Damage per Second

hrothbern

Destruent wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

hrothbern wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

oibam wrote: »

40k: Molag Kena Overload Sorc with Spell Power Cure Buff

That's not SUSTAINABLE. It's burst.

we really need dummies to train and test and measure DPS

All this high numbers !@#$%^& only make feel the beginning players pretty stupid

is no good for our game

Exactly. But you can't prevent people from bragging.

Newbies/Lowbies/Casual should relax. Whether DPS is enough or not, or excellent in any particular situation is something you feel quite instantly while playing.
Training dummies would be nice to test builds and practice rotations, though.

i would test things all the time....would be so nice

Would also be nice if there were training dummies that would do damage, in order to train self heals in your rotations

that could be standard NPC monsters, you can choose from, but with unendless health

pronkg

16/18k is the answer. That's what most people get on high level builds and that's what I get on average sometimes less, sometimes more

On solo buffs and whilst using food.

You really don't need more than that for any content in the game.

Dexter411

@Cuyler It is not really about dps on the exact boss or specific class which will be different, depends on many things.
I ask about "average" dps, the "ok" that you, as dps, should get. And people answered already but it is good to see more and more people being in 15k-20k tier.
Like once great man in ancient times said:
"Bad dps is dead dps"

Lexxypwns

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

oibam wrote: »

40k: Molag Kena Overload Sorc with Spell Power Cure Buff

That's not SUSTAINABLE. It's burst.

It is sustainable, simply because when you have dps pulling 35k+ boss fights last MUCH shorter amount of time, to me, if you can pull 40k dps for a whole boss fight that's the definition of sustain...

anitajoneb17_ESO

LOL, no, "sustained" doesn't mean "long enough for any given fight". "Sustained" means "without draining resources", or "while regenerating resources". In other words, "sustained DPS" is the DPS that you could, in theory, pull "infinitely"without running out of resources.
Any DPS involving sorc overload is, per definition, burst DPS and not sustained, because the ulti points you need will not regenerate as quickly as they're being used up. And you must arrive with full 1000 ulti points, which means that you have been sacrificing DPS on earlier phases of the dungeon in order to stack up those ulti points.
I think some sorc manage to run a rotation that includes overload, and manage to restore ulti points at the same rate as they're consumed, but these rotations, while very efficient, will not pull 40K+.

Cuyler

Dexter411 wrote: »

@Cuyler It is not really about dps on the exact boss or specific class which will be different, depends on many things.
I ask about "average" dps, the "ok" that you, as dps, should get. And people answered already but it is good to see more and more people being in 15k-20k tier.
Like once great man in ancient times said:
"Bad dps is dead dps"

Like a wise man once said..."you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink". These answers are all barely useful and simply serve to give players an inferiority or superiority complex.

hrothbern wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

oibam wrote: »

40k: Molag Kena Overload Sorc with Spell Power Cure Buff

That's not SUSTAINABLE. It's burst.

we really need dummies to train and test and measure DPS
All this high numbers !@#$%^& only make feel the beginning players pretty stupid
is no good for our game
EDIT
and if you need all the time mobility and kiting, because you are to squishy to eat some damage, your DPS goes down as well

THis^. dps testing must be standardized and benchmarked or it simply peoples opinions. I mean is 15k the average for soloing a delve boss? or soloing vMA? there's a difference and you should really specify what type of encounter your interested in benchmarking your "average" dps against. Currently this thread is simply sampling several small demographics that have no correlation to each other.

Destruent

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

LOL, no, "sustained" doesn't mean "long enough for any given fight". "Sustained" means "without draining resources", or "while regenerating resources". In other words, "sustained DPS" is the DPS that you could, in theory, pull "infinitely"without running out of resources.
Any DPS involving sorc overload is, per definition, burst DPS and not sustained, because the ulti points you need will not regenerate as quickly as they're being used up. And you must arrive with full 1000 ulti points, which means that you have been sacrificing DPS on earlier phases of the dungeon in order to stack up those ulti points.
I think some sorc manage to run a rotation that includes overload, and manage to restore ulti points at the same rate as they're consumed, but these rotations, while very efficient, will not pull 40K+.

as a magicka Dk you can sustain around 30k DPS....pots/elemental drain and ultimates will keep your resources up, even with full spelldmg enchants and kena up...so no, this is no burst DPS....
but, why do you want to dps infinitely...there is no encounter where you need to do something like this.

