Can we talk about Champion Point stats, star placement, and passives?

KenaPKK

Red CP have a % magic damage mitigation star, but not one for physical damage. Also, magicka builds have to commit waaaay more CP to match stamina in combat effectiveness because of how the offensive stars are spread out for magicka and because of Hardy being a thing. At the current CP cap, which I have almost reached (yay!), stamina outclasses magicka entirely. Why?

There are also better passives for stamina than there are for magicka.

Every day as I play my magicka character...I wonder why I am so gimped..... I feel noticeably weaker as a magicka nightblade than I do as a stamina Breton in terms of both damage and survivability.

Also, I hate how race pigeonholes you into either magicka or stamina. But that is a different topic entirely.

DannyLV702

CPs are pretty screwed up from what I've seen

Scamandros

I think magicka skills scale better with higher pools/spell dmg then most stamina ones do, but there are certainly more ways to mitigate magic damage. I think its fairly balanced with raw dmg of stam vs the utilities of magicka, although the high end burst builds of both could probably be tuned down a notch

Soulac

Ultimates except take flight are based on magic damage and scale with the magic damage increasing champion passive.
There is no physical damage ultimate I could use, so I will always be less effective than a Magicka build based on ultimate usage.

KenaPKK

Scamandros wrote: »

I think magicka skills scale better with higher pools/spell dmg then most stamina ones do, but there are certainly more ways to mitigate magic damage. I think its fairly balanced with raw dmg of stam vs the utilities of magicka, although the high end burst builds of both could probably be tuned down a notch

I am not too sure about this reasoning, though. Drink-running stamina builds get to use magicka-based utility spells pretty frequently since their damage abilities all come from their stam pools.

Derra

Soulac wrote: »

Ultimates except take flight are based on magic damage and scale with the magic damage increasing champion passive.
There is no physical damage ultimate I could use, so I will always be less effective than a Magicka build based on ultimate usage.

And what builds BASED on ultimate usage are there for nightblades?

You´re arguing from a point where everything at your disposal outclasses magica dmg apart from your ultimate (I would suggest you don´t start about batswarm - it´s not going to help your point).

Sure you can have your physical dmg ultimates - if they add physical dmg mitigation and merge magic dmg into elemental expert passive. I´m pretty confident you would not like the results in regard to your overall performance.

KenaPKK

A better way to think about all ults except Take Flight dealing magic damage is "I have basic abilities that deal physical damage and are not mitigated by Hardy but receive the same percentage amplification via Mighty, so I will always be more effective than an all-magicka damage build."

Then there are stam DKs with their burst...but that is another issue entirely.

If they let ults used by stamina builds deal physical damage and added a 25% physical damage mitigation star, you'd be performing worse than the current situation. Hardy is bad design.

Minno

KenaPKK wrote: »

A better way to think about all ults except Take Flight dealing magic damage is "I have basic abilities that deal physical damage and are not mitigated by Hardy but receive the same percentage amplification via Mighty, so I will always be more effective than an all-magicka damage build."

Then there are stam DKs with their burst...but that is another issue entirely.

If they let ults used by stamina builds deal physical damage and added a 25% physical damage mitigation star, you'd be performing worse than the current situation. Hardy is bad design.

Not to mention, stamplars have to pay attention to their armor pen in order to outperform magicka templars in pve. In pvp, the extra CP mitigation alone accounts for why stam builds are primary toons.

Ishammael

KenaPKK wrote: »

A better way to think about all ults except Take Flight dealing magic damage is "I have basic abilities that deal physical damage and are not mitigated by Hardy but receive the same percentage amplification via Mighty, so I will always be more effective than an all-magicka damage build."

Then there are stam DKs with their burst...but that is another issue entirely.

If they let ults used by stamina builds deal physical damage and added a 25% physical damage mitigation star, you'd be performing worse than the current situation. Hardy is bad design.

I don't agree with "Hardy is bad design." In fact, I think its the only thing keeping people from being absolutely wrecked by curse/frag/inevitable or prox/lotus/soul harvest.

The DoT damage reduction passive should be replaced with "reduce physical damage." Then all skills need another balance pass to determine which type of damage they do. Ultimates included.

