Templar issues thread

FENGRUSH

AfkNinja wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

iamnotweakrwb17_ESO wrote: »

This games combat is horribly imbalanced.

This is the only game I've played where stupid hard hitting attacks can be spammed and also have hard CC attached to them. This is also the only game I've played where being rooted or snared to the spot is as bad as being hard CCed. I am used to games where CC is used tactically. Whoever designed the combat and let wrecking blow, crystal frags, concealed weapon, etc CC must have been high.

That being said, Templar's are hands down the worst overall class in this game.

Aedric Spear

Puncturing sweep / biting jabs is absolutely useless in PvP. You can be utterly shut down by anyone with a root. All they have to do is root you and step behind you and your ***. You have to cleanse or bleed stamina and pray they don't root you all over again. On top of that, landing the ability in PvP is an absolute nightmare. It "requires" near zero lag. Cyrodil is nothing BUT lag. On top of that, it hands out free CC immunity with a stupid knockback.

Then you have aura of javelin which has a massive 20m range. Destro's knockback is a 36m+ range for crying out land. This wouldn't be so bad but you have to slot "something" or you lose out on piercing spear passive which is the only thing worthwhile in the entire aedric spear tree.

Toppling charge has never worked properly. Even when they claimed to have fixed it, it was still broken. That means you're forced into sword and shield / two-hander if you want to melee and if you're a magic build its too bad so sad. The only thing you are getting is the middle finger. Thanks Zenimax.

Blazing spear is a 1 person CC on a *** weak AOE which actually had its damage nerfed recently even more. It's range sucks and it is a *** to cast from keeps because the ground target won't go where you place it.

Then we have Sun shield which is hands down the most worthless shield in the game. 15% HP shield for an absurdly disproportionate magicka cost. Now I know they are trolling.

Crescent sweep has a 5m radius on an AOE based ultimate which hits for a hell of a lot less than all the other ultimates.

Dawn's wrath

Vampires bane is fire based despite all the other abilities being virtually all magicka. I wouldn't mind it so bad if shields could actually be dotted up.

Dark flares cast time is crippling. It can't be light attack weaved or you have to suffer the full animation constantly. The talent self snares you while casting which is a horrendous flaw in it for PvP.

The Solar barrage AOE morph of solar flare causes your animation to stop completely rendering it useless. This is a real shame because I would probably use it if it didn't do this and hit a little harder.\

Backlash scales off max magicka and not spell power. It can also be purged rendering it useless. Its cap is also pitiful for an attack which is supposed to act as burst damage.

Eclipse is single target and also purgeable.

Radiant oppression is bugged. It also doesn't hit anywhere near as hard as it should. It also self snares your character.

Magicka builds must slot at least 1 dawns wrath ability to proc the illuminate passive. Unfortunately the only ability worth putting on your bar is the execute and its not something you cast at full health.

Nova is an ok ultimate for PvE but horrible for PvP. It has the same issues as dragonknight standard. It's a waste of ultimate.

Restoring light

Honor the dead and breath of life are both good morphs. One is geared for solo play and the other group play. I use both.

Healing ritual is absolutely useless. Its healing radius is horrible. It has a 2 second cast time and it self snares you. Nobody gives a crap that it heals for potentially a lot. It is not a practical talent in a game taht requires dodging and blocking on the fly. This talent more than any other tells me that Zenimax does not actually play their own game.

Radiant aura is rendered utterly useless by the minor and major buffs. The repentance morph is really good though.

Purifying ritual is a good cleanse. Unfortunately you have to stand in it constantly to proc focused healing to buff your healing 30%. This is fine in PvE but horrible in PvP unless you are in a ball group where everyone is stacking in your puddle anyway.

Rune of focus is ok for tanks but horrible for anyone else that actually needs to move around.

The healing ultimate is fine in PvE. It makes a handful of vet dungeons significantly easier. It's garbage for PvP tho as you can still easily be burst down while your locked in its animation.

Summary

Looking through the list, Templar's have a grand total of 4 useful PvP abilities. Those abilities being repentance, honor the dead, breath of life and purifying ritual. Beyond that, all the other abilities are a joke.

Templar's also receive no boost to health magicka or stamina. They have a small boost to weapon damage but none to spell power from balanced warrior. But don't worry.. our resources are in good shape because we get a massive 4% off the cost of magicka, stamina and ultimates!!!!

@FENGRUSH

and you want to nerf our BOL because its obviously the problem right? sigh...

Hard to take anything serious after reading nova is horrible for PvP . The healing ultimate allows you to be burst down??? What/how?? Rune of focus is OK for tanks?? Horrible when you need to move around?? How or why? The only thing horrible is any magicka templar that wouldnt run rune focus - this skill is amazing and practically free.


Anyone can make a thread and complain about the class outwardly. Theres skills that need fixes and skills that arent up to snuff and require buffs - it goes for every class. Theres also skills that are too strong - BoL is the only one Id rate, but this whole thread revolves around how terrible templar is, which is really offbase given the amount of templars youd see nightly in PvP making groups indestructible.

What is worse off than your templar? Magicka DK - nothing is in a worse situation than them. Stam templar isnt as well off due to mechanics changes with jabs. Magicka templar? Has a great place in this game right now. Am I saying its fine and just needs a nerf on one skill? No - but that is how you responded to me adding a point in this thread. Wont get anywhere making comments like that.

How do you expect people to react when you only ask for nerfs? Nowhere in your post did you suggest any changes to anything else, so to a Templar of course it just looks like you're complaining and asking for Nerfs.

If your post had been full of suggestions for the class as a whole as you see it I doubt many of us would have reacted in that manner.


P.S. when you wrote "Anyone can make a thread and complain about the class outwardly." this strongly suggested to me that you didn't read the thread. There were tons of constructive posts regarding bugs AND suggestions for positive changes. It wasn't even close to all of us "complaining". I'm not even against toning down BOL, but if they do they need to give us something in return.

Thats refering to a post made - not the thread in total. I agree with changing other things, like making ritual a more feasible heal. Its not templars fault balance is what it is - they make sweeping changes that alter how the game is every huge patch. In 1.6 you could burst someone that didnt take care of themselves and kill them before they could get a heal. I dont actually like this design of killing through targets easy. I prefer a solution where you can still kill people that dont take care of themselves, but you are not countered by healing at a 1:1 ratio. Healing should be a supplement to survival, like CC breaking, dodging, buffing/debuffing. As it stands, BoL can take care of someone that isnt even tabbed into the game for awhile, theres something terribly wrong with that. Healing is out of control, because of the meta swing. It is what it is.

Im not your best source for what to change and honestly... Im kind of done fighting those battles. I fought it for my own class and the end result after months was ZOS said they were going to make changes and gave us a morph of a skill nobody would ever use. I said earlier in this post I strike as gruesome offenders to PvP - such as gap closer spamming, out of control healing, aoe caps etc. Balance is desperately needed for all classes - and small steps are better to take. Instead we will get a meta swing next patch that impacts all classes, and then layered individual changes underneath it on a per class basis that changes thing so drastically the designers have no way of knowing what will happen. The result is were revisiting new problems in a couple months. Round and round we go~

AfkNinja

"As mentioned earlier, there are many tweaks being made to both active and passive abilities in the Thieves Guild DLC including Healing Ritual, Eclipse, Sun Shield, Vampire’s Bane, Radiant Aura, Restoring Focus, and Breath of Life to name a few."

It seems like you will get your wish with Breath of Life, hopefully the rest of the changes are worth it.