hrothbern

Destruent wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

LOL, no, "sustained" doesn't mean "long enough for any given fight". "Sustained" means "without draining resources", or "while regenerating resources". In other words, "sustained DPS" is the DPS that you could, in theory, pull "infinitely"without running out of resources.
Any DPS involving sorc overload is, per definition, burst DPS and not sustained, because the ulti points you need will not regenerate as quickly as they're being used up. And you must arrive with full 1000 ulti points, which means that you have been sacrificing DPS on earlier phases of the dungeon in order to stack up those ulti points.
I think some sorc manage to run a rotation that includes overload, and manage to restore ulti points at the same rate as they're consumed, but these rotations, while very efficient, will not pull 40K+.

as a magicka Dk you can sustain around 30k DPS....pots/elemental drain and ultimates will keep your resources up, even with full spelldmg enchants and kena up...so no, this is no burst DPS....
but, why do you want to dps infinitely...there is no encounter where you need to do something like this.

Usual fights are shorter

but a steady state DPS against a dummy is an objective benchmark, that people can compare, and much more important share, to improve their rotations and build.

EDIT

In reality you lose some because you fire not 100% of the time, you gain some more from "shorter" fights, ultimate, potion etc.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Destruent wrote: »

as a magicka Dk you can sustain around 30k DPS....pots/elemental drain and ultimates will keep your resources up, even with full spelldmg enchants and kena up...so no, this is no burst DPS....
but, why do you want to dps infinitely...there is no encounter where you need to do something like this.

The point is just to define "sustain" vs. "burst", because, as @Cuyler points out, you cannot compare apples and oranges and lead people to false conception of what "good DPS" is. Just like you can't compare 9'58'' for running 100m (that's Usain Bolt's current WR) directly with 17'48'' per 100 m for an entire marathon (that's Dennis Kimmeto current WR : 2h2min57s).

Kimmeto runs nearly twice as "slow" as Bolt... but they're both upper limits and outstanding performances. And can you imagine Bolt telling Kimmeto "hey noob ! you have no clue ! I run 9'58" !!!".... which is pretty much what everyone is doing here on these forums when it comes to DPS numbers.

That's why, in my answer to OP, I based myself on what's required by the instances and their mechanics, rather than on what's the maximum possible or even the average possible.

And I think sustained DPS is extremely useful especially in a casual guild where you sometimes have to carry people a bit and compensate for weaker DPS.

Destruent

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

as a magicka Dk you can sustain around 30k DPS....pots/elemental drain and ultimates will keep your resources up, even with full spelldmg enchants and kena up...so no, this is no burst DPS....
but, why do you want to dps infinitely...there is no encounter where you need to do something like this.

The point is just to define "sustain" vs. "burst", because, as @Cuyler points out, you cannot compare apples and oranges and lead people to false conception of what "good DPS" is. Just like you can't compare 9'58'' for running 100m (that's Usain Bolt's current WR) directly with 17'48'' per 100 m for an entire marathon (that's Dennis Kimmeto current WR : 2h2min57s).

Kimmeto runs nearly twice as "slow" as Bolt... but they're both upper limits and outstanding performances. And can you imagine Bolt telling Kimmeto "hey noob ! you have no clue ! I run 9'58" !!!".... which is pretty much what everyone is doing here on these forums when it comes to DPS numbers.

That's why, in my answer to OP, I based myself on what's required by the instances and their mechanics, rather than on what's the maximum possible or even the average possible.

And I think sustained DPS is extremely useful especially in a casual guild where you sometimes have to carry people a bit and compensate for weaker DPS.

as i said...you won't get oom as magicka DK with pots/elemental drain and ultimates...so this is in your definition of sustain ^^.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Destruent wrote: »

as i said...you won't get oom as magicka DK with pots/elemental drain and ultimates...so this is in your definition of sustain ^^.

I don't know much about magicka DKs, I was referring to a magicka sorc DPS claiming 40K sustained here in this thread and I *know* that's not possible.
I don't know about 30K for a magicka DK, but how is it relevant to this thread ? There are plenty of threads where people can show off their "fantastic DPS" ;-)

Dexter411

Destruent wrote: »

as a magicka Dk you can sustain around 30k DPS....pots/elemental drain and ultimates will keep your resources up, even with full spelldmg enchants and kena up...so no, this is no burst DPS....
but, why do you want to dps infinitely...there is no encounter where you need to do something like this.

