Was RNG the only option? (Serious question)

khele23eb17_ESO

pronkg wrote: »

For them it's trying to find that very very thin line between making profit and keeping their customers happy. A small and easy change can have huge consequences.

This is what I dont like about the f2p model. Just by its very definition it requires the devs to put the cool stuff in the cash shop (so its bought and they make money) instead of turning the cool stuff into rewards in game (so players are motivated to keep playing/paying in order to obtain that stuff).

Sausage

RNG was chosen because it hadnt been done in last few year, especially Western Devs dont like to do it, at least to this length. I think it was right call. So that said RNG gives nice twist to ESO, especially towards Western Players.

pronkg

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

pronkg wrote: »

For them it's trying to find that very very thin line between making profit and keeping their customers happy. A small and easy change can have huge consequences.

This is what I dont like about the f2p model. Just by its very definition it requires the devs to put the cool stuff in the cash shop (so its bought and they make money) instead of turning the cool stuff into rewards in game (so players are motivated to keep playing/paying in order to obtain that stuff).

Well yeah, thats to expect from mainstream games that need constant development and support. They need a constant flow of income. People are less willing to pay subscriptions nowadays so b2p is nearly inevitable. At least they tried and had the choice at first. Most developers start with b2p in the first place.

There's always a better way and always room for improvements, but everything always comes with a price. This is something we need to accept.

I try not to think about these things to much and just enjoy the game, I play for stress relief and comfort

khele23eb17_ESO

Sausage wrote: »

RNG was chosen because it hadnt been done in last few year, especially Western Devs dont like to do it, at least to this length. I think it was right call. So that said RNG gives nice twist to ESO, especially towards Western Players.

I dont think so. Its simply the most time and cost effective way of doing things but unfortunately it removes a lot of appeal from the game. You develop content that is easy to complete to avoid having to come up with challenging and innovative encounter mechanics and tweaking the difficulty so that it forces players to attempt multiple tries but doesnt make encounters impossible. Also having to balance content for different classes/group compositions is not an issue. So you do that - make content thats easily farmable (and easy to create) then slap a few rewards on it (only a few... rest goes to the cash shop) with 0.5% drop chance and youre set.

sadownik

Sausage wrote: »

RNG was chosen because it hadnt been done in last few year, especially Western Devs dont like to do it, at least to this length. I think it was right call. So that said RNG gives nice twist to ESO, especially towards Western Players.

I dont know if you are serious, hope not.

Anyways, Z. implemented one of the worst if not the worst rng system i have seen. Its rng on so many lvls...

-get the right type of item
-right lvl item
-right trait item
... it makes getting the things you need a pain in the arse. But with crafting system designed for ESO you shouldn't expect anything else.

Getting decent quality items for your lvl should not be a problem - the rng should start with the highest quality items - but since you can upgrade those Z. was left with only choice - put rng on all lvls so that players will repeat the content over and over again. Or quit.

NewBlacksmurf

hayaschwarz wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Draxys wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

I'm definately not in favor of any token system.
RNG is fine, the larger issue is that ppl want things fast and don't for whatever reason enjoy the hunt which makes the reward much
More worthwhile.

Lol. Slaving through 60 runs of vet coa for a single helm, no matter wtf it is, is wanting something too fast? No one is saying they want to get exactly what they want the first time the waltz into content and never touch it again. But rng is in no way making eso's content "more worthwhile". It's making it more of a painful chore.

Uhm that's the whole point. I'm not sure what other games you've played but for a reward, if it's easily attainable, for me, it's not a real reward. I like that people are doing many runs but what's interesting in that people are complaining about a specific item and how the game drops those items but ignoring how many other good items are being dropped.

The idea of this system is to generate different possibilities that actually have lower percentages to drop. The good about this is that one person wants X while another wants Y and Z drops but if offers situations where X drops with diff traits and enchants which may cause someone to roll an alt to consider playing differently now that they see X, Y or Z more often but aren't getting what they want.

The other and more important concept is that the longer it takes to get a specific drop, the larger the pool of participants grows so that once someone gets an item, they are willing to help another due to they challenge they experienced. Also, for those who haven't got their reward, they keep going after it and will have many others to join them.

This is a good thing.
If everyone ran and the drops were a lot less random as well as having a token system, content gets dull or you end up with a WoW concept where there is 2-3 versions of the same items with slightly better stats obtained by tiring difficulty of the same encounter which gets boring. I personally prefer what exists here and understand why others do not but its my preference and opinion that this system causes a better situation and maintains a high value for specific rewards.