Lettigall

BoL should be nerfed if templar damage buffed or shield is revived and made useful again. The whole Restoring light skill line prevents damage buff for templars, because healers shouldn't have high dps. It doesn't matter that you are stam templar or mag dps, while community and more important devs sees templars as healers, this class have no future.

In perfect world nerf to temp class heals would mean that other areas gets buffed, but knowing ZOS attitude to templars I wouldn't count on it. Most likely strong abilities like Bol, jabs/sweep gonna get huge nerf but some weaker abilities will get some minor buffs.

Khivas_Carrick

And here I am waiting on that patch just to see if I can do DPS as a Templar without having to sell off a kidney, ***, and maybe half my liver for rare specialized gear.

Cryhavoc

Breath of Life is the only skill we have that doesnt need to be touched. This requires no more discussion.

If we balance the game around 1v1, all things being equal, Templar vs any other class should be a loooong fight. Am I right?

If we balance 4v4, one of each class, it should still be the same: a looooong fight that comes down to line of sight/player skill/resource management/etc. Four templars vs four nightblades should be very different fight, but very similar results.

My question for ZOS: what is the plan for balance? How are you balancing classes? What is the plan/vision/goal for each class?

Tanis-Stormbinder

1. Fix Toppling charge bug
2. Let Blazing Spear stun more than one enemy
3. Make Sun Fire do Magic damage instead of fire damage

SeptimusDova

Spot on Cinbri

dodgehopper_ESO

FENGRUSH wrote: »

AfkNinja wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

pelennor_fields wrote: »

I think what you are experiencing is situational. I have 4k spell power and over 50 percent crit chance. I am not sitting by my screen but i know i crit heal for around 14k.. So yeah.. If you are trying to burst down a min/max build it probably feels that way. But then again you can probably one/two shot them. It sounds like you just want to make it so your damage is consitently higher than a kitted out templar's heals.... So unless it is a glitch it seems like it is about right. (except making it heal group only.)

It is that way - that is why BoL/healing needs to be revisited. Healing should not outdo damage. Nobody is critting for 15-20k, but healers are popping that stuff nonstop, and most groups have multiple healers doing this. Its absurd at this point compared to damage.

Healing should not outdo damage? Do you even read what you write? What would be the point in being a healer if you can't out heal 1 dps? Seriously. As other people have pointed out the skill is expensive and you're only getting that huge burst heal on one person, the second two get vastly reduced healing. It's not sustainable, plus you can just CC us and burst us down.

If there is no bug you can provide evidence for what are you doing asking for Templar nerfs? This is a bug thread and suggestions thread for positive changes, I think Templar's have been nerfed enough.

Healing should be a supplement to survival - it shouldnt outdo damage. 1 guy laying on the ground not breaking any CC being completely idle can be kept alive with someone hammering BoL? Something is wrong at that point. Theres no point even using other heals because of the current cost/sustain of the meta. Balance is needed in so many places, this is just one gross offender.

Focus the healer. I'm sure you do but that is really the solution. Teams should be focusing the healer just like they do in PVE. If you're too busy beating on a tank getting healed, you should lose that fight or stalemate. I'm sorry but DPS should not win at every turn. This is my big complaint with a lot of mmo's. Most mmo's start off relatively balanced but they have a quirky flaw. In order to deal with the quirky flaw they keep rebalancing things, and magically DPS always ends up the best way to win. I don't really see why it should be this way. Healers and Tanks need to be useful and have a purpose along with DPS. All three should have an opportunity to win. I can promise you without some other drastic changes to Templar if you nerf BoL the Magic Templar class is dead. There will literally be nothing left unique that a templar can do except perhaps Luminous shards for dungeons. I can live with that, but the Templar class will need an appropriate and SERIOUS buff in multiple other areas to make up for it. Honestly I would prefer it because I'd rather play a Templar Tanky or DPS warrior build. I don't think you should entirely gut the capacity for Templars to heal though just because they make life more difficult.

@Fengrush, I know you're a good player but for goodness sake if your enemy is chaining healers and you lose because of it, toughen up. Don't let it take out your ego man, its just a game and you got outplayed by more enemies. I know what it is like to get beaten by players who are not individually better than me, but hey that's life. You might be Muhammed Ali in his prime, but if 30 guys charge you and beat you down with baseball bats there isn't much you're going to do about it. The same applies here. If you can't take out the healers because you don't have enough guys on your team who can cc them and burn them down, that just means your team was not sufficient to win the fight. That's life. That's RvRvR. This isn't a Battleground or Arena where we're fighting 4v4, and even if it were you'd still need to deal with the healer in that situation. Its just basic strategy.

It is a GOOD thing that healers have a use in this game. I'm not sure how interesting the battlefield would be if everyone were just pure DPS. I'd rather just go play Counterstrike or Halo honestly or something like that, both of which are awesome games.

FENGRUSH

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

AfkNinja wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

pelennor_fields wrote: »

I think what you are experiencing is situational. I have 4k spell power and over 50 percent crit chance. I am not sitting by my screen but i know i crit heal for around 14k.. So yeah.. If you are trying to burst down a min/max build it probably feels that way. But then again you can probably one/two shot them. It sounds like you just want to make it so your damage is consitently higher than a kitted out templar's heals.... So unless it is a glitch it seems like it is about right. (except making it heal group only.)

It is that way - that is why BoL/healing needs to be revisited. Healing should not outdo damage. Nobody is critting for 15-20k, but healers are popping that stuff nonstop, and most groups have multiple healers doing this. Its absurd at this point compared to damage.

Healing should not outdo damage? Do you even read what you write? What would be the point in being a healer if you can't out heal 1 dps? Seriously. As other people have pointed out the skill is expensive and you're only getting that huge burst heal on one person, the second two get vastly reduced healing. It's not sustainable, plus you can just CC us and burst us down.

If there is no bug you can provide evidence for what are you doing asking for Templar nerfs? This is a bug thread and suggestions thread for positive changes, I think Templar's have been nerfed enough.

Healing should be a supplement to survival - it shouldnt outdo damage. 1 guy laying on the ground not breaking any CC being completely idle can be kept alive with someone hammering BoL? Something is wrong at that point. Theres no point even using other heals because of the current cost/sustain of the meta. Balance is needed in so many places, this is just one gross offender.

Focus the healer. I'm sure you do but that is really the solution. Teams should be focusing the healer just like they do in PVE. If you're too busy beating on a tank getting healed, you should lose that fight or stalemate. I'm sorry but DPS should not win at every turn. This is my big complaint with a lot of mmo's. Most mmo's start off relatively balanced but they have a quirky flaw. In order to deal with the quirky flaw they keep rebalancing things, and magically DPS always ends up the best way to win. I don't really see why it should be this way. Healers and Tanks need to be useful and have a purpose along with DPS. All three should have an opportunity to win. I can promise you without some other drastic changes to Templar if you nerf BoL the Magic Templar class is dead. There will literally be nothing left unique that a templar can do except perhaps Luminous shards for dungeons. I can live with that, but the Templar class will need an appropriate and SERIOUS buff in multiple other areas to make up for it. Honestly I would prefer it because I'd rather play a Templar Tanky or DPS warrior build. I don't think you should entirely gut the capacity for Templars to heal though just because they make life more difficult.

