execute range gets factored much more heavily), or if you happen to be running with "that guy" who is probably a healer, that just radiants the boss at the end and posts a 10 second 20k.

Exactly.

A lot of the very high numbers that you see are also in short fights. I see people posting 25K DPS on a Crematorial Guard fight that took under 30 seconds. That's too much burst.

One guild that I'm in did Blood Spawn DPS tests in two parts. The first test was one where ultimates were forbidden, and where the tank and healer provided no buffs or debuffs (you can provide your own, of course, at the cost of your casting time, bar space, and resources). The second test was one where ultimates were allowed, and where the tank provided a debuff via Pierce Armor and where the healer used Combat Prayer and that Templar passive that grants spell damage. As a point of reference, my DK did a bit over 17K and a bit under 21K in the restricted and unrestricted tests, respectively.

It's not a hard test to set up--just find a couple of friends with a few moments of time willing to tank and heal it.

Oh, and GroupDamage is pretty useful in seeing how your total damage stacks up against others in a fight--the data is updated in real time as the fight progresses, so you can see things like spikes during ultimates and executes and dips when people have to move or deal with mechanics. It's far more informative than the single number that FTC spits out at the end of a fight.

NBrookus

UrQuan wrote: »

Thanks for all of the replies so far everyone (including from a guildie ). Since I started this thread I've been running around testing my numbers solo on world bosses and public dungeon bosses. It's starting to look like I can usually pull about 12-13K without using ultimates and about 18-19K using ultimates.

That's if I don't need to spend much time dodging, blocking, and interrupting. If I'm spending too much time worrying about dancing around to stay alive my numbers drop. Also, those fights don't last long enough to start to strain my resources - long enough that I'm not measuring burst, but not long enough to show what I end up with when I start to run low on magicka.

All told, though, based on what people are saying I'm fairly happy with those numbers. I figure that if I'm benefiting from buffs & debuffs provided by other party members, that should at least partly offset any drop I may see if I need to spend much time worrying about mechanics or running low on magicka.

I'll keep monitoring it for a while to see if my initial testing today has been representative.

I'd be happy with those numbers. Dodging and bar swapping really hurts my numbers; I think it's why I drop off so much in dungeons. Can't quite get the hang of sorcerers. No matter, this toon is destined to be a support PvP toon as soon as I get my Undaunted up.

If you ever want to do the Blood Spawn test, I'll tank for you. Might be an interesting guild event to do.

UrQuan

NBrookus wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

Thanks for all of the replies so far everyone (including from a guildie ). Since I started this thread I've been running around testing my numbers solo on world bosses and public dungeon bosses. It's starting to look like I can usually pull about 12-13K without using ultimates and about 18-19K using ultimates.

That's if I don't need to spend much time dodging, blocking, and interrupting. If I'm spending too much time worrying about dancing around to stay alive my numbers drop. Also, those fights don't last long enough to start to strain my resources - long enough that I'm not measuring burst, but not long enough to show what I end up with when I start to run low on magicka.

All told, though, based on what people are saying I'm fairly happy with those numbers. I figure that if I'm benefiting from buffs & debuffs provided by other party members, that should at least partly offset any drop I may see if I need to spend much time worrying about mechanics or running low on magicka.

I'll keep monitoring it for a while to see if my initial testing today has been representative.

I'd be happy with those numbers. Dodging and bar swapping really hurts my numbers; I think it's why I drop off so much in dungeons. Can't quite get the hang of sorcerers. No matter, this toon is destined to be a support PvP toon as soon as I get my Undaunted up.

If you ever want to do the Blood Spawn test, I'll tank for you. Might be an interesting guild event to do.

I'm probably going to take you up on that some time in the next week or two

Savos_Saren

I know that one of my guilds has a pretty standard DPS test that doesn't require a Blood Spawn trip:

If you have the Orsinium DLC- hop over to Wrothgar and fight a single mammoth. Don't let anyone help you and don't use any ultimates. Try this about four or five times and average your DPS from each encounter. Boom. There's your sustained DPS.

12K DPS is "good" by their standards. Anything less and they suggest that you should probably work on your rotation or build.