KenaPKK

Can't quote when I'm on my phone.

All I took from your above post, Ish, is that Magicka Detonation and morphs give too much burst. I agree that they would be over the top without Hardy. But what about builds that don't use Prox/Inev?

Peel_Ya_Cap_517

Can we stop asking "to talk about it" like your Dad's about to sit you down and have, "The Talk"?

KenaPKK

But we're trying to get Daddy ZoS to have "the talk." They don't like talking with us usually.

Peel_Ya_Cap_517

KenaPKK wrote: »

But we're trying to get Daddy ZoS to have "the talk." They don't like talking with us usually.

They talk to us all the time its just you people don't listen and just continue to *** and *** and ***

Give it a rest already

KenaPKK

This thread was calm and civil before you showed up. Discussion is welcome here, not attitude.

Peel_Ya_Cap_517

I believe it was you that said "Zos never talk to us, waa waa!"

Just because you come up with some pea-brained idea while you're sitting on the toilet doesn't mean they are required to reply immediately to your request

hammayolettuce

I see no reason why an addition to reducing melee/stamina based attack dmg cant be added into the cp tree under an existing champion point.

*

lolo_01b16_ESO

Changing thick skinned to reduced physical damage would make senes in my opinion.

However I don't think the offensive cp need to be changed. People who complain that stamina builds would need less cp fail to see that there is a difference between magic damage, and skills that cost magicka. In fact most magicka builds (apart from sorcs) only need either elemental expert or thaumaturge whereas stamina builds mostly need mighty and thaumaturge. (NB execute, evil hunter, poison arrow, burning light procs and most ultimates)

Takllin

hammayolettuce wrote: »

I see no reason why an addition to reducing melee/stamina based attack dmg cant be added into the cp tree under an existing champion point.

*

Agreed, just add Physical to Hardy.

frozywozy

Soulac wrote: »

Ultimates except take flight are based on magic damage and scale with the magic damage increasing champion passive.
There is no physical damage ultimate I could use, so I will always be less effective than a Magicka build based on ultimate usage.

Like, who in the hell thought about making Take Flight scales off physical damage and the rest off magical damage? That doesn't make any sense and it is gives a pretty good idea of how screwed up the scaling system is from stamina to magicka.

The ultimate you use should scale off physical damage if your highest stat is stamina and spell damage if your highest stat is magicka.. as simple as that

Derra wrote: »

Soulac wrote: »

Ultimates except take flight are based on magic damage and scale with the magic damage increasing champion passive.
There is no physical damage ultimate I could use, so I will always be less effective than a Magicka build based on ultimate usage.

And what builds BASED on ultimate usage are there for nightblades?

You´re arguing from a point where everything at your disposal outclasses magica dmg apart from your ultimate (I would suggest you don´t start about batswarm - it´s not going to help your point).

Sure you can have your physical dmg ultimates - if they add physical dmg mitigation and merge magic dmg into elemental expert passive. I´m pretty confident you would not like the results in regard to your overall performance.

If Take Flight would work when it needs to (A.k.a when there is a blob stacking up), I would be fine with that! But it actually doesn't in most scenarios. Your dragon wings appears on your feets under the ground and you lose your ultimate.

And if the leap actually goes up, then when you land into the blob, you gets cc'ed immediately, you cannot cc break for 5 seconds because of the lag and you die. GG

I don't even bother using leap anymore unless I'm dueling or 1vXing.
In group play, Corrosive Armor ftw.

Ishammael wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

A better way to think about all ults except Take Flight dealing magic damage is "I have basic abilities that deal physical damage and are not mitigated by Hardy but receive the same percentage amplification via Mighty, so I will always be more effective than an all-magicka damage build."

Then there are stam DKs with their burst...but that is another issue entirely.

If they let ults used by stamina builds deal physical damage and added a 25% physical damage mitigation star, you'd be performing worse than the current situation. Hardy is bad design.

I don't agree with "Hardy is bad design." In fact, I think its the only thing keeping people from being absolutely wrecked by curse/frag/inevitable or prox/lotus/soul harvest.

