Was RNG the only option? (Serious question)

Infinite12

Is there any other system they could have employed other than RNG? I don't know much about video game development so I'm asking seriously, what other systems could they have used instead of RNG?

Praeficere

RNG gives artificial life to repetitive content. Makes otherwise dead zones/dungeons seem alive to newer players.

Xendyn

Tokens would be nice.
I really hate this RNG on top of RNG system.

ralonasan

In most games RNG is just a single layer of the loot system. In this game every layer is RNG. And no, it wasn't the only option. They just chose to do it this way to artificially extend time played (imo).

It needs to be a random chance to get a certain piece of gear (with determined stats quality etc.). Not a random chance from a random mob in a random zone for a random style with a random trait with a random level with a random quality at. 01% chance to get the combination you desire.

Starshadw

Praeficere wrote: »

RNG gives artificial life to repetitive content. Makes otherwise dead zones/dungeons seem alive to newer players.

It is ONE way to encourage repeating content (and in quite a few opinions, not a very good way). There are other ways, including as some have already mentioned, a token system.

Infinite12

How would a token system work? Because as you guys stated RNG is BS.

ralonasan

Infinite12 wrote: »

How would a token system work? Because as you guys stated RNG is BS.

The boss would have a chance to drop a token that you can turn into a vendor for the item you need.

Infinite12

Wouldn't that still be RNG kinda though?

Draxys

Infinite12 wrote: »

Wouldn't that still be RNG kinda though?

Yea but at least then we could choose what we wanted when the rng favors us as opposed to hoping the rng favors us in like 5 different ways at once.

Gidorick

It was the easiest way.... it keeps some people playing for hours and hours and hours... and then there's people like me that say "**** that ****!" and do something else.

Gidorick

Infinite12 wrote: »

Wouldn't that still be RNG kinda though?

It totally would... so...

ralonasan wrote: »

Infinite12 wrote: »

How would a token system work? Because as you guys stated RNG is BS.

The boss would have a chance to always drop a token that you can turn into a vendor for the item you need.

Then have the tokens sellable for gold to other players. Boom... done.

ralonasan

Infinite12 wrote: »

Wouldn't that still be RNG kinda though?

Yes. But in my experience in MMOs. A dungeon boss will always drop quality loot for the group that kills him. There's a chance at pieces from a loot table as they call it. Even though you aren't gaurenteed the piece you need in this system you have a much higher chance at receiving what you need after running it multiple times. This system not only rewards the player with loot but also extends the lifetime of the content.


In eso. It's pure punishment that extends the lifetime of the content. There is no reward imo.

Korah_Eaglecry

Xendyn wrote: »

Tokens would be nice.
I really hate this RNG on top of RNG system.

Tokens bring its own issues. Eventually areas become dead once the majority of players can obtain the amount of Tokens they need for the gear theyre seeking.

MrGigglypants

Infinite12 wrote: »

Wouldn't that still be RNG kinda though?

No it wouldn't be a chance token drop it would just be a drop. Say you ran wgt each time you ran you got 1 token. It would cost say 25 tokens to buy a molag kena helm outright. And say 10 per set piece. In most token systems that's how it works atleast.

ralonasan

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

Xendyn wrote: »

Tokens would be nice.
I really hate this RNG on top of RNG system.

Tokens bring its own issues. Eventually areas become dead once the majority of players can obtain the amount of Tokens they need for the gear theyre seeking.

That doesn't happen because of tokens. That happens because content gets old. It's inevitable regardless of the loot system.

Anzriel

Xendyn wrote: »

Tokens would be nice.
I really hate this RNG on top of RNG system.

Yeah, personally I prefer the idea of a token system. As long as the number of tokens isn't ridiculously high it's a way to ensure after a decent number of runs you finally get the gear you want. Relying completely on RNG is just painful at times since you have to get the item, and get it in the trait you want. >< Double rng FTL. Dx

PBpsy

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

Xendyn wrote: »

Tokens would be nice.
I really hate this RNG on top of RNG system.

Tokens bring its own issues. Eventually areas become dead once the majority of players can obtain the amount of Tokens they need for the gear theyre seeking.

This happens with the current system also. Once you get what you want if you actually decide to partake in the rng grind you are out. You would have to be very very very convincing to make me go do Darkshade run if it's not a gold pledge. Once I get a Divines Nerien'eth shoulder piece It will be impossible to get me to do a Darkshade run.

DanielMaxwell

since they made the decision to go B2P and to use a crown store , RNG is the only option they can use .

Token systems do not steer players to the crown store in a suitable and subtitle manner . A token system (in a B2P/F2P game) would have to sell tokens in the store while having the number of tokens set at absurdly high numbers to obtain items with tokens .

NewBlacksmurf

I'm definately not in favor of any token system.
RNG is fine, the larger issue is that ppl want things fast and don't for whatever reason enjoy the hunt which makes the reward much
More worthwhile.

Infinite12

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

I'm definately not in favor of any token system.
RNG is fine, the larger issue is that ppl want things fast and don't for whatever reason enjoy the hunt which makes the reward much
More worthwhile.