UrQuan

jaburns wrote: »

I know that one of my guilds has a pretty standard DPS test that doesn't require a Blood Spawn trip:

If you have the Orsinium DLC- hop over to Wrothgar and fight a single mammoth. Don't let anyone help you and don't use any ultimates. Try this about four or five times and average your DPS from each encounter. Boom. There's your sustained DPS.

12K DPS is "good" by their standards. Anything less and they suggest that you should probably work on your rotation or build.

That's one thing I've been doing (along with testing on world bosses and public dungeon bosses), but I find the mammoths (and giants - I've been doing it on the giants in Wrothgar too) die too quickly for me to really consider that as a good benchmark for sustained DPS. Although I guess since I'm not using ultimates while killing them, maybe it is a pretty good approximation. I find that when killing Wrothgar mammoths and giants without using any ultimates I'm averaging about 12-13K.

wildbear247

I'm still fairly new to the group dungeon scene, so this has been an very informative thread on DPS...thanks for the insight all

My biggest concern was I wanted to ensure my DPS numbers were fulfilling the damage output my team expects of me. As I'm hovering around 15k DPS on mammoths on in Wrothgar I'm happy with my raw numbers (although as others have noted I need a target with more health to get a more accurate idea of my sustained DPS). However I also notice my DPS dips if the battle mechanics requires a lot of movement from me or the boss is flitting all over the place (I'm thinking of the final boss in veteran CoH that I fought for the first time last night...lol...he would continually teleport to the other side of the battleground to spawn his adds, that slippery rascal).

Oreyn_Bearclaw

-I would say that anything below 10k suggests that your build is fundamentally flawed in some way, or DPS just isn't your thing.

-The 10-15K range is adequate for most content, certainly all vet dungeons (you might struggle in VICP), but you are going to need to pay attention to mechanics.

-15-20k puts you in the "you know what you are doing" category, but you arent breaking any records. The only situation where this might not be okay is a raid group going for a leaderboard spot.

-I would say competitive DPS starts above the 20k mark for any fight longer than about 45 seconds (no longer a burst). Its also the mark where you can ignore most mechanics in vet content. Any class can hit this number with the right build. Really competitive players are pulling around the 25K mark, and 30k is outstanding if you can truly sustain it single target. I think that is doable with the right rotation, gear, and CP allocation, but you need help. Things need to die fast, and you need buffs like SPC, War horn, combat prayer, etc.

-Sorc overload is a whole different story. Its hard to call this sustained, because it is ultimate dependent. I am generally shooting for about 30K on a normal fight that I am dumping my overload. Crematorial Guards are a sorc's wet dream because they are short fights and they are vulnerable to shock damage. I have hit 44k on a guard, but that doesnt really mean much as it is not transferable to any other fight.

Savos_Saren

UrQuan wrote: »

jaburns wrote: »

I know that one of my guilds has a pretty standard DPS test that doesn't require a Blood Spawn trip:

If you have the Orsinium DLC- hop over to Wrothgar and fight a single mammoth. Don't let anyone help you and don't use any ultimates. Try this about four or five times and average your DPS from each encounter. Boom. There's your sustained DPS.

12K DPS is "good" by their standards. Anything less and they suggest that you should probably work on your rotation or build.

That's one thing I've been doing (along with testing on world bosses and public dungeon bosses), but I find the mammoths (and giants - I've been doing it on the giants in Wrothgar too) die too quickly for me to really consider that as a good benchmark for sustained DPS. Although I guess since I'm not using ultimates while killing them, maybe it is a pretty good approximation. I find that when killing Wrothgar mammoths and giants without using any ultimates I'm averaging about 12-13K.

Yeah, I know what you mean. With my MagBlade- I get about 14-16K DPS on the mammoths... but with my StamBlade- it's disgusting. About 5 hits and the mammoth's toast. Easily 20K. With my MagTank, though... I only get 5k. But it's a tank, ya know?

code65536

jaburns wrote: »

I know that one of my guilds has a pretty standard DPS test that doesn't require a Blood Spawn trip:

If you have the Orsinium DLC- hop over to Wrothgar and fight a single mammoth. Don't let anyone help you and don't use any ultimates. Try this about four or five times and average your DPS from each encounter. Boom. There's your sustained DPS.