The DoT damage reduction passive should be replaced with "reduce physical damage." Then all skills need another balance pass to determine which type of damage they do. Ultimates included.

Hardy, Resistant, Thick Skinned and Spell Shield.

Without any of those, a magicka sorc would mean chuck norris.

Dreyloch

KenaPKK wrote: »

Red CP have a % magic damage mitigation star, but not one for physical damage. Also, magicka builds have to commit waaaay more CP to match stamina in combat effectiveness because of how the offensive stars are spread out for magicka and because of Hardy being a thing. At the current CP cap, which I have almost reached (yay!), stamina outclasses magicka entirely. Why?

There are also better passives for stamina than there are for magicka.

Every day as I play my magicka character...I wonder why I am so gimped..... I feel noticeably weaker as a magicka nightblade than I do as a stamina Breton in terms of both damage and survivability.

Also, I hate how race pigeonholes you into either magicka or stamina. But that is a different topic entirely.

Did you really just type this? After how many times myself and many others have been ganked by NB's anywhere there is pvp? Seriously dude? It's a tradeoff, you want to fight from the shadows and disappear just as quickly.Hell, you get to do it mid-battle. Your weakness is to compensate being able to gank with an I Win button. The rest of the population should not be required to have a detect pot up to play this game. Oh, and magikca DK's are far worse off, so save the tears.

Ishammael

KenaPKK wrote: »

Can't quote when I'm on my phone.

All I took from your above post, Ish, is that Magicka Detonation and morphs give too much burst. I agree that they would be over the top without Hardy. But what about builds that don't use Prox/Inev?

Unfortunately, Prox/Inev are so good that nearly all magicka builds use them. Its too easy to cast det, load up your Empower buff, streak/lotus, and launch an ultimate. Because stats in 1.7 are ~15-20% higher with v16 gear, damage output has returned to nearly 1.6 levels especially considering most people have an extra 100 or so CPs.

A return to pre-1.6 health ratios (1.5:1:1) would be a welcome change and help a bit.

DKs and their DoTs are in a bad, bad place regardless.

At the end of the day, the champion system needs a careful, extensive balance pass in conjunction with the next careful, extensive skill balance pass.

OdinForge

I think I might actually have to disagree with this, you're actually the one who changed my mind on this Kena. You're the one magblade (that I've met so far) that can go toe to toe with a good stamblade and win. I cringe to think of what a properly geared magblade could do with a physical resist CP and shields AND cloak (for people without a good cloak counter).

I started 1.7 by experimenting with magblade, and everything was great. The utility is amazing, the healing and self sustain are great. The damage is great (even with hardy and resistances) especially with ultimate dumps. I especially loved those 1v1 moments where I could take advantage of all my utility. The one weakness I found was one that I shared with an impen'less stamblade, you take too much damage (from multiple sources) and it hurts your resources. The only difference being I could dodge more on stam, and I didn't notice the issue as much. But I never geared my magblade the way you have, not until recently at least.

I don't think the CP system is as blatantly broken, or unfair towards stamina builds as some people think.

Poxheart

OdinForge wrote: »

I think I might actually have to disagree with this, you're actually the one who changed my mind on this Kena. You're the one magblade (that I've met so far) that can go toe to toe with a good stamblade and win. I cringe to think of what a properly geared magblade could do with a physical resist CP and shields AND cloak (for people without a good cloak counter).

I started 1.7 by experimenting with magblade, and everything was great. The utility is amazing, the healing and self sustain are great. The damage is great (even with hardy and resistances) especially with ultimate dumps. I especially loved those 1v1 moments where I could take advantage of all my utility. The one weakness I found was one that I shared with an impen'less stamblade, you take too much damage (from multiple sources) and it hurts your resources. The only difference being I could dodge more on stam, and I didn't notice the issue as much. But I never geared my magblade the way you have, not until recently at least.

I don't think the CP system is as blatantly broken, or unfair towards stamina builds as some people think.