@Fengrush, I know you're a good player but for goodness sake if your enemy is chaining healers and you lose because of it, toughen up. Don't let it take out your ego man, its just a game and you got outplayed by more enemies. I know what it is like to get beaten by players who are not individually better than me, but hey that's life. You might be Muhammed Ali in his prime, but if 30 guys charge you and beat you down with baseball bats there isn't much you're going to do about it. The same applies here. If you can't take out the healers because you don't have enough guys on your team who can cc them and burn them down, that just means your team was not sufficient to win the fight. That's life. That's RvRvR. This isn't a Battleground or Arena where we're fighting 4v4, and even if it were you'd still need to deal with the healer in that situation. Its just basic strategy.

It is a GOOD thing that healers have a use in this game. I'm not sure how interesting the battlefield would be if everyone were just pure DPS. I'd rather just go play Counterstrike or Halo honestly or something like that, both of which are awesome games.

Im not talking about gutting healing or BoL, Im just talking about healing outweighing damage 1:1 is bad. What happens when there is 2 templar healers and I 'go for the healer'? Which is what I do pretty much every single fight if you watch any of my PvP. The one templar covers the other. Is that all it takes to counter people? Theres no options left? Do I have to kill both healers at the same time now? It becomes a numbers game, and skill is taken out of the equation. Multiple healers should outweigh my DPS, one healer should not. Healing has a point - its why I have a templar healing in my group all of the time. I made the build, I tested it - I know what it is capable of, and in the current damage meta, its a joke.

Healing is effective as it is now due to champion points in large - its another thing that has run away with changes that are not well tested. Blabafat is probably amongst the best magicka templars in the game or the top of them all. Get him to 10% in a duel and hes back to 100% with an instant heal. Just as damage shouldnt be allowed to instant kill people, healing shouldnt be instant filling people. Its terrible design.

I get your issues, I have issues with my class too - but this one is pretty difficult to agree with. To reiterate - there are more templars now in groups than there were in the last patch, this class is not 'without tools'. Going through the templar they have more viable skills than they do non-viable. You want to see a class without options? My stam sorc has 3 skills that I can use in PvP. The ults are not good with stam, and the other 12 skills cant find use anywhere. Magicka DKs? Completely murdered my the champion system from damage perspective. Is this a reason not to address templar? No it isnt - but its to tell you every class has problems, and while there may be bug fixes and skills that need value added to them that I wouldnt disagree with - this is the current situation with almost every class in the game outside of nightblades and magicka sorcs. They all need to be revisited. But templars are not dead, they are far from it. They are absolutely essential to groups in a huge way.

dodgehopper_ESO

Cinbri wrote: »

Just ignore him. Typicial fotm player came to trolling and transform thread into trash. Remind me of some abssador who came into another thread and did the same.

Lets be fair guys. @Fengrush is a solid player and I'll be honest I love to hate him on Haderus. He makes for fun a lot of times, I just think some of his comments are ***. Look everyone has *** so I'm not even saying anything bad about him here, lets make that clear. He doesn't play a Templar and he hasn't experienced what it is like. I have. I've played Templar since early Beta. I've played all 4 classes, and I have a pretty solid grasp on what each of them is capable of. @Fengrush was right in saying that Stamplar is having a hard time. I know because when I have had time to play lately, I've pvp'd with my Stamplar DPS character (he use to be a tank). His concept/style were always about being the knight/warrior build, in large part based upon the spear theme and the balanced warrior passive. In its current iteration it really underperforms when you compare it to things like Stam DK, Stam NB, & Stam Sorc (@Fengrush's famed build). Please realize though that @Fengrush was bucking the system as an Orc Sorc Stam build for a long time. They were not in a good place and I was one of the ones saying that Stam Sorc needed love on the forums. He made it work too, and to great success so lets be fair to the guy at least. He's not a FotM player. He's a diehard Orc Storc and props to him for making it work during the good and the bad. In its current iteration, the Orc Storc Lightning Buzzsaw build (what I call it) is probably one of the best builds in the game, but I would hardly fault him for that. The high mobility and high dps a Storc can pull off make them a force to be reckoned with, and very annoying to deal with particularly in the current iteration. The fact that he's an Orc (Swift Warrior) just compounds that issue.

I think the problem here is simply a difference in perspective. He @Fengrush usually plays in smaller tight knit groups from what I've seen, and they are all pretty good. On the AD faction I'm usually in a team with a mixture of solid players and newer ones. I think he finds it frustrating when he loses to our larger groups, and the point I'm trying to make here is that you shouldn't feel bad if you get outplayed by a larger team. The larger team SHOULD be able to outplay you in most instances. If 1/4 of my team are healer and I have 30 people (7 healers), and none of your team has a healer and you have 5 people, it should go really badly for you, I don't care how good you are.

Everyone feels the other side is merciless. I know what it is like to get flooded by either or both rival factions at once. That's just part of the game. Its a battlefield we can't ever afford to be nice in the fighting, but we can be polite to each other on the field. It isn't any of our faults if the battle gets slanted in population. This is where leadership is vital, and where recruiting is vital for each of the factions.

FENGRUSH

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Just ignore him. Typicial fotm player came to trolling and transform thread into trash. Remind me of some abssador who came into another thread and did the same.

Lets be fair guys. @Fengrush is a solid player and I'll be honest I love to hate him on Haderus. He makes for fun a lot of times, I just think some of his comments are ***. Look everyone has *** so I'm not even saying anything bad about him here, lets make that clear. He doesn't play a Templar and he hasn't experienced what it is like. I have. I've played Templar since early Beta. I've played all 4 classes, and I have a pretty solid grasp on what each of them is capable of. @Fengrush was right in saying that Stamplar is having a hard time. I know because when I have had time to play lately, I've pvp'd with my Stamplar DPS character (he use to be a tank). His concept/style were always about being the knight/warrior build, in large part based upon the spear theme and the balanced warrior passive. In its current iteration it really underperforms when you compare it to things like Stam DK, Stam NB, & Stam Sorc (@Fengrush's famed build). Please realize though that @Fengrush was bucking the system as an Orc Sorc Stam build for a long time. They were not in a good place and I was one of the ones saying that Stam Sorc needed love on the forums. He made it work too, and to great success so lets be fair to the guy at least. He's not a FotM player. He's a diehard Orc Storc and props to him for making it work during the good and the bad. In its current iteration, the Orc Storc Lightning Buzzsaw build (what I call it) is probably one of the best builds in the game, but I would hardly fault him for that. The high mobility and high dps a Storc can pull off make them a force to be reckoned with, and very annoying to deal with particularly in the current iteration. The fact that he's an Orc (Swift Warrior) just compounds that issue.

I think the problem here is simply a difference in perspective. He @Fengrush usually plays in smaller tight knit groups from what I've seen, and they are all pretty good. On the AD faction I'm usually in a team with a mixture of solid players and newer ones. I think he finds it frustrating when he loses to our larger groups, and the point I'm trying to make here is that you shouldn't feel bad if you get outplayed by a larger team. The larger team SHOULD be able to outplay you in most instances. If 1/4 of my team are healer and I have 30 people (7 healers), and none of your team has a healer and you have 5 people, it should go really badly for you, I don't care how good you are.

Everyone feels the other side is merciless. I know what it is like to get flooded by either or both rival factions at once. That's just part of the game. Its a battlefield we can't ever afford to be nice in the fighting, but we can be polite to each other on the field. It isn't any of our faults if the battle gets slanted in population. This is where leadership is vital, and where recruiting is vital for each of the factions.