Can you please explain how this is a good Thing:
- For WGT there is only one Set worth using, which is Spell Power Cure, how getting other Sets will be a reward for the Player?
- To obtain Spell Power Cure set for my Healer, I ran the VR WGT about 300 times, until I got the full set with acceptable traits, is farming the hell out of one dungeon until you are sick of it a good Thing?
- Same Players who were always in my Group farming the hell out of the WGT still don't have the set complete, must we farm the dungeon even more to get what we want/Need?
- If it is worth mentioning, with all the runs I did in VR WGT, I still don’t have a full set of overwhelming!

The Spell Power Cure set isn't the only Set in the history of ESO, following are more examples:
- Scathing Mage
- Vicious Ophidian till the end of 1.5
- Infallible Aether till the end of 1.5
- Aether set from the start of the game till the end of 1.5
- The Lich Set
- All Monster Helmets and shoulders (a friend of mine still doesn't have Valkyn Helmet!)

I respect your opinion, that you would like difficulty in the game to obtain your gear. But I don’t want to play one dungeons hundreds of times, until I get what I want, and obviously the majority of the community. And always on top of that as in WGT as an example, you have 6 different sets, with each 7 pieces, and with 6 different traits (only 2 usable, arguably 4) and all of that mainly on 4 bosses, so basically you have 1 of 1008 if each kill have 100% drop chance, but you still on top of that have a chance on drop of a set item on each boss!

Their way of fixing that was by introducing a new System, where you can buy anything with Gold or AP. Which is in my opinion good, but not in exchange for Gold (as you can buy gold “illegally” from websites, or you are forced to farm gold and AP rather than playing the game). If it was some sort of token system (like TVS) while doing normal activities, and then you can buy gear from Vendors with those tokens it will make the game more rewarding, and give a fair chance to obtain the gear you want.

It's good for the life of the game. It may not be "good" for your drop rate desires but otherwise it's fine.
You are only looking at one side and that's your particular obstacle for the specific gear you want.

So for others...if you're a crafter and want to fill research or gather mats it's great.
If you are willing to play and try out different mix and match pieces with diff skills and play styles, it's great.
If you want a game that encourages replaying content for group activities, this is a better system of those I've participated in since 1995-ish.

If you only want to play one specific build...and only want specific gear then realize you'll have many others running the encounters over and over again which is also very good

Sausage

sadownik wrote: »

Sausage wrote: »

RNG was chosen because it hadnt been done in last few year, especially Western Devs dont like to do it, at least to this length. I think it was right call. So that said RNG gives nice twist to ESO, especially towards Western Players.

I dont know if you are serious, hope not.

Anyways, Z. implemented one of the worst if not the worst rng system i have seen. Its rng on so many lvls...

-get the right type of item
-right lvl item
-right trait item
... it makes getting the things you need a pain in the arse. But with crafting system designed for ESO you shouldn't expect anything else.

Getting decent quality items for your lvl should not be a problem - the rng should start with the highest quality items - but since you can upgrade those Z. was left with only choice - put rng on all lvls so that players will repeat the content over and over again. Or quit.

No, RNG was debated like half year or 1 year prior PC-launch. I think its gives nice own recognition for ESO. Why you want blend with everybody else when you can do things differently? RNG comes from the East, like China, Korea etc. Its quite unknown in the West. ESO should embrace it, imho.

Rune_Relic

Do you want a guaranteed % chance or do you want a random % chance ?

1 in 100 could be RNG or it could be an accumulator which resets every 100 tries and gives you a gift.

Guaranteed Chance vs Random Chance.

IMHO when someones says you have a 1 in100 chance I expect to get something once every 100 goes.
Not well maybe if you are lucky and the RNG doesn't bug out or something.

Same with crit chance.
Random or guaranteed ?
People always calculate and compare raw damge vs crit damage on the bases the %chance is guaranteed and not random.
Out of 60 hits I have seen it vary from 10-20 crits per combat session with 25%( +-8%)
That's some leeway

Shogunami

It's RNG, but it's not RNG enough (or the wrong kind of RNG, maybe). There should be a bigger "loot pool" with gear that can drop, maybe they could guarantee a drop from certain bosses or quests but make the item that drop random - as well as some random stats. (Useful items! Not the generic 99% crappy vendor stuff)
While they're at it they could remove half of the traits or at least make them even remotely useful, and they could also overhaul all of the sets in the game.

I'd rather be able find awesome gear that in the long run could rival some sets and their bonuses. Most set bonuses are boring and more or less essential. Kind of takes the exciting part out of the game. I'd rather be able to mix and match to my hearts' content rather than have to have a certain set to even be able to perform well or compete.

Anemonean

As far as monster helms go I see a pretty easy way to keep at least 1 lvl of the RNG intact while cutting out the bullsnip that gets so many people riled up.