If only I had talked to you before using all my mats to upgrade to v16 gear.

frozywozy

Poxheart wrote: »

OdinForge wrote: »

I think I might actually have to disagree with this, you're actually the one who changed my mind on this Kena. You're the one magblade (that I've met so far) that can go toe to toe with a good stamblade and win. I cringe to think of what a properly geared magblade could do with a physical resist CP and shields AND cloak (for people without a good cloak counter).

I started 1.7 by experimenting with magblade, and everything was great. The utility is amazing, the healing and self sustain are great. The damage is great (even with hardy and resistances) especially with ultimate dumps. I especially loved those 1v1 moments where I could take advantage of all my utility. The one weakness I found was one that I shared with an impen'less stamblade, you take too much damage (from multiple sources) and it hurts your resources. The only difference being I could dodge more on stam, and I didn't notice the issue as much. But I never geared my magblade the way you have, not until recently at least.

I don't think the CP system is as blatantly broken, or unfair towards stamina builds as some people think.

If only I had talked to you before using all my mats to upgrade to v16 gear.

(╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻

Kartalin

It's true that you can reduce magic damage and not reduce physical damage through CP.

It's also true that you can increase weapon damage but not spell damage through CP. Magicka users have to use points in Thaumaturge and Elemental Expert to increase their damage and both are blue but in different constellations.

Given the diminishing returns you get from adding more champion points to a passive, it may be fair. Or maybe not? But this is part of why you see so many stamina burst builds and magicka sustain builds.

----

As a stamina nightblade it's always bothered me a bit that my ultimates wouldn't get the benefit of my champion points nor my weapon damage. But I'm also bothered that Killer's Blade uses magic damage so there's that too.

FENGRUSH

If they do balance CP system out, which they should - magicka damage is going to advance up again. Its really a culmination of fixes from addressing skillss + ults (scaling with proper stats) and giving balanced CP options.

Dont worry, they will for sure get everything right in the next patch. I also anticipate there wont be any bugs.

frozywozy

FENGRUSH wrote: »

If they do balance CP system out, which they should - magicka damage is going to advance up again. Its really a culmination of fixes from addressing skillss + ults (scaling with proper stats) and giving balanced CP options.

Dont worry, they will for sure get everything right in the next patch. I also anticipate there wont be any bugs.

OdinForge

Poxheart wrote: »

OdinForge wrote: »

I think I might actually have to disagree with this, you're actually the one who changed my mind on this Kena. You're the one magblade (that I've met so far) that can go toe to toe with a good stamblade and win. I cringe to think of what a properly geared magblade could do with a physical resist CP and shields AND cloak (for people without a good cloak counter).

I started 1.7 by experimenting with magblade, and everything was great. The utility is amazing, the healing and self sustain are great. The damage is great (even with hardy and resistances) especially with ultimate dumps. I especially loved those 1v1 moments where I could take advantage of all my utility. The one weakness I found was one that I shared with an impen'less stamblade, you take too much damage (from multiple sources) and it hurts your resources. The only difference being I could dodge more on stam, and I didn't notice the issue as much. But I never geared my magblade the way you have, not until recently at least.

I don't think the CP system is as blatantly broken, or unfair towards stamina builds as some people think.

If only I had talked to you before using all my mats to upgrade to v16 gear.

Check yo mailbox one of these days, care package incoming.

KenaPKK

OdinForge wrote: »

I think I might actually have to disagree with this, you're actually the one who changed my mind on this Kena. You're the one magblade (that I've met so far) that can go toe to toe with a good stamblade and win. I cringe to think of what a properly geared magblade could do with a physical resist CP and shields AND cloak (for people without a good cloak counter).

I started 1.7 by experimenting with magblade, and everything was great. The utility is amazing, the healing and self sustain are great. The damage is great (even with hardy and resistances) especially with ultimate dumps. I especially loved those 1v1 moments where I could take advantage of all my utility. The one weakness I found was one that I shared with an impen'less stamblade, you take too much damage (from multiple sources) and it hurts your resources. The only difference being I could dodge more on stam, and I didn't notice the issue as much. But I never geared my magblade the way you have, not until recently at least.

I don't think the CP system is as blatantly broken, or unfair towards stamina builds as some people think.

If it's that hard for magicka nightblade to function, there's a problem.