Thank you dodgehopper for the props - I didnt even see @cinbri comments and the fact that he says im a fotm player goes to show what kind of value his opinion really holds. Completely misguided and based on emotion more than reason. I agree that with 7 healers you would be outweighing damage given its not delivered in a burst format. That is given the current scenario of AOE caps as well though, which I dont agree with. If our AOE could spill out to hit all 30 people it would create stress on the healers they dont deal with today and force them to spread out and create a more dynamic fight. It is what it is though. Whenever you see me with more than 2 people though one of them is likely my healer. I believe that healer setup is one of the strongest in the game and is likely better equipped than 99% of the healers we engage. Its why he can tank 5 people for over a minute in fights, because thats what a well built templar is capable of doing in this patch, and its a bit too extreme.

For the record, I played templar for over 6 months in beta, and did get bug fixes on a lot of heals that werent healing for correct values and skills that simply didnt provide the effects they wanted. I also built the healer build in my group and will likely make a video for it since a lot of people are constantly asking. To say I dont understand the templar or what its capable of its completely false. Im really in touch with stamplar as well - so as far as giving opinions on classes, templar is easily the one I can relate to most after sorc.

dodgehopper_ESO

FENGRUSH wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

AfkNinja wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

pelennor_fields wrote: »

I think what you are experiencing is situational. I have 4k spell power and over 50 percent crit chance. I am not sitting by my screen but i know i crit heal for around 14k.. So yeah.. If you are trying to burst down a min/max build it probably feels that way. But then again you can probably one/two shot them. It sounds like you just want to make it so your damage is consitently higher than a kitted out templar's heals.... So unless it is a glitch it seems like it is about right. (except making it heal group only.)

It is that way - that is why BoL/healing needs to be revisited. Healing should not outdo damage. Nobody is critting for 15-20k, but healers are popping that stuff nonstop, and most groups have multiple healers doing this. Its absurd at this point compared to damage.

Healing should not outdo damage? Do you even read what you write? What would be the point in being a healer if you can't out heal 1 dps? Seriously. As other people have pointed out the skill is expensive and you're only getting that huge burst heal on one person, the second two get vastly reduced healing. It's not sustainable, plus you can just CC us and burst us down.

If there is no bug you can provide evidence for what are you doing asking for Templar nerfs? This is a bug thread and suggestions thread for positive changes, I think Templar's have been nerfed enough.

Healing should be a supplement to survival - it shouldnt outdo damage. 1 guy laying on the ground not breaking any CC being completely idle can be kept alive with someone hammering BoL? Something is wrong at that point. Theres no point even using other heals because of the current cost/sustain of the meta. Balance is needed in so many places, this is just one gross offender.

Focus the healer. I'm sure you do but that is really the solution. Teams should be focusing the healer just like they do in PVE. If you're too busy beating on a tank getting healed, you should lose that fight or stalemate. I'm sorry but DPS should not win at every turn. This is my big complaint with a lot of mmo's. Most mmo's start off relatively balanced but they have a quirky flaw. In order to deal with the quirky flaw they keep rebalancing things, and magically DPS always ends up the best way to win. I don't really see why it should be this way. Healers and Tanks need to be useful and have a purpose along with DPS. All three should have an opportunity to win. I can promise you without some other drastic changes to Templar if you nerf BoL the Magic Templar class is dead. There will literally be nothing left unique that a templar can do except perhaps Luminous shards for dungeons. I can live with that, but the Templar class will need an appropriate and SERIOUS buff in multiple other areas to make up for it. Honestly I would prefer it because I'd rather play a Templar Tanky or DPS warrior build. I don't think you should entirely gut the capacity for Templars to heal though just because they make life more difficult.

@Fengrush, I know you're a good player but for goodness sake if your enemy is chaining healers and you lose because of it, toughen up. Don't let it take out your ego man, its just a game and you got outplayed by more enemies. I know what it is like to get beaten by players who are not individually better than me, but hey that's life. You might be Muhammed Ali in his prime, but if 30 guys charge you and beat you down with baseball bats there isn't much you're going to do about it. The same applies here. If you can't take out the healers because you don't have enough guys on your team who can cc them and burn them down, that just means your team was not sufficient to win the fight. That's life. That's RvRvR. This isn't a Battleground or Arena where we're fighting 4v4, and even if it were you'd still need to deal with the healer in that situation. Its just basic strategy.

It is a GOOD thing that healers have a use in this game. I'm not sure how interesting the battlefield would be if everyone were just pure DPS. I'd rather just go play Counterstrike or Halo honestly or something like that, both of which are awesome games.

Im not talking about gutting healing or BoL, Im just talking about healing outweighing damage 1:1 is bad. What happens when there is 2 templar healers and I 'go for the healer'? Which is what I do pretty much every single fight if you watch any of my PvP. The one templar covers the other. Is that all it takes to counter people? Theres no options left? Do I have to kill both healers at the same time now? It becomes a numbers game, and skill is taken out of the equation. Multiple healers should outweigh my DPS, one healer should not. Healing has a point - its why I have a templar healing in my group all of the time. I made the build, I tested it - I know what it is capable of, and in the current damage meta, its a joke.

Healing is effective as it is now due to champion points in large - its another thing that has run away with changes that are not well tested. Blabafat is probably amongst the best magicka templars in the game or the top of them all. Get him to 10% in a duel and hes back to 100% with an instant heal. Just as damage shouldnt be allowed to instant kill people, healing shouldnt be instant filling people. Its terrible design.

I get your issues, I have issues with my class too - but this one is pretty difficult to agree with. To reiterate - there are more templars now in groups than there were in the last patch, this class is not 'without tools'. Going through the templar they have more viable skills than they do non-viable. You want to see a class without options? My stam sorc has 3 skills that I can use in PvP. The ults are not good with stam, and the other 12 skills cant find use anywhere. Magicka DKs? Completely murdered my the champion system from damage perspective. Is this a reason not to address templar? No it isnt - but its to tell you every class has problems, and while there may be bug fixes and skills that need value added to them that I wouldnt disagree with - this is the current situation with almost every class in the game outside of nightblades and magicka sorcs. They all need to be revisited. But templars are not dead, they are far from it. They are absolutely essential to groups in a huge way.

Ironically, I left Magic Templar about 9 months ago. I was bored of being the healer and really I always wanted my main templar to be more of a warrior. I'm not happy with the way things are but I have fun with the build as it stands. I know I would be performing a lot better with a more @blabafat style build, but I just can't bring myself to do it. I did however finally break down and pick up vampire a couple months ago (bear in my my playtime has been greatly reduced since my father's passing, which essentially quadrupled my work load). I've not been able to fully keep up with the changes in the game (with respect to gear and even storyline). To this day I haven't completed Orsinium though I chip away at it. I did however complete IC and actually had a lot of fun running into you down there. I'll probably mess around with the magic build again just to soak the 'enjoyment' out of the Vampire Templar thing for a little while. Ultimately though that isn't my style.

I actually think Stam Sorc is a very good option right now. I think the big problem is Bound Armaments. For my own STORC build I wish Bound Armaments was a click skill with a reasonable duration (20+ seconds). I am not very fond of toggles in an action rpg game, and I would prefer no toggles existed (for any class and any skill line). That's just a personal philosophy and preference, and I know a lot of people will disagree which is fine. That being said I think Bound Armaments is fantastic for the Stamina build. Bolt Escape, Boundless (don't like the stamina morph), Surge, Disintegrate, Class Passives etc are all really good for a Stamina build. I realize you don't have repentance as a Storc, but you make up for it with significantly better regenerations (not bound by major/minor and a slotted skill), higher damage potential, and significantly better mobility and cc. Also, because you don't have a skill like jabs, you are more free to use skills outside of your class, and the Disintegrate passive is far superior to the procs that Templars get. I realize I'm not telling you something you don't already know.