How do you get 30k dps on magicka DK? O.O I have heard about ~23k flame lash but i was never able to achievie that

@Cuyler For example Croc(first boss) in Wayrest Sewers(second person, tank, takes aggro, of course), The Gargoyle boss in Vet Spindle. Even Giants in Orsinium. Of course you will get different numbers on different enemies with different group/people.
I am gonna make this really simple: Enemy with enough Hp that you need to reapply your dots, buffs without worrying about keeping yourself alive.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Dexter411 wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

as a magicka Dk you can sustain around 30k DPS....pots/elemental drain and ultimates will keep your resources up, even with full spelldmg enchants and kena up...so no, this is no burst DPS....
but, why do you want to dps infinitely...there is no encounter where you need to do something like this.

How do you get 30k dps on magicka DK? O.O I have heard about ~23k flame lash but i was never able to achievie that

@Cuyler For example Croc(first boss) in Wayrest Sewers(second person, tank, takes aggro, of course), The Gargoyle boss in Vet Spindle. Even Giants in Orsinium. Of course you will get different numbers on different enemies with different group/people.
I am gonna make this really simple: Enemy with enough Hp that you need to reapply your dots, buffs without worrying about keeping yourself alive.

Don't get impressed by "30K on magicka DK". Do your own progression, find your own limit and goals ;-)

At VR16 (which is where the 15K DPS "standard" applies) neither the gargoyle in Spindleclutch, nor the giants in Orsinium nor the liche in Wayrest sewers will last long enough to make a reliable DPS meter. And different mobs will show different results due to different resistances (for instances sorcs get amazing dps on vWGT daedroths, simply because they're sensitive to lightning...)

That's why we need a dummy. There's no mob to train with currently. The best benchmark "mobs" are probably still Valariel, Mantikora, serpent, mage. But that's in 12 man trials, no so easy to go there with a consistently good group. Wrothgar group bosses are very tough but you can't fight them quietly while standing. And there are too many ppl around interfering.

Molag Kena is probably the best option as dummy. Loads of health points, and if you do it normal mode, not too many thunder attacks to worry about, and with a good tank, she might keep more or less still in the middle. But there will still be those pesky atronachs.

Hear us ZOS ? We need DUMMIES !!! PLIZZZZZZ ;-)

Cuyler

Dexter411 wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

as a magicka Dk you can sustain around 30k DPS....pots/elemental drain and ultimates will keep your resources up, even with full spelldmg enchants and kena up...so no, this is no burst DPS....
but, why do you want to dps infinitely...there is no encounter where you need to do something like this.

How do you get 30k dps on magicka DK? O.O I have heard about ~23k flame lash but i was never able to achievie that

@Cuyler For example Croc(first boss) in Wayrest Sewers(second person, tank, takes aggro, of course), The Gargoyle boss in Vet Spindle. Even Giants in Orsinium. Of course you will get different numbers on different enemies with different group/people.
I am gonna make this really simple: Enemy with enough Hp that you need to reapply your dots, buffs without worrying about keeping yourself alive.

Okay So yeah most of those types of encounters are "burst" fights, that is, they last <50s. The general (pug) average on them is probably higher @ ~20k w/ ulti or even slightly higher but def less than 25k. 15k would be underachieving on a boss such as this at v16.

The max can be as high 40k (maybe higher?). personally my last parse on bloodspawn was ~36k w/ulti on my mag DK while in a regular group (no buffs except ele drain). THIS is the build. I use a modified version of it, I don't have a maelstrom staff.

For a better "average" you want to look at fights >50sec, which as @anitajoneb17_ESO points out is really only the Manticora, the Mage and the Serpent (all >120s) which give time long enough for any ultimate burst damage to taper off which can skew "sustained" dps values significantly. In these cases 15k is probably more a better (pug) average if not lower. I help out with a lot of SO (pug) runs and can say with certainty that the average could be as low as 10k but personally I think that 15k is a legitimate number to pull on the Manticora in SO for anyone just getting into it and 10k is underachieving.

Again i'm referring to what would be a sort of pug or casual averages and would recommend trying to achieve numbers much higher they're certainly possible even with old v14 sets.

tangy.citrus

15k is average across all classes

All classes can burst up to 40k-45k in a 20 second fight against say a crematorial guard in vwgt.
30k+ is great for minute long fights.
The highest Ive seen is 34k NA for a minute long fight, and I think EU has 35/36k in a minute long fight.