Just make it so that every helm bearing boss you kill has a chance of dropping a "token" in this case their head. So at the same chance that you would normally find a monster helm instead you now get that monsters head as a token item.
You then bring the head to an undaunted craftsman npc who takes the head and makes you a helm with your desired trait, provided you have the stone for it. Honestly that actually sounds even more believable than you, the hero, slaying the bloodspawn then grabbing his head and forcing it onto your own as soon as you get it off his body.

Do the same thing with shoulders. the token you get from chests is a sample of that monsters hide (Maulbeth's Tattered Hide, Engine Guardian Scrap, Kena's broken spaulder, etc.) you still get these items at the same rate you would normally get shoulders but now you have to bring them to the undaunted craftsman who turns them into a shoulder piece with your desired trait, again only if you have the required stone as well (not that trait stones are hard to get).

Granted this was mentioned before in this thread but I thought I'd just give an example of how it would not only work but would fit in game as well as mechanically.

That or skip that whole thing and just give us a quest to re-trait armor and weapons.

Sausage

Shogunami wrote: »

It's RNG, but it's not RNG enough (or the wrong kind of RNG, maybe). There should be a bigger "loot pool" with gear that can drop, maybe they could guarantee a drop from certain bosses or quests but make the item that drop random - as well as some random stats. (Useful items! Not the generic 99% crappy vendor stuff)
While they're at it they could remove half of the traits or at least make them even remotely useful, and they could also overhaul all of the sets in the game.

I'd rather be able find awesome gear that in the long run could rival some sets and their bonuses. Most set bonuses are boring and more or less essential. Kind of takes the exciting part out of the game. I'd rather be able to mix and match to my hearts' content rather than have to have a certain set to even be able to perform well or compete.

Agreed. Theres big loot pool of green, blue, purple, legendary items (maybe add even couple more of those) but they are all joke, even you find Legendary items, it just make your day worse, not better, they need to add more value to those items. I believe RNG can be very fun system to be honest, is just gotta be right, what ESO's isnt. Also to make loot pool bigger, they should add CP-boosters, green 50%, blue, 100%, purple 150% and legendary 200%, what Ive said.

Mush55

Gets a bit of a joke after numerous Crypt of hearts runs and no helm to group up with a guild mate and he gets it on his first run.

Is that the way to keep me interested ??????????????????????????

Gidorick

Mush55 wrote: »

Gets a bit of a joke after numerous Crypt of hearts runs and no helm to group up with a guild mate and he gets it on his first run.

Is that the way to keep me interested ??????????????????????????

That doesn’t motivate you to just try one (hundred) more time(s) @Mush55 ?

Yea. It's a terrible design.

Drakilian

Welcome, to

DanielMaxwell

Sausage wrote: »

sadownik wrote: »

Sausage wrote: »

RNG was chosen because it hadnt been done in last few year, especially Western Devs dont like to do it, at least to this length. I think it was right call. So that said RNG gives nice twist to ESO, especially towards Western Players.

I dont know if you are serious, hope not.

Anyways, Z. implemented one of the worst if not the worst rng system i have seen. Its rng on so many lvls...

-get the right type of item
-right lvl item
-right trait item
... it makes getting the things you need a pain in the arse. But with crafting system designed for ESO you shouldn't expect anything else.

Getting decent quality items for your lvl should not be a problem - the rng should start with the highest quality items - but since you can upgrade those Z. was left with only choice - put rng on all lvls so that players will repeat the content over and over again. Or quit.

No, RNG was debated like half year or 1 year prior PC-launch. I think its gives nice own recognition for ESO. Why you want blend with everybody else when you can do things differently? RNG comes from the East, like China, Korea etc. Its quite unknown in the West. ESO should embrace it, imho.

I do believe the old paper and pencil games (D&D comes to mind , there are many others) would like to have a word with you about how old RNG loot systems are. The fisrt version of Neverwinter Nights that was on America On-Line used a RNG loot system , along with Ultima online , Everquest , WoW , AoC , and pretty much every MMO in the past 25 years.

As for who fist did it , that is going to be even more difficult to find out .The use of RNG to provide rewards in games is as old as the concept of games of chance . RNG is just an electronic version of games of chance.

PBpsy

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Do you want a guaranteed % chance or do you want a random % chance ?

1 in 100 could be RNG or it could be an accumulator which resets every 100 tries and gives you a gift.

Guaranteed Chance vs Random Chance.

IMHO when someones says you have a 1 in100 chance I expect to get something once every 100 goes.
Not well maybe if you are lucky and the RNG doesn't bug out or something.