I personally feel Templar has less to offer Stamina builds than any other class in the current build of the game. In terms of Tanking I have to say I'm not particularly fond of the Templar balance at this time either. In terms of magic damage dealing I'm not particularly impressed with Templar. This is why I say Templars are relegated to healing. I'm actually fine with them rethinking Restoring Light to be a more 'open' skill line like Earthen Heart or Siphoning. I think if they were to do this it would allow them to open up the class a bit more to the other archetypes (mdps, wdps, heals, tanking). Ultimately though, I think a pair of equally skilled fighters should more or less stalemate each other, and the fight should come down to slips in timing or errors. In a battle between you and @blabafat I think the fight should take a long time, theoretically. Realize that if BoL were not strong it would be pretty worthless because the Healer has to contend with cc and cast times, all the while being incapable of doing damage themselves. A nightblade healer on the other hand churns out smaller heals but makes up for it with keeping down solid dps pressure simultaneously and utilizing powerful cc. I think there is a pretty good balance between these two in that regard, and it -should- operate this way.

In the scenario you recently posted, you vs. 2 healers. I really think your only good solution is to have another guy on your team applying cc, and that's a pretty fair assessment. Healers definitely slow down the pacing of the battle (as do people who rez) but I think that is by design. Healing generally won't win the battle but it can certainly make the victory possible or easier, and why shouldn't it?

iamnotweakrwb17_ESO

I wouldn't mind a toggle slot similar to an ultimate slot except it would be universal and obviously only toggle abilities could be slotted there.

dodgehopper_ESO

My views on AOE caps aren't popular. I agree they shouldn't cap AOE, but if I had my way there would be friendly fire and player collision. I realize friendly fire goes against all that most MMORPG players stand for so its not a popular position. I can live with that. I think player collision should exist though. I would love if there were ways to make an effective shield wall. Skills like volley would start to make a lot more sense. Certain ranged skills would need to be given an arc so that you don't take out the front line. etc etc. I think conceptually this would be a cool idea but whether or not its even possible to implement in this game is another thing entirely. Either way I do agree they shouldn't cap AOE. I'm not sure how that benefits the small team though. 30 steel tornados vs. 5 guys won't go well for those 5 guys if we're all bundled together. This is why I like the notion of collision, because the real problem as I view it is that the game systems themselves make bunching up too beneficial (while simultaneously being unrealistic). If there were systems in place that made it favorable to create formations (like shield walls, archer flanks, etc) on the other hand, it would deal with the bunching up problem and likely add a lot of fun to the game.

Soris

@FENGRUSH What you are suggesting is not practical yet it is not logical. Healing should be 1:1 ratio to dmg. You can add up to 2x dmg to your dps by animation cancelling but you can not do extra healing with this way.

Yes it's a numbers game. 2 dps build can easily kill one healer and 2 healer can outheal the dps of one guy. Nothing wrong with it. It is just what it is.

And yes healing is one form of defense along with shields, block etc, just like doing damage is not the only way to kill someone. You have access to various stuns, heal debuff, silence etc. Yet there is a option to increase effectiveness of heal debuffs with CP.

Also keep in mind, dps builds have already more positive sides than a guy who just tries to defend himself. For example as a reminder, you can ignore 50% armor of someone without even trying. Another example, all the defence skills cost 2 times more than dmg skills and things like block dodge etc have strong penalty you know that.

So why don't you use the tools that the game offers to you instead trying to nerf BoL.
You sound like a random guy whining in the zone chat when he fail to l2p.

FENGRUSH

Soris wrote: »

@FENGRUSH What you are suggesting is not practical yet it is not logical. Healing should be 1:1 ratio to dmg. You can add up to 2x dmg to your dps by animation cancelling but you can not do extra healing with this way.

Yes it's a numbers game. 2 dps build can easily kill one healer and 2 healer can outheal the dps of one guy. Nothing wrong with it. It is just what it is.

And yes healing is one form of defense along with shields, block etc, just like doing damage is not the only way to kill someone. You have access to various stuns, heal debuff, silence etc. Yet there is a option to increase effectiveness of heal debuffs with CP.

Also keep in mind, dps builds have already more positive sides than a guy who just tries to defend himself. For example as a reminder, you can ignore 50% armor of someone without even trying. Another example, all the defence skills cost 2 times more than dmg skills and things like block dodge etc have strong penalty you know that.

So why don't you use the tools that the game offers to you instead trying to nerf BoL.
You sound like a random guy whining in the zone chat when he fail to l2p.

We do use the tools the game offers - and theyre much more limited now... thats the whole point. I know its not going to a popular opinion in the templar thread - but saying its a l2p issue... hows that? How is it whining? You talk about animation canceling, ignoring armor all of that.. that is great, that is the given here and what is happening, and it still doesnt outweigh BoL healing. That is the very point of the whole story. A DPS playing at the top of his game gets outweighed by a healer, its poor design. Go ahead and factor in reverb for healing debuff, because thats in the rotation too. Most of the post doesnt really argue anything or add value. Saying I can add 2x dmg by animation canceling (which is a given and occuring) but you cant with healing doesnt matter if the healing still outdoes the damage. Its a testament to how strong the healing is. BoL is faster than WB.

Soris

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

1) Remove the spear theme from Aedric Spear line and make it more like an actual Battle Cleric type deal...blah blah...REMOVE THE SPEAR THEME DAMN IT!

I thank you for bringing this here. Exactly my thoughts. It should have done long time ago. And I wonder if it take some attention...maybe.? I hope

Soris

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Soris wrote: »

@FENGRUSH What you are suggesting is not practical yet it is not logical. Healing should be 1:1 ratio to dmg. You can add up to 2x dmg to your dps by animation cancelling but you can not do extra healing with this way.

Yes it's a numbers game. 2 dps build can easily kill one healer and 2 healer can outheal the dps of one guy. Nothing wrong with it. It is just what it is.

And yes healing is one form of defense along with shields, block etc, just like doing damage is not the only way to kill someone. You have access to various stuns, heal debuff, silence etc. Yet there is a option to increase effectiveness of heal debuffs with CP.

Also keep in mind, dps builds have already more positive sides than a guy who just tries to defend himself. For example as a reminder, you can ignore 50% armor of someone without even trying. Another example, all the defence skills cost 2 times more than dmg skills and things like block dodge etc have strong penalty you know that.

So why don't you use the tools that the game offers to you instead trying to nerf BoL.
You sound like a random guy whining in the zone chat when he fail to l2p.

We do use the tools the game offers - and theyre much more limited now... thats the whole point. I know its not going to a popular opinion in the templar thread - but saying its a l2p issue... hows that? How is it whining? You talk about animation canceling, ignoring armor all of that.. that is great, that is the given here and what is happening, and it still doesnt outweigh BoL healing. That is the very point of the whole story. A DPS playing at the top of his game gets outweighed by a healer, its poor design. Go ahead and factor in reverb for healing debuff, because thats in the rotation too. Most of the post doesnt really argue anything or add value. Saying I can add 2x dmg by animation canceling (which is a given and occuring) but you cant with healing doesnt matter if the healing still outdoes the damage. Its a testament to how strong the healing is. BoL is faster than WB.

Well I wonder how godly that healer you play against. If I can kill templar healers with my templar, you can do so too.

pelennor_fields

Soris wrote: »

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

1) Remove the spear theme from Aedric Spear line and make it more like an actual Battle Cleric type deal...blah blah...REMOVE THE SPEAR THEME DAMN IT!