To some extent I agree but at the same time there are people running dungeons almost 100 times and not seeing a monster helmet. The RNG is absurd sometimes. And to be clear, I wasn't complaining about the RNG, I was just curious what other systems there are that they could have used instead of RNG.

NewBlacksmurf

Infinite12 wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

I'm definately not in favor of any token system.
RNG is fine, the larger issue is that ppl want things fast and don't for whatever reason enjoy the hunt which makes the reward much
More worthwhile.

To some extent I agree but at the same time there are people running dungeons almost 100 times and not seeing a monster helmet. The RNG is absurd sometimes. And to be clear, I wasn't complaining about the RNG, I was just curious what other systems there are that they could have used instead of RNG.

It's just the way it goes. I think if a lot of items were not BoP it changes the way we look at RNG but otherwise it gives reason to redo content. Imagine if it only took 5-10 runs. Then ppl complain about not being able to find ppl to do content.

So the BoP and RNG make sense

MrDerrikk

I think a token system is good, but only if they're BoP. I don't want to show off my Kena and get told I just bought the mats; it should be an achievement.

Layenem

RNG is far from the only option! I've got a team on a game I'm working on that has figured out how to get rid of half of the RNG by pushing player's skill and awareness during a fight to a new level. There are plenty of methods if developers would start hiring gamers (you know... the highly creative ones who have seen every corner and every spell) to help concept design instead of hiring developers to concept design.

That said I don't foresee a system without a little RNG. Just not as much as is being used in ESO. RNG is the lazy way out. It's one of those ways you can clearly tell when a developer has no clue what they are doing.

Eleusian

I see the real problem is with the eso plus/ sub system . They want people to sub indefinitely for the grind . If it was buy and done they would make the rewards to buy a DLC better and not really care about extended play other than coming back for next DLC . We can't see their #s so it's hard to speculate. It's all Bussiness driven at the end of the day that can be assured

pronkg

Layenem wrote: »

RNG is far from the only option! I've got a team on a game I'm working on that has figured out how to get rid of half of the RNG by pushing player's skill and awareness during a fight to a new level. There are plenty of methods if developers would start hiring gamers (you know... the highly creative ones who have seen every corner and every spell) to help concept design instead of hiring developers to concept design.

That said I don't foresee a system without a little RNG. Just not as much as is being used in ESO. RNG is the lazy way out. It's one of those ways you can clearly tell when a developer has no clue what they are doing.

You forget the fact they are aiming for money in the first place. RNG is not laziness, it's cheap en rewarding for ZoS.

The quicker people gain what they want,
The sooner the game dies out.

Unless people are all pvp oriented, which they are not.

RNG is the cheapest way to keep the game running

Draxys

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

I'm definately not in favor of any token system.
RNG is fine, the larger issue is that ppl want things fast and don't for whatever reason enjoy the hunt which makes the reward much
More worthwhile.

Lol. Slaving through 60 runs of vet coa for a single helm, no matter wtf it is, is wanting something too fast? No one is saying they want to get exactly what they want the first time the waltz into content and never touch it again. But rng is in no way making eso's content "more worthwhile". It's making it more of a painful chore.

NewBlacksmurf

Draxys wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

I'm definately not in favor of any token system.
RNG is fine, the larger issue is that ppl want things fast and don't for whatever reason enjoy the hunt which makes the reward much
More worthwhile.

Lol. Slaving through 60 runs of vet coa for a single helm, no matter wtf it is, is wanting something too fast? No one is saying they want to get exactly what they want the first time the waltz into content and never touch it again. But rng is in no way making eso's content "more worthwhile". It's making it more of a painful chore.

Uhm that's the whole point. I'm not sure what other games you've played but for a reward, if it's easily attainable, for me, it's not a real reward. I like that people are doing many runs but what's interesting in that people are complaining about a specific item and how the game drops those items but ignoring how many other good items are being dropped.

The idea of this system is to generate different possibilities that actually have lower percentages to drop. The good about this is that one person wants X while another wants Y and Z drops but if offers situations where X drops with diff traits and enchants which may cause someone to roll an alt to consider playing differently now that they see X, Y or Z more often but aren't getting what they want.

The other and more important concept is that the longer it takes to get a specific drop, the larger the pool of participants grows so that once someone gets an item, they are willing to help another due to they challenge they experienced. Also, for those who haven't got their reward, they keep going after it and will have many others to join them.

This is a good thing.
If everyone ran and the drops were a lot less random as well as having a token system, content gets dull or you end up with a WoW concept where there is 2-3 versions of the same items with slightly better stats obtained by tiring difficulty of the same encounter which gets boring. I personally prefer what exists here and understand why others do not but its my preference and opinion that this system causes a better situation and maintains a high value for specific rewards.

shadowwraith666

Oblivion and Skyrim used RNG tied with character level for loot generation

stewart.leslie76b16_ESO

Layenem wrote: »

RNG is far from the only option! I've got a team on a game I'm working on that has figured out how to get rid of half of the RNG by pushing player's skill and awareness during a fight to a new level. There are plenty of methods if developers would start hiring gamers (you know... the highly creative ones who have seen every corner and every spell) to help concept design instead of hiring developers to concept design.