Same with crit chance.
Random or guaranteed ?
People always calculate and compare raw damge vs crit damage on the bases the %chance is guaranteed and not random.
Out of 60 hits I have seen it vary from 10-20 crits per combat session with 25%( +-8%)
That's some leeway

Fun fact when someone says "1 in 100 chance" what they say is :
-37% Chance of you getting nothing in 100 runs.
-37% Chance of you getting exactly one.
-26% Chance of you getting 2 or more.
That is what it means and it really isn't a matter of opinion.
What you say is actually :"You get one if you do it 100 times". Mostly a token system without tokens. I would love it.

hayaschwarz

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

hayaschwarz wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Draxys wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

I'm definately not in favor of any token system.
RNG is fine, the larger issue is that ppl want things fast and don't for whatever reason enjoy the hunt which makes the reward much
More worthwhile.

Lol. Slaving through 60 runs of vet coa for a single helm, no matter wtf it is, is wanting something too fast? No one is saying they want to get exactly what they want the first time the waltz into content and never touch it again. But rng is in no way making eso's content "more worthwhile". It's making it more of a painful chore.

Uhm that's the whole point. I'm not sure what other games you've played but for a reward, if it's easily attainable, for me, it's not a real reward. I like that people are doing many runs but what's interesting in that people are complaining about a specific item and how the game drops those items but ignoring how many other good items are being dropped.

The idea of this system is to generate different possibilities that actually have lower percentages to drop. The good about this is that one person wants X while another wants Y and Z drops but if offers situations where X drops with diff traits and enchants which may cause someone to roll an alt to consider playing differently now that they see X, Y or Z more often but aren't getting what they want.

The other and more important concept is that the longer it takes to get a specific drop, the larger the pool of participants grows so that once someone gets an item, they are willing to help another due to they challenge they experienced. Also, for those who haven't got their reward, they keep going after it and will have many others to join them.

This is a good thing.
If everyone ran and the drops were a lot less random as well as having a token system, content gets dull or you end up with a WoW concept where there is 2-3 versions of the same items with slightly better stats obtained by tiring difficulty of the same encounter which gets boring. I personally prefer what exists here and understand why others do not but its my preference and opinion that this system causes a better situation and maintains a high value for specific rewards.

Can you please explain how this is a good Thing:
- For WGT there is only one Set worth using, which is Spell Power Cure, how getting other Sets will be a reward for the Player?
- To obtain Spell Power Cure set for my Healer, I ran the VR WGT about 300 times, until I got the full set with acceptable traits, is farming the hell out of one dungeon until you are sick of it a good Thing?
- Same Players who were always in my Group farming the hell out of the WGT still don't have the set complete, must we farm the dungeon even more to get what we want/Need?
- If it is worth mentioning, with all the runs I did in VR WGT, I still don’t have a full set of overwhelming!

The Spell Power Cure set isn't the only Set in the history of ESO, following are more examples:
- Scathing Mage
- Vicious Ophidian till the end of 1.5
- Infallible Aether till the end of 1.5
- Aether set from the start of the game till the end of 1.5
- The Lich Set
- All Monster Helmets and shoulders (a friend of mine still doesn't have Valkyn Helmet!)

I respect your opinion, that you would like difficulty in the game to obtain your gear. But I don’t want to play one dungeons hundreds of times, until I get what I want, and obviously the majority of the community. And always on top of that as in WGT as an example, you have 6 different sets, with each 7 pieces, and with 6 different traits (only 2 usable, arguably 4) and all of that mainly on 4 bosses, so basically you have 1 of 1008 if each kill have 100% drop chance, but you still on top of that have a chance on drop of a set item on each boss!

Their way of fixing that was by introducing a new System, where you can buy anything with Gold or AP. Which is in my opinion good, but not in exchange for Gold (as you can buy gold “illegally” from websites, or you are forced to farm gold and AP rather than playing the game). If it was some sort of token system (like TVS) while doing normal activities, and then you can buy gear from Vendors with those tokens it will make the game more rewarding, and give a fair chance to obtain the gear you want.

It's good for the life of the game. It may not be "good" for your drop rate desires but otherwise it's fine.
You are only looking at one side and that's your particular obstacle for the specific gear you want.

So for others...if you're a crafter and want to fill research or gather mats it's great.
If you are willing to play and try out different mix and match pieces with diff skills and play styles, it's great.
If you want a game that encourages replaying content for group activities, this is a better system of those I've participated in since 1995-ish.

If you only want to play one specific build...and only want specific gear then realize you'll have many others running the encounters over and over again which is also very good

The topic discussed here is the RNG of the game, why is crafting relevant by any means! Even if I consider your viewpoint, you can get the traits for research from normal activities.