20k is easy to get, so you should be around there most of the time even if the group is bad. 30k+ requires a good group throwing down buffs.

-On the note of sustain. Any class has the sustain. DK can self sustain by running their own ele D and still get 30k. Sorcs can do the same. Most boss fights are only 1 minute now, only serpent is longer (obvious reasons). The sustained dps you should get on serpent is around 20-25k. If you're in that range, you're doing very well.

All classes have their own sustain dude, believe it or not but you can run kena on a sorc and still keep your magicka up and your dps up. Templars tho, have the worst sustain. They cant run kena, but they have other ways of keeping up their resources and they can still pull similar numbers when doing it right.

anitajoneb17_ESO

@tangy.citrus :

OP was asking for an "OK DPS". Not what the current olympic scores are.
What you're spreading are numbers that only 0.5% top players can achieve.
And you pretend it's easy.

I'd advise everyone to not believe anything in your message. It's not a benchmark for "everyone". All you'll achieve (besides feeding your own ego) is disgust casuals and make them leave the game. Is that what you want ?

And don't forget that such numbers are not needed at all in the game.

tangy.citrus

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

@tangy.citrus :

OP was asking for an "OK DPS". Not what the current olympic scores are.
What you're spreading are numbers that only 0.5% top players can achieve.
And you pretend it's easy.

I'd advise everyone to not believe anything in your message. It's not a benchmark for "everyone". All you'll achieve (besides feeding your own ego) is disgust casuals and make them leave the game. Is that what you want ?

And don't forget that such numbers are not needed at all in the game.

Lol, i started with the average and went from there. 15k is what most people pull end game, or at least what they should be able to pull. If you give any effort in the game at all, you can achieve 20k easy on most things. The 'olympic scores' are there to see how high he can climb. Where the roof is at bascially. If you tell someone the average is 12k dps, but good dpsers get 20k or something, then he will think 20k is near the limit and theres almsot nothing more to achieve.

anitajoneb17_ESO

tangy.citrus wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

@tangy.citrus :

OP was asking for an "OK DPS". Not what the current olympic scores are.
What you're spreading are numbers that only 0.5% top players can achieve.
And you pretend it's easy.

I'd advise everyone to not believe anything in your message. It's not a benchmark for "everyone". All you'll achieve (besides feeding your own ego) is disgust casuals and make them leave the game. Is that what you want ?

And don't forget that such numbers are not needed at all in the game.

Lol, i started with the average and went from there. 15k is what most people pull end game, or at least what they should be able to pull. If you give any effort in the game at all, you can achieve 20k easy on most things. The 'olympic scores' are there to see how high he can climb. Where the roof is at bascially. If you tell someone the average is 12k dps, but good dpsers get 20k or something, then he will think 20k is near the limit and theres almsot nothing more to achieve.

I think you're trolling. But let's simply agree to disagree. People who read this thread will make up their own mind.

hrothbern

Would it be fair to say that

if you pull around 30k in a long burst in a Group, you have around 20k in 1 vs 1 in a real steady state of 5 minutes ?

around a factor 1.5 between the two kinds of DPS

Cuyler

hrothbern wrote: »

Would it be fair to say that

if you pull around 30k in a long burst in a Group, you have around 20k in 1 vs 1 in a real steady state of 5 minutes ?

around a factor 1.5 between the two kinds of DPS

Meh, not really. That was initial point, there really is no direct correlation. the #dps must be referenced to a specific benchmark (e.g. Aoe, single target, resistance, time)

hrothbern

Cuyler wrote: »

hrothbern wrote: »

Would it be fair to say that

if you pull around 30k in a long burst in a Group, you have around 20k in 1 vs 1 in a real steady state of 5 minutes ?

around a factor 1.5 between the two kinds of DPS

Meh, not really. That was initial point, there really is no direct correlation. the #dps must be referenced to a specific benchmark (e.g. Aoe, single target, resistance, time)

In a perfect world.... you can come to a precise ratio for a defined opponent with known resistance
and then we are back at the training dummy.
But at this moment there is no training dummy.