OdinForge wrote: »

Poxheart wrote: »

OdinForge wrote: »

I think I might actually have to disagree with this, you're actually the one who changed my mind on this Kena. You're the one magblade (that I've met so far) that can go toe to toe with a good stamblade and win. I cringe to think of what a properly geared magblade could do with a physical resist CP and shields AND cloak (for people without a good cloak counter).

I started 1.7 by experimenting with magblade, and everything was great. The utility is amazing, the healing and self sustain are great. The damage is great (even with hardy and resistances) especially with ultimate dumps. I especially loved those 1v1 moments where I could take advantage of all my utility. The one weakness I found was one that I shared with an impen'less stamblade, you take too much damage (from multiple sources) and it hurts your resources. The only difference being I could dodge more on stam, and I didn't notice the issue as much. But I never geared my magblade the way you have, not until recently at least.

I don't think the CP system is as blatantly broken, or unfair towards stamina builds as some people think.

If only I had talked to you before using all my mats to upgrade to v16 gear.

Check yo mailbox one of these days, care package incoming.

I was going to do the same thing. ^^

KenaPKK

Dreyloch wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

Red CP have a % magic damage mitigation star, but not one for physical damage. Also, magicka builds have to commit waaaay more CP to match stamina in combat effectiveness because of how the offensive stars are spread out for magicka and because of Hardy being a thing. At the current CP cap, which I have almost reached (yay!), stamina outclasses magicka entirely. Why?

There are also better passives for stamina than there are for magicka.

Every day as I play my magicka character...I wonder why I am so gimped..... I feel noticeably weaker as a magicka nightblade than I do as a stamina Breton in terms of both damage and survivability.

Also, I hate how race pigeonholes you into either magicka or stamina. But that is a different topic entirely.

Did you really just type this? After how many times myself and many others have been ganked by NB's anywhere there is pvp? Seriously dude? It's a tradeoff, you want to fight from the shadows and disappear just as quickly.Hell, you get to do it mid-battle. Your weakness is to compensate being able to gank with an I Win button. The rest of the population should not be required to have a detect pot up to play this game. Oh, and magikca DK's are far worse off, so save the tears.

1. I don't gank. Also, if you are ganked by a solo nightblade and die, then you are bad and need to learn awareness, reflexes, and counterplay. If you are ganked by a group of players and die, then you put yourself in a vulnerable position and got punished. Still bad. Either l2p or go zergball where actual skill and competitive improvement don't matter.
2. My "disappear quickly as hell" I Win Button is unreliable and easily countered by any AoE ever, a handful of detection abilities, and a consumable.
3. If you have to use a detect potion to beat a nightblade, you are both bad yourself and fighting bad nightblades. If someone ever uses a detect potion against me in a fight, I will kill them outright before their next potion is available. Period.
4. This post is not about class balance anyway. It's about stam versus magicka balance. I just use magicka and stam nightblade as my primary examples because my main is a nightblade. Pay attention please. Your judgment is clouded by all that salt.

This is why people like you don't work on game balancing teams.

Poxheart

OdinForge wrote: »

Poxheart wrote: »

OdinForge wrote: »

I think I might actually have to disagree with this, you're actually the one who changed my mind on this Kena. You're the one magblade (that I've met so far) that can go toe to toe with a good stamblade and win. I cringe to think of what a properly geared magblade could do with a physical resist CP and shields AND cloak (for people without a good cloak counter).

I started 1.7 by experimenting with magblade, and everything was great. The utility is amazing, the healing and self sustain are great. The damage is great (even with hardy and resistances) especially with ultimate dumps. I especially loved those 1v1 moments where I could take advantage of all my utility. The one weakness I found was one that I shared with an impen'less stamblade, you take too much damage (from multiple sources) and it hurts your resources. The only difference being I could dodge more on stam, and I didn't notice the issue as much. But I never geared my magblade the way you have, not until recently at least.

I don't think the CP system is as blatantly broken, or unfair towards stamina builds as some people think.

If only I had talked to you before using all my mats to upgrade to v16 gear.

Check yo mailbox one of these days, care package incoming.

I'll keep my eyes open!