And the concept of playing a specific content is for it to be rewarding, otherwise one visit will suffice!
“willing to play”, “match pieces with diff skills”: Since when ESO provides combination between gear and skills, except when you go for stamina (5 medium) or magicka (5 light). The Imperial City is released almost 5 months ago, and lots of players still don’t have one full set of any which drop in the group dungeons.

And we are now in 2016 and not in 1995! Encouraging players to play the content can’t happen while you provide cheap RNG, and frustrate the players with the drop rate. Rewarding system is what encourages players to play the game and not quit!

Septimus_Magna

RNG = grind until you get the right piece, luck is a big factor here.

Token = pure grind to get enough tokens to get the piece you want.

Im not sure why so many players want a Token system bc most people hated the trophy system that came with the IC DLC.

hayaschwarz

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

RNG = grind until you get the right piece, luck is a big factor here.

Token = pure grind to get enough tokens to get the piece you want.

Im not sure why so many players want a Token system bc most people hated the trophy system that came with the IC DLC.

I think a combination of both should do the trick. If we still get our stuff randomly while we are doing content, and like in IC you get tokens to by killing i.e. dungeons bosses, finishing quests and closing dolmens. The tokens should enable the player to buy gear pieces from vendors, and not like in IC buy boxes with random trait drop! So if you are collecting a Set, and still missing one piece, or looking for one piece with better trait, you can buy it rather than farming the content repeatedly without reward.
The tokens shouldn’t replace the need to do the content, just work as a support system of RNG-drop. So it should be almost impossible to buy a full set of specific gear, but still be able to get one or two missing pieces.

RatedChaotic

Ya wish they would tweak it alittle. I lost count of the sets I vendor trashed because them not being of lvl,trait,armor class, nontradable and so on.

eliisra

I think it's more a case of them not having the resources to just poff out completely new systems. There's no existing structure for trading with tokens.

They cant even complete a barber system and that's the Number One most asked for thing in any MMORPG. They had almost 2 years to develop a system that allows us to change appearance. Still nothing. Yet we expect new cross-instance system for token trading and currencies like right now. Something half the player base doesn't even care about.

We will be able to trade monster sets with gold/AP instead. That's their weak version of tokens, for now. It's pretty lame if you ask me, but better than nothing.

I fear they'll make everything BoE before you'll ever see any tokens. Because that's 100% times easier to do.

NewBlacksmurf

hayaschwarz wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

hayaschwarz wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Draxys wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

I'm definately not in favor of any token system.
RNG is fine, the larger issue is that ppl want things fast and don't for whatever reason enjoy the hunt which makes the reward much
More worthwhile.

Lol. Slaving through 60 runs of vet coa for a single helm, no matter wtf it is, is wanting something too fast? No one is saying they want to get exactly what they want the first time the waltz into content and never touch it again. But rng is in no way making eso's content "more worthwhile". It's making it more of a painful chore.

Uhm that's the whole point. I'm not sure what other games you've played but for a reward, if it's easily attainable, for me, it's not a real reward. I like that people are doing many runs but what's interesting in that people are complaining about a specific item and how the game drops those items but ignoring how many other good items are being dropped.

The idea of this system is to generate different possibilities that actually have lower percentages to drop. The good about this is that one person wants X while another wants Y and Z drops but if offers situations where X drops with diff traits and enchants which may cause someone to roll an alt to consider playing differently now that they see X, Y or Z more often but aren't getting what they want.

The other and more important concept is that the longer it takes to get a specific drop, the larger the pool of participants grows so that once someone gets an item, they are willing to help another due to they challenge they experienced. Also, for those who haven't got their reward, they keep going after it and will have many others to join them.

This is a good thing.
If everyone ran and the drops were a lot less random as well as having a token system, content gets dull or you end up with a WoW concept where there is 2-3 versions of the same items with slightly better stats obtained by tiring difficulty of the same encounter which gets boring. I personally prefer what exists here and understand why others do not but its my preference and opinion that this system causes a better situation and maintains a high value for specific rewards.

Can you please explain how this is a good Thing:
- For WGT there is only one Set worth using, which is Spell Power Cure, how getting other Sets will be a reward for the Player?
- To obtain Spell Power Cure set for my Healer, I ran the VR WGT about 300 times, until I got the full set with acceptable traits, is farming the hell out of one dungeon until you are sick of it a good Thing?
- Same Players who were always in my Group farming the hell out of the WGT still don't have the set complete, must we farm the dungeon even more to get what we want/Need?
- If it is worth mentioning, with all the runs I did in VR WGT, I still don’t have a full set of overwhelming!