I thank you for bringing this here. Exactly my thoughts. It should have done long time ago. And I wonder if it take some attention...maybe.? I hope

We will be lucky if they push a few numbers around without causing any damage. I wouldn't look for them to rewrite the animation on the "aedric spear" line. Being it says spear in the title and all.

EgoRush

I love that they are planning to address BoL once again yet completely ignore Honor The Dead. I suppose the quick math I did in my last post basically made them think "BoL is too strong so let's nerf it to the ground so Honor The Dead is viable rather than tweaking the latter morph to bring it up to speed".

Did anyone mention BoL being an issue in this thread until Fengrush started arguing about 1:1 heal:DD issues in PvP (p.s. if you can't take down a Templar spamming BoL then that's more of a resource management issue and/or not targeting enemies appropriately...)? No. So why are ZOS addressing it? This is just like the Blazing Spear double-nerf, no-one complains about it yet they decide to nerf the skill twice.

We have a broken execute ticking for 5K DPS during execute phases at times, yet this is left until the next major update and we're now months into having to deal with a broken skill. Imagine the complains if cloak suddenly decided to stop working at random points and wasn't reliable. There would be uproar and a damn hot fix by now.

Why do ZOS hate on Templars so much? Get a grip and actually read our feedback; we have some amazing people, who have played the game a lot more than your employees, here giving some great suggestions, the majority of which have been consistently ignored for a long time.

iamnotweakrwb17_ESO

He is talking about the cream of the crop. Full CP, full alliance, fully min maxed and operating in a coordinated group.
It's not the typical but it does show what it is capeable of. On that level I absolutely agree with Fengrush however this isn't the time or the place to nerf BOL. The overwhelming majority of people do not fall into the camp of being unkillable gods.

Personally, I think they should fix aoe caps and address some of those champion passives before they even think about touching BOL.

iamnotweakrwb17_ESO

@ Egrorush. Cloak was broken for a very long time so that's probably not the best example

FENGRUSH

I think a lot of templars are a bit too biased to have a civil and reasonable discussion on some of the skills. It is unfortunate.

AfkNinja

FENGRUSH wrote: »

I think a lot of templars are a bit too biased to have a civil and reasonable discussion on some of the skills. It is unfortunate.

It could be that.

I am of the opinion however that you are just as biased. Why do you feel it's not fair for a healer to be able to out heal a dps 1v1? That Templar is doing nothing else while healing and likely devoted his/her whole build to +healing. It sounds to me like you are biased as a DPS and just want easy kills vs Templar's.

It's really easy to point the "biased" finger and discount all our opinions just cause we don't agree with you, I don't feel you are giving fair merit to the arguments presented in opposition to your own.


Edit: Also I feel this discussion has been quite civil.

tazdevil9359

Reorx_Holybeard wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

• Biting Jabs – No 140% bonus on shields
  • If you are fighting a single target, the 140% damage is calculated against that enemy at once. If attacking a shield, the shield does not have mitigation, whereas a player character does. This may be causing some confusion, but in our testing, we found that every hit of this ability was doing the appropriate amount of damage.

I don't really understand the explanation here. If shields have no mitigation shouldn't Biting Jabs have higher damage on shielded opponents? I'm trying to test this but couldn't find anyone in Cyrodiil to test with. If any can test can give some explicit numbers to demonstrate the issue (or lack of) that would be great.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

• Dark Flare – Initial cast has a delay compared to subsequent casts
  • Subsequent casts can appear to be slightly faster if animation cancelling is used. If there are other issues that don’t appear to be tied to this, please let us know.

I did a quick test of chain casting Dark Flare on some mobs and analyzing the video capture frame-by-frame to see if I could duplicate the issue. There was no animation cancelling going on in these tests.

First Cast of Dark Flare:

• 0.00 sec = Skill button press show in UI
• 0.20 = Light appears under character
• 0.35 = Left arm of character stops moving down
• 1.60 = Ball of light appears above character's hand

On Subsequent Casts:

• 0.00 = Ball of light appears above character's hand in last cast
• 0.13 = Light appears under character
• 0.27 = Left arm of character stops moving down
• 1.30 = Ball of light appears above character's h

  FENGRUSH wrote: »

  AfkNinja wrote: »

  FENGRUSH wrote: »

  iamnotweakrwb17_ESO wrote: »

  This games combat is horribly imbalanced.
  
  This is the only game I've played where stupid hard hitting attacks can be spammed and also have hard CC attached to them. This is also the only game I've played where being rooted or snared to the spot is as bad as being hard CCed. I am used to games where CC is used tactically. Whoever designed the combat and let wrecking blow, crystal frags, concealed weapon, etc CC must have been high.
  
  That being said, Templar's are hands down the worst overall class in this game.
  
  Aedric Spear
  
  Puncturing sweep / biting jabs is absolutely useless in PvP. You can be utterly shut down by anyone with a root. All they have to do is root you and step behind you and your ***. You have to cleanse or bleed stamina and pray they don't root you all over again. On top of that, landing the ability in PvP is an absolute nightmare. It "requires" near zero lag. Cyrodil is nothing BUT lag. On top of that, it hands out free CC immunity with a stupid knockback.
  
  Then you have aura of javelin which has a massive 20m range. Destro's knockback is a 36m+ range for crying out land. This wouldn't be so bad but you have to slot "something" or you lose out on piercing spear passive which is the only thing worthwhile in the entire aedric spear tree.
  
  Toppling charge has never worked properly. Even when they claimed to have fixed it, it was still broken. That means you're forced into sword and shield / two-hander if you want to melee and if you're a magic build its too bad so sad. The only thing you are getting is the middle finger. Thanks Zenimax.
  
  Blazing spear is a 1 person CC on a *** weak AOE which actually had its damage nerfed recently even more. It's range sucks and it is a *** to cast from keeps because the ground target won't go where you place it.
  
  Then we have Sun shield which is hands down the most worthless shield in the game. 15% HP shield for an absurdly disproportionate magicka cost. Now I know they are trolling.
  
  Crescent sweep has a 5m radius on an AOE based ultimate which hits for a hell of a lot less than all the other ultimates.
  
  Dawn's wrath
  
  Vampires bane is fire based despite all the other abilities being virtually all magicka. I wouldn't mind it so bad if shields could actually be dotted up.
  
  Dark flares cast time is crippling. It can't be light attack weaved or you have to suffer the full animation constantly. The talent self snares you while casting which is a horrendous flaw in it for PvP.
  
  The Solar barrage AOE morph of solar flare causes your animation to stop completely rendering it useless. This is a real shame because I would probably use it if it didn't do this and hit a little harder.\
  
  Backlash scales off max magicka and not spell power. It can also be purged rendering it useless. Its cap is also pitiful for an attack which is supposed to act as burst damage.
  
  Eclipse is single target and also purgeable.
  
  Radiant oppression is bugged. It also doesn't hit anywhere near as hard as it should. It also self snares your character.
  
  Magicka builds must slot at least 1 dawns wrath ability to proc the illuminate passive. Unfortunately the only ability worth putting on your bar is the execute and its not something you cast at full health.
  
  Nova is an ok ultimate for PvE but horrible for PvP. It has the same issues as dragonknight standard. It's a waste of ultimate.
  
  Restoring light
  
  Honor the dead and breath of life are both good morphs. One is geared for solo play and the other group play. I use both.
  