12K DPS is "good" by their standards. Anything less and they suggest that you should probably work on your rotation or build.

The mammoths are fine for very, very, very rough testing. But I still want Blood Spawn numbers. You want a fight that's long enough that the player has to worry about things like rebuffing and sustaining resources. One of my friends got a lower DPS than I did for Blood Spawn when our guild did their testing (even though he's a much better player than I and usually gets better DPS), and he explained that the problem was that he ran out of resources at the end and ended up having to heavy-attack. You don't get to test those kinds of things with mammoths.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Mammoths are simply not a reliable test for DPS. They go down way to quickly. If bloodspawn is a bad option, get a tanky friend to hold a world boss in place for you.

I have found one use for mammoths. I learned my DPS rotation by using a level 1 staff and fighting mammoths naked. The numbers dont mean anything, but they stay a live long enough to get through a full rotation.

Nestor

UrQuan wrote: »

Kammakazi wrote: »

Jealous of you PC people and your add-ons........

:'(

For the record, I actually hate most of the features FTC gives you - I can't stand cluttering up my UI with most of it. But it sure is nice to have the option to use addons like that, and the really nice thing about FTC in particular (which I didn't realize until someone on the forums told me) is that it's set up so that you can customize which specific features you want to use, and how they'll appear.

But yeah, access to addons is one of the top reasons why I would never switch from PC to console.

As we talked last night, I was using Advanced UI and had the flying numbers, but could never read them as they went by too fast. I now use Combat Log Statistics instead. Still can't read it in combat, but after I can look at it and see how my skills are contributing. I still use AUI as it has a nice small DPS meter that I can park on top of my Mini Map so it's unobtrusive. I think FTC has a combat log to use too.

I think it's also important to know how much each skill or attack you do does, rather than overall DPS per say. I have stopped using some skills because they really don't do that much damage compared to other skills. DPS comes from Weaving and being in position to just melt down the mobs, which is not always possible in a fight. We need to move around.

Brrrofski

leepalmer95 wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

freespirit wrote: »

I use no addons, so like you I do not know........

I know that I can solo dolmens, world bosses(obviously not wrothgar), get invited back for trials and do fine when I dps group dungeons......

Although I suspect the fact I always make sure I have self heals/shields available may be more relevant than my actual damage output.

I may not do the highest damage but at least I'm usually alive!

Yeah, I'm in a similar boat for sure. I don't typically run shields on my Templar when I'm DPSing, but I've always got heals available, and I can swap stuff up a lot depending on what's needed for any given fight so I think I bring enough utility to a group that even if my DPS isn't up to par (I mean, I think it's up to par, but I don't know for sure) I won't be dragging a group down unless it's an uber-elite group.

MaxwellCrystal wrote: »

For me as a stamina DK I believe 30k Stamina and 4K+ Weapon DPS (buffed) is great, any more stamina then that's even better. If I use food I'd have 35k Stamina + just about 4.3k weapon damage (buffed) now fully buffed I'd hit almost 4.4k or higher (minor brutality).

Thanks, but I'm actually asking about how much damage people would be expecting a decent DPS player to be putting out at VR16. So I'm not really wondering about the stats that show on the character sheet, but the actual numbers measured over a relatively sustained fight. As you're on console, I don't believe there's actually a way for you to be able to tell your DPS. On PC we need to use addons to track it.

10k is enough for random vet dungeons are such apart from Vprison/Vwgt, there a dps 'race' type of thing in them. Though if people ar only putting this out and actually die to circles i get annoyed

15K is good enough for trial, vdsa etc... if your group is good and you don't die to circle (a dead dps isn't a dps) you could likely do prison/Vwgt without too much trouble.

20k is vey nice dps, capable to do anything in the game, just make sure you have enough resources and don't run around with 15k hp unless your a sorc with hardened ward.

25k is very good, only a few builds/classes can actually reach this high though.

30k-40k like i said is only sorc overload god territory.

See, I don't find vwgt too bad. It's a lot easier than the prison. It's just that Harvester boss at the beginning which is the real pain.