The Spell Power Cure set isn't the only Set in the history of ESO, following are more examples:
- Scathing Mage
- Vicious Ophidian till the end of 1.5
- Infallible Aether till the end of 1.5
- Aether set from the start of the game till the end of 1.5
- The Lich Set
- All Monster Helmets and shoulders (a friend of mine still doesn't have Valkyn Helmet!)

I respect your opinion, that you would like difficulty in the game to obtain your gear. But I don’t want to play one dungeons hundreds of times, until I get what I want, and obviously the majority of the community. And always on top of that as in WGT as an example, you have 6 different sets, with each 7 pieces, and with 6 different traits (only 2 usable, arguably 4) and all of that mainly on 4 bosses, so basically you have 1 of 1008 if each kill have 100% drop chance, but you still on top of that have a chance on drop of a set item on each boss!

Their way of fixing that was by introducing a new System, where you can buy anything with Gold or AP. Which is in my opinion good, but not in exchange for Gold (as you can buy gold “illegally” from websites, or you are forced to farm gold and AP rather than playing the game). If it was some sort of token system (like TVS) while doing normal activities, and then you can buy gear from Vendors with those tokens it will make the game more rewarding, and give a fair chance to obtain the gear you want.

It's good for the life of the game. It may not be "good" for your drop rate desires but otherwise it's fine.
You are only looking at one side and that's your particular obstacle for the specific gear you want.

So for others...if you're a crafter and want to fill research or gather mats it's great.
If you are willing to play and try out different mix and match pieces with diff skills and play styles, it's great.
If you want a game that encourages replaying content for group activities, this is a better system of those I've participated in since 1995-ish.

If you only want to play one specific build...and only want specific gear then realize you'll have many others running the encounters over and over again which is also very good

The topic discussed here is the RNG of the game, why is crafting relevant by any means! Even if I consider your viewpoint, you can get the traits for research from normal activities.

And the concept of playing a specific content is for it to be rewarding, otherwise one visit will suffice!
“willing to play”, “match pieces with diff skills”: Since when ESO provides combination between gear and skills, except when you go for stamina (5 medium) or magicka (5 light). The Imperial City is released almost 5 months ago, and lots of players still don’t have one full set of any which drop in the group dungeons.

And we are now in 2016 and not in 1995! Encouraging players to play the content can’t happen while you provide cheap RNG, and frustrate the players with the drop rate. Rewarding system is what encourages players to play the game and not quit!

You're entitled to your opinion.

Sausage

Mush55 wrote: »

Gets a bit of a joke after numerous Crypt of hearts runs and no helm to group up with a guild mate and he gets it on his first run.

Is that the way to keep me interested ??????????????????????????

Loot pool needs to be bigger, there needs to be more useful stuff, so even you dont find that Helmet, you find something useful anyway, to ease your frustration. CP-booster could be one, I bet one Legendary CP-booster and player is willing to forget that Helmet for that moment, or if Purple and Legendary items had more value those too, why not some items what are very valuable in Gold.

DanielMaxwell wrote: »

Sausage wrote: »

sadownik wrote: »

Sausage wrote: »

RNG was chosen because it hadnt been done in last few year, especially Western Devs dont like to do it, at least to this length. I think it was right call. So that said RNG gives nice twist to ESO, especially towards Western Players.

I dont know if you are serious, hope not.

Anyways, Z. implemented one of the worst if not the worst rng system i have seen. Its rng on so many lvls...

-get the right type of item
-right lvl item
-right trait item
... it makes getting the things you need a pain in the arse. But with crafting system designed for ESO you shouldn't expect anything else.

Getting decent quality items for your lvl should not be a problem - the rng should start with the highest quality items - but since you can upgrade those Z. was left with only choice - put rng on all lvls so that players will repeat the content over and over again. Or quit.

No, RNG was debated like half year or 1 year prior PC-launch. I think its gives nice own recognition for ESO. Why you want blend with everybody else when you can do things differently? RNG comes from the East, like China, Korea etc. Its quite unknown in the West. ESO should embrace it, imho.

I do believe the old paper and pencil games (D&D comes to mind , there are many others) would like to have a word with you about how old RNG loot systems are. The fisrt version of Neverwinter Nights that was on America On-Line used a RNG loot system , along with Ultima online , Everquest , WoW , AoC , and pretty much every MMO in the past 25 years.

As for who fist did it , that is going to be even more difficult to find out .The use of RNG to provide rewards in games is as old as the concept of games of chance . RNG is just an electronic version of games of chance.

I checked Urban Dictionary and earliest entry is from 2008 and even it is WoW, what is far from true RNG game. If it was Western term one could imagine there was way more stuff about it on Urban Dictionary. Obviously it comes from the East. My first RNG game was probably first Diablo back in the 90s.