  Healing ritual is absolutely useless. Its healing radius is horrible. It has a 2 second cast time and it self snares you. Nobody gives a crap that it heals for potentially a lot. It is not a practical talent in a game taht requires dodging and blocking on the fly. This talent more than any other tells me that Zenimax does not actually play their own game.
  
  Radiant aura is rendered utterly useless by the minor and major buffs. The repentance morph is really good though.
  
  Purifying ritual is a good cleanse. Unfortunately you have to stand in it constantly to proc focused healing to buff your healing 30%. This is fine in PvE but horrible in PvP unless you are in a ball group where everyone is stacking in your puddle anyway.
  
  Rune of focus is ok for tanks but horrible for anyone else that actually needs to move around.
  
  The healing ultimate is fine in PvE. It makes a handful of vet dungeons significantly easier. It's garbage for PvP tho as you can still easily be burst down while your locked in its animation.
  
  Summary
  
  Looking through the list, Templar's have a grand total of 4 useful PvP abilities. Those abilities being repentance, honor the dead, breath of life and purifying ritual. Beyond that, all the other abilities are a joke.
  
  Templar's also receive no boost to health magicka or stamina. They have a small boost to weapon damage but none to spell power from balanced warrior. But don't worry.. our resources are in good shape because we get a massive 4% off the cost of magicka, stamina and ultimates!!!!
  
  @FENGRUSH
  
  and you want to nerf our BOL because its obviously the problem right? sigh...

  Hard to take anything serious after reading nova is horrible for PvP . The healing ultimate allows you to be burst down??? What/how?? Rune of focus is OK for tanks?? Horrible when you need to move around?? How or why? The only thing horrible is any magicka templar that wouldnt run rune focus - this skill is amazing and practically free.
  
  
  Anyone can make a thread and complain about the class outwardly. Theres skills that need fixes and skills that arent up to snuff and require buffs - it goes for every class. Theres also skills that are too strong - BoL is the only one Id rate, but this whole thread revolves around how terrible templar is, which is really offbase given the amount of templars youd see nightly in PvP making groups indestructible.
  
  What is worse off than your templar? Magicka DK - nothing is in a worse situation than them. Stam templar isnt as well off due to mechanics changes with jabs. Magicka templar? Has a great place in this game right now. Am I saying its fine and just needs a nerf on one skill? No - but that is how you responded to me adding a point in this thread. Wont get anywhere making comments like that.

  
  How do you expect people to react when you only ask for nerfs? Nowhere in your post did you suggest any changes to anything else, so to a Templar of course it just looks like you're complaining and asking for Nerfs.
  
  If your post had been full of suggestions for the class as a whole as you see it I doubt many of us would have reacted in that manner.
  
  
  P.S. when you wrote "Anyone can make a thread and complain about the class outwardly." this strongly suggested to me that you didn't read the thread. There were tons of constructive posts regarding bugs AND suggestions for positive changes. It wasn't even close to all of us "complaining". I'm not even against toning down BOL, but if they do they need to give us something in return.

  
  Thats refering to a post made - not the thread in total. I agree with changing other things, like making ritual a more feasible heal. Its not templars fault balance is what it is - they make sweeping changes that alter how the game is every huge patch. In 1.6 you could burst someone that didnt take care of themselves and kill them before they could get a heal. I dont actually like this design of killing through targets easy. I prefer a solution where you can still kill people that dont take care of themselves, but you are not countered by healing at a 1:1 ratio. Healing should be a supplement to survival, like CC breaking, dodging, buffing/debuffing. As it stands, BoL can take care of someone that isnt even tabbed into the game for awhile, theres something terribly wrong with that. Healing is out of control, because of the meta swing. It is what it is.
  
  Im not your best source for what to change and honestly... Im kind of done fighting those battles. I fought it for my own class and the end result after months was ZOS said they were going to make changes and gave us a morph of a skill nobody would ever use. I said earlier in this post I strike as gruesome offenders to PvP - such as gap closer spamming, out of control healing, aoe caps etc. Balance is desperately needed for all classes - and small steps are better to take. Instead we will get a meta swing next patch that impacts all classes, and then layered individual changes underneath it on a per class basis that changes thing so drastically the designers have no way of knowing what will happen. The result is were revisiting new problems in a couple months. Round and round we go~

  
  So healing is out of control? but sorcs can zoom away still and nightblades can cc for days!! So for a Templar to be able to heal isnt fair come on now if any class needs to be nerfed it is nightblades the cc it is redicidlous. The supposed imunity that you get doesnt even seem to work when you break free cause as soon as you do your cc again. If it BoL does get nerfed it should only be in cyrodiil not in PVE content! I personally dont see the problem with BoL.

dodgehopper_ESO

FENGRUSH wrote: »

I think a lot of templars are a bit too biased to have a civil and reasonable discussion on some of the skills. It is unfortunate.

It is hard to not be biased after the way the class has been dealt with. Templar has had to deal with bad mechanics and bugs longer than everyone else, including Nightblade whose dog has finally seen his day. I do think people should remain civil though. When the discourse gets strident it becomes impossible for anything productive to get said.

FENGRUSH

AfkNinja wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

I think a lot of templars are a bit too biased to have a civil and reasonable discussion on some of the skills. It is unfortunate.

It could be that.

I am of the opinion however that you are just as biased. Why do you feel it's not fair for a healer to be able to out heal a dps 1v1? That Templar is doing nothing else while healing and likely devoted his/her whole build to +healing. It sounds to me like you are biased as a DPS and just want easy kills vs Templar's.

It's really easy to point the "biased" finger and discount all our opinions just cause we don't agree with you, I don't feel you are giving fair merit to the arguments presented in opposition to your own.


Edit: Also I feel this discussion has been quite civil.

You have been civil - a lot of posts are just saying I have an ego or want the game to be easy. If I wanted it easy, Id ask for something more like 1.6 - because killing people in 1.6 for me was very easy given the burst, and healing wasnt a consideration for a lot of targets. I like longer fights actually, it gives room to play your char, use utility, and do lots of stuff. It makes it harder to kill targets start to finish as well, because theres a lot that can go 'wrong' during that phase. Even when things dont go 'wrong' and I have a window to damage them fully, theyre able to heal through a lot of it - and I think theres an issue with that.

I feel healing is a supplement to survival - CC breaking, dodging, blocking, all of that needs to play into healing. If healing is so strong that it covers players mistakes, skill is taken out and the very fact that a group has <X> healers means theres no bursting, theres no killing, there is just a "Oh they have <X> amount of players, lets just go somewhere else". Thats not how I play or anyone else. Engaging fights you have little chance of winning is great, but those victories come out of the fact that healers just simply stop doing their job - that is the reality. The moment damage dealers overextend from their healer, or the healer thinks nobody needs a heal and just starts trying to beam or something.. A kill can be closed. If he is conscious enough to just pound BoL, the kill wont happen - even if your target is out of stam laying on the ground. Should every target laying on the ground be automatically dead? No - its nice to have emergency healing. But the templar Ive built is extremely durable and can throw out about 30-40 BoLs straight in a row. The speed of BoL healing and its strength just makes everything a bit too easy.

Theres really nothing more to it than that. People disagree, I get it - whatever will you do if your heal is weaker? Well its the same thing with magicka sorcs and their shields - dont nerf them or they dont have a place. I dont disagree entirely, its a delicate thing to handle and solutions arent as simple as just nerf this or buff that value. I dont like how strong sorc shields are, but their options are limited due to how weak they made light armor. It all happened in one patch, and this is the issue you get with wrapping multiple changes in 1 patch. Ive lost most faith in balancing changes coming - or putting forth detailed replies. ZoS doesnt value my PvP opinion despite experience in fighting and wanting to make a well rounded game simply because of my overall demeanor. Get a bit of the same in this thread. It is what it is, but people will continue to leave a game when it becomes dumbed down to numbers. That is where these patches are going. Good chance black desert is going to diminish a substantial amount of the PvP guilds left in ESO from what Ive heard as well.