That said I don't foresee a system without a little RNG. Just not as much as is being used in ESO. RNG is the lazy way out. It's one of those ways you can clearly tell when a developer has no clue what they are doing.

If I was a dev for this game, I'd be extremely insulted about this comment. Most workers in this sector tend to have a history of gaming behind them for them to even consider doing it as a career. And even when they get through the door, it's their passion for gaming that keeps them in. Towards the end of a development there's this period called Crunch Time, this is where everything has to wrapped up ready for distribution. You could be working up to 20 hour shifts for 2 weeks straight. And the pay isn't that great for what you have to do.

There's plenty of jobs going at Zennimax and it's subsidiary companies if you fancy a shot at it. If you go for it I wish you all the luck in the world. Psst, there's a thing going around at the moment where employers like their employees to work from home, you'd only have to go to the office for really big meetings. Something to do with spending time with the family and so on, but the reality is that they can ignore you by email instead of ignoring you to your face.

pronkg

Jup!

And remember, the devs are getting paid to do what they're told and maybe advise, but they are most likely not the ones that call the shots.

It's easy for us to say, do this do that and it's better, but the majority of us just don't know anything about what a token system or whatever will do to a game in long term perspective.

there maybe some people here that are developers, but they probably don't work for a multimillion dollar company.

What I do know from my experience with working with bigger companies in the creative industry in comparison to smaller companies is that you have less freedom to do as you wish. And most choices are made based on marketing/financial targets.

For them it's trying to find that very very thin line between making profit and keeping their customers happy. A small and easy change can have huge consequences.

hayaschwarz

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Draxys wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

I'm definately not in favor of any token system.
RNG is fine, the larger issue is that ppl want things fast and don't for whatever reason enjoy the hunt which makes the reward much
More worthwhile.

Lol. Slaving through 60 runs of vet coa for a single helm, no matter wtf it is, is wanting something too fast? No one is saying they want to get exactly what they want the first time the waltz into content and never touch it again. But rng is in no way making eso's content "more worthwhile". It's making it more of a painful chore.

Uhm that's the whole point. I'm not sure what other games you've played but for a reward, if it's easily attainable, for me, it's not a real reward. I like that people are doing many runs but what's interesting in that people are complaining about a specific item and how the game drops those items but ignoring how many other good items are being dropped.

The idea of this system is to generate different possibilities that actually have lower percentages to drop. The good about this is that one person wants X while another wants Y and Z drops but if offers situations where X drops with diff traits and enchants which may cause someone to roll an alt to consider playing differently now that they see X, Y or Z more often but aren't getting what they want.

The other and more important concept is that the longer it takes to get a specific drop, the larger the pool of participants grows so that once someone gets an item, they are willing to help another due to they challenge they experienced. Also, for those who haven't got their reward, they keep going after it and will have many others to join them.

This is a good thing.
If everyone ran and the drops were a lot less random as well as having a token system, content gets dull or you end up with a WoW concept where there is 2-3 versions of the same items with slightly better stats obtained by tiring difficulty of the same encounter which gets boring. I personally prefer what exists here and understand why others do not but its my preference and opinion that this system causes a better situation and maintains a high value for specific rewards.

Can you please explain how this is a good Thing:
- For WGT there is only one Set worth using, which is Spell Power Cure, how getting other Sets will be a reward for the Player?
- To obtain Spell Power Cure set for my Healer, I ran the VR WGT about 300 times, until I got the full set with acceptable traits, is farming the hell out of one dungeon until you are sick of it a good Thing?
- Same Players who were always in my Group farming the hell out of the WGT still don't have the set complete, must we farm the dungeon even more to get what we want/Need?
- If it is worth mentioning, with all the runs I did in VR WGT, I still don’t have a full set of overwhelming!

The Spell Power Cure set isn't the only Set in the history of ESO, following are more examples:
- Scathing Mage
- Vicious Ophidian till the end of 1.5
- Infallible Aether till the end of 1.5
- Aether set from the start of the game till the end of 1.5
- The Lich Set
- All Monster Helmets and shoulders (a friend of mine still doesn't have Valkyn Helmet!)

I respect your opinion, that you would like difficulty in the game to obtain your gear. But I don’t want to play one dungeons hundreds of times, until I get what I want, and obviously the majority of the community. And always on top of that as in WGT as an example, you have 6 different sets, with each 7 pieces, and with 6 different traits (only 2 usable, arguably 4) and all of that mainly on 4 bosses, so basically you have 1 of 1008 if each kill have 100% drop chance, but you still on top of that have a chance on drop of a set item on each boss!

Their way of fixing that was by introducing a new System, where you can buy anything with Gold or AP. Which is in my opinion good, but not in exchange for Gold (as you can buy gold “illegally” from websites, or you are forced to farm gold and AP rather than playing the game). If it was some sort of token system (like TVS) while doing normal activities, and then you can buy gear from Vendors with those tokens it will make the game more rewarding, and give a fair chance to obtain the gear you want.