RAGUNAnoOne

No I am pretty sure it wasn't the only option, the most annoying one yes. they could at least let you choose your weapon for trials.

stewart.leslie76b16_ESO

Sausage wrote: »

Mush55 wrote: »

Gets a bit of a joke after numerous Crypt of hearts runs and no helm to group up with a guild mate and he gets it on his first run.

Is that the way to keep me interested ??????????????????????????

Loot pool needs to be bigger, there needs to be more useful stuff, so even you dont find that Helmet, you find something useful anyway, to ease your frustration. CP-booster could be one, or if Purple and Legendary items had more value those too, why not some items what are very valuable in Gold.

DanielMaxwell wrote: »

Sausage wrote: »

sadownik wrote: »

Sausage wrote: »

RNG was chosen because it hadnt been done in last few year, especially Western Devs dont like to do it, at least to this length. I think it was right call. So that said RNG gives nice twist to ESO, especially towards Western Players.

I dont know if you are serious, hope not.

Anyways, Z. implemented one of the worst if not the worst rng system i have seen. Its rng on so many lvls...

-get the right type of item
-right lvl item
-right trait item
... it makes getting the things you need a pain in the arse. But with crafting system designed for ESO you shouldn't expect anything else.

Getting decent quality items for your lvl should not be a problem - the rng should start with the highest quality items - but since you can upgrade those Z. was left with only choice - put rng on all lvls so that players will repeat the content over and over again. Or quit.

No, RNG was debated like half year or 1 year prior PC-launch. I think its gives nice own recognition for ESO. Why you want blend with everybody else when you can do things differently? RNG comes from the East, like China, Korea etc. Its quite unknown in the West. ESO should embrace it, imho.

I do believe the old paper and pencil games (D&D comes to mind , there are many others) would like to have a word with you about how old RNG loot systems are. The fisrt version of Neverwinter Nights that was on America On-Line used a RNG loot system , along with Ultima online , Everquest , WoW , AoC , and pretty much every MMO in the past 25 years.

As for who fist did it , that is going to be even more difficult to find out .The use of RNG to provide rewards in games is as old as the concept of games of chance . RNG is just an electronic version of games of chance.

I checked Urban Dictionary and earliest entry is from 2008 and even it is WoW, what is far from true RNG game. If it was Western term one could imagine there was stuff about it on Urban Dictionary. Obviously it comes from the East. My first RNG game was probably first Diablo back in the 90s.

I think you might want to look into gaming history rather then the Urban Dictionary. P&P RPGs that had a random loot drops needed a way for GMs to say what loot the kill has dropped, the only way to do this was to roll a dice and consult a table. When RPGs made their transition over to the video game market, they need a system to represent the GM to create the loot drops, the RNG. Every game that has had random loot drop has got a RNG running in the background. RNGs for computer programming have been around far longer then video gaming though.

Of course if you really want to dig into it, you may want to look into the history of War Gaming created by Johann Christian Ludwig Hellwig, developed by the military to decide if going to battle was worth the price or not.

Hope499

RNG is one of the few ways to keep a game alive.....

If you had all the gear you wanted, would you even play?

I doubt many would.

"Oh look, everyone running around with the exact same armor, cuz its so easy to get"!

Sausage

stewart.leslie76b16_ESO wrote: »

Sausage wrote: »

Mush55 wrote: »

Gets a bit of a joke after numerous Crypt of hearts runs and no helm to group up with a guild mate and he gets it on his first run.

Is that the way to keep me interested ??????????????????????????

Loot pool needs to be bigger, there needs to be more useful stuff, so even you dont find that Helmet, you find something useful anyway, to ease your frustration. CP-booster could be one, or if Purple and Legendary items had more value those too, why not some items what are very valuable in Gold.

DanielMaxwell wrote: »

Sausage wrote: »

sadownik wrote: »

Sausage wrote: »

RNG was chosen because it hadnt been done in last few year, especially Western Devs dont like to do it, at least to this length. I think it was right call. So that said RNG gives nice twist to ESO, especially towards Western Players.

I dont know if you are serious, hope not.

Anyways, Z. implemented one of the worst if not the worst rng system i have seen. Its rng on so many lvls...

-get the right type of item
-right lvl item
-right trait item
... it makes getting the things you need a pain in the arse. But with crafting system designed for ESO you shouldn't expect anything else.

Getting decent quality items for your lvl should not be a problem - the rng should start with the highest quality items - but since you can upgrade those Z. was left with only choice - put rng on all lvls so that players will repeat the content over and over again. Or quit.

No, RNG was debated like half year or 1 year prior PC-launch. I think its gives nice own recognition for ESO. Why you want blend with everybody else when you can do things differently? RNG comes from the East, like China, Korea etc. Its quite unknown in the West. ESO should embrace it, imho.

I do believe the old paper and pencil games (D&D comes to mind , there are many others) would like to have a word with you about how old RNG loot systems are. The fisrt version of Neverwinter Nights that was on America On-Line used a RNG loot system , along with Ultima online , Everquest , WoW , AoC , and pretty much every MMO in the past 25 years.

As for who fist did it , that is going to be even more difficult to find out .The use of RNG to provide rewards in games is as old as the concept of games of chance . RNG is just an electronic version of games of chance.

I checked Urban Dictionary and earliest entry is from 2008 and even it is WoW, what is far from true RNG game. If it was Western term one could imagine there was stuff about it on Urban Dictionary. Obviously it comes from the East. My first RNG game was probably first Diablo back in the 90s.

I think you might want to look into gaming history rather then the Urban Dictionary. P&P RPGs that had a random loot drops needed a way for GMs to say what loot the kill has dropped, the only way to do this was to roll a dice and consult a table. When RPGs made their transition over to the video game market, they need a system to represent the GM to create the loot drops, the RNG. Every game that has had random loot drop has got a RNG running in the background. RNGs for computer programming have been around far longer then video gaming though.

Of course if you really want to dig into it, you may want to look into the history of War Gaming created by Johann Christian Ludwig Hellwig, developed by the military to decide if going to battle was worth the price or not.

Im old P&P player myself, I cant remember anything about RNG. We played Cyberpunk, Dragonlance, Ravenloft etc. Im sure RNG disappeared from the West, if it was here... for at least 10 year or so, its great time to bring it back. Zen should look into it, and own it.

I think RNG has potential, it just needs bigger loot pool, CP-boosters are one, but why not some Gems too, Green Gem 5k gold, Blue Gem 15k gold, Purple Gem 30k gold, Legendary Gem 60k gold, so even player doesnt get what he wants he finds something to compensate that time, not to mention all that frustration from not getting that helmet.

stewart.leslie76b16_ESO

Sausage wrote: »

Im old P&P player myself, I cant remember anything about RNG. We played Cyberpunk, Dragonlance, Ravenloft etc. Im sure RNG disappeared from the West, if it was here... for at least 10 year or so, its great time to bring it back. Zen should look into it, and own it.

I think RNG has potential, it just needs bigger loot pool, CP-boosters are one, but why not some Gems too, Green Gem 5k gold, Blue Gem 15k gold, Purple Gem 30k gold, Legendary Gem 60k gold, so even player doesnt get what he wants he finds something to compensate that time, not to mention all that frustration from not getting that helmet.

RNGs have never disappeared from the West, if anything If anything it's been encouraged.

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Treasure D&D loot table, using 2 rolls of a D100 to determine loot. If games you played didn't have a loot table then the games designers intended for you to use your own discretion.

And it's already in this game. Just look at the loot you are getting, sometimes you get 9 gold, sometimes you don't. Each time you open a draw, sometimes it's full of junk, and once in a blue moon it contains the Imperial Motif. As far as loot is concerned, it's dominated by the RNG.

Combat on the other hand has very little RNG involved. Which in my eyes is pretty depressing. You either critical or you don't, if you crit you cause this amount of damage, and if you don't you cause this damage, nothing in between. And unless your target dodge rolls, all attacks hit.

Put RNG into combat so that it decides if you hit or not and how much you hit by making combat feel more organic, bring back the Luck attribute to Elder Scrolls which effects all your RNG outcome, then we'll be getting somewhere.

PBpsy

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

RNG = grind until you get the right piece, luck is a big factor here.

Token = pure grind to get enough tokens to get the piece you want.

Im not sure why so many players want a Token system bc most people hated the trophy system that came with the IC DLC.

Pure RNG- consistent grind that can quickly appear to be just pointless. Far more people just say "snip it" and leave.I know many people that left because of it.
Token -Clear goal to work towards.
A token system with a chance of getting lucky would be the best.

Some games are actually based on RNG and they can be a lot of fun. For example Diablo,Path Of Exile. They are based on a RNG grind with systems to make it fun and not painfull.

Diablo 3 was a complete disaster at launch because of a dumb multi-layered rng loot system that frustrated most people. The game got much better when they introduced system that removed some of those rng layers.
Path Of Exile was on the other hand was just great game design from the start, because they combined rng,trading,grinding and crafting just the right way.

Malmai

Infinite12 wrote: »

Is there any other system they could have employed other than RNG? I don't know much about video game development so I'm asking seriously, what other systems could they have used instead of RNG?

Stack dat RNG by Zenimax!