AfkNinja

FENGRUSH wrote: »

AfkNinja wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

I think a lot of templars are a bit too biased to have a civil and reasonable discussion on some of the skills. It is unfortunate.

It could be that.

I am of the opinion however that you are just as biased. Why do you feel it's not fair for a healer to be able to out heal a dps 1v1? That Templar is doing nothing else while healing and likely devoted his/her whole build to +healing. It sounds to me like you are biased as a DPS and just want easy kills vs Templar's.

It's really easy to point the "biased" finger and discount all our opinions just cause we don't agree with you, I don't feel you are giving fair merit to the arguments presented in opposition to your own.


Edit: Also I feel this discussion has been quite civil.

I feel healing is a supplement to survival - CC breaking, dodging, blocking, all of that needs to play into healing.

I agree, healing is a reactionary defensive mechanism just as shields are a proactive defensive mechanism. I feel however heals need to be slightly stronger than shields due to the reactive nature of a heal.

If healing is so strong that it covers players mistakes, skill is taken out and the very fact that a group has <X> healers means theres no bursting, theres no killing, there is just a "Oh they have <X> amount of players, lets just go somewhere else".

There is a very similar situation going on with SORCS right now, the main difference is they get the same defensive utility with a shield that we do with a heal but they also get crazy dmg to go with it. I agree with your intent though, that PVP should always be about the players skill not which class they chose.

The speed of BoL healing and its strength just makes everything a bit too easy.

I have to disagree with this, you're not supposed to out dps their heals imo, you're supposed to CC and focus them down just like a Sorc. If a Sorc doesn't want to die they can stack 3+ shields and literally laugh in your face while you do nothing.

There's really nothing more to it than that. People disagree, I get it - whatever will you do if your heal is weaker?

Sorcs use this EXACT same argument.

Well its the same thing with magicka sorcs and their shields - dont nerf them or they dont have a place. I dont disagree entirely, its a delicate thing to handle and solutions arent as simple as just nerf this or buff that value. I dont like how strong sorc shields are, but their options are limited due to how weak they made light armor.

Templar has the EXACT same issue as we also wear light armor and have the added penalty of having to actually survive the burst to recover from it.


It all happened in one patch, and this is the issue you get with wrapping multiple changes in 1 patch. Ive lost most faith in balancing changes coming - or putting forth detailed replies. ZoS doesnt value my PvP opinion despite experience in fighting and wanting to make a well rounded game simply because of my overall demeanor.

I agree here, to many large scale changes in these patches. They need to be smaller and more regular. I think in the end we actually both agree on what we want. I would be for toning down heals as long as shields are also toned down and Templar receives other updates to bring us up to par.

I have really enjoyed debating with you, even if our opinions differ at times. I really hope you do not give up on advocating for Stamina Sorc as I am sure you are an inspiration to a lot of people. Each class really needs someone advocating for proper balance and without your input I doubt Stamina sorc would have gotten any changes at all. Don't get discouraged by ZOS ignoring your feedback, sometimes it takes time for people to come around to your/our way of seeing things.

ZOS can ignore all my feedback, I will still keep giving it though.

Ashamray

Bah, stop writing walls of text. ><
Be laconic.

Soris

iamnotweakrwb17_ESO wrote: »

He is talking about the cream of the crop. Full CP, full alliance, fully min maxed and operating in a coordinated group.
It's not the typical but it does show what it is capeable of. On that level I absolutely agree with Fengrush however this isn't the time or the place to nerf BOL. The overwhelming majority of people do not fall into the camp of being unkillable gods.

Personally, I think they should fix aoe caps and address some of those champion passives before they even think about touching BOL.

I understand that but put a stamina nb or stamina dk build in the place of this level of healer build and you get the same result power vise.

FENGRUSH wrote: »

AfkNinja wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

I think a lot of templars are a bit too biased to have a civil and reasonable discussion on some of the skills. It is unfortunate.

It could be that.

I am of the opinion however that you are just as biased. Why do you feel it's not fair for a healer to be able to out heal a dps 1v1? That Templar is doing nothing else while healing and likely devoted his/her whole build to +healing. It sounds to me like you are biased as a DPS and just want easy kills vs Templar's.

It's really easy to point the "biased" finger and discount all our opinions just cause we don't agree with you, I don't feel you are giving fair merit to the arguments presented in opposition to your own.


Edit: Also I feel this discussion has been quite civil.

You have been civil - a lot of posts are just saying I have an ego or want the game to be easy. If I wanted it easy, Id ask for something more like 1.6 - because killing people in 1.6 for me was very easy given the burst, and healing wasnt a consideration for a lot of targets. I like longer fights actually, it gives room to play your char, use utility, and do lots of stuff. It makes it harder to kill targets start to finish as well, because theres a lot that can go 'wrong' during that phase. Even when things dont go 'wrong' and I have a window to damage them fully, theyre able to heal through a lot of it - and I think theres an issue with that.

I feel healing is a supplement to survival - CC breaking, dodging, blocking, all of that needs to play into healing. If healing is so strong that it covers players mistakes, skill is taken out and the very fact that a group has <X> healers means theres no bursting, theres no killing, there is just a "Oh they have <X> amount of players, lets just go somewhere else". Thats not how I play or anyone else. Engaging fights you have little chance of winning is great, but those victories come out of the fact that healers just simply stop doing their job - that is the reality. The moment damage dealers overextend from their healer, or the healer thinks nobody needs a heal and just starts trying to beam or something.. A kill can be closed. If he is conscious enough to just pound BoL, the kill wont happen - even if your target is out of stam laying on the ground. Should every target laying on the ground be automatically dead? No - its nice to have emergency healing. But the templar Ive built is extremely durable and can throw out about 30-40 BoLs straight in a row. The speed of BoL healing and its strength just makes everything a bit too easy.

Theres really nothing more to it than that. People disagree, I get it - whatever will you do if your heal is weaker? Well its the same thing with magicka sorcs and their shields - dont nerf them or they dont have a place. I dont disagree entirely, its a delicate thing to handle and solutions arent as simple as just nerf this or buff that value. I dont like how strong sorc shields are, but their options are limited due to how weak they made light armor. It all happened in one patch, and this is the issue you get with wrapping multiple changes in 1 patch. Ive lost most faith in balancing changes coming - or putting forth detailed replies. ZoS doesnt value my PvP opinion despite experience in fighting and wanting to make a well rounded game simply because of my overall demeanor. Get a bit of the same in this thread. It is what it is, but people will continue to leave a game when it becomes dumbed down to numbers. That is where these patches are going. Good chance black desert is going to diminish a substantial amount of the PvP guilds left in ESO from what Ive heard as well.

I dont want the discussion going but that ego and easy game part you mentioned is certainly you cant find it in here, at least not in my posts.

Anyways, BoL heal is meant to be strong as its raw cost is about 4k magicka which is 2 times more than a whatever dmg skill and it should heal accordingly.

As you already stated, such healer builds are extremely durable that can throw out about 40 BoLs in a row. This is not a problem specific to templars nor BoL nor anything related to the class itself. It is the end result of the unlimited resources through the CP system. You point your finger at the wrong direction therefore I find this discussion is pointless.