So we have only best guesses what the average ratio is.
And ofc it is 1 vs 1, or many vs 1. Ofc AOE must be excluded.
And steady state means that you have at the end of a (shorter) fight still almost full stats (all three)
(if there are no dummies to measure exactly)

anitajoneb17_ESO

hrothbern wrote: »

Would it be fair to say that

if you pull around 30k in a long burst in a Group, you have around 20k in 1 vs 1 in a real steady state of 5 minutes ?

around a factor 1.5 between the two kinds of DPS

I don't think so. It's like trying to calculate what Usain Bolt would achieve in a marathon and what Dennis Kimmeto would achieve in a 100m run.
Burst and sustain (min/maxed) require different skills, rotations, gear. In short : different builds.

tangy.citrus

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

hrothbern wrote: »

Would it be fair to say that

if you pull around 30k in a long burst in a Group, you have around 20k in 1 vs 1 in a real steady state of 5 minutes ?

around a factor 1.5 between the two kinds of DPS

I don't think so. It's like trying to calculate what Usain Bolt would achieve in a marathon and what Dennis Kimmeto would achieve in a 100m run.
Burst and sustain (min/maxed) require different skills, rotations, gear. In short : different builds.

not really. Its all the same. Every fight is pretty much just bursting.

hrothbern

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

hrothbern wrote: »

Would it be fair to say that

if you pull around 30k in a long burst in a Group, you have around 20k in 1 vs 1 in a real steady state of 5 minutes ?

around a factor 1.5 between the two kinds of DPS

I don't think so. It's like trying to calculate what Usain Bolt would achieve in a marathon and what Dennis Kimmeto would achieve in a 100m run.
Burst and sustain (min/maxed) require different skills, rotations, gear. In short : different builds.

I agree (and I know ofc) that if you specialise a build fully optimised for a stealth attack and burst, that ratio is clearly higher.
Combined with CC's very usefull for PVP and IC ganking.

But that is not the DPS build, that is optimal to melt down a boss.
Optimal to be one of the DPS builds in a Group doing a pledge, or a world boss.

And what I understand from the OP, page #1, is that this thread is about the DPS that can be sustained, no bursts.

anitajoneb17_ESO

tangy.citrus wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

hrothbern wrote: »

Would it be fair to say that

if you pull around 30k in a long burst in a Group, you have around 20k in 1 vs 1 in a real steady state of 5 minutes ?

around a factor 1.5 between the two kinds of DPS

I don't think so. It's like trying to calculate what Usain Bolt would achieve in a marathon and what Dennis Kimmeto would achieve in a 100m run.
Burst and sustain (min/maxed) require different skills, rotations, gear. In short : different builds.

not really. Its all the same. Every fight is pretty much just bursting.

You're really totally wrong.
You think everything is just bursting (in which case, why even talk about sustain ?) because you're probably in an elitist guild where everybody pulls 25K+ DPS and don't know any other aspects of the game nor any other ways of fighting in PvE.

Zinaroth

Totomushen wrote: »

The important thing is sustained damage. No matter of burst things or short combats.

So,

15k+ : Nice
20k+ : Good player combined with Good build.
25k+ : You are a hero.
30k+ : Fire DK

Disagree. If you end boss fights with high rescources then you're too invested into sustain and should focus more on improving your damage output.

pod88kk

I play console and don't know how to calculate dps, any suggestions?

tangy.citrus

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

tangy.citrus wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

hrothbern wrote: »

Would it be fair to say that

if you pull around 30k in a long burst in a Group, you have around 20k in 1 vs 1 in a real steady state of 5 minutes ?

around a factor 1.5 between the two kinds of DPS

I don't think so. It's like trying to calculate what Usain Bolt would achieve in a marathon and what Dennis Kimmeto would achieve in a 100m run.
Burst and sustain (min/maxed) require different skills, rotations, gear. In short : different builds.

not really. Its all the same. Every fight is pretty much just bursting.

You're really totally wrong.
You think everything is just bursting (in which case, why even talk about sustain ?) because you're probably in an elitist guild where everybody pulls 25K+ DPS and don't know any other aspects of the game nor any other ways of fighting in PvE.

Pl0x tell me how to dps hurder

timmayyyboy

Does anybody know of a good way to test what you dps is on console accurately?

Dexter411

timmayyyboy wrote: »

Does anybody know of a good way to test what you dps is on console accurately?

1.Hire tank
2. Go to wayrest sewers(you can skip trash mobs on the way). you are looking for big Crocodile(first boss). Remeber his HP
3. Right when fight starts start timer of some sort(phone,watch whatever)
4. Stop timer when croc is dead
5. Do the math. Boss hp / how long you fought